From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V17 #260 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Wednesday, September 30 2009 Volume 17 : Number 260 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Trapped in my own head; help requested [Sebastian Hagedorn ] Re: Trapped in my own head; help requested [2fs ] Re: Fanboy/Fangirl/Disposable Income Status Check [Steve Talkowski ] Re: Trapped in my own head; help requested [lep ] Meanwhile, over in *my* head... [Jeremy Osner ] Re: Trapped in my own head; help requested [Rex ] never mind the Vuze thing [Jill Brand ] Mac help needed [Jill Brand ] Re: Mac help needed [Carrie Galbraith ] Re: Mac help needed [Sebastian Hagedorn ] Re: Trapped in my own head; help requested [2fs ] Re: Fanboy/Fangirl/Disposable Income Status Check [Miles Goosens Subject: Re: Trapped in my own head; help requested - -- lep is rumored to have mumbled on 30. September 2009 02:47:07 -0400 regarding Trapped in my own head; help requested: > Does anyone know who Felt reminds me of? I can only tell you about the other way round: Belle & Sebastian remind me of Felt! Stuart Murdoch has often named Lawrence as a major influence. - -- Sebastian Hagedorn Am alten Stellwerk 22, 50733 Kvln, Germany http://www.uni-koeln.de/~a0620/ "Being just contaminates the void" - Robyn Hitchcock ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 02:01:31 -0700 From: Carrie Galbraith Subject: Re: Trapped in my own head; help requested On Sep 29, 2009, at 11:47 PM, lep wrote: > > > P.S. Yes, I hate people who use the word "gestalt", too. > I have to teach Gestalt Theory in my Graphic Design classes. So it could be worse. - - c ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 09:30:28 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: Ira Glass Interviews Joss Whedon On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Christopher Gross wrote: > I still haven't listened to the interview (busy busy busy), but it sounds > like Mr. Glass may be making too much of the "young chick with older dude > watching over her" thing. On BtVS, the Buffy-Giles relationship became more > of a partnership than a master-apprentice thing within a day of their first > meeting, and it only became a more equal partnership as Buffy matured. > Giles had the knowledge and experience to give Buffy, of course, so > naturally he had a certain authority. But Buffy was his equal in > decision-making, and by the end of season 3 if not earlier, she was the > clear and acknowledged leader of the group. Also, note that Giles' > "watching over and protecting" Buffy mostly consisted of preparing her to > fight better, not hiding her from the harsh realities of the world. So I > don't see much problem from a feminist perspective despite Giles' role as > teacher and guide. > I think Glass's question had more to do with the way the relationship or roles might be perceived, and with the persistence of the dynamic of that kind of relationship in various of Whedon's shows. It wasn't an accusation, more of a question about something that *could* be regarded as residual macho-ism. > > As for the other shows, I'm not sure how well the young-chick, old-dude > thing applies to Firefly or Dollhouse. On Dollhouse, Echo, rather than her > two older male guardians/saviors, seems to be taking charge of the plot > (despite some rather striking handicaps, like not having a stable persona). > And on Firefly, Mal was protective of all of his people, not just River; > and River pretty much heals herself with only a little help from Mal, Simon > or anyone else. > My guess is that if Whedon were writing his responses and had more time to formulate them, he might well have pointed out that a plot of a show, or the relationships among their characters, is not a political statement and can't be - actually, I just remembered that somewhere else in the interview he basically does say this: the plots of shows can't always be "let's all be good liberals now" because there needs to be conflict, there needs to be evolution of character and situation, etc. And if all the "good guys" are good from the beginning and always, who'd want to watch? (Related to the well-known fact that it's way easier to write and play a villain than an interesting hero.) Not sure if Glass had Mal or Simon in mind re Firefly/Serenity - but yeah: that's the biggest stretch in the question. It is interesting that most (all?) the handlers in _Dollhouse_ in the first season are male...(or am I misremembering?). > > My ten-second explanation of why BtVS is a feminist show: It's not feminist > because Buffy is a superhero. It's feminist because it's the story of how > Buffy, despite being burdened with the unwanted and severely limiting > destiny of being a superhero, nevertheless manages to take control of her > own life and fate. > I think "Feminism for Superheroes" would be a great title for something... - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.wordpress.