From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V17 #113 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Monday, April 13 2009 Volume 17 : Number 113 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Philly and New York Robyn shows [2fs ] Re: Philly and New York Robyn shows [Rex ] Re: Philly and New York Robyn shows [2fs ] Re: Philly and New York Robyn shows [Rex ] Re: Philly and New York Robyn shows [2fs ] Re: Philly and New York Robyn shows [Rex ] Re: Philly and New York Robyn shows [m swedene ] 100% coriander ["Stewart C. Russell" ] Re: Philly and New York Robyn shows [kevin studyvin ] Re: Philly and New York Robyn shows [m swedene ] Re: One of those "Holy Crap!" moments [James Dignan ] Re: iTunes Audiobooks Question [HSatterfld@aol.com] thanks for the warning [Jill Brand ] Re: thanks for the warning [Rex ] Re: thanks for the warning ["Stewart C. Russell" ] BeatlesTube [Jeremy Osner ] Re: BeatlesTube [HwyCDRrev@aol.com] Magic Window toy [djini@voicenet.com] Re: Magic Window toy [Jeremy Osner ] Re: thanks for the warning [Rex ] Re: Magic Window toy [lep ] Re: Magic Window toy [Jeremy Osner ] Pretension in rock [Great Quail ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 13:22:20 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: Philly and New York Robyn shows Quail being meticulous about these things, I rarely get to call him on them...but I enjoyed this one: On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 12:55 PM, Great Quail wrote: > > except that he's a jerk, and now I'm driving my Saturn coup on the deserted > highway over the mountain and toward the stars I rather like the idea of a depressed folk-singer taking over Saturn - perhaps that will be the subject of the Decemberists' next concept album... - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.wordpress.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 12:29:39 -0700 From: Rex Subject: Re: Philly and New York Robyn shows On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 10:55 AM, Great Quail wrote: > > Oh, by the way -- I hadn't seen this mentioned here yet, perhaps I missed > it, but it seems Robyn and the Venus 3 are opening for, as Robyn said -- > "our nephews and nieces, The Decemberists" -- on the "Hazards of Love" > tour! > Oh, shit. If this is going to be the only way to see the V3 in CA this year.... I'm not sure quite what I'll do. This tour *needs* a California stop. Am I gonna have to start a Facebook group or something *drastic* like that*? Listening to the recent shows**... man, this sounds so great. I do agree with Quail about McCoughey... I actually liked him very well as a presence on the last V3 tour, but I think he's found his role perfectly at this point. I'd specifically cite "Out of the Picture" in this respect. The recording comes on, and I'm excited to hear the song, giddy even... and then after a bit, I realized that Scott's not playing anything remotely like the amazing melodic bassline on the studio version. And yet, especially in the context of the power-pop psych vibe of these set-lists, it sounds awesome... maybe even perfect... and I give myself over to it entirely. Back to opening for the Decemberists, though... I think the last time I went to see a show for the opening artists without being a fan of the headliner was a long time ago, when I went to see Velocity Girl opening for the Posies; I eventually became a pretty devoted Posies fan (although not that night). The last time I *considered* going to a really *big* rock show for an opening band when I wasn't that into the headliners was way back when the Pixies opened for U2; in that case, I later regretted missing the U2 show itself when my opinion of "Achtung Baby" reversed itself from "meh" to "what was I thinking, that was their best album ever". But it must be said that it can be horrible, horrible, horrible to stand around while the adoring fans of a band you don't like rudely ignore or actively bitch about the infinitely superior opening act that you adore. I must... think on this. - -Rex *joke. **Yes, I am cheating on the Fall to listen to V3 live shows, although I haven't listened Goodnight Oslo itself yet. I'm also listening to all the current Fall shows, too. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 14:36:13 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: Philly and New York Robyn shows On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 2:29 PM, Rex wrote: > On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 10:55 AM, Great Quail >wrote: > > > > > Oh, by the way -- I hadn't seen this mentioned here yet, perhaps I missed > > it, but it seems Robyn and the Venus 3 are opening for, as Robyn said -- > > "our nephews and nieces, The Decemberists" -- on the "Hazards of Love" > > tour! > > > > Oh, shit. If this is going to be the only way to see the V3 in CA this > year.... I'm not sure quite what I'll do. Just go. My guess is that Decemberists fans, being slavishly devoted to the Sacred Word of Colin, will worship Robyn - so there'll be no dissing of him as opening act, lest they be expelled from the Brethren and Sistren of Wint'ry Chimbley Sweeps (the secret Decemberists fan club, whose existence I am revealing here for the first time publicly). Stick around for the 'Rists (that's what their hippest fans call them - or is their fans with the biggest hips?) - maybe you'll even like them. If you don't, you can leave, having seen Robyn & the V3. - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.wordpress.