From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V17 #122 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Monday, April 20 2009 Volume 17 : Number 122 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: reap ["Stewart C. Russell" ] FZ [Luther Wills-Dudich ] Re: zappa plays zappa and political correctness [Steve Schiavo ] Re: zappa plays zappa and political correctness [Great Quail ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 07:36:02 -0400 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: Re: reap 2fs wrote: > Ladies and gentlemen, I give you...cow-based ASCII art! Ah, it's just what pbmtoascii gives you. # ## # # ####### # ## # ########## ## ## ###### # # ### ## ####### # # ########### # ######## ## # # ## ###### # ## #### ### ############# ####### ## # ## # ###### # ############ # ########## ## ###### # ## # ## ####### ############ ##### ########## ###### # ## # ## ############# ### ## ########## ################ # ### ## ##### ############### ######### ############## ## ## ## ################ ## ###### ##################### # ## # ## ############ ##################### ############ # ## ## ## ## ##### ## ############################### ## # ## ############ ### ################### ########### # ## ## ### ######### # #### ########### ####### ######## ## ## ############## ## #### ### #### ## ##### ####### ## # # ############ ##### ## #### ## ##### ######## ##### # ## ############### ####### ## ### #### # ###### ###### # # ############ #### ## ## #### ## # ## ####### ##### ## ######################## # # # # ## ############## ## # ############### ## ## ## # # # # ############ ## ################# ### ## # ## # ## ###### ##### ## ################ #### ## # # # # ## ########### ## ### ############ ## ##### # # ## # ###### #### # ## ####### #### #### ## # # # # # ## ############# # ## ############## ### #### ## # # ## ## ########### ## ################# ### ## # # # # ## ########### # ############## ##### ## ## # # ## ## ###### ### # ########### ##### ### #### # # # ## # ########## ## ################# ############ # ## ################ ## #### ######### ################ # ############# #### # ############### ####### ##### ## ## ################# # # ############ ## ##### ## # ## ### #### #### ### ## ################ #### ## ##### #### ## ### ########### # #### ########### ## ######### ### # ####### ########## # # ############# ## # #### # # ## # # ## #### ##### ## ############# ## ### # # #### # ## # ######### ## ############### # ### ## ## ## # ## # ## # #### #### # ################### ## # ## ## # ## # ### ##### # ######### ### # ### # # ## ### ## # # ### ##### ## # ################ ## ## # ## # ## ## # ## ##### # ## ########### ## ## ## # ##### # # ### ##### # ################ ## ## ## ## ## # ## ##### # # ### ###### ### ## ## ## ## ### ## ## # ##### # # ####### ## ### ## ## # # ### # ## ## ## ##### # ## ### # ###### # ## ## # ###### ## ## ## # ##### # # ### ###### #### ## ## # ####### # ## ##### # ## # ##### ####### # ## ## # ### ## ## ## ##### # # # ##### ##### ### ### # ## # # # ## # # ##### ## # ########## #### ## ## # # ## ## ## ##### # # ########## ### ## ### ## # ## # # ##### # ## ############## ## # ########## ## # # ##### ## ## ## ############## ## ###### #### # ##### # # ######## ### ## ## ## # # # ##### # ## ## #### ###### ### # ### ### ## # # ##### # # ## # ########### ## # # ## ## ## ##### ## ## # ####### ### ## # # ## ## ## ## # # #### # ## # ############# ## # # # ### # ## # ##### ### ## ############ ## ## # # ## ## # ##### # ## # ############### # # ## # # # #### ## # # # ##### ##### ## ## ## # # ## ##### # ## ## ################# # ## # # # ##### ## # ## # ########## ##### ## # ### # #### # # ## ### ######## #### #### ## ## # ##### # ## ## ## ############## ## # ## ## # ##### # ## # #### ############ ### ######### ## # #### # # # #### # ########### #### # ## ##### ##### # ## ###### ######## ###### ###### ######## #### # ## ## ### ## ####### ###### ## #### ##### #### ####### ###### ######## ####### ###### ######### ## ## ######## ### ######### ############ ## ### ### ## ## # ##### ## ## ### ## ######## ##### ####### # ######## ######## ###### ##### ### ###### ### ## ############# # ########### #### ## ##### ### ##### #### ## ####### ####### ###### ######### ## ### ###### ########### ### ## ## ########## ######### ############### ####### ##### ## ###### #### ########## ### ####### #### ###### ############# # ################ ### # ## ####### ####### ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 05:48:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Luther Wills-Dudich Subject: FZ Does anyone know if there is a live recording of "Watermelon in Easter Hay" without the "who gives a fuck anyway?" during the intro on the Joe's Garage 3 album? That is quite possibly the saddest piece of music ever recorded...even if it is not in D minor. :) - -Luther (delurking) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 23:58:55 -0700 From: kevin studyvin Subject: Re: zappa plays zappa and political correctness Yeah, what he said. Also, "A Watermelon In Easter Hay" rules. On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 10:40 PM, 2fs wrote: > On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 7:25 PM, minister of misinformation < > archive@bigpond.net.au> wrote: > > > I don't believe that we often discuss the output of Mr Frank Z , > > > > of course franks music has always been controversial and a bit like > > rob crumb, the ladies almost universally hate him, I'm in two minds, > > I know a lot of his songs lyrics are seemingly misogenistic , purile > > or offensive, but Frank didn't spare anyone, he flung shit at all > > comers, men and women alike and I have to admire him for that. Also > > he HATED republicans with a vengeance, so I am prepared to throw away > > my liberal feelings in his case and just go with the flow. discuss > > anyone ? > > > Musically, there's very little question for me. I mean, he didn't get rock > post-1977...but it hardly mattered, given how much else he did "get". > > As for the rest: I think at some point he became a little less > equal-opportunity satirist and a little more crankish and, sadly, less > tolerant and accepting than he should have been. In his later years, the > digs at women and gays, however papered over with "satire," tended to cut > more deeply than they should have, betraying a real sense of discomfort > with > certain aspects of feminism and gay sexuality. And unlike with some of his > other targets, he never seemed to nuance the issues there: certainly, one > could legitimately criticize *aspects* of feminism or gay liberation w/o > dismissing the whole thing (and at times it seems that's what he did). The > "puerility," I think, was more a function of his amusement that other > people > (in his mind, it was "other people" not him) were so freaked out by basic > bodily functions: it's puerile, sure, but also purist, in the unusual sense > of being uncorrupted by the disdain and distaste for the body and its > functions we're socialized into as adults. > > In some ways he was a very traditional dude, just another middle-aged > Italian guy. Who was it posted that link to Dweezil talking about that > astonishing guitar rig he had? In the comments area below, some idiot said > something to the effect that Dweezil called his father "Frank" because FZ > was supposedly never there for him, being such a workaholic. I call > bullshit: first, I think he called him "Frank" because FZ was not one to > stand on ceremony of parental privilege or respect, but if FZ wasn't there > for his kids, they seem to have turned out pretty damned fine, and they > seem > pretty normal, and devoted and respectful of his legacy. I figure FZ and > Gail must have done a pretty good job: it must have been hard, sometimes, > being the son or daughter of Frank Zappa, and yet they don't seem like > weirdo egomaniacs at all. (Mostly based on Dweezil, and what I've read (not > that much) of his other kids.) > > Anyway: who knows, maybe over time, if he'd lived, he'd have moved past > that > crankiness...but sadly, I fear it would have only intensified. I'd hate to > imagine him as some cranky libertarian zealot...but it's one possible > future > he might have had. > > But his music: like it or not, it's just incredibly impressive the range of > material he mastered, and that he did that mostly sans any formal training. > It's pretty hard to find anyone to compare him to in that way - and I think > his musical rep will only grow over time. > > > > - -- > > ...Jeff Norman > > The Architectural Dance Society > http://spanghew.wordpress.com - ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V17 #121 ******************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 07:34:16 -0500 From: Steve Schiavo Subject: Re: zappa plays zappa and political correctness On Apr 20, 2009, at 12:40 AM, 2fs wrote: > But his music: like it or not, it's just incredibly impressive the > range of > material he mastered, and that he did that mostly sans any formal > training. > It's pretty hard to find anyone to compare him to in that way - and > I think > his musical rep will only grow over time. There are already several albums covering some of his instrumental (mostly) music. - - Steve __________ I can't resist an anime that includes a small, cute, violence prone girl with a scythe. - John ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 07:04:40 -0700 From: kevin studyvin Subject: Re: FZ On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 5:48 AM, Luther Wills-Dudich wrote: > Does anyone know if there is a live recording of "Watermelon in Easter Hay" > without the "who gives a fuck anyway?" during the intro on the Joe's Garage > 3 > album? > That is quite possibly the saddest piece of music ever recorded...even > if it is not in D minor. :) > -Luther (delurking) > If you go to the 1988 Guitar! set... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 10:43:55 -0400 From: Great Quail Subject: Re: zappa plays zappa and political correctness Jeff writes, > Musically, there's very little question for me. I mean, he didn't get rock > post-1977...but it hardly mattered, given how much else he did "get". I think a key to understanding Zappa's music is that Zappa was less interested in Rock and Roll's future than its past... > As for the rest: I think at some point he became a little less > equal-opportunity satirist and a little more crankish and, sadly, less > tolerant and accepting than he should have been. I am not sure I can muster a complete defense on this account; I think you are probably right for the most part, but I'd like to add a few things... > In his later years, the > digs at women and gays, however papered over with "satire," tended to cut > more deeply than they should have, betraying a real sense of discomfort with > certain aspects of feminism and gay sexuality. First of all, I think that the main targets of Frank Zappa's satire are people who (1) have no sense of humor, and (2) are hypocrites. The latter includes people who cannot admit to themselves or others what they actually are. For instance, the subject of "Bobby Brown" is skewered so savagely not because he drifts into acts of increasingly transgressive sexuality, but because he thinks he represents the "American dream," and moved from possibly date-raping a cheerleader to ultimately getting erotic thrills only by being dominated by by a sexually-ambiguous "dyke named Freddie." Does this place "Bobby Brown" on the satiric level of something like Jethro Tull's "Hunting Girl?" No -- there's simple potty humor and "puerility" in there as well, which is one of the reasons some people recoil at Zappa. Now, having said that -- I do agree with you to a certain extent -- I think that Zappa was never completely comfortable with homosexuality, and some of his "satire" tends to focus on gay acts and gay people, rather than parodic recontextualization of those acts, the hypocrisy of the closet, or the effete character of certain strains of political correctness. I see less to agree with regarding Zappa's alleged misogyny. I think Zappa's not a misogynist per se -- I think he is completely misanthropic across the board. He seems to enjoy mocking men, women, and all the various forms of sexual and political struggles and relationships between them. I just think it's more jarring to hear a song like "Catholic Girls" than "Disco Boy" because we are conditioned to be more "polite" about certain subjects. And songs like "Pinky" and "Crew Slut" may, on the surface, seem misogynistic and perhaps even hateful; but I find it hard to ignore the savage, mocking undercurrent directed at those song's male characters. During the recent Democratic primary, a prominent feminist contributor to Huffington Post railed at Matt Taibbi for writing that Hilary Clinton's arms were "flabby." Would he have written that about a man? In response, Taibbi posted excerpts from over a dozen cases where de described the features of objectionable male politicians in words that made "flabby" seem nearly a compliment. Still, she was not satisfied, and insisted that Taibbi was misogynistic, and needed to be more careful, and so on. In my opinion, being generally nasty does not make one a misogynist -- specifically hating women, working to undermine their power and authority, and being only able to relate to them as objectified sex objects makes one a misogynist. I don't see that in Zappa. > And unlike with some of his > other targets, he never seemed to nuance the issues there: certainly, one > could legitimately criticize *aspects* of feminism or gay liberation w/o > dismissing the whole thing (and at times it seems that's what he did). I am genuinely curious -- do you have any examples of Zappa simply mocking feminism or gay liberation? As opposed to some of the less tolerable political aspects of those movements? Because as I said, I agree with you to a limited