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 09:48:05 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: Trapped in my own head; help requested On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 4:01 AM, Carrie Galbraith wrote: > On Sep 29, 2009, at 11:47 PM, lep wrote: > > > > > > P.S. Yes, I hate people who use the word "gestalt", too. > > > > I have to teach Gestalt Theory in my Graphic Design classes. So it > could be worse. > I think "gestalt" should be a type of beer - as in, "Oh yeah, they make a great gestalt, but their porter's even better." Also, a contest! "When I hear the word 'gestalt,' I reach for my ______" - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.wordpress.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 10:26:04 -0400 From: Steve Talkowski Subject: Re: Fanboy/Fangirl/Disposable Income Status Check I have just this one framed and hanging: http://www.flickr.com/photos/stevetalkowski/2256379906/in/set-72157603884052286/ What do the new one(s) look like? - -Steve On Sep 29, 2009, at 10:20 PM, lep wrote: > Hi List, > > I'm getting pretty, pretty close to getting those RH & the V3 > silkscreen posters up on the wall -- the frames have been ordered. > > Are you guys all way ahead of me? > > xo > > -- > "people with opinions just go around bothering one another." -- the > buddha - -- Steve Talkowski Character Design & Animation http://sketchbot.blogspot.com http://web.mac.com/stevetalkowski ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 11:36:47 -0400 From: lep Subject: Re: Fanboy/Fangirl/Disposable Income Status Check Steve says: > I have just this one framed and hanging: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/stevetalkowski/2256379906/in/set-72157603884052286/ > What do the new one(s) look like? It's a trolley bus that says "Goodnight Oslo" along its side. It's a bit larger, and landscape. I got it at the show the boys did here in April (to give you an idea of when it was being sold.) I assume it's done by the same artist as the one you have, but I don't know for sure. xo - -- "people with opinions just go around bothering one another." -- the buddha ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 12:01:06 -0400 From: Stewart Russell Subject: Re: Fanboy/Fangirl/Disposable Income Status Check 2009/9/30 Steve Talkowski : > I have just this one framed and hanging: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/stevetalkowski/2256379906/in/set-72157603884052286/ That's the one I have. They cancelled the Toronto gig earlier this year, so no poster for me. Stewart ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 13:47:08 -0400 From: lep Subject: Re: Ira Glass Interviews Joss Whedon jeff 2fs says: > On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Christopher Gross wrote: > >> I still haven't listened to the interview (busy busy busy), but it sounds >> like Mr. Glass may be making too much of the "young chick with older dude >> watching over her" thing. On BtVS, the Buffy-Giles relationship became more >> of a partnership than a master-apprentice thing within a day of their first >> meeting, and it only became a more equal partnership as Buffy matured. >> Giles had the knowledge and experience to give Buffy, of course, so >> naturally he had a certain authority. But Buffy was his equal in >> decision-making, and by the end of season 3 if not earlier, she was the >> clear and acknowledged leader of the group. Also, note that Giles' >> "watching over and protecting" Buffy mostly consisted of preparing her to >> fight better, not hiding her from the harsh realities of the world. So I >> don't see much problem from a feminist perspective despite Giles' role as >> teacher and guide. >> > > I think Glass's question had more to do with the way the relationship or > roles might be perceived, and with the persistence of the dynamic of that > kind of relationship in various of Whedon's shows. It wasn't an accusation, > more of a question about something that *could* be regarded as residual > macho-ism. the "persistence of the dynamic" is a good way what i believe mr. glass is asking about: why is there always "the dude", and why does he even have to exist. i actually don't think whedon skirted the question that much - i think he just tried to find some humor in the situation. i mean, he said *he's* the dude - he wants to be the person that "recognizes" (his word, i believe) the strength of the girl, strength that she doesn't necessarily realize herself. again, it's a bit patronizing, but at least he's being honest. i think the issue is brought out in an interesting way in "dollhouse" with the character of ballard; he "recognizes" caroline to the point of it being a bit fucked-up. he wants to save her...not that she asked. i think ballard is more in this position than echo's handlers - - i mean, the actives are essentially children when not imprinted (and, i imagine, occasionally when they are imprinted as well...) i'm not saying that all of this isn't interesting - i just think it undermines the idea that whedon is a "feminist" writer. just because he (or maybe it's his fans - i don't know where i first started hearing it) doesn't mean it's true. >> As for the other shows, I'm not sure how well the young-chick, old-dude >> thing applies to Firefly or Dollhouse. On Dollhouse, Echo, rather than her >> two older male guardians/saviors, seems to be taking charge of the plot >> (despite some rather striking handicaps, like not having a stable persona). i think mr. glass' point is, again, why do whedon's stories seem to be constructed in a way that the men seem to have some necessary part in bringing out the inner strength of the woman? >> And on Firefly, Mal was protective of all of his people, not just River; >> and River pretty much heals herself with only a little help from Mal, Simon >> or anyone else. see below. > My guess is that if Whedon were writing his responses and had more time to > formulate them, he might well have pointed out that a plot of a show, or the > relationships among their characters, is not a political statement and can't > be - actually, I just remembered that somewhere else in the interview he > basically does say this: the plots of shows can't always be "let's all be > good liberals now" because there needs to be conflict, there needs to be > evolution of character and situation, etc. And if all the "good guys" are > good from the beginning and always, who'd want to watch? (Related to the > well-known fact that it's way easier to write and play a villain than an > interesting hero.) i'm confused. what do liberals and "good guys" have to do with this? i bring this up, naturally, because it gives me my rare chance to mention...BSG. you can have strong female characters without regard to liberals or morality. that's one thing i like about true feminism - - it allows women to be fucked-up assholes. just like regular people. > Not sure if Glass had Mal or Simon in mind re Firefly/Serenity - but yeah: > that's the biggest stretch in the question. i seriously can't imagine he was talking about mal. mal certainly helped, but simon was the one who extracted her, batshit-crazy, from where she was being held, took her on the run, and played nursemaid. > It is interesting that most > (all?) the handlers in _Dollhouse_ in the first season are male...(or am I > misremembering?). ISTR that whiskey had a female handler - i'm half-remembering a scene late in the season. i think it was in or around bonsai class, just before a flashback to alpha's attacking whiskey because of his fixation on echo. as ever, lauren - -- "people with opinions just go around bothering one another." -- the buddha ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 14:11:08 -0400 From: lep Subject: Re: Trapped in my own head; help requested Sebastian says: > -- lep is rumored to have mumbled on 30. September > 2009 02:47:07 -0400 regarding Trapped in my own head; help requested: > >> Does anyone know who Felt reminds me of? > > I can only tell you about the other way round: Belle & Sebastian remind me > of Felt! Stuart Murdoch has often named Lawrence as a major influence. i've heard that, but i, personally, i don't hear it. maybe in "the life pursuit". can you elaborate a bit on how/why? right now, they're sounding very 80s and i'm wondering why i'm thinking of the dire straights. allmusic mentions television - i can hear that, but i still have no idea who i'm thinking of. xo - -- "people with opinions just go around bothering one another." -- the buddha ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 14:48:36 -0400 From: Jeremy Osner Subject: Meanwhile, over in *my* head... LEP's query about Felt prompts me to ask you all (and especially Brian, who I know has listened to the record in question): What late 80's alternative band is Deni Bonet's record "Last Girl on Earth" reminding me of so strongly? It sounds *just like* somebody or maybe like a confluence of two or three somebodies, but I can't for the life of me figure out who. J ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 12:05:46 -0700 From: Rex Subject: Re: Trapped in my own head; help requested On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 11:11 AM, lep wrote: > > right now, they're sounding very 80s and i'm wondering why i'm > thinking of the dire straights. allmusic mentions television - i can > hear that, but i still have no idea who i'm thinking of. > Television's an obvious influence, but Felt is way soupier. By your mention of Dire Straits I take it you mean a pretty well-known (mainstream?) '80's band, so it's no good me mentioning Close Lobsters or the Field Mice, is it? Chameleons? - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 