From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V19 #9 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Monday, January 31 2011 Volume 19 : Number 009 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Plagiarism? [hssmrg@bath.ac.uk] Re: fegmaniax-digest V19 #7 [2fs ] Re: Plagiarism? [2fs ] Re: Plagiarism? [Jeremy Osner ] re: "Plagiarists we know and love" [M Holden ] re: "Plagiarists we know and love" [grutness@slingshot.co.nz] Re: "Plagiarists we know and love" [Harold Lepidus ] Re: "Plagiarists we know and love" [2fs ] Re: fegmaniax-digest V19 #7 [2fs ] I may have turned a corner in my "The King Is Dead" listening. ["John B. ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 15:04:11 +0000 From: hssmrg@bath.ac.uk Subject: Plagiarism? There was a Radio 4 programme last week introduced by the Guy Garvey, the songwriter from Elbow, about 'borrowings' in songs: http://tinyurl.com/6f45cv7 (probably only available in the UK for the remainder of this week). The examples he gave were that he wrote a line "kiss me like a final meal" which turned out to be unconsciously borrowed from a from a song by Howe Gelb - who, when Guy confessed, said 'buy me a beer when you see me and we'll say no more about it'. A second example was: "We've got the bullets but there's no-one there to shoot" was used by I Am Klute who stole it from Roddy Frame. There was then an inconclusive discussion during which the way the Beach Boyes 'Surfin USA' used a Chuck Berry tune and the 'He's So Fine / My Sweet Lord' case figured heavily, about how much of a tune or a lyric had to be used before it constituted plagiarism. I haven't heard this Buddy song, but it sounds to me as if RH might well have a good case. - - Mike Godwin ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 09:57:12 -0600 From: 2fs Subject: Re: fegmaniax-digest V19 #7 On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 3:32 AM, wrote: > On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 10:21 AM, < >> grutness@slingshot.co.nz> wrote: >> >> >> Any other modern examples of this phenomenon? >> >> >> Have a listen to Billy Bragg's song "Ideology" sometime. >> >> >> True, but that one *is* a lot closer to the "folk idiom", at least in >> practice (as Jeff noted, it's not really "folk music" in the purest sense, >> but it's certainly part of that continuum). And there really is hardly any >> such thing as an "obscure" Dylan song... at least on the level of "Flesh >> Number One", which although it's probably on one of Robyn's best selling >> records is actually completely out of print and has been for probably 15 >> years or so. >> >> -Rex >> > > okaaay - well how about Eno's "Taking tiger Mountain" and the VU's "Lisa > says"? > Uh...some similarity of mood, descending (but different) chord progressions...that's about it? I really don't hear this one as even an indirect influence...more like "similar mood" is about it. To me, there are several degrees of influence...ranging from plagiarism on down. Some examples: Plagiarism (where there are many, many, many similarities verging on identity, and no sense that we're dealing with an homage, allusion, or quotation) the "Buddy" song serves as a fine example if you ask me. Copycat songs: the mid-sixties is full of this, often from the same act: the next couple Kinks singles after "You Really Got Me" are obvious attempts to rewrite that song; and the sequencing of King Crimson's second album is slavishly similar to that of the first. Or you have all those songs in the wake of the Doobie Brothers' "What a Fool Believes" with the exact same rhythmic/harmonic profile as that song's keyboard part, most obviously in terms of rip-off Robbie Dupree's "Hotrod Hearts." The aforementioned homage, allusion, or quotation: most hip-hop sampling falls into this category, as do Zappa's numerous musical quotations...usually, this isn't an entire song but moments in a song. Accidental similarities: Most popular music exists within a fairly confined harmonic and rhythmic vocabulary. There are loads of set chord sequences, rhythmic devices, etc....and it's inevitable that writers will stumble upon similar combinations. On Facebook I think it was one of us that posted a link to a ukulele ensemble's version of Bowie's "Life on Mars?" that, halfway through, interwove vocal lines from several other popular songs over similar chord sequences. (That they had to really contort a few of the melodies to deal with Bowie's variations on those chord sequences is one measure of Bowie's originality, in fact.) In many cases of the songs James lists below, I haven't heard one or both songs...but in the ones where I know both, it seems most often to be that fourth, "accidental" category that applies, sometimes the third. (The R.E.M./Cohen one is actually acknowledged in the notes to that album: Cohen receives a writing credit. That, of course, is a fifth category ... a semi-cover, with full acknowledgement and credit given!) The Zevon/Dylan one is another