From: owner-good-noise-digest@smoe.org (good-noise-digest) To: good-noise-digest@smoe.org Subject: good-noise-digest V1 #19 Reply-To: good-noise@smoe.org Sender: owner-good-noise-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-good-noise-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk good-noise-digest Saturday, October 3 1998 Volume 01 : Number 019 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Gorka live [Chris Thorpe ] Re: Gorka live [ThePsyche@aol.com] Re: Gorka live [Susan Krauss ] Re: Gorka live [Anne Nugent ] Re: Gorka live [Chris Thorpe ] Re: Gorka live [Jay Votel ] Re: dilemma -- and CDs for sale at shows? [Jay Votel ] Live tape [James Filkins ] A Bootleg is a Bootleg (longish post) [ThePsyche@aol.com] Re: dilemma -- and CDs for sale at shows? ["Jeff Orth" Subject: Gorka live - ----- Bounced Message ----- Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 21:39:50 +0000 From: James Filkins To: good-noise@smoe.org Subject: Gorka live To all interested, I have a good quality recording of John Gorka live from 1995. It was rebroadcast on an NPR station. The show was just prior to the release of Between 5 & 7. Sound quality and banter inbetween songs are vintage Gorka. I am willing to trade copies of the tape if anyone is interested. J.D.F ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 14:00:47 EDT From: ThePsyche@aol.com Subject: Re: Gorka live Bootlegs? No thanks. This topic has come up on another email list I am on. I don't even know if trading in recorded radio broadcasts counts as a bootleg.......does it? It is hard enough to make a living being a "Folk Song Boy" without having your music bootlegged. Just my 2 cents. Adios, Bryn ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 11:47:22 -0700 From: Susan Krauss Subject: Re: Gorka live At 02:00 PM 10/2/98 -0400, ThePsyche@aol.com wrote: >Bootlegs? >No thanks. >This topic has come up on another email list I am on. I don't even know if >trading in recorded radio broadcasts counts as a bootleg.......does it? >It is hard enough to make a living being a "Folk Song Boy" without having your >music bootlegged. >Just my 2 cents. Well I have a different point of view. Everyone I know who collects tapes buys every item of that artist so there's no loss of money there. And I'm sure that most singers know that folks tape stuff off the radio - that's a different ball of wax and not really a bootleg. susan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 14:59:08 -0400 From: Anne Nugent Subject: Re: Gorka live ThePsyche@aol.com wrote: > > Bootlegs? > > No thanks. > > This topic has come up on another email list I am on. I don't even know if > trading in recorded radio broadcasts counts as a bootleg.......does it? > > It is hard enough to make a living being a "Folk Song Boy" without having your > music bootlegged. > > Just my 2 cents. > > Adios, Bryn Applause! I agree! Mr. Gorka (and all other hard-working indie performers) deserve amazing amounts of credit, financial and otherwise, for their hard work. Not only is what you speak of a crime, but it robs performers who could MOST use it of their livelyhood. Anne - -- -^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^ "I am somehow less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops." -- Stephen Jay Gould -^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 15:29:09 -0400 From: Chris Thorpe Subject: Re: Gorka live I think we are mixing apples and oranges here. The guy who posted the original message wanted to trade a show he taped from a radio broadcast. Bootlegs, radio broadcasts, and live tapes are three different things completely. Bootlegs are almost universally considered bad. They are an attempt to profit from an artist's work, and are illegal. The exception that proves the rule is that Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows, supports bootlegs. Radio broadcast can be freely taped by anyone, in the broadcast range. Trading these is not illegal, have you ever taped a tv show and loaned a copy to a friend? Tapes of live shows muddy up the waters a good bit. Many bands (Phish, Allman Brothers, Dave Matthews) strongly encourage people to tape and trade their shows. They figure the more people that experience their music the more they will sell. Other bands are opposed to taping, and should not be traded. Anyone know if John has an official taping policy? - -- chris at 02:59 PM 10/2/98 -0400, you wrote: >ThePsyche@aol.com wrote: >> >> Bootlegs? >> >> No thanks. >> >> This topic has come up on another email list I am on. I don't even know if >> trading in recorded radio broadcasts counts as a bootleg.......does it? >> >> It is hard enough to make a living being a "Folk Song Boy" without having your >> music bootlegged. >> >> Just my 2 cents. >> >> Adios, Bryn > >Applause! I agree! Mr. Gorka (and all other hard-working indie >performers) deserve amazing amounts of credit, financial and otherwise, >for their hard work. Not only is what you speak of a crime, but it robs >performers who could MOST use it of their livelyhood. > > Anne >-- > -^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^ > > "I am somehow less interested in the weight and convolutions > of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of > equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and > sweatshops." -- Stephen Jay Gould > > -^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^ > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 16:09:57 -0400 From: Jay Votel Subject: Re: Gorka live Hello everyone: As one who trades and collects "concert tapes" from artists such as Bob Dylan and the Grateful Dead, I have to agree with Chris. These items are not bootlegs, although they are commonly mislabeled as such. They do not harm the artist in any way. Those of us who collect these tapes also buy the studio products too -- often more than once. It is just that we can't get enough of the good music these people perform. There are songs John sings that haven't been recorded. He does cover versions of songs that don't appear on any of his albums. Sometimes he sings with other artists in concert who don't appear on his albums and the versions of these songs are different. The free trading of these tapes -- for private collections and not for profit -- does in no way take away any income from the artists. Real bootlegs, the counterfeit versions of the studio albums, are an entirely different matter and they are illegal and, in my view, immoral. They amount to theft because someone is profiting from them who is not the artist. In response to the other question, I don't know if John has a taping policy, but I know that in several of the concerts I have attended, the no-taping, no-photography rules were posted. - -- Jay Votel Chris Thorpe wrote: > I think we are mixing apples and oranges here. > The guy who posted the original message wanted > to trade a show he taped from a radio broadcast. > Bootlegs, radio broadcasts, and live tapes are > three different things completely. > > Bootlegs are almost universally considered bad. > They are an attempt to profit from an artist's > work, and are illegal. The exception that proves > the rule is that Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows, > supports bootlegs. > > Radio broadcast can be freely taped by anyone, > in the broadcast range. Trading these is not > illegal, have you ever taped a tv show and > loaned a copy to a friend? > > Tapes of live shows muddy up the waters a good bit. > Many bands (Phish, Allman Brothers, Dave Matthews) > strongly encourage people to tape and trade > their shows. They figure the more people that > experience their music the more they will sell. > Other bands are opposed to taping, and should > not be traded. > > Anyone know if John has an official taping policy? > > -- chris > > at 02:59 PM 10/2/98 -0400, you wrote: > >ThePsyche@aol.com wrote: > >> > >> Bootlegs? > >> > >> No thanks. > >> > >> This topic has come up on another email list I am on. I don't even know if > >> trading in recorded radio broadcasts counts as a bootleg.......does it? > >> > >> It is hard enough to make a living being a "Folk Song Boy" without > having your > >> music bootlegged. > >> > >> Just my 2 cents. > >> > >> Adios, Bryn > > > >Applause! I agree! Mr. Gorka (and all other hard-working indie > >performers) deserve amazing amounts of credit, financial and otherwise, > >for their hard work. Not only is what you speak of a crime, but it robs > >performers who could MOST use it of their livelyhood. > > > > Anne > >-- > > -^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^ > > > > "I am somehow less interested in the weight and convolutions > > of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of > > equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and > > sweatshops." -- Stephen Jay Gould > > > > -^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^ > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 16:15:50 -0400 From: Jay Votel Subject: Re: dilemma -- and CDs for sale at shows? Hello again everyone: Chris, John usually sells CDs at his shows and I'm upset because I ordered mine Monday from Red House and it isn't in the mail so I won't be able to get him to sign it for me. Solution ... Buy one at the show, get him to autograph it. As for the one from Red House? *s* Instant Christmas present for someone I truly care for... As for Richard Shindell ... the guy at Red House told me that he, Dar Williams and Lucy Kaplansky have one due out this month as a trio. Sounds like a winner. I think they offer a discount if you buy two, so Kevin, call Red House and order. - -- Jay Votel Chris Thorpe wrote: > I don't have John's new CD so I can't compare it to > Richard's "Reunion Hill". I will say that "Reunion Hill" > is a great CD. Richard Shindell has a way of telling > stories in his songs that make them seem very real. > > I am seeing John on Saturday, and was wondering if > John typically sells his CDs at his shows? I am hoping > to get his latest CD this way. > > -- chris > > Kevin F. Rent wrote: > > > Hi... I know it will probably be a while before John's new cd hits > > stores > > but as people have been saying... Red House has been selling them > > direct > > via mail order right away... so my dilemma is this... > > > > I've been looking to buy an album by someone I know virtually nothing > > about... Richard Shindell... I've been thinking about ordering Reunion > > > > Hill. But I'm not sure whether I should spend the money *with ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 16:38:24 +0000 From: James Filkins Subject: Live tape To all those offended by my attempt to trade the John Gorka Live tape........ I did not offer this tape for SALE!!!!! I simply though someone might want to enjoy the music and would trade something in kind with me....you know turn each other on to some new music. I apologize if I offended anyone's sense of right or wrong. I am a freelance writer and feel strongly about the copyright issue. This trading, by the way, does quite a bit to increase sales of performers music....it is called word of mouth( or music to the ear, if you will). For example, have you ever let a friend listen to a John Gorka CD???? Did a few of them go out and buy the CD??? See how it works. I would also be willing to bet that most of you make the occasional tape that you lend out of Gorka's CD's....hey that's a crime...as is taping his Cd's for your own personal use...like in the car for instance, ......read the copyright info. on your cd's folks. Let's be a little more realistic and discerning before we kill the messenger here. The sales of John Gorka's music I have helped create by playing this live tape to friends and acquaintances is pretty impressive. Not to mention the people who have bought countless tickets because they wanted to experience the real thing at one of his shows. If trading this live tape, recorded off the radio is a crime than we are all in real trouble. JDF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 17:40:08 +0000 From: James Filkins Subject: Live tape Okay folks here is the scoop- I checked with John Gorka's Label (red House Records) and they told me that since I recorded it off the radio and the air waves are free....no problem unless I make lots of copies or sell them. But just to appease those who might be offended I will simply enjoy the tape and share it with a chosen few. I didn't mean to stir up a hornet's nest. JDF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 17:38:26 EDT From: ThePsyche@aol.com Subject: A Bootleg is a Bootleg (longish post) JDF wrote: << Let's be a little more realistic and discerning before we kill the messenger here. >> Since I made the first *negative* post concerning trading tapes, I want to apologize if you thought I was killing the messenger. I did not think I did that, I only posted my opinion and did not attack you. After reading what you all wrote, I still stick to my POV. I do understand about sharing John's music with family and friends. For most folk artists, it is the word of mouth marketing that makes or breaks them. I guess I don't see the apples and oranges analogy since trading tapes is what you asked about. Bootleg means to deal in unautohorized items illicitly. Trading or selling is all the same to me. I have attended many of John's shows and heard songs not yet recorded and would L O V E to have them on tape but I *choose* not to in support of John (and other artists like him) who has not authorized the recording of his shows, even if it was only for personal, private use. I guess it comes down to a philisophical point of view. I tend to follow the *do what's right* policy in all my daily living. I guess that this is what is right for me. To each his own. But if this is a public forum to support John Gorka and his music, then maybe the disscussion of or the trading of bootlegs should be done privately. I will say one last thing about the issue, it sure brought alot of us Gorkanatics out of the woodwork. I am glad you all feel passionatley enough to share your opinions. I enjoy reading them. Adios, Bryn ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 17:59:44 -0500 From: "Jeff Orth" Subject: Re: dilemma -- and CDs for sale at shows? Non Gorka related. Those three are going to be in concert together in Lawrence Kansas in January (along with Cry Cry Cry ????). Kansas being the hotbed of culture it is I've already laid plans. They may have several dates together during that time. JeffO - -----Original Message----- From: Jay Votel To: Chris Thorpe Cc: good-noise@smoe.org Date: Friday, October 02, 1998 15:29 PM Subject: Re: dilemma -- and CDs for sale at shows? Hello again everyone: Chris, John usually sells CDs at his shows and I'm upset because I ordered mine Monday from Red House and it isn't in the mail so I won't be able to get him to sign it for me. Solution ... Buy one at the show, get him to autograph it. As for the one from Red House? *s* Instant Christmas present for someone I truly care for... As for Richard Shindell ... the guy at Red House told me that he, Dar Williams and Lucy Kaplansky have one due out this month as a trio. Sounds like a winner. I think they offer a discount if you buy two, so Kevin, call Red House and order. - -- Jay Votel Chris Thorpe wrote: > I don't have John's new CD so I can't compare it to > Richard's "Reunion Hill". I will say that "Reunion Hill" > is a great CD. Richard Shindell has a way of telling > stories in his songs that make them seem very real. > > I am seeing John on Saturday, and was wondering if > John typically sells his CDs at his shows? I am hoping > to get his latest CD this way. > > -- chris > > Kevin F. Rent wrote: > > > Hi... I know it will probably be a while before John's new cd hits > > stores > > but as people have been saying... Red House has been selling them > > direct > > via mail order right away... so my dilemma is this... > > > > I've been looking to buy an album by someone I know virtually nothing > > about... Richard Shindell... I've been thinking about ordering Reunion > > > > Hill. But I'm not sure whether I should spend the money *with ------------------------------ End of good-noise-digest V1 #19 *******************************