15:22:17 -0400 From: lep Subject: Re: Trapped in my own head; help requested Rex says: > Television's an obvious influence, but Felt is way soupier. By your mention > of Dire Straits I take it you mean a pretty well-known (mainstream?) '80's > band, actually, no constraints on what i mean. i don't actually know the dire straights much at all - i saw the heavily-played mid-1980s videos that were on MTV, and i *love* the song "making movies" (or whatever it's called), but that's about it. from the bit i've heard of them, they do seem to very recognizable. maybe it's just knopfler's voice. > so it's no good me mentioning Close Lobsters or the Field Mice, huh? and huh? > Chameleons? do they sound like chameleons? just last week i was on a chameleons kick; a friend recently went to a mark burgess show; burgess is touring, but it turned into more like roaming around the country, picking up bands in each city as he goes, rehearsing (or not so much), and playing chameleons sets. i wouldn't mind seeing him; sadly, i've never seen the chameleons. xo - -- "people with opinions just go around bothering one another." -- the buddha ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 16:52:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Jill Brand Subject: never mind the Vuze thing I downloaded Vuze. Now I have to see if I remember how to use it. It's been ages since I did any P2P stuff. Jill ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 16:37:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Jill Brand Subject: Mac help needed Well, it's not necessarily Mac help, but I'm sending this from a brand new Mac Mini, for which I want to get an external drive. I like to buy things at Costco, but the reviews for the ones they have (one is a Western Digital and the other an Acom Data) were abysmal. We were thinking of a 500 G or 1 T unit. Any suggestions? Also, I've forgotten how to download Vuze (the former Azureus) and I'd like to get it for the new computer. What do I do? I plan to watch the first episode of the new Stargate series because Janelle Monae is going to be in it, and she's a trip. Otherwise, I'm remaining a stranger to all the SF and fantasy that everyone is gabbing about. Jill ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 14:20:52 -0700 From: Carrie Galbraith Subject: Re: Mac help needed On Sep 30, 2009, at 1:37 PM, Jill Brand wrote: > Well, it's not necessarily Mac help, but I'm sending this from a > brand new Mac Mini, for which I want to get an external drive. I > like to buy things at Costco, but the reviews for the ones they > have (one is a Western Digital and the other an Acom Data) were > abysmal. We were thinking of a 500 G or 1 T unit. Any suggestions? > > Also, I've forgotten how to download Vuze (the former Azureus) and > I'd like to get it for the new computer. What do I do? > > I plan to watch the first episode of the new Stargate series > because Janelle Monae is going to be in it, and she's a trip. > Otherwise, I'm remaining a stranger to all the SF and fantasy that > everyone is gabbing about. > > Jill I bought a 500GB Iogear external drive about a year and a half ago and it is the best external drive I have ever owned! It is stable and steady, fast (firewire) and has never let me down. Oh, and I got it from Best Buy I think. I am now in the market for a 1 or 2TB drive so will be eager to hear of recs from other fegs myself! - - c Carrie Galbraith 707.477.8607 meketone@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 23:24:20 +0200 From: Sebastian Hagedorn Subject: Re: Mac help needed - -- Jill Brand is rumored to have mumbled on 30. September 2009 16:37:45 -0400 regarding Mac help needed: > Well, it's not necessarily Mac help, but I'm sending this from a brand > new Mac Mini, for which I want to get an external drive. I like to buy > things at Costco, but the reviews for the ones they have (one is a > Western Digital and the other an Acom Data) were abysmal. We were > thinking of a 500 G or 1 T unit. Any suggestions? Two people with Macs I know have and are happy with Western Digital's MyBook 1 TB. Either make sure you get a Mac edition, i.e. the drive is pre-formatted for Macs, or make sure you format it yourself, so that it uses HFS+ instead of FAT32. > Also, I've forgotten how to download Vuze (the former Azureus) and I'd > like to get it for the new computer. What do I do? You download it :) www.vuze.com Alternatively you can use Transmission, which has the reputation of being the most Mac-friendly BT client: - -- Sebastian Hagedorn Am alten Stellwerk 22, 50733 Kvln, Germany http://www.uni-koeln.de/~a0620/ "Being just contaminates the void" - Robyn Hitchcock ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 16:30:42 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: Trapped in my own head; help requested On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 2:22 PM, lep