From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V17 #219 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Wednesday, August 12 2009 Volume 17 : Number 219 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: "Follow The Money" ["Stewart C. Russell" ] Re:Cortez the Killer [James Dignan ] Re: translation party [James Dignan ] Re: Cortez the Killer [kevin studyvin ] Re: "Follow The Money" [2fs ] Re: Cortez the Killer [Rex ] Re: "Follow The Money" [ross ] Re: Cortez the Killer [2fs ] Re: The eighties will never die. [Rex ] Re: Cortez the Killer [Sebastian Hagedorn ] Re: "Follow The Money" [Christopher Gross ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 17:53:31 -0400 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: Re: "Follow The Money" Nectar At Any Cost! wrote: > > my mistake. the graph shows not only DDT, but also "DDT-like" chemicals > BHC, Arsenic, and Lead. * DDT is an organochloride, something that, before the development of chlorine chemistry in 19th century, did not exist. * Arsenic is a chemical element. * Lead is a metallic (chemical) element. ==> How are these 'DDT-like'? They're as different as chalk and cheese. > i didn't say the correlation *proves* causation. but, knowing that these > substances cause paralysis They do? I know Tetra-ethyl lead can in high doses, but DDT? You'd have to drink the stuff. Stewart ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 10:47:50 +1200 From: James Dignan Subject: Re:Cortez the Killer TGQ wrote: >Sebastian writes, > > > I think The Quail was kidding and not referring to the *actual* Aztecs, but > > rather to the way they are programmed in Civilization :) > >Oh, no, no. I was referring to both. > >The Aztecs were a pretty ruthless and violent civilization. I think it's >funny that Neil Young romanticizes them with, "Hate was just a legend/And >war was never known." Not a stanza I'd associate with the Aztecs. Or the >Incans, for that matter. Not even the Mayans. (Maybe, just maybe the >Czechs.) > Feh. Don't worry about Allen, folks... he's just never forgiven them for the Quail Day festivities. (for those of yopu with shorter memories, IK refer you to and the couple of digests following it. James PS - while hunting for this, it was great to rediscover ! - -- James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.- =-.-=-.-=-.- You talk to me as if from a distance .-=-.-=-.-=-. -=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time .-=- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 11:08:31 +1200 From: James Dignan Subject: Re: translation party THANK YOU! for the translationparty link. Some Robyn Hitchcock lyrics - *If, as in the case of the glass of the hotel. I think. What is it? This may *This is my dream train. I take a different zone *Wisdom snake, tree, dark, curling to the gate I see a circle of blank lines This last one had some wonderful intermediate stages ("Snake in the Gate of Wisdom, First Thursday, the dark, curling into the sky I see the circular and linear") And - this totally inexplicabl one, which failed to reach equilibriume: *I have a right to his face and in my 33's bubble, and you start to look fat, he was walking Don't know it? Here are some intermediate stages: *He walked to the right of the bubble, fat face, I started 33, I had my face *The bubble started to walk to his right, the fat is laughing, but I'm 33, I was in my face *Fat, I'm 33, I have laughed in his face I'm walking down the street first, but I have almost the right man to start the bubble *I laugh because they are fat, he's 33 it's my first walk down the street, I was close to me, the man started to bubble on the right *I walked the streets being fat, and he is my third one of three, I started laughing because I was close to me, is the right man in the bubble *I have the right balloon man, I have two of him walking down the street came round and fat, I have to laugh, i want to be up to Nia and I have ever seen > p.s. we're in the middle of the first real summer heat wave here. > it's halfway through the night and it's still (allegedly) 82 degrees > out (that's (82 - 32) * 5/9 for you non-US folks.) humid, too, so > good lord, it feels like i'm in the middle of a damn tennessee > williams play. well, without all the people yelling or (probably) > having sex in the back orchard. FWIW, we're just getting into spring weather here (at last). 17 degrees yesterday (for US folks, that's 63 F). Makes a change from the single figure temps (i.e., 32 to 50 F) of the last couple of months. James - -- James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.- =-.-=-.-=-.- You talk to me as if from a distance .-=-.-=-.-=-. -=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time .