From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V17 #213 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Thursday, August 6 2009 Volume 17 : Number 213 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Is this "Interstellar Overdrive"? [Jeremy Osner ] Re: fegmaniax-digest V17 #212 [James Dignan ] Get born in Kenya (NR) [Steve Schiavo ] Re: fegmaniax-digest V17 #212 [2fs ] movie talk [lep ] Re: WWEAD? (What Would Eb's Ass Do?) [Sebastian Hagedorn ] Re: fegmaniax-digest V17 #212 [lep ] Re: fegmaniax-digest V17 #212 [2fs ] new project? [2fs ] Re: Firefly question (NR) [Capuchin ] Re: movie talk [kevin studyvin ] Robyn in the PacNo ["John B. Jones" ] Re: Robyn in the PacNo [kevin studyvin ] Re: "Follow The Money" ["Nectar At Any Cost!" ] Re: "Follow The Money" [2fs ] Re: Robyn in the PacNo [Carrie Galbraith ] Re: "Follow The Money" ["Stewart C. Russell" ] REAP: John Hughes [Great Quail ] Re: REAP: John Hughes [Jason Brown ] Re: REAP: John Hughes ["Stewart C. Russell" ] Re: REAP: John Hughes [kevin studyvin ] Re: WWEAD? (What Would Eb's Ass Do?) [Carrie Galbraith ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 21:56:33 -0400 From: Jeremy Osner Subject: Is this "Interstellar Overdrive"? I think it might be although I do not quite hear the signature IO riff. Any ideas who is playing it? http://www.amazon.com/gp/mpd/permalink/m23ORCW6SUU8EM Jeremy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 14:04:32 +1200 From: James Dignan Subject: Re: fegmaniax-digest V17 #212 >you're right. i forget there's things aside from rock 'n' roll. >sometimes i forget there's things aside from the magnetic fields. > >and eno albums are allowed to be non-finite. the ambient ones, i mean. > >as ever, >lauren Well, ISTR he's involved in music connected to the "Clock of the long now", which is as close to non-finite music and most of us are likely to get. FWIW, There are several Eno ambient albums designed to be looped- If you set up two compatible albums with slightly different lengths to each repeat continuously on a different CD player/computer/whatever and play them simultaneously, you will get a close to endless series of variations on a theme. (two very quiet ones work best, in fact it's the best use for things like "Neroli" and "Thursday afternoon" which are a bit bland otherwise) >Paula Abdul says she's not returning to A.I. A shame. If she's abandoned artificial intelligence she'll have to do with her own limited natural supply. James - -- James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.- =-.-=-.-=-.- You talk to me as if from a distance .-=-.-=-.-=-. -=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time .-=- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 21:51:24 -0500 From: Steve Schiavo Subject: Get born in Kenya (NR) Great for your workplace. - - Steve __________ Mojo: If push comes to shove, what is your all-time favourite album? Harry Shearer: Right now it would be Apple Venus by XTC. Every fucking song on that record is a killer, and I just think it's Beatles-esque in the best sense of the term. We'll never see it live, which I both treasure and bemoan. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 22:57:56 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: fegmaniax-digest V17 #212 On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 9:04 PM, James Dignan wrote: > > > FWIW, There are several Eno ambient albums designed to be looped- If you > set up two compatible albums with slightly different lengths to each repeat > continuously on a different CD player/computer/whatever and play them > simultaneously, you will get a close to endless series of variations on a > theme. (two very quiet ones work best, in fact it's the best use for things > like "Neroli" and "Thursday afternoon" which are a bit bland otherwise) ISTR doing this with a couple-few CD players at one time or other... Nowadays, my guess is you could put in a couple into Garageband or Audacity or some such (either if multiple asynchronous loops are allowed, or if more than one instance can be active) and port it to a stereo w/Airfoil or whatever.... Obviously if you have a physical mixing board and more than one computer you can do it old-school (semi)-... - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.wordpress.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 03:41:41 -0400 From: lep Subject: movie talk i finally got out to see "(500) days of summer." first: to kevin: ms. zooey is darling, but ms. emily has my heart by a country mile (or is that dr. brennan?) (BTW, zooey follows her big sister with the sexy, slightly raspy voice.) second: "the soundtrack"...i get it. seriously, the movie was very enjoyable, especially given that it's probably somewhere close to a romantic comedy, but i'm tiring of all this music telling the viewer how to feel. especially when they start pulling out the smiths -- talk about taking the easy way out. nevertheless, i recommend it for the adorable actors and good t-shirts. and, hell, the songs aren't bad either. xo - -- "people with opinions just go around bothering one another." -- the buddha ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 10:28:47 +0200 From: Sebastian Hagedorn Subject: Re: WWEAD? (What Would Eb's Ass Do?) - --On 3. August 2009 12:16:14 -0700 Nectar At Any Cost! wrote: > Wages of Fear" are even better movies - at least in my faulty memory> > > *Wages* is indeed awesome. i find *The Killing* overrated, however. I didn't like it as much when I first saw it, but it keeps getting better on repeat viewings. > check out *Asphalt Jungle*. probably my all-time fave heist movie, plus > contains probably my all-time fave movie quote. (won't repeat it here so > as not to ruin its impact for those who've not yet viewed the flick.) Hm, I just noticed that I only gave it 6/10 on IMDb, but that must've been a *long* time ago, because I wasn't even sure I'd seen it! I don't remember it, although the synopsis sounds vaguely familiar. I guess I'll put it in my queue ... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 09:12:12 -0400 From: Jeremy Osner Subject: Did the boys ever make a video for "Underwater Moonlight"? I was thinking last night and this morning about how there ought to be one. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 09:44:37 -0400 From: lep Subject: Re: fegmaniax-digest V17 #212 James >grutness@slingshot.co.nz> says: > FWIW, There are several Eno ambient albums designed to be looped- If you set > up two compatible albums with slightly different lengths to each repeat > continuously on a different CD player/computer/whatever and play them > simultaneously, you will get a close to endless series of variations on a > theme. (two very quiet ones work best, in fact it's the best use for things > like "Neroli" and "Thursday afternoon" which are a bit bland otherwise) interesting; i hadn't heard that was eno's design for some of his work. "thursday afternoon" is one of my favourite eno albums, but it just gets played by itself. i like bland things. xo p.s. to jeff 2fs - can't one start up two copies of winamp or whatever? i seem to (inadvertently) get dueling songs playing fairly frequently. - -- "people with opinions just go around bothering one another." -- the buddha ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 09:47:12 -0400 From: lep Subject: Re: fegmaniax-digest V17 #212 i says: > p.s. to jeff 2fs - can't one start up two copies of winamp or > whatever? i seem to (inadvertently) get dueling songs playing fairly > frequently. ...oops. you likely meant something a bit more sophisticated by "asynchronous loops." xo - -- "people with opinions just go around bothering one another." -- the buddha ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 10:10:17 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: fegmaniax-digest V17 #212 On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 8:44 AM, lep wrote: > James >grutness@slingshot.co.nz> says: > > FWIW, There are several Eno ambient albums designed to be looped- If you > set > p.s. to jeff 2fs - can't one start up two copies of winamp or > whatever? i seem to (inadvertently) get dueling songs playing fairly > frequently. > Apparently so, if that's the case. I was just thinking for myself, that I use AirTunes to stream iTunes to speakers...but that works with only one instance of iTunes (when I tried to do it with two different 'puters I was shut out on the second one). (All I meant by "asynchronous loops" was that one loop might be, say, 61 minutes long (Thursday Afternoon) and another some other length (howver long Neroli is). Of course you could have a loop consisting of a five minute chunk of each...but then the relations *between* the two pieces would remain the same, and part of the idea is that each time the same section of one piece comes up, it's simultaneous with a *different* section of the other piece...so the cumulative music is distinct.) - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.wordpress.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 10:18:43 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: new project? So there's always been at least a hint of proggishness to Robyn's work (some of the spacy instrumentals circa Invisible, things like "You'll Have to Go Sideways" in 7/4, etc.) - but now comes news he's doing a full-on prog collaboration, with Bill Bruford. It'll be called "Gradually Going Tomato." - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.wordpress.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 10:16:16 -0500 (CDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: Firefly question (NR) On Mon, 3 Aug 2009, Steve Schiavo wrote: > 6 years of spoiler space > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This may well have been answered before (but we finally watched the series). > > Why, in "Heart of Gold," did Captain Reynolds *not* have Jayne take out > Rance Burgess at 300 yards? Just wondering. Rance was a well-connected fellow. I suspect the notion of the writers was that killing him would bring down Alliance trouble in a way that killing his nameless minions wouldn't. Also, you know, future villain. They didn't kill Niska, either. J. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 09:15:02 -0700 From: kevin studyvin Subject: Re: movie talk On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 12:41 AM, lep wrote: > i finally got out to see "(500) days of summer." > > first: to kevin: ms. zooey is darling, but ms. emily has my heart by a > country mile (or is that dr. brennan?) (BTW, zooey follows her big > sister with the sexy, slightly raspy voice.) > > second: "the soundtrack"...i get it. > > > seriously, the movie was very enjoyable, especially given that it's > probably somewhere close to a romantic comedy, but i'm tiring of all > this music telling the viewer how to feel. especially when they start > pulling out the smiths -- talk about taking the easy way out. > nevertheless, i recommend it for the adorable actors and good > t-shirts. and, hell, the songs aren't bad either. > > xo > Last thing we saw was Year One. which was last week. We went mostly just to escape the brutal heat and get some AC, but I always love Jack Black's schtick. He so absolutely typifies a type of hipster nitwit I remember from my LA days that it's like going back to high school. And it was nice to see Harold Ramis remembering how to be funny - it gives one hope for the new Ghostbusters project (but who's going to be Venkman Jr.?). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 09:17:01 -0700 From: "John B. Jones" Subject: Robyn in the PacNo Hey fegs - I know there are some plans in the works for various fegs to travel to the October 8th Portland gig. Unfortunately I'll be in Boston that night, but I come home the next day. Just wondering if these travelling fegs might be thinking of also taking in the Seattle show on the 10th?? Cuz that's something I'd like to be a part of. Let me know! JBJ (by the way, the PacNo was completely tongue in cheek. No one says that....well, not that I know of anyway) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 09:51:58 -0700 From: kevin studyvin Subject: Re: Robyn in the PacNo > (by the way, the PacNo was completely tongue in cheek. No one says > that....well, not that I know of anyway) > Nah, it's not pretentious enough. Yep, I'm seriously looking forward to that action. Now I'm just pissed because the Firesign Theatre's doing four shows in Hollywood the week of 10/14 and I can't go because, you know, that's 1200 miles from here. And they're talking about having actual new material too, for once. But we do have the V3 to look forward to. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 11:22:30 -0700 From: "Nectar At Any Cost!" Subject: Re: "Follow The Money" it's way time-consuming. but i'll work on responses when i'm able... the page discusses this: it tracks with the re-introduction of DDT into the marketplace. but the decline began *before* the introduction of the vaccine. check also the graph at the bottom of the page, and note there the striking correlation between DDT production and polio. coupling this with *every one* of the other diseases, which were unambiguously either entirely or almost entirely eradicated *before* the introduction of a vaccine; how is the conclusion that vaccines are either ineffective or unnecessary anything other than obvious? not asking this rhetorically. as i say, if somebody will explain to me how it is that i may be misinterpreting the data, i'd be more than willing to listen. <> but it's not as amorphous as it sounds as though you're thinking it is. they've enumerated in painstaking detail the necessary factors for good health. goes far beyond just "diet and exercise" (and remember that the NH conception of a healthy diet is far, far different from the mainstream conception); to things like adequate fresh air, pure water, sunshine, adequate sleep (as in: as much as the body cares for -- no alarm clocks, no stimulants), absence of stress, emotional poise, and others. the point being that it's not just "ah, lifestlye...yeah, that's the ticket". it's: tell me what you're doing, and it shouldn't be difficult to determine which of these activities has brought about sub-optimal health. there's much more to say about the purpose of disease; but probably best to again link to shelton's *Orthopathy*, for those who may be interested. (a PDF). <> i've already coneded the point with regards to drugs. i'd thought that vaccines were a one-size-fits-all deal, both in terms of frequency and dosage? if not, then, apologies. but of course, this bolsters the more important point: the medical industry has no fucking idea whatsoever how to "cure" or prevent disease. yet it uses the population as its guinea pigs. thousands upon thousands of whom are each year illed and killed using its products in the prescribed manner. and they're laughing all the way to the fucking bank. . fegs helping fegs. that's what it's all about. but why do you say "If, *IF*"? has it ever *not* failed? but, as i say, if it's the latter, then we *must* be able to explain and control for the discrepancy. just repeating from my previous post: if we can't predict in exactly which cases exposure will result in symptoms, then we have no idea what role, if any, exposure may or may not play in the expression of symptoms. and, again repeating, as bacteria mutate to suit their terrain, we don't even know what the correlation is. yet, it's assumed, against all logic, that the germ theory is proven fact. well, so long as i'm writing, i can't resist responding to... uhm...because exposure does not cause sickness, maybe? also, from the piece: >> Were it not for acute disease, man's present mode of living would produce far more physical degeneracy than exists at present, and would produce it much earlier in life. << the point is that the *suppression* of acute disease leads to chronic disease. but the larger point is that "man's present mode of living" results in acute, and, ultimately, chronic, disease. if you give some examples, i'll try to address them when i have the time. of course, i'm still waiting for you to explain what the purpose of lobbying is, if it has no effect upon policy... but, whatever. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 13:56:26 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: "Follow The Money" On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 1:22 PM, Nectar At Any Cost! wrote: > > < be in health, and those with un-healthy lifestyles tend to be sickly. we > know that people with *very* healthy lifestyles don't get sick, ever.