extent, I just don't think he's as bad as you state -- or I should say, I do find those nuances in his work which you find lacking. But it's possible I overlooked some real shockers! > In some ways he was a very traditional dude, just another middle-aged > Italian guy. ...Who had a sharp dislike of hippies, drugs, and musicians unions! But he was a traditional middle-aged Italian guy who also composed classical music and worshiped avant-garde composers such as Varese. > Anyway: who knows, maybe over time, if he'd lived, he'd have moved past that > crankiness...but sadly, I fear it would have only intensified. I'd hate to > imagine him as some cranky libertarian zealot...but it's one possible future > he might have had. I agree -- that is certainly one future. Another, equally plausible future has him becoming a classical composer, and possibly become less cranky as the 90s and 00's put to rest the humorless PC/PMRC crap of the 80s. It's hard to see Zappa required to testify in front of congress because of potty-mouthed lyrics in these more ironic/post-ironic times....? I like to think Zappa would be -- guardedly -- pleased by Obama, whose victory represents the (momentary?) defeat of the neocons as well as Boomer-style PC/liberalism. Not to mention the grass-roots aspect of it all -- Don't forget, Zappa featured voter registration tables at all of his concerts. I saw him in Pennsylvania shortly before he died -- and the League of Women's Voters staffed his voter registration tables. During a song break, he announced, "I have heard that the League of Women Voters who are running the voter registration tables have objected to my sign, 'Lick Bush in 92.' I would like to assure them that this sign is not political, but refers only to oral sex." To me, that's Zappa in a nutshell. > But his music: like it or not, it's just incredibly impressive the range of > material he mastered, and that he did that mostly sans any formal training. > It's pretty hard to find anyone to compare him to in that way - and I think > his musical rep will only grow over time. It seems to me that Zappa's latter work was tending to increasingly more sophisticated levels of "classical" music, and I remain convinced that, had he survived cancer, and had he survived the synclavier, he would have pursued the path laid down by "Yellow Shark" more than anything else. - --Quail ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 11:53:26 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: zappa plays zappa and political correctness On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 9:43 AM, Great Quail wrote: > Jeff writes, > > > > > In his later years, the > > digs at women and gays, however papered over with "satire," tended to cut > > more deeply than they should have, betraying a real sense of discomfort > with > > certain aspects of feminism and gay sexuality. > > First of all, I think that the main targets of Frank Zappa's satire are > people who (1) have no sense of humor, and (2) are hypocrites. The latter > includes people who cannot admit to themselves or others what they actually > are. For instance, the subject of "Bobby Brown" is skewered so savagely not > because he drifts into acts of increasingly transgressive sexuality, but > because he thinks he represents the "American dream," and moved from > possibly date-raping a cheerleader to ultimately getting erotic thrills > only > by being dominated by by a sexually-ambiguous "dyke named Freddie." > > Does this place "Bobby Brown" on the satiric level of something like Jethro > Tull's "Hunting Girl?" No -- there's simple potty humor and "puerility" in > there as well, which is one of the reasons some people recoil at Zappa. I'd agree. Below... > > I see less to agree with regarding Zappa's alleged misogyny. I think > Zappa's > not a misogynist per se -- I think he is completely misanthropic across the > board. He seems to enjoy mocking men, women, and all the various forms of > sexual and political struggles and relationships between them. I just think > it's more jarring to hear a song like "Catholic Girls" than "Disco Boy" > because we are conditioned to be more "polite" about certain subjects. And > songs like "Pinky" and "Crew Slut" may, on the surface, seem misogynistic > and perhaps even hateful; but I find it hard to ignore the savage, mocking > undercurrent directed at those song's male characters. I'm thinking more of something like "Planet of the Baritone Women": while his satiric target might be described as the irony that women strove to overcome oppression only to re-embody the worst aspects of petty power-playing business drones, that that