wrote: > Rex says: > > Television's an obvious influence, but Felt is way soupier. By your > mention > > of Dire Straits I take it you mean a pretty well-known (mainstream?) > '80's > > band, > > actually, no constraints on what i mean. > > i don't actually know the dire straights much at all - > I think "Dire Straights" (as opposed to "Dire Straits") should be, like, a parody band that's actually the members of a gay band, parodying straight-people mannerisms and music. Uh, no idea what that might actually sound like - but there's your name. Actually, they do might sound like Dire Straits. (Note: I hereby claim invention of the peculiar and emphatic verb construction "do might"...) - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.wordpress.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 16:32:12 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: Fanboy/Fangirl/Disposable Income Status Check On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Stewart Russell wrote: > 2009/9/30 Steve Talkowski : >> I have just this one framed and hanging: >> >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/stevetalkowski/2256379906/in/set-72157603884052286/ > > That's the one I have. > > They cancelled the Toronto gig earlier this year, so no poster for me. I was super-short on cash at the time of the Exit/In show in April, or I so would have come home with one of those. I'm not close to flush now, but maybe if there's a similarly desirable goodie at the Bluebird show in October, I can snag one this go-round. later, Miles - -- now with blogspot retsin! http://readingpronunciation.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 16:52:05 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: wherein some fegs discuss teh Whedonverse and BSG, to the utter and complete surprise of exactly no one On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 12:47 PM, lep wrote: > jeff 2fs says: > > On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Christopher Gross > wrote: > > > I think Glass's question had more to do with the way the relationship or > > roles might be perceived, and with the persistence of the dynamic of that > > kind of relationship in various of Whedon's shows. It wasn't an > accusation, > > more of a question about something that *could* be regarded as residual > > macho-ism. > > the "persistence of the dynamic" is a good way what i believe mr. > glass is asking about: why is there always "the dude", and why does he > even have to exist. > Well, you get to some powerful questions about the nature of drama, and its dependence (or not) on conventional notions of behavior and thereby conventional roles. Can you have drama that utterly bypasses such conventions, or would that not "read" as "dramatic" but instead be more or less incomprehensible? Note that if you undercut a stereotype, that undercutting can work only if your audience is aware of the stereotype in the first place...and, of course, making them re-aware of it reactivates in the audience's minds. It's like those annoying journalistic conventions: "Ms. Bond is not your conventional, bun-wearing, patron-shushing librarian - oh no, why she has piercings, tattoos, and listens to punk rock on her newfangled 'iPhone' dealy!" I think your point is that BSG *alludes to* stereotypes merely by bypassing them almost completely: they're not really there onscreen at all...they're in viewers' minds (if they think of them), as a sort of negative realization that they need not exist or be activated, at least not in the BSG 'verse. And that's a more thoroughgoing feminism (when we're talking about women) than Whedon's self-admittedly clumsier dealings with same. But I think Whedon just plain likes to fuck with expectation by at first putting them out there: it's there in the very provocation of calling something "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" and essentially daring an audience to take seriously anything called that. > i think the issue is brought out in an interesting way in "dollhouse" > with the character of ballard; he "recognizes" caroline to the point > of it being a bit fucked-up. he wants to save her...not that she > asked. Right - Ballard's so much a good guy that he's a bad guy. Oversimplified...and in the commentary for one ep. Whedon notes that he had to have Tahmoh (and I forget how to spell his last name) because his performance on BSG made him seem like the kind of guy you just *knew* was ultimately going to do the right thing...and that's the kind of actor you need if you want either to have ultimately do the right thing *or* ultimately not do the right thing, while dragging the audience along in a moral slipstream of believing the opposite so long they're torn to ethical shreds. Uh, runaway metaphor: what I mean is that I think Whedon knows people will think Ballard's doing the right thing for the right reasons for