>> > > lifestyle wasn't healthy enough. See, NH vindicated again! Satisfying, > perhaps, but empty.> > > but it's not as amorphous as it sounds as though you're thinking it is. > they've enumerated in painstaking detail the necessary factors for good > health. goes far beyond just "diet and exercise" (and remember that the NH > conception of a healthy diet is far, far different from the mainstream > conception); to things like adequate fresh air, pure water, sunshine, > adequate sleep (as in: as much as the body cares for -- no alarm clocks, no > stimulants), absence of stress, emotional poise, and others. I think we can all agree that this is largely correct: health is not just a matter of avoiding some things, or treating symptoms; it's about the quality of one's whole life. And much of the way our lives are organized mitigate against such quality. > > > but of course, this bolsters the more important point: the medical industry > has no fucking idea whatsoever how to "cure" or prevent disease. yet it > uses the population as its guinea pigs. thousands upon thousands of whom > are each year illed and killed using its products in the prescribed manner. > and they're laughing all the way to the fucking bank. > . > See, I think this oversimplifies. I'm sure there are plenty of greedy bastards who truly don't give a rat's ass about anything but the bulge in their wallets. I'm sure there are plenty of other people who are too shortsighted to recognize that the way they live negatively affects others. But I'm also sure there are plenty of people in the industry who genuinely do care about people and try, as best they can given the knowledge and beliefs they have, to make those people's lives better. Describing *all* of them as greedy, ignorant, selfish, manipulative fools doesn't help much. I think it's usually more useful to figure out how to change a system than to change people anyway: sounds initially more complicated, but people are always more complicated. - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.wordpress.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 13:20:32 -0700 From: Carrie Galbraith Subject: Re: Robyn in the PacNo On Aug 6, 2009, at 9:51 AM, kevin studyvin wrote: > > Now I'm just pissed because the Firesign Theatre's doing four shows in > Hollywood the week of 10/14 and I can't go because, you know, > that's 1200 > miles from here. And they're talking about having actual new > material too, > for once. My sister and I went to their 25 year reunion tour and it WAS annoying to have the audience follow word-for-word when they tried to do a couple of old skits. Then they pulled out a "Lost Comedy" from Shakespeare. It was very refreshing and funny! So sad they are not coming north. - - c - ---------------------------------------------------------------- "No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session" Mark Twain - ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 16:22:05 -0400 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: Re: "Follow The Money" Nectar At Any Cost! wrote: > > but the decline began *before* the introduction of the vaccine. check also > the graph at the bottom of the page, and note there the striking > correlation between DDT production and polio. I can also point you to a graph showing the almost perfect correlation between the drop in US total highway fatalities against Mexican fresh lemon imports, 1996-2000. r^2 = 0.97 for that one. Stewart ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 17:11:14 -0400 From: Great Quail Subject: REAP: John Hughes ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 14:28:33 -0700 From: Jason Brown Subject: Re: REAP: John Hughes wow, i was just reading about this documentary this morning: http://www.dontyouforgetaboutmethemovie.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 17:30:36 -0400 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: Re: REAP: John Hughes does that just mean that the eighties died a little? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 14:59:10 -0700 From: kevin studyvin Subject: Re: REAP: John Hughes On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 2:30 PM, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > does that just mean that the eighties died a little? > The eighties will never die. Unfortunately. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 15:07:06 -0700 From: Carrie Galbraith Subject: Re: WWEAD? (What Would Eb's Ass Do?) On Aug 6, 2009, at 1:28 AM, Sebastian Hagedorn wrote: > --On 3. August 2009 12:16:14 -0700 Nectar At Any Cost! > wrote: > >> > "The >> Wages of Fear" are even better movies - at least in my faulty memory> >> >> *Wages* is indeed awesome. i find *The Killing* overrated, however. > > I didn't like it as much when I first saw it, but it keeps getting > better on repeat viewings. We are talking the original "Wages of Fear" right? The french production with Yves Montand? The remake was OK but the original - stunning! The scene where he's sitting in the cab of one of the trucks and is rolling a cigarette - it's pure cinema. Oops - I'm gushing. Must be due to my head being deep in film books right now for an essay I am trying to write. I am dreaming film these days... Be Seeing You, - - c - --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Let us develop a kind of dangerous unselfishness." Martin Luther King Jr. - --------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 20:47:35 -0400 From: Marc Subject: Re: "Follow The Money" Nectar At Any Cost! wrote: > > vaccine.