From: owner-full-fledged-strangers-digest@smoe.org (full-fledged-strangers-digest) To: full-fledged-strangers-digest@smoe.org Subject: full-fledged-strangers-digest V4 #21 Reply-To: full-fledged-strangers@smoe.org Sender: owner-full-fledged-strangers-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-full-fledged-strangers-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk full-fledged-strangers-digest Sunday, February 18 2001 Volume 04 : Number 021 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Does anyone NOT like it?? [Jim DeFord ] Re: Napster [Jim DeFord ] Ripped Off Response [diamondmask@juno.com] Re: Napster [Roderick Montgomery ] Re: Napster [Jim DeFord ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 08:16:33 -0800 From: Jim DeFord Subject: Re: Does anyone NOT like it?? I listened to it the first night I got it one time. I was going to do a headphone listen, but never got the time. I burnt a copy to play in my truck and have had it in there all week. I don't get into analyzing my music too much as I just like to be entertained. I don't need to understand every syllable and where 'her head was at' when she wrote whatever song, so I will not give that type of a review. Linger is an awesome start to this CD and this tune sticks with me. In fact, the second time I listened to it. it already felt like a friend. The first listen was off the cuff and I didn't really listen that close, but subsequent listens already had me singing along with some of the tunes. Yup. There's a lot of production on this one, but I think it's mistake to try and compare this CD with previous stuff. When I first became a fan, I got Ten Cent Wings at the suggestion of my brother. Immediately liked her. Then, after seeing her live...It was true love. ;-) That really made her music mean so much more to me. It was then I made comments here (actually it was Dog-Dreams then) about the album being over-produced. Wow! That raised a few hairs from some members. ;-) I like the (over) production on this record. This CD *really* shows the wide diversity and talent that Jonatha truly has. From Techno-pop, to (almost) rap, to the around-the-fireplace ballad, to the hardness of a wailing guitar, to the awesome vocals and the funky beat of 'Out of your mind.' She has grown so much, musically and her voice is just....Well...(hard to find words here) just incredible. Can hardly wait to see her live... - -Jim At 11:37 PM 2/14/2001, you wrote: >Being in England, it's taking me longer to get my copy, but no one so far >has indicated that they *don't* like it ... > >Is this true? > >dkb - ---------------------------------------------------------- HELP! owner-full-fledged-strangers@smoe.org Send mail to full-fledged-strangers@smoe.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 08:28:26 -0800 From: Jim DeFord Subject: Re: Napster Well. The fact is that file-sharing is here to stay -- and was here long before Napster -- and will always be part of the Internet in one form or another. And another fact is that the entire Steady Pull CD is now available on Napster and probably was the first day of release, including the Borders-Bonus tracks. I agree that artists should get paid for their work, but the consumer should get value for their money. Jonatha made a deal with Border's for a special release CD and that's a good thing to promote herself, but at what cost? Now, a lot of us fans feel betrayed because of it. Slapped in the face. We spent good money, way more than if we just went to XXX Records and bought it off the shelf, but yes we do have an autographed version. But, people who are seeing her at the mini-concerts are getting the Borders version signed also. So, now we either order the Borders version online (I did), buy it in their store, thereby increasing our investment in this one CD to almost $40, or we run off to the Napster-type servers and snag those three songs in just a few minutes and call it good. It's stuff like this that created Napster. It's disheartening when we walk into the music store and see CD's at $almost $20 a pop, or $14 on sale. The RIAA needs to look at themselves and claim the fact that they enemy is us (meaning themselves). It was they who created Napster. Not us. I am not defending whether Napster is right or wrong -- Sharing or stealing. That is highly debatable. Roderick Montgomery said: >When you purchase a CD, you do not own the music therein -- you are >licensed to hold, but do not own, the music. Playing your CD for a >non-paying friend is completely legal, so how is playing it through your >computer to a distant friend any different? The friend does not get to >enjoy the product you purchased, only the music -- which is art anyway. I find that a weak argument, but don't flame me yet, Roderick. ;-) When we make songs available on Napster-type servers, we are not placing