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 13:44:01 -0700 From: Rex Subject: Re: Philly and New York Robyn shows On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 12:36 PM, 2fs wrote: > On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 2:29 PM, Rex wrote: > >> On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 10:55 AM, Great Quail > >wrote: >> >> > >> > Oh, by the way -- I hadn't seen this mentioned here yet, perhaps I >> missed >> > it, but it seems Robyn and the Venus 3 are opening for, as Robyn said -- >> > "our nephews and nieces, The Decemberists" -- on the "Hazards of Love" >> > tour! >> > >> >> Oh, shit. If this is going to be the only way to see the V3 in CA this >> year.... I'm not sure quite what I'll do. > > > Just go. My guess is that Decemberists fans, being slavishly devoted to the > Sacred Word of Colin, will worship Robyn - so there'll be no dissing of him > as opening act, lest they be expelled from the Brethren and Sistren of > Wint'ry Chimbley Sweeps (the secret Decemberists fan club, whose existence I > am revealing here for the first time publicly). > I've made that assumption before and been kind of disappointed. Grant Lee Phillips may have been involved... I'm not saying. > > > Stick around for the 'Rists (that's what their hippest fans call them - or > is their fans with the biggest hips?) - maybe you'll even like them. If you > don't, you can leave, having seen Robyn & the V3. > It's probably gotten lost along the line that I did actually useta like them pretty well. But I definitely don't see as deep a genetic connection between Meloy and RH as songwriters as most folks do... I don't think RH ever has or would feel a compulsion toward a rock opera or anything of the sort, and that's one of the things I find rather endearing about him. - -Rex > > > -- > > ...Jeff Norman > > The Architectural Dance Society > http://spanghew.wordpress.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 16:06:03 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: Philly and New York Robyn shows On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 3:44 PM, Rex wrote: > > >> Just go. My guess is that Decemberists fans, being slavishly devoted to >> the Sacred Word of Colin, will worship Robyn - so there'll be no dissing of >> him as opening act, lest they be expelled from the Brethren and Sistren of >> Wint'ry Chimbley Sweeps (the secret Decemberists fan club, whose existence I >> am revealing here for the first time publicly). >> > > I've made that assumption before and been kind of disappointed. Grant Lee > Phillips may have been involved... I'm not saying. > Yes...but Phillips does not have HIS VERY OWN CULT. > >> >> Stick around for the 'Rists (that's what their hippest fans call them - or >> is their fans with the biggest hips?) - maybe you'll even like them. If you >> don't, you can leave, having seen Robyn & the V3. >> > > It's probably gotten lost along the line that I did actually useta like > them pretty well. But I definitely don't see as deep a genetic connection > between Meloy and RH as songwriters as most folks do... I don't think RH > ever has or would feel a compulsion toward a rock opera or anything of the > sort, and that's one of the things I find rather endearing about him. > True enough - he seems to channel any such curious compulsions into bizarre cartoons, paintings, and short stories (I'm particularly fond of "The Legend of Old Bass" (on Bad Case of History). Still, I wouldn't call The Hazards of Love of "rock opera" - if anything, it's a song cycle, with Meloy having taken several ideas drawn from folk songs and woven them together into a loose narrative. For me something's a "rock opera" if it's conceivably stageable or filmable. I guess then that a "concept album" is more interior, less tied to narrative, but not as vague as merely a common theme or mood? Otherwise IODOT is a concept album, pretty clearly sharing an overall depressive, meditative mood - it's dark green autumnal. Going on, and not trying to convert you to being a latterday Decemberists fan or anything, I do wonder at the reservations so many folks have toward what is not really all that horrifyingly pretentious an idea of linking songs into some sort of narrative or story. It's one thing to criticize the results as being