> > > but the decline began *before* the introduction of the vaccine. check also > the graph at the bottom of the page, and note there the striking > correlation between DDT production and polio. Not so striking: The peak of DDT consumption in the US occurred in 1959 in terms of tonnage according to EPA documentation: http://www.epa.gov/history/topics/ddt/DDT.pdf. So DDT was still going strong while polio was basically stopped in its tracks. > coupling this with *every > one* of the other diseases, which were unambiguously either entirely or > almost entirely eradicated *before* the introduction of a vaccine; how is > the conclusion that vaccines are either ineffective or unnecessary anything > other than obvious? See above--you can't couple DDT usage and the vaccine. It doesn't work that way when you get out into actual reputable data sources. > < clockwork", prevent disease in all who take them; and drugs are supposed > to, "like clockwork", cure disease in all who eat them. no "generalities" > and "probabilities" here?>> > > > > i've already coneded the point with regards to drugs. i'd thought that > vaccines were a one-size-fits-all deal, both in terms of frequency and > dosage? if not, then, apologies. > > but of course, this bolsters the more important point: the medical industry > has no fucking idea whatsoever how to "cure" or prevent disease. yet it > uses the population as its guinea pigs. thousands upon thousands of whom > are each year illed and killed using its products in the prescribed manner. > and they're laughing all the way to the fucking bank. > . When was the last time you saw, say, a deformed nose due to syphillis (or insanity caused by it)? How about the last major outbreak of whooping cough? Hodgekin's Disease used to be a death sentence--now 90% of cases caught before they advance seriously are cured, while before only one in 20 would survive five years before succumbing? This view that when it comes to diseases like this we "have no fucking idea" and that people are making out like bandits from researching these sorts of diseases is a really distorted view of reality. > They are an application of germ theory, not its proof. If, *IF* the > application fails> > > but why do you say "If, *IF*"? has it ever *not* failed? With polio, as a matter of fact, Koch's postulates were followed. They isolated the virus from monkey brain cells, grew it in culture, and injected it into healthy monkeys, killing some and making others simply ill with polio. This, by the way, has been repeated with a multitude of diseases. > but this application of it is faulty.> > > but, as i say, if it's the latter, then we *must* be able to explain and > control for the discrepancy. just repeating from my previous post: if we > can't predict in exactly which cases exposure will result in symptoms, then > we have no idea what role, if any, exposure may or may not play in the > expression of symptoms. We know what causes clouds to form, and we know how storm fronts form, and we can even see them on satellite images, and yet the weatherman is still wrong a certain percentage of time. You just have to learn to live with the fact that science is designed to provide a certain degree of certainty when it comes to complex systems just like any other statistical analysis is. I know you want things all nice and cut and dried, but it doesn't work that way. > and, again repeating, as bacteria mutate to suit their terrain, we don't > even know what the correlation is. yet, it's assumed, against all logic, > that the germ theory is proven fact. It's not assumed any more than evolution is assumed or gravity is assumed--there is a huge body of scientific evidence that demonstrates that it is fact. > well, so long as i'm writing, i can't resist responding to... > > > reduction in cancer death rates, so if they believe it why would they not > go around injecting people with smallpox (or at least deliberately > infecting people with it)? It would be for the greater good, as the > website points out: > http://naturalhygienesociety.org/review/0801/common_cold.html> > > uhm...because exposure does not cause sickness, maybe? also, from the > piece: > >>> Were it not for acute disease, man's present mode of living would > produce far more physical degeneracy than exists at present, and would > produce it much earlier in life. << > > the point is that the *suppression* of acute disease leads to chronic > disease. but the larger point is that "man's present mode of living" > results in acute, and, ultimately, chronic, disease. You could more easily eliminate the qualifiers and be accurate. Living results in acute and ultimately chronic disease. It's not a present mode as much as "this is how it is and has always been to a greater or lesser degree" thing. While you can posit that there is a lifestyle utopia to be had out there, no one has ever demonstrated it through lifestyle alone. > complete and total non-sensical crap.> > > if you give some examples, i'll try to address them when i have the time. > of course, i'm still waiting for you to explain what the purpose of > lobbying is, if it has no effect upon policy... but, whatever. Why would I want to argue your straw man? Marc ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V17 #213 ********************************