category: common influence. Both were trying to use acoustic Spanish-guitar leads to evoke "Mexican-ness" (the rhythmic and, to an extent, harmonic profiles of the songs work similarly). It wouldn't be ncessary for Zevon to know Dylan's song to have arranged his song that way (although of course Zevon would have known Dylan's song). > > I've got a list I keep called "Plagiarists we know and love" where I keep > ntrack of some of the more obvious and less obvious or more > "inferential"/"homage" ones. Here are some for your perusal: > > Clear and present: > *Beck - Fuckin' with my head <---> Rolling Stones - The last time > *The Enemy (UK) - Don't break the red tape <---> The Clash - London calling > *Marilyn Manson - Rock is dead <---> David Bowie - Jean Genie > *Shonen Knife - Riding on the rocket <---> The Who - Boris the spider > > Strong influence: > *The Arcade Fire - Neighborhood 2 (Laika) <---> Talking Heads - Cities > *Nic Armstrong - Down home girl <---> Donovan - Sunshine Superman > *Babyshambles - I wish <---> The Clash - Jimmy Jazz > *Bangles - Restless <---> Zombies - It's alright with me > *Bob Geldof - A gospel song <---> Van Morrison - Northern muse (Solid > ground) > *Gomez - These three sins <---> Buffalo Springfield - Pay the price > *Magick Heads - Mystery train <---> Triffids - Tarillup bridge > *REM - Hope <---> Leonard Cohen - Suzanne > *Rolling Stones - Memo from Turner <---> Bob Dylan - Stuck inside of Mobile > *Sex Pistols - Submission <---> Kinks - All day and all of the night > *Sneaky Feelings - Amnesia <---> Velvet Underground - Rock and Roll > *Pete Townshend - White City fighting <---> Roy Harper - Hope > *UK -Rendezvous 6:02 <---> Nick Drake - Way to blue > *You am I - Baby clothes <---> David Bowie - Suffragette city > *Warren Zevon - Carmelita <---> Bob Dylan - Desolation Row > > Channeling other groups: > *Colder - Crazy love <---> channelling Joy Division > *Primal Scream - Little death <---> channelling Barrett-era Pink Floyd > > > James > -- > James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand > -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.- > =-.-=-.-=-.- You talk to me as if from a distance .-=-.-=-.-=-. > -=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time .-=- > .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= > - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.wordpress.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 10:02:33 -0600 From: 2fs Subject: Re: Plagiarism? On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 9:04 AM, wrote: > There was a Radio 4 programme last week introduced by the Guy Garvey, the > songwriter from Elbow, about 'borrowings' in songs: > http://tinyurl.com/6f45cv7 > (probably only available in the UK for the remainder of this week). > > The examples he gave were that he wrote a line "kiss me like a final meal" > which turned out to be unconsciously borrowed from a from a song by Howe > Gelb - who, when Guy confessed, said 'buy me a beer when you see me and > we'll say no more about it'. A second example was: "We've got the bullets > but there's no-one there to shoot" was used by I Am Klute who stole it from > Roddy Frame. > > There was then an inconclusive discussion during which the way the Beach > Boyes 'Surfin USA' used a Chuck Berry tune and the 'He's So Fine / My Sweet > Lord' case figured heavily, about how much of a tune or a lyric had to be > used before it constituted plagiarism. > The Beach Boys one was obvious enough that I thought later pressings gave Berry co-writing credit, no? The Harrison/Chiffons thing: I believe George, pretty much, when he said it was unconscious. He did a lot more with those chords than the Chiffons did. For me (see other post), anything other than outright plagiarism w/no sense of homage etc. ought to be irrelevant, legally: that's the way music works. Most people don't seem to get the way limited chord sets, and influence/allusion/reference etc., work in very different ways from "stealing." And non-musicians hear very different chords as "the same" when they're not: the notorious "Smells Like Teen Spirit"/"More Than a Feeling" thing is an excellent example: the rhythm's nearly the same, and the "feel" is similar, but in fact the chord sequences are not at all the same. (You can do some musicological twisting to suggest they're variations on a common idea...but that's way beyond the realm of 'plagiarism" and the sort of thing musicians do all the time: hell, it was institutionalized by jazzers as a way of writing new tunes, whose titles often wittily alluded to their source.) > > I haven't heard this Buddy song, but it sounds to me as if RH might well > have a good case. > > - Mike Godwin > - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.wordpress.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 11:06:08 -0500 From: Jeremy Osner Subject: Re: Plagiarism? 