not all that good, musically or lyrically - but then, when someone writes a crappy song, we don't get all critical about the very idea of trying to write melodies and chord sequences. Then, let someone say they're writing poems, or working on a play, and for a lot of folks the foppish pretension of daring to try to make art fuhgawdsake is somehow offensive to contemplate. I mean, who dares call themselves "poet" or "artist" until one, perforce, is one by virtue of having published books of poetry or had exhibits dedicated to one's paintings or sculptures? Otherwise - lord how ridiculous that they imagine they're a "poet"! (Relatedly: the tendency to rule bad poetry and bad art from consideration *as* poetry or art - as if saying that something is "poetry" or is "art" is praise all by itself. These terms ought to be formal descriptors, fully capable of accommodating a range of quality from incredibly genius to, you know, Vogon poetry or Billy Corgan. It's still poetry - it's just crap poetry.) Back to not avoiding student papers again... ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.wordpress.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 14:22:02 -0700 From: Rex Subject: Re: Philly and New York Robyn shows On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 2:06 PM, 2fs wrote: > > Going on, and not trying to convert you to being a latterday Decemberists > fan or anything, I do wonder at the reservations so many folks have toward > what is not really all that horrifyingly pretentious an idea of linking > songs into some sort of narrative or story. It's one thing to criticize the > results as being not all that good, musically or lyrically - but then, when > someone writes a crappy song, we don't get all critical about the very idea > of trying to write melodies and chord sequences. That's true. But more pop songs, novels and poems have turned out pleasing to my ears than have rock operas. I also don't really hold pretentiousness qua pretentiousness against prog or rock operaticalnessosity. On the contrary, I adore a lot of stuff that many if not most folks would find horribly pretentious. It's just that the results usually sound... not to my tastes. So, like with you (well, and me) with metal, I learn that this kind of thing is probably gonna bug me, for whatever reasons of personal stupidity that I possess. And then I go and listen to something equally pretentious like "Daydream Nation" instead, because that sounds good to me. I am obviously inconsistent and nuts in my personal tastes in foibles, but in that I figure I am, quoth Robyn, "just about like everyone". (And FWIW, Billy Corgan may suffer a thousand deaths before I'd have one hair on Colin Meloy's putative one-time beard, if it were me doling out the silly medieval punishments for rock and roll sins.) - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 17:30:42 -0400 From: m swedene Subject: Re: Philly and New York Robyn shows just as a side note... Robyn and TV 3 are NOT opening all of the 'rists shows.... http://www.decemberists.com/tour.aspx right now (as per Peter Buck) it looks to be just Radio City Music Hall (NYC) June 10th since R & TV3 are playing in Brooklyn on June 11th. Mike ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 18:08:37 -0400 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: 100% coriander okay, who said they didn't like cilantro? Stewart np: Leadbelly ... lots of Leadbelly ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 15:39:16 -0700 From: kevin studyvin Subject: Re: Philly and New York Robyn shows > But it must be said that > it can be horrible, horrible, horrible to stand around while the adoring > fans of a band you don't like rudely ignore or actively bitch about the > infinitely superior opening act that you adore. I must... think on this. > > Reminiscent of Sonic Youth opening for Neil Young/Horse in Seattle on the Weld Tour and there was significant Youth-directed hostility, e.g. incessant hollering of "Faggots!" and "Fuck off back to New York!" and, of course, "Get off the fuckin'sstage and let the big boys play!" all around where I was sitting while SY ripped through an incendiary set concluding with an "Expressway To Your Skull" that morphed into feedback with Thurston & Lee grabbing their guitars and hurling themselves into each other while Kim threw her instument on the floor and punded on it...rock & roll, maaaan... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 18:49:28 -0400 From: m swedene Subject: Re: Philly and New York Robyn shows I just uploaded my video of "I've got the Hots for you" from last night..