-=- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 17:16:32 -0700 From: kevin studyvin Subject: Re: Cortez the Killer > Crime in the City (Sixty to Zero, part 1) is great on the album, but > way before Freedom was released (heh - that sounds redundant), Neil > was doing the full version live. On the Ten Men Workin' tour (in > 1988, for This Note's for You), it went on for a majestic twenty > minutes, maybe more. I must have scoured every Neil release that I - > and my college radio station - owned trying to find that damn song, > only to find out months (or a year and some) later that it hadn't even > been released. This was when I laid the needle down on the Freedom > version _during my own radio show_ on the strength and progginess of > the song title with the parenthetical subtitle and all. > > I've since acquired more than a handful of live recordings of that > tour (including the show I saw, in Indianapolis), and that epic > CitS(60-0,pt1) is as great as I remembered it. > Only live version that comes to mind is the Weld one, which is light-years beyond the performance on Freedom. > My other Neil recommendation: Ragged Glory (w/Crazy Horse) Just a > damn meaty bunch of songs in a thick distortion sauce. Country Home > isn't one of his most well-known tracks, but I freakin' love that > guitar hook, and the lyrics are droll in a very Neil way. Play it > loud. ("Crank "Live Rust" 'til the neighbors bleed,...") > Amen. But it's too bad the "Don't Spook the Horse" outtake didn't make the CD. I have a creaky old cassette single with it and it's a prime example of NY's brand of humor, up there with "Field Of Opportunity." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 21:46:43 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: "Follow The Money" On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 4:22 PM, Nectar At Any Cost! wrote: > > > > well, in the real world, those who live health-fully never get sick. and > in those few societies that live health-fully, life expectancy is well past > 100 -- and the people live *fully active lives* until the end of their > days. > > this is a theoretically dubious proposition, too (at least to my way of > thinking). an organism which tends to sickness is not one that is going to > be evolutionarily successful. the hunza were not only living well past > 100, they were *reproducing* into their 90s. No. The stories of super-longevity attributed to the Hunza, etc., have by no means been scientifically established. The verified longest-lived human has lived to be 122. See this page: . Note that this is part of a website of an organization dedicated to research into extending lifespan...that is, you'd think it'd be in their interest to exaggerate these figures. They don't; instead, they note that tales of people living to be 160 and such are utterly unverified. A look at a map of global life expectancy (one's available at the Wikipedia entry for "life expectancy") would show that if the Hunza did typically life "well past 100" (say, 125 as an average), they'd be off-the-charts anomalous for that region of the globe, nearly doubling the regional life expectancy (as well as going way beyond, by like 40 years, the highest recorded life expectancy. I noticed also that when one googles "Hunza" and "longevity" or similar things, what mostly comes up are the usual snake-oil vendors promising that if you eat this or believe that or whatever you'll live nearly forever. People die. People have always died. And not at radically extended ages. Let's put it this way: if it's the corruption of human culture and a refusal or inability to eat healthily that kills us sooner, why is it that we don't see wildly extended lifespans for animals in pristine environments whose food supply is untainted by chemicals and additives and what-all? Human lifespan is well within an expected range for mammals of our general size, etc. - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.wordpress.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 23:04:21 -0400 From: Rex Subject: Re: Cortez the Killer On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 12:56 PM, 2fs wrote: > gs, so the effect is that the chord *shifts* rather than > changes outright. > > And you're right about the mournfulness: one of those songs where, whatever > the shortcomings of the lyric (in being a bit too on the nose at points) Oh, I'll fight you on that. The lyrics are ace. The simultaneous shift into both first person and romantic longing for *the last two lines of the song* is one of the ballsiest, most profound lyrical feats EVAR. EVAR. Say it with me: EVAR. The song and lyrics together are like falling asleep forever. Those lines are the being-jolted-awake part. And then you surrender. - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 23:09:08 -0400 From: ross Subject: Re: "Follow The Money" Stewart C. Russell wrote: > Nectar At Any Cost! wrote: > >> but the decline began *before* the introduction of the vaccine. check also >> the graph at the bottom of the page, and note there the striking >> correlation between DDT production and polio. >> > > I can also point you to a graph showing the almost perfect correlation > between the drop in US total highway fatalities against Mexican fresh > lemon imports, 1996-2000. r^2 = 0.97 for that one. > > Stewart > > I looked that one up myself. What a hoot! Thank you. For the curious: http://meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/Lemongraph.jpg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 22:14:42 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: Cortez the Killer On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 10:04 PM, Rex wrote: > > > > And you're right about the mournfulness: one of those songs where, whatever >> the shortcomings of the lyric (in being a bit too on the nose at points) > > > > Oh, I'll fight you on that. The lyrics are ace. The simultaneous shift > into both first person and romantic longing for *the last two lines of the > song* is one of the ballsiest, most profound lyrical feats EVAR. EVAR. Say > it with me: EVAR. > > The song and lyrics together are like falling asleep forever. Those lines > are the being-jolted-awake part. And then you surrender. > I do like the way the last lines shift and bring into focus the mood of the song...but the shortcomings of the song's lyrics, read literally rather than as a sort of vague metaphoring of the mood, are still kinda problematic...twenty-seven flavors of othering. I don't really care - that's one of a handful of Neil Young songs which were among the first few I learned to play* on guitar, and they're still songs that I can fiddle around on for about forever. * "Play" under certain generous definitions only. - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.wordpress.