them there for other people to play, or listen to. They are downloading an almost perfect replica of the song that we purchased the rights to hold, not to give away to the world. And they can play that same song time after time after time. They can burn it to a CD and then they can give it/share it with others, without them having purchased the rights to hold it. But, I love being able to share music like this. I have bought plenty of CD's because of what I have downloaded from share-servers and the music industry has not suffered some big financial trauma because of it and their sales were up. If the RIAA doesn't wise up, there will be an even larger revolution in the fray. This just proves how much power we have as consumers. - -Jim At 09:47 AM 2/16/2001, you wrote: >Granted, there's been a whole lot said about Napster and I won't pretend to >have anything new to contribute to the ethical debate raging across the >world. Nevertheless, this prickly situation with Jonatha has sparked an >idea which makes me think twice. > >Given: > 1. Artists should be paid for their work. > 2. Napster is the definition of stealing. > >Those things out of the way, I can't possibly justify downloading all of >Steady Pull (ie. not buying the album). BUT at the same time, I don't live >in America, which means I can't rightly walk into a Border's and buy the CD >very easily. Purchasing online is the best option, second only to picking >it up on a trip overseas (an expensive cab ride to the record store, to be >sure). > >That said, those three tracks not included with the album (the one sold >online) now becomes extremely difficult for me to get and -- more >importantly -- not a part of the commercial album available to me. > >Do I now have legitimate ethical grounds to search Napster for these songs, >songs which are otherwise unavailable to me? What about songs no longer in >print by artists aside from Jonatha? > >ps. Whoever goes to the next show, please tell the list if she addresses the >whole 3 songs deal ... oh Jo, how could you? > >dkb > >**************************************************************************** >This email and any files or other attachments transmitted with it are >confidential and may be legally privileged and are intended solely for the >use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. This >communication represents the originator's personal views and opinions, which >do not necessarily reflect those of rivals.net or its subsidiary companies. >If you are not the intended recipient be advised that you have received this >email in error and should delete this message and any attachments from your >system and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of >this email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error >please telephone or email the sender, or email postmaster@rivals.net >---------------------------------------------------------- >HELP! owner-full-fledged-strangers@smoe.org >Send mail to full-fledged-strangers@smoe.org - ---------------------------------------------------------- HELP! owner-full-fledged-strangers@smoe.org Send mail to full-fledged-strangers@smoe.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 11:31:51 -0800 From: diamondmask@juno.com Subject: Ripped Off Response I got the same sort of reply from the managment. I didn't respond so I didn't know about Jonatha's statement to be made. What they did makes business sense. This is a short term deal, only so many CD's, which of course means I have to go out and buy one. Perhaps the reason he didn't want his response to the list was in regards to the 3 extra tracks. I won't do it here. I'll be interested in reading Jonatha's post. Also, I'm going to see JK in Seattle Sunday with Peter Mulvay. (Did anyone here know of his guitar being stolen last year? Or was that posted here with the URL?) Record labels. Gotta love 'em huh? john isn sumner wa ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - ---------------------------------------------------------- HELP! owner-full-fledged-strangers@smoe.org Send mail to full-fledged-strangers@smoe.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 16:50:16 -0600 (CST) From: Roderick Montgomery Subject: Re: Napster On Sat, 17 Feb 2001, Jim DeFord wrote: > Roderick Montgomery said: > >When you purchase a CD, you do not own the music therein -- you are > >licensed to hold, but do not own, the music. Playing your CD for a > >non-paying friend is completely legal, so how is playing it through your > >computer to a distant friend any different? The friend does not get to > >enjoy the product you purchased, only the music -- which is art anyway. > > I find that a weak argument, but don't flame me yet, Roderick. ;-) Funny, I agree with you -- but it's a weak assertion in the first place to equate the sharing of art with the theft of it. Any