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yml9KapjvyM his voice is a bit rough and low..... he lost it by the end of the night, doing autographs takes it out of you I guess. Mike ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 12:32:46 +1200 From: James Dignan Subject: Re: One of those "Holy Crap!" moments > > Very similar to one I had the other day. Apparently, Australian Aborigines > > were not counted in the national census until 1967, gained the >vote in 1962, > > and only two have ever been elected to parliament (by way of comparison, > > Maori Sir James Carroll, a.k.a. Timi Kara, became a NZ cabinet minister in > > 1899 and was briefly acting Prime Minister in 1911). > > >Have Maori consistently been elected since? There's an anomaly in US history >(whose specifics I'm too busy to look up at the moment) in that after the >Civil War, the era of Reconstruction saw several black elected >officials...but after that, it was 75-100 years until any others were >elected. They have - though there's a weird anomaly in the NZ voting system that automatically provides seven seats for Maori only. It can be seen either as positive discrimination or as apartheid, depending on which side of the argument you listen to. But even in the non-Maori seats there are a considerable number of Maori MPs (plus, at the moment, two Indians, a Chinese woman, three Samoans, and a French Polynesian, at the very least). There is a specific Maori Party, aimed at promoting Maori rights, who have five MPs in parliament. The current highest-ranked Maori MP is Georgina Te Heuheu, who is Minister for Pacific Island Affairs. Other current Maori MPs include Dr. Pita Sharples, Tariana Turia, Tau Henare, Metiria Turei, Nanaia Mahuta, Hone Harawira, Rahui Katene, Te Ururoa Flavell, Hekia Parata, Mita Ririnui - so that's at least eleven in all (out of 121 MPs in total), and there may be others who I don't know (or can't recognise them as being Maori simply from their names!) FWIW James - -- James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.- =-.-=-.-=-.- You talk to me as if from a distance .-=-.-=-.-=-. -=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time .-=- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 19:41:25 -0500 From: michael wells Subject: Re: Philly and New York Robyn shows > I drove down to Philly on Friday night to catch the Robyn show at Johnny Brenda's, then returned to New York for the Irving Plaza show. Nice reviews, Quail - thx MW ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 21:49:52 EDT From: HSatterfld@aol.com Subject: Re: iTunes Audiobooks Question <> With Audible, at least, once you burn it to CD then you can rip the CD. I'm not sure what sort of sound quality this gets you in general, but with an audio book it probably doesn't sound any worse than it did before. I find a lot of audio books have noticeable tape hiss anyway, even if they came from a CD. **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000003) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 22:06:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Jill Brand Subject: thanks for the warning Quail wrote: "Two great nights, two great shows, and I feel pretty lucky to have been to both. I do pity you folks who have to sit through Jennifer O'Connor in Boston, though... My advice is to bring along a small token of personal happiness and clutch it through her entire set. That, or drink whiskey -- lots of whiskey." Great. Arggh. We're going tomorrow night, but I've been so sick and weak (nb: don't get pneumonia - just don't) that I'm afraid I won't make it through the show. I REALLY need to be there!! Robyn can help me to transcend the misery, I hope. But not this Jennifer O'Connor, it seems. Jill np: Culling of the Fold (which should have been on The Crane Wife) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 19:43:52 -0700 From: Rex Subject: Re: thanks for the warning On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 7:06 PM, Jill Brand wrote: > > Great. Arggh. We're going tomorrow night, but I've been so sick and weak > (nb: don't get pneumonia - just don't) My mantra since 12/1999. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 06:37:22 -0400 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: Re: thanks for the warning Rex wrote: > >> (nb: don't get pneumonia - just don't) > > My mantra since 12/1999. Yep. Had it mildly in 2007. Nasty even then. Also just lost an in-law family member to it. Went to septic shock, two weeks in intensive care, was recovering, then had a heart attack due to oxygen starvation. My sister in law, an ICU doctor, just had the awful decision of having to turn off the life support of her own mother. Stewart ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 06:43:43 -0400 From: Jeremy Osner Subject: BeatlesTube Wow, lots of Beatles videos! Handily indexed here: http://artiewayne.wordpress.com/2009/04/11/every-beatle-video-ever-made-for-free/ J If we do not say all words, however absurd, we will never say the essential words. -- Josi Saramago http://www.readin.com/blog/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 07:47:51 EDT From: HwyCDRrev@aol.com Subject: Re: BeatlesTube very cool ! my blog is "Yer Blog" http://fab4yerblog.blogspot.com/ http://robotsarestealingmyluggage.blogspot.com/ In a message dated 4/13/2009 6:51:57 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, anacreon@gmail.com writes: Wow, lots of Beatles videos! Handily indexed here: http://artiewayne.wordpress.com/2009/04/11/every-beatle-video-ever-made-for-fr ee/ **************The Average US Credit Score is 692. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221621489x1201450100/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID% 3D62%26bcd%3DAprilAvgfooterNO62) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 17:07:45 -0400 (EDT) From: djini@voicenet.com Subject: Magic Window toy Hey, I have a weird question - and this seems like a better than average place to ask it. Remember the Magic Window from Wham-O? Here's a link to refresh your memory: http://www.magicwindows.org/ Does anyone know what the hell is in that thing? Wham-O used to say "Millions of Microdium Crystals" but you know what? I think they made that up. Jeanne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 09:25:44 -0400 From: Jeremy Osner Subject: Re: Magic Window toy Oh yeah, cool -- I remember that toy. I always figured it was just fine-grained sand dyed in different colors. IIRC they made them -- or somebody else made a knock-off version in other colors besides the classic metallic blue-white. I seem to remember one in hot pink and yellow. J If we do not say all words, however absurd, we will never say the essential words. -- Saramago http://www.readin.com/blog/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 07:40:13 -0700 From: Rex Subject: Re: thanks for the warning On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 3:37 AM, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > Rex wrote: > > > >> (nb: don't get pneumonia - just don't) > > > > My mantra since 12/1999. > > Yep. Had it mildly in 2007. Nasty even then. > > Also just lost an in-law family member to it. Went to septic shock, two > weeks in intensive care, was recovering, then had a heart attack due to > oxygen starvation. My sister in law, an ICU doctor, just had the awful > decision of having to turn off the life support of her own mother. > Well, that's my morning started cheerily. Off to work, then! On the flipside, omen-wise, opened the front door to send the kids off to school this morning only to discover that it really was the TIME of the GIANT MOTHS! Well, one giant moth, anyway. Nifty large green grey number with Audrey Hepburn feelers, and turned out to have some crazy pink on his/her lower wings when they fluttered. Have photo, will attempt to identify. - -Rex, in the NEIGHBOURHOOD of SILVER-UH... LAKE-UH! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 10:53:08 -0400 From: lep Subject: Re: Magic Window toy jeanne says: > Hey, I have a weird question - and this seems like a better than average place to ask it. > > Remember the Magic Window from Wham-O? Here's a link to refresh your memory: > http://www.magicwindows.org/ > > Does anyone know what the hell is in that thing? Wham-O used to say "Millions of > Microdium Crystals" but you know what? I think they made that up. wham-o, yay. i thought it was sand and static electricity in there. i was just last night asking my brother-in-law if he ever had a whizzer. xo p.s. to jeanne - apparently you posted this 5 days ago, but i just got it this morning. p.p.s. to jerermy - on jeanne's link, it says that pink one is GLOW IN THE DARK. now i remember why i love the 1970s. well, that and whizzers. - -- "people with opinions just go around bothering one another." -- the buddha ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 10:58:39 -0400 From: Jeremy Osner Subject: Re: Magic Window toy lep says, > i was just last night asking my brother-in-law if he ever had a whizzer. In my family (or portions of it, mainly my uncle who was one of my primary tutors in the art of slang), that was slang for penis. "Take a whiz" == go piss, so by extrapolation. If we do not say all words, however absurd, we will never say the essential words. -- Saramago http://www.readin.com/blog/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 11:40:00 -0400 From: Great Quail Subject: Pretension in rock > And then I go and > listen to something equally pretentious like "Daydream Nation" instead, > because that sounds good to me. I am not sure I would classify "Daydream Nation" as "equally" pretentious as a rock opera. Let me offer a pretentious explanation why. One of the reasons that people criticize rock operas, concept albums, and prog as "pretentious" is because of the genre borrowing that occurs -- or more to the point, the sense of artistic *trespass,* the alteration in standard "form." There is a general, usually unspoken idea that a particular type of art should remain intact -- some would even say "pure." But when you start incorporating elements