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 23:24:07 -0400 From: Rex Subject: Re: The eighties will never die. On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 3:52 AM, kevin studyvin wrote: > > In the interest of full disclosure, I actually liked both Life and Landing > On Water, and some of Trans (mostly "Inca Queen"). I like "Landing on Water" with some minor provisions, and "Trans" is pretty damned great. However, when I say that I hate something "more than Life itself", I am indeed referring to the Neil record, which I hate rather severely, so stand back, Dennis. - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 08:30:03 +0200 From: Sebastian Hagedorn Subject: Re: Cortez the Killer - -- kevin studyvin is rumored to have mumbled on 11. August 2009 17:16:32 -0700 regarding Re: Cortez the Killer: > Only live version that comes to mind is the Weld one, which is > light-years beyond the performance on Freedom. D'oh! Your mentioning of that made me realized that I hadn't actually ripped all my Neil Young CDs! I just ripped Weld and Trans and have to verify that I've got all the others later ... - -- Sebastian Hagedorn Am alten Stellwerk 22, 50733 Kvln, Germany http://www.uni-koeln.de/~a0620/ "Being just contaminates the void" - Robyn Hitchcock ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 18:45:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Gross Subject: Re: "Follow The Money" As I subtly hinted in my last post, I really doubt this it's useful to continue this debate. Here are just a few specific and hopefully brief replies: On Tue, 11 Aug 2009, Nectar At Any Cost! wrote: > became near-universal. In short, the graph as shown is completely > compatible with the idea that the vaccine stopped new infections from > occurring.> > > i don't think those are *only* post-polio cases. according to wiki, > post-polio affects about 30%-50% of survivors; yet that spike shows as many > or more total cases as the 1950s spike. Well, that section of the graph is labeled "post-polio." And farther down the page they talk about post-polio syndrome in regard to the 1980s cases, without (IIRC) specifically saying if any of those new cases were new infections. I took that as quietly switching the number of cases from polio to post-polio, without claiming new infections but without openly admitting that there aren't any new infections either. Granted the numbers of that latter spike look higher than 30-50% of the earlier spike; but if there were significant numbers of *new* infections in there, why aren't the authors explicitly claiming them? > to start with, or presented clearly and honestly.> > > they're sourced from official statistics. So they claim. I'm skeptical about both the numbers and the way they're presented because of the sneaky tricks I was able to spot with just a brief glance; like the polio to post-polio switch mentioned above, or the polio graph on the other page that only covered from the middle to the end of the early-50s outbreak. (Ever read the classic _How to Lie with Statistics_?) It *would* be interesting to dig up the sources for some of these graphs and see if they're accurate and how well they're represented, but I can't promise I'll ever have the time and energy to do this. > totalizing claims of NH (or what little I've heard of NH).> > > don't know what you mean by "toalizing claims". if you're willing to > clarify, i'll respond to this point. I meant the idea that *no* diseases are caused by germs, and *all* diseases are caused by failing to live a healthy lifestyle as described by NH. > plants. Are they too brainwashed by the pharma corporations, who have no > financial interest in their researches?> > > i don't expect that they are, nor that you are. but it doesn't change the > fact that the drug pushers make enormous profits, and are also very closely > tied in with policy-makers. But policy-makers are one thing; the whole world of science is a very 'nother thing. Modern medicine isn't just a question of determining what drugs the government approves. It's fundamentally based on the sciences, especially biology. The underpinnings of modern medicine, like germ theory, can only be a fraud if most of modern biology is also a fraud. > > > i'll tell you what doesn't make sense to me. given that germs are claimed > to cause disease, but *only* in susceptible subjects, why the mad > propaganda fear-mongering over the latest killer-germ-du-jour? why not > health *education*? > > why are governments spending billions of dollars on vaccines, rather than > health *education*? well, it *does* make sense if one follows the money... I think both those governments, and you, are making a mistake if you believe there must be an either-or choice between vaccines and health education. - --Chris ______________________________________________________________________ Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog. chrisg@gwu.edu ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V17 #219 ********************************