much longer than they would with some other actor, less mensch-y, in the role - and Whedon *wants* to implicate the audience in that acceptance, *wants* to question why we follow these "heroes" well past ethical bright lines we'd quail at following with characters who *don't* seem so solid or likeable. And that, ultimately, is why Whedon's not a polemicist: he's too aware of compromise, and the sometimes tragic need for same. (Which I think is what he said about BSG: he admires the way that show all but forces its viewers, sometimes, to accept one or other moral atrocity because the alternative is even worse.) i'm not saying that all of this isn't interesting - i just think it > undermines the idea that whedon is a "feminist" writer. just because > he (or maybe it's his fans - i don't know where i first started > hearing it) doesn't mean it's true. > I think Whedon said so, himself (I read your invisible words above). Of course, whether it's "so" also depends who gets to define "feminist" - arguably, the answer is that everyone has to, like any other word denoting some sort of ethical value. > > >> As for the other shows, I'm not sure how well the young-chick, old-dude > >> thing applies to Firefly or Dollhouse. On Dollhouse, Echo, rather than > her > >> two older male guardians/saviors, seems to be taking charge of the plot > >> (despite some rather striking handicaps, like not having a stable > persona). > > i think mr. glass' point is, again, why do whedon's stories seem to be > constructed in a way that the men seem to have some necessary part in > bringing out the inner strength of the woman? > See above re "drama" - but I wonder if they *really* have such necessary part, or whether we're only (so far) led to believe that they do...and ultimately, perhaps their role ends up being rather opposite: that in thinking to help, they're actually hindering. At least at times Whedon's sense of ethical drama tends that way - and gets rather more complex than "Character A 'helps' Character B": _Angel_ gets quite complex & twisted in that area, I think. > > My guess is that if Whedon were writing his responses and had more time > to > > formulate them, he might well have pointed out that a plot of a show, or > the > > relationships among their characters, is not a political statement and > can't > > be - actually, I just remembered that somewhere else in the interview he > > basically does say this: the plots of shows can't always be "let's all be > > good liberals now" because there needs to be conflict, there needs to be > > evolution of character and situation, etc. And if all the "good guys" are > > good from the beginning and always, who'd want to watch? (Related to the > > well-known fact that it's way easier to write and play a villain than an > > interesting hero.) > > i'm confused. what do liberals and "good guys" have to do with this? > Only that for Whedon, "liberals" and "good guys" are, in the real world, largely living in overlapping Venn diagrams. > i bring this up, naturally, because it gives me my rare chance to > mention...BSG. you can have strong female characters without regard > to liberals or morality. that's one thing i like about true feminism > - it allows women to be fucked-up assholes. just like regular people. > Yep. I think I said something similar - or tried to - above, with my comments on BSG just going right past certain characterological/dramatic conventions - and just letting the viewer go "oh - this isn't about whether Starbuck is a 'feminist icon' or anything else - she's just an interesting character, sometimes she does good things, sometimes she fucks up, and if we derive 'feminism' from this, it's [exactly what you wrote in your last two phrases above]." > i seriously can't imagine he was talking about mal. mal certainly > helped, but simon was the one who extracted her, batshit-crazy, from > where she was being held, took her on the run, and played nursemaid. > Plus Mal is protective - of everything except his ship, and his "official" crew - only unwillingly, in the mode of yr usual noirish/postmodern western hero who initially thinks this nascent "conscience" thing is more like a damned pebble lodged god knows where not to found in his cowboy boot that he just can't dislodge...until he realizes that, wait a sec, actually & eventually it's easier to walk with said pebble cuz it turns out he was always kinda limping before & the pebble so happens to be lodged in his boot in such a way that he can actually walk better - but it takes him time to figure out that what at first appears an impediment is actually an improvement. Of course, I don't know what kind of footwear Mal actually wore - surely someone here paid enough attention to realize. - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.wordpress.com ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V17 #260 ********************************