from another genre, some people feel very uneasy, and accuse the artist of putting on airs, overreaching, being pretentious, and so on. Progressive rock (once also called "art rock!") is often reviled and called pretentious is because of this sense of *trespass*: borrowing tropes from the genres of classical and jazz music. You get the same notion in literature, dance, etc. -- blending genres is always ambitious, and very often leads to charges of pretension. For instance, we have this notion that "opera" is a very specific thing. And it is; and in some ways, it's kind of silly, and everyone knows that, but it has a history and a self-identity, so it is protected in some ways by being a critically "accepted" genre. So when rock musicians, whether Pink Floyd, Pete Townsend, or early Rice & Webber decide to borrow tropes from opera, they open themselves up to criticism from *both* sides of the fence -- rock purists recoil at a perceived adulteration in form (and some may also be expressing deep-seated feelings of prejudice based in genre unfamiliarity or sheer anti-intellectualism); while opera purists bemoan a perceived debasement in form (and some may also be expressing deep-seated feelings of prejudice based in genre unfamiliarity or sheer anti-popularism). Indeed, even in the world of opera, accusations of "pretension" are common regarding stage productions, particularly when the standard tropes of opera are discarded, played upon, or even subverted by avant garde productions. (You want to cast "Tosca" in outer space, add massive video screens, rock songs, and throw in interpretive dance...? You better be *damn* sure of what you are doing...!) Now, I think there's another type of pretension as well, perhaps a "lesser" sin. If borrowing from other tropes sometimes leads to a sin of *form*, extending one's own medium may lead to a sin of *function*. For instance, let's look at Sonic Youth's "Daydream Nation." Sonic Youth extends the limits of their medium without necessarily borrowing from other genres; by indulging in feedback, atonalism, and massive distortion, they are still working well within the parameters of an electric rock group. However, the *function* of the songs is what's changed, and therefore somewhat objectionable to some -- let's face it, the function of a Sonic Youth song is generally not to convey a typical story in a typical rock narrative. However, most songs on "Tommy," "The Wall," or "Jesus Christ Superstar" -- or even most Rush songs -- may differ in form, but still adhere to a typical rock function, which is essentially a narrative one. For whatever reason, sins of form seem critically more objectionable than sins of function; both are often labeled as pretentious, but prog and rock operas are more likely to be mocked and scorned, while Sonic Youth is more likely to get a "not my cup of tea" response. This is probably the reason post-70s King Crimson usually gets a break from the likes of Rolling Stone Magazine -- they remain more closely within the limits of the rock genre, so don't spook the Establishment as much. And of course, some musicians commit both sins -- Yes comes to mind, for instance; so do the operas of Steve Reich and Sir Harrison Birtwistle. Now, having said all that -- Not every artist is actually up to the task of borrowing from other genres or extending the limits of their own. Or at least, they cannot do so effectively, and so make a mash out of it. When Styx attempts something of a rock opera with "Kilroy," the effect is more risible than "Tommy" simply because it is not as good, so the innately "silly" idea of opera is inflated and aggravated past a certain point of tolerance. Now, we may look at "Kilroy" with a certain fondness based in an affection for cheese; but something like "Kilroy" opens itself up to multiple angles of attack -- it is cheesy rock and roll, *and* it is bad opera. Finally, as should be obvious, when an artist trespasses well, when they really score and score big, when words like "genius" are thrown around, then cross-pollination becomes the star of the day. It's always a risk, though; for instance, no one was considered more pretentious than Wagner, who trespassed against form and function; and some *still* find his work unbearable; but few will contest his impact on opera itself, or his right to be called a musical genius. - --Quail PS: These thoughts are meant to be general thoughts, and do not represent a fully-fleshed out thesis. I know that form and function are hard to separate, and there's a lot of interplay between them, and that *subject* is also an important factor as well -- Rush's "The Trees" is pretentious because of its form, as well as its lyrics. Additionally, I know there are exceptions to almost everything I wrote; but it kind of works for me as a general guide. ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V17 #113 ********************************