rebuttal of such a preposterous claim would sound equally strange. I further agree that Napster in particular (it brought simple file sharing to the masses) has only boosted sales... except, of course, for music that is out of print or otherwise unavailable. Just as the MPAA fought VCRs and then realized a HUGE new market in video sales, the RIAA will eventually find that the customer is right on digital media, too. I admit that I'm different from other consumers, but I buy a CD for many reasons beyond its musical content -- I'm a liner-note addict, I appreciate good cover design, and I enjoy knowing that I'm supporting the artist (along with the music finance and marketing industry that brought it to me). An MP3 offers none of those things, but might drive me to go purchase the entire package as has happened many times before. Buying a CD, particularly an autographed one, provides me a souvenir, a tiny tangible token of that artist -- and most would admit that today's listeners are sold an "image," a "package," not just the recorded music. rm - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Roderick Montgomery rod@dinkdonk.com the fool stands only to fall, but the wise trip on grace... [Sarah Masen] - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---------------------------------------------------------- HELP! owner-full-fledged-strangers@smoe.org Send mail to full-fledged-strangers@smoe.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 19:53:45 -0800 From: Jim DeFord Subject: Re: Napster Very well said and I agree wholeheartedly, Roderick. I definitely prefer to buy my CD's and own the full version of the music. These share-servers have been helpful in collecting (ahem) unauthorized releases and out of print music. I personally don't collect a lot of this stuff, but I got pretty active when I discovered several hundred bootleg Beatles songs out there. But, that's a whole nuther thread. ;-) Here's the latest and greatest on Napster: They soon will institute software that will 'add-on' to all MP3's 'traded', code that will prevent the downloader of said MP3's from burning them to a CD. Until some hacker writes a removal patch about 15 minutes later! ;-) - -Jim At 02:50 PM 2/17/2001, Roderick Montgomery wrote: >On Sat, 17 Feb 2001, Jim DeFord wrote: > >> Roderick Montgomery said: >> >When you purchase a CD, you do not own the music therein -- you are >> >licensed to hold, but do not own, the music. Playing your CD for a >> >non-paying friend is completely legal, so how is playing it through your >> >computer to a distant friend any different? The friend does not get to >> >enjoy the product you purchased, only the music -- which is art anyway. >> >> I find that a weak argument, but don't flame me yet, Roderick. ;-) > >Funny, I agree with you -- but it's a weak assertion in the first place to >equate the sharing of art with the theft of it. Any rebuttal of such a >preposterous claim would sound equally strange. > >I further agree that Napster in particular (it brought simple file sharing >to the masses) has only boosted sales... except, of course, for music that >is out of print or otherwise unavailable. Just as the MPAA fought VCRs and >then realized a HUGE new market in video sales, the RIAA will eventually >find that the customer is right on digital media, too. > >I admit that I'm different from other consumers, but I buy a CD for many >reasons beyond its musical content -- I'm a liner-note addict, I >appreciate good cover design, and I enjoy knowing that I'm supporting the >artist (along with the music finance and marketing industry that brought >it to me). An MP3 offers none of those things, but might drive me to go >purchase the entire package as has happened many times before. > >Buying a CD, particularly an autographed one, provides me a souvenir, a >tiny tangible token of that artist -- and most would admit that today's >listeners are sold an "image," a "package," not just the recorded music. > >rm >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Roderick Montgomery rod@dinkdonk.com >the fool stands only to fall, but the wise trip on grace... [Sarah Masen] >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >---------------------------------------------------------- >HELP! owner-full-fledged-strangers@smoe.org >Send mail to full-fledged-strangers@smoe.org - ---------------------------------------------------------- HELP! owner-full-fledged-strangers@smoe.org Send mail to full-fledged-strangers@smoe.org ------------------------------ End of full-fledged-strangers-digest V4 #21 ******************************************* ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- This has been a posting from full-fledged-strangers-digest For help send e-mail to owner-full-fledged-strangers@smoe.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------------