idea is put across via stereotypes involving the alleged "masculinity" of "dykes" (as if lesbianism is part of the businesswoman's necessary repertoire!) suggests a certain discomfort with powerful women beyond the ostensible target of his satire. > > In my opinion, being generally nasty does not make one a misogynist -- > specifically hating women, working to undermine their power and authority, > and being only able to relate to them as objectified sex objects makes one > a > misogynist. I don't see that in Zappa. I don't think that's the only kind of misogyny - and I think "misogyny" is probably a little strong for the problem he had with some aspects of feminism. I think he just didn't understand certain aspects of feminism, couldn't see their value or relevance to women, etc., and was uncomfortable with some of it. Same goes with gay sexuality: intellectually, he seemed to understand the idea of sexual freedom (as well as the way that waving the flag of "freedom" can be its own trap), but again, there seemed also a certain discomfort there with some aspects of gay sexuality. I can't point to anything specific (my mind is thrashed right now: nearly done working with a ton of dubious student papers, and taking a little breather prior to lunch) but, on both of these issues, it's really more a global impression than something I can empirically point to ... at least not w/o having time to go through his catalog. Don't have that time right now! When Aaron Mandel was still on the list (or still posting to it, at any rate), there was a period when he dove fullbore into Zappa - and while he enjoyed a lot of it, I remember him being fairly eloquent on these shortcomings of Frank. But I don't have time right now to call up those conversations - and I don't remember if they were onlist or offlist anyway. And you're right to bring up the more admirable aspects of FZ's public persona as well - I didn't mean to imply he was only a grumpy, clueless crank! He was a complex man, and I think generally a decent one, despite his caustic aspects - which, like a lot of cynicism, were ultimately rooted in a thwarted optimism and concern. If you don't care, and don't think anything decent is even possible, you're not going to be cynical - you'll either ignore whatever you're pessimistic about or be straight-up nihilist about it. - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.wordpress.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 11:23:27 -0700 From: "Nectar At Any Cost!" Subject: My name is "Eb", and I am probably the best woodsman in Belize oh, i just love the former (in case that weren't clear). but then, i was never subjected to overexposure to the latter. some other thoughts on the record... "What You Is" and "Your Head Here": gotta love the female backing vocals. "Buzz! Buzz!" "Your Head Here": digging the organ! when's the last time robyn put one into the mix? "I'm Falling": as has been mentioned here many a time, the harmonies are too awesome to be believed. by the way, is he singing "myth america", or "miss america" (with a bit of a lisp)? see, i don't want to look it up, 'cause i kinda like not knowing (but wouldn't mind hearing others' theories about why it must be one or the other). "Sixteen Years": his voice sounds better here than it has since...maybe even *before* *Elixir*. how'd that happen? "TLC": robyn bringing horns and strings *both* in the same song (let alone the same album)? hear! "Goodnight Oslo": my fave track on the record. not exactly sure why. something to do with its haunting-ness, i think. er, could somebody pretty-please upload the two bonus track to somewheres? this album's too damned brief! overall, i'm just flabbergasted by how much i love this album. i would never, ever have guessed this achievement to've been possible. i'm even wondering where it ranks in all time rock albums made by an artist in his 50s? (of course, it may be DQed when one considers the rest of the band are in their 40s.) and so, now, it's time for another edition of "Fuckin' Awesome Idea I Just Had Right Now"; in which i posit the following: An Evening With The R.E.M. Orchestra. said orchestra to be comprised of stipe, buck, mills, rieflin, mccaughey, and hitchcock. no opening act; but instead two (say) hour-and-a-half-long sets of alternating hitchcock and r.e.m. compositions -- much like the so-called "grant lee hitchcock" shows. stage it in mid-sized theatres; with perhaps two or three shows per city (no-repeat, natch). well, i guess this doesn't leave much for stipey to do during robyn's songs, excepting of course the obvious vocal duties in "Dark Green Energy", "She Doesn't Exist", and "Uncorrected Personality Traits". he could maybe perform some dance routines (or what). let's make this shit happen! <> not even! yes, clearly wesley willis can not and shall not be topped. but i think wilco are a very close second; unless i'm missing somebody very obvious? at any rate, i prefer wilco to cheap trick. well, it almost pains me to say it, but...i probably prefer the pumpkins to cheap trick. as it happens, just now listening to this new live wilco disc, which it sounds frickin' *great*. see, if fuckin' radiohead were smart, they'd too embark upon a campaign to release a live album for every tour. as was natalie jane, of course. of whom i was reminded recently, smog-fan that she was, upon listening to the new callahan disc. i'm happy to report that it is a nice return to form; after the suckness that was *Woke On A Whale-Heart*. pour vous, la monde! and, especially considering you've dropped a "merde"-bomb in your request. kick my ass in a week or two if i've not gotten around to it before then. but what happened to the recording you made with your "awesome stereo microphone"? (for those who weren't present, this may sound like sarcastic needling. in fact, those are the words brian used to describe to the friskers what was in his coat -- this was before word'd come down that robyn was a recording-friendly type o' dude.) first veils recording of the current tour is up at dime! . also, first two queensyche shows of their tour. i don't like the new record at all; but they're playing significant chunks ("suites") of both *Empire* and *Rage For Order*. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 14:54:28 -0400 From: Jeremy Osner Subject: Re: My name is "Eb", and I am probably the best woodsman in Belize Eddy thinks: > "What You Is" and "Your Head Here": gotta love the female backing vocals. > "Buzz! Buzz!" Totally -- one of her vocals on "Your Head Here" is almost my favorite moment on the album. If we do not say all words, however absurd, we will never say the essential words. -- Saramago http://www.readin.com/blog/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 16:18:14 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: My name is "Eb", and I am probably the best woodsman in Belize On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 1:23 PM, Nectar At Any Cost! wrote: > associations of a guitar teacher who taught the most dreadful songs, > including "ghost riders in the sky"> I don't think there's any relation, other than the coincidental similarity of beat and the word "sky"... > > > and so, now, it's time for another edition of "Fuckin' Awesome Idea I Just > Had Right Now"; in which i posit the following: > > An Evening With The R.E.M. Orchestra. said orchestra to be comprised of > stipe, buck, mills, rieflin, mccaughey, and hitchcock. no opening act; but > instead two (say) hour-and-a-half-long sets of alternating hitchcock and > r.e.m. compositions -- much like the so-called "grant lee hitchcock" shows. > > stage it in mid-sized theatres; with perhaps two or three shows per city > (no-repeat, natch). > > well, i guess this doesn't leave much for stipey to do during robyn's > songs, excepting of course the obvious vocal duties in "Dark Green Energy", > "She Doesn't Exist", and "Uncorrected Personality Traits". he could maybe > perform some dance routines (or what). Agreed that this would indeed be a peak of awesomosity. Stipe could add vocals to other tracks - and he does play a bit of rhythm guitar, maybe he could fill in bits here and there, add some tambourine, etc. Or he could take a break periodically. The one thing V3 lacks (as I implied in my "Sean Nelson for V4" post) is someone to do the third vocal parts that a lot of Robyn's songs, particularly the SB and RH&E songs, end up missing in the V3 format. Unless someone wants to give Mr. Buck a mic (I'm guessing the man does not sing, at all.) - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.wordpress.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 11:24:14 +1200 From: James Dignan Subject: Re: Best band from Illinois Coulda been worse - coulda been Styx. Illinois, while I'd hesitate to use the words "cultural desert", doesn't seem to have many big name acts from memory. I would've thought that an earlier band like Earth Wind & Fire might've seen off Wilco, though. James (Ministry? The Jesus Lizard?) - -- James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.- =-.-=-.-=-.- You talk to me as if from a distance .-=-.-=-.-=-. -=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time .-=- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V17 #122 ********************************