2011/1/30 2fs : > On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 9:04 AM, wrote: > the notorious "Smells Like Teen Spirit"/"More Than a Feeling" > thing is an excellent example: the rhythm's nearly the same, and the "feel" > is similar, but in fact the chord sequences are not at all the same. (You > can do some musicological twisting to suggest they're variations on a common > idea ...And with further twisting you can get "Smells Like Teen Spirit" to be a variation on "Rockin Robin": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNUTYHJrutw ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 9:15:14 -0800 From: M Holden Subject: re: "Plagiarists we know and love" >okaaay - well how about Eno's "Taking tiger Mountain" and the VU's "Lisa says"? >I've got a list I keep called "Plagiarists we know and love" where I >keep ntrack of some of the more obvious and less obvious or more >"inferential"/"homage" ones. Here are some for your perusal: >Clear and present: >*Beck - Fuckin' with my head <---> Rolling Stones - The last time >*The Enemy (UK) - Don't break the red tape <---> The Clash - London calling >*Marilyn Manson - Rock is dead <---> David Bowie - Jean Genie >*Shonen Knife - Riding on the rocket <---> The Who - Boris the spider >Strong influence: >*The Arcade Fire - Neighborhood 2 (Laika) <---> Talking Heads - Cities >*Nic Armstrong - Down home girl <---> Donovan - Sunshine Superman >*Babyshambles - I wish <---> The Clash - Jimmy Jazz >*Bangles - Restless <---> Zombies - It's alright with me >*Bob Geldof - A gospel song <---> Van Morrison - Northern muse (Solid ground) >*Gomez - These three sins <---> Buffalo Springfield - Pay the price >*Magick Heads - Mystery train <---> Triffids - Tarillup bridge >*REM - Hope <---> Leonard Cohen - Suzanne >*Rolling Stones - Memo from Turner <---> Bob Dylan - Stuck inside of Mobile >*Sex Pistols - Submission <---> Kinks - All day and all of the night >*Sneaky Feelings - Amnesia <---> Velvet Underground - Rock and Roll >*Pete Townshend - White City fighting <---> Roy Harper - Hope >*UK -Rendezvous 6:02 <---> Nick Drake - Way to blue >*You am I - Baby clothes <---> David Bowie - Suffragette city >*Warren Zevon - Carmelita <---> Bob Dylan - Desolation Row >Channeling other groups: >*Colder - Crazy love <---> channelling Joy Division >*Primal Scream - Little death <---> channelling Barrett-era Pink Floyd Recently I was listening to a Cat Stevens compilation and noticed that the song Father and Son reminded me strongly of Fight Test from Flaming Lips. I looked it up and apparently the Lips had to pay half of the royalties for that song to Cat (Yusuf). Hope the Buzzcocks (What Do I Get) don't go after Shonen Knife (the Devil House). They might have to split the $7.48 that Shonen Knife made on the song... Marc ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 11:07:46 +1300 From: grutness@slingshot.co.nz Subject: re: "Plagiarists we know and love" >Recently I was listening to a Cat Stevens compilation and noticed >that the song Father and Son reminded me strongly of Fight Test from >Flaming Lips. I looked it up and apparently the Lips had to pay half >of the royalties for that song to Cat (Yusuf). Hadn't noticed that, but you're right. Forgot to metion that our very own Mr H is on my list, too, for pointing at Norway in an entirely too Springsteen-like way James - -- James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.- =-.-=-.-=-.- You talk to me as if from a distance .-=-.-=-.-=-. -=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time .-=- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 17:48:57 -0500 (EST) From: Harold Lepidus Subject: Re: "Plagiarists we know and love" The new Britney Spears single had the same chord changes as a recent Coldplay song that Joe Satriani said he wrote and recorded years ago, but Cat Stevens said that, even earlier, it was part of his "Foreigner Suite" . . . Harold Lepidus Bob Dylan Examiner Twitter Facebook - -----Original Message----- From: M Holden To: Fegmaniax ; James Dignan Sent: Sun, Jan 30, 2011 7:56 am Subject: re: "Plagiarists we know and love" >okaaay - well how about Eno's "Taking tiger Mountain" and the VU's "Lisa says"? >I've got a list I keep called "Plagiarists we know and love" where I >keep ntrack of some of the more obvious and less obvious or more >"inferential"/"homage" ones. Here are some for your perusal: >Clear and present: >*Beck - Fuckin' with my head <---> Rolling Stones - The last time >*The Enemy (UK) - Don't break the red tape <---> The Clash - London calling >*Marilyn Manson - Rock is dead <---> David Bowie - Jean Genie >*Shonen Knife - Riding on the rocket <---> The Who - Boris the spider >Strong influence: >*The Arcade Fire - Neighborhood 2 (Laika) <---> Talking Heads - Cities >*Nic Armstrong - Down home girl <---> Donovan - Sunshine Superman >*Babyshambles - I wish <---> The Clash - Jimmy Jazz >*Bangles - Restless <---> Zombies - It's alright with me >*Bob Geldof - A gospel song <---> Van Morrison - Northern muse (Solid ground) >*Gomez - These three sins <---> Buffalo Springfield - Pay the price >*Magick Heads - Mystery train <---> Triffids - Tarillup bridge >*REM - Hope <---> Leonard Cohen - Suzanne >*Rolling Stones - Memo from Turner <---> Bob Dylan - Stuck inside of Mobile >*Sex Pistols - Submission <---> Kinks - All day and all of the night >*Sneaky Feelings - Amnesia <---> Velvet Underground - Rock and Roll >*Pete Townshend - White City fighting <---> Roy Harper - Hope >*UK -Rendezvous 6:02 <---> Nick Drake - Way to blue >*You am I - Baby clothes <---> David Bowie - Suffragette city >*Warren Zevon - Carmelita <---> Bob Dylan - Desolation Row >Channeling other groups: >*Colder - Crazy love <---> channelling Joy Division >*Primal Scream - Little death <---> channelling Barrett-era Pink Floyd Recently I was listening to a Cat Stevens compilation and noticed that the song Father and Son reminded me strongly of Fight Test from Flaming Lips. I looked it up and apparently the Lips had to pay half of the royalties for that song to Cat (Yusuf). Hope the Buzzcocks (What Do I Get) don't go after Shonen Knife (the Devil House). They might have to split the $7.48 that Shonen Knife made on the song... Marc ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 17:13:44 -0600 From: 2fs Subject: Re: "Plagiarists we know and love" On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 4:48 PM, Harold Lepidus wrote: > The new Britney Spears single had the same chord changes > as a recent Coldplay song that Joe Satriani said he wrote and recorded > years > ago, > but Cat Stevens said that, even earlier, it was part of his "Foreigner > Suite" > Generally, chord-based plagiarism suits are stupid: as I said, damned near all pop music uses variations on a smallish handful of chord sequences, and if enough of those suits succeed, you might as well just give up on pop music. I mean, it'd be one thing if you wrote a song whose chord sequence was (arbritrarily chosen) A, Eb, Em, Bb, G, Fm, Db, Gm, B, or some crazy wacked-out illogical sequence like that, and then another song came along w/the exact same sequence...but to take the "Fight Test/Father and Son" thing: if indeed Stevens' publishers won half royalties, it should not be based solely on the chord sequence (which is dead common: yet another variation on the Pachelbel Canon, as it happens) but on that in combination with a couple of melodic sequences that are also the same as the Stevens' tune and a lyrical idea or two that also seems similar. In other words, judging plagiarism is nto a science but an art: it's the cumulative effect of any number of similarities. In this case, my guess is it was entirely unconscious... (One of the more annoyingly dumb-ass suits was the one against Men at Work last year: five notes from a kids' song that, probably, the band's flute player (who improvised it into "Down Under") thought was folk music, and which was *clearly* referential at that: that *ought*to fall under the musical equivalent of "fair use" or quotation. Most ironic example of this I can think of? There was an article awhile back on similar issues...whose headline was an *unacknowledged allusion* to Emily Dickinson: writers do that all the time, but just as a joke is ruined by being explained, so too is a literary reference ruined by explicit acknowledgement. Much art works on leaving a space for the beholder to figure out the meanings, which include context (in which various references, etc, fall). Legal decisions which have the effect of compelling artists to be deadly literalists, explaining their jokes to the audience, are anti-art and should be overturned. And would be if I were King God. - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.wordpress.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 18:17:57 -0600 From: 2fs Subject: Re: fegmaniax-digest V19 #7 On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 3:32 AM, wrote: > > Strong influence: > *The Arcade Fire - Neighborhood 2 (Laika) <---> Talking Heads - Cities > Wow. I don't hear that at all...except on the most basic level of "mostly two chords or so, and sorta fast." Care to elaborate on what you're hearing? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 12:08:27 -0800 From: "John B. Jones" Subject: I may have turned a corner in my "The King Is Dead" listening. I heard the full album this morning, in sequence, on my way to work. (I'd just heard songs previously, interspersed with other stuff like Deerhoof and Destroyer). If you look at the album from the context of Portland weather (cloudy, rainy and grey, gloomy and cold) *especially* at this time of year ("January Hymn"), the album seems to be a reaction to it -- go GENERATE YOUR OWN sunshine. Try to make it feel like June. It is an exercise in HOPE. Disclaimer: I'm fully projecting here, but it works for me. so hey! tl:dr; Portland weather a metaphor for hard times....stay hopeful, those 2 months of sunshine will come eventually. ;) jbj ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V19 #9 ******************************