From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V16 #743 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Thursday, October 9 2008 Volume 16 : Number 743 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Perspex Island, politics, and the wife [Rex ] Re: Master Debaters [2fs ] Re: Another econo-politicalish note [Carrie Galbraith ] RE: Re: A couple of things about Eye ["C. Huff" ] RE: Master Debaters ["Benjamin Lukoff" ] Re: Master Debaters [2fs ] Re: Another econo-politicalish note [Christopher Gross ] Re: Another econo-politicalish note [Christopher Gross ] Lunch? [Steve Schiavo ] Re: Perspex Island, politics, and the wife [Jeff Dwarf ] Re: Queen Elvis [craigie* ] florida does it again [great white shark ] Re: Another econo-politicalish note ["Stewart C. Russell" ] RE: Master Debaters ["edwardofsim@tiscali.co.uk" Subject: Re: Perspex Island, politics, and the wife Lamely quoting myself: I nearly had a "That One - Biden 2008" bumper sticker made for me today... > I was just kidding, but... http://shop.cafepress.com/that-one?cmp=knc--g--us--pol--elect08--a--default_ad_URL&gclid=COjql4j_mJYCFQ89awodqTOS7g ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 20:33:22 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: A couple of things about Eye On 10/8/08, Rex wrote: > > > > On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 4:55 PM, kevin studyvin wrote: > >> >> Then there's Neil Young's attempt at a synth-pop album, Landing On >> Water... > > > Well, although it's obviously from the '80's, and sounds like it, it's > also incredibly fucked up in some other ways, too. And it's got some pretty > good songs on it ("Touch the Night" was probably the first Neil song I ever > knowingly heard, believe it or not). > Yeah, I actually like this one pretty well. I agree with Rex also on the merits of _Life_: they are roughly equivalent to the merits of a sealed Tupperware container full of dogshit, opened up directly beneath the nose on a swelteringly hot day. - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 20:48:32 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: Master Debaters On 10/8/08, Capuchin wrote: > > > The very least we could do for all those folks that have wealth kept from > them by the goverment is maintain, in parallel with the government, a set of > public agencies that provide the bare necessities so that those people will > have the opportunity to make informed, ethical choices rather than > desperately selling themselves for survival. > > [On a side note, I think that the capitalists absolutely should support the > forgiveness of all of this bad debt for the simple and clear reason that > freeing all of these families from this massive debt will give them 1/4-1/2 > of their income back as discretionary funds and improve the real economy by > diverting that money into the consumer economy. But all those capitalist > folks are too hung up on entitlement and brutal Puritan ethics to do > anything but spiral deeper into crises and confusion.] Even within the terms of a capitalist economy, I wonder how much economic jump-start would arise if we simply declared jubilee and forgave all debt, now...and (taking up the first paragraph I quote above) set aside a fund to make sure that anyone utterly impoverished by the disappearance of the repayment of such debts would not starve, be homeless, etc... (This is put forth as a sort of instant thought - I have *not* thought it through, so I'm unlikely to defend it in any depth...) Somehow I'm not expecting that any actual attempts to solve this situation would result in any former bazillionaires hanging out with dirty beards and unkempt clothing offering to squeegee passing motorists' windshields...yet was it their own money they gambled with, and lost? - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 18:49:50 -0700 From: Carrie Galbraith Subject: Re: Another econo-politicalish note On Oct 8, 2008, at 3:19 PM, kevin studyvin wrote: > And speaking of actors in high places who despised regulation and > encouraged recklessness, greed, and irresponsibility...I give you > the former Governor of California who's regarded as semi-divine by > the celebrants of the free-market cult. You know, the one who said: "If it takes a bloodbath, let's get it over with." April 7th, 1970 On his attitude towards student civil rights activists, dissenters, & Vietnam War protesters. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 22:03:23 -0400 From: "Jeremy Osner" Subject: Re: Perspex Island, politics, and the wife On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 9:00 PM, C. Huff wrote: > > I nearly had a "That One - Biden 2008" bumper sticker > made for me today... > http://thatone08.com/ - -- If we do not say all words, however absurd, we will never say the essential words. -- Josi Saramago http://www.readin.com/blog/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 22:25:57 -0400 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: Re: Another econo-politicalish note Christopher Gross wrote: > > --Chris "no relation" the Grosster but clearly the author of Shufflepuck Cafe ... Stewart (who just installed Mini vMac on Catherine's new iMac just so she can play Crystal Quest ...) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 19:36:40 -0700 From: Rex Subject: Re: A couple of things about Eye On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 6:33 PM, 2fs wrote: > > > I agree with Rex also on the merits of _Life_: they are roughly equivalent > to the merits of a sealed Tupperware container full of dogshit, opened up > directly beneath the nose on a swelteringly hot day. Okay, I kinda like the utter weirdness of "Around the World", but that's it. And what is the meaning of Life? Apparently, it is "just let me out of this damn record deal already, Mr. Geffen". - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 19:31:44 -0700 (PDT) From: "C. Huff" Subject: RE: Re: A couple of things about Eye <> Oh, I loves me some synth pop too...1st 2 Howard Jones albums, Devo, most of the 80's hits, New Order, etc...I always felt though that Robyn H's 80sness (there's a made up word for you) was a little bit of a put on...I guess Element of Light would be where I think he influenced the 80s rather than the 80s influencing him...Perspex Island came out in 91 though...though one could theoretically make the argument that the 80s did not end until Nevermind was released.... every generation has its production value my least favorite generational sound is actually 90s - the heeyowge snare drum created by Jeff Lynne that imho stained otherwise tasty recordings by Traveling Wilburys, Tom Petty, and shockingly the Beatles...since when did those guys think "Hm..ELO...that's really where it was at! F--- Abbey Road! Evil Woman is it!!!" Maybe Jeff is a really really nice guy with a lot of herb...lol ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 19:49:04 -0700 From: "Benjamin Lukoff" Subject: RE: Master Debaters > From: "C. Huff" > > I am actually for universal healthcare. It seems to work quite well in > France, > Sweden, Canada, etc....I think it is ridiculous that we, the American > I think the British might disagree with you... > taxpayers, give 700 billion to Wall Street, billions to Iraq, and yet > American > citizens who are sick and disabled, many on a fixed income, have to spend > most > of their income on healthcare related issues. It would be nice if we all I'm with you there. > > person's right to quality healthcare. In the USA, it is also listed that > one > has the right to "the pursuit of happiness". Let's say my pursuit of > happiness is building model airplanes (it's not). Just because somebody > has > to make that model and ship it to a store, because labor is required in the > purchase of the model, you would believe that > the pursuit of happiness is not a fundamental human right? > The pursuit of happiness may or may not be a fundamental right (Jefferson thought so), but one thing it is not is a *legal* right, as it is in the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution. The former has no force of law. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 22:01:14 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: Master Debaters On 10/8/08, Benjamin Lukoff wrote: > > > From: "C. Huff" > > > > > I am actually for universal healthcare. It seems to work quite well in > > France, > > Sweden, Canada, etc....I think it is ridiculous that we, the American > > > > > I think the British might disagree with you... Fortunately, we have plenty of Actual British People(tm) here to weigh in on this... And of course, I would argue that the *best* arguments would come from folks who'd experienced both the British and American systems. People who've experienced only one will, naturally, find things to complain about, no system being perfect...but a valid comparison comes from folks who've lived with both. Somewhere online, and possibly referenced here (although I can't find it), was an article by just such a person, although w/r/t the Canadian system: she concluded that whatever complaints she might have had about the Canadian system prior to her moving to the US, they were dwarfed by the inadequacies of the US system. - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 23:37:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Gross Subject: Re: Another econo-politicalish note Oh, why do I check email before going to bed? On Wed, 8 Oct 2008, FSThomas wrote: >> http://www.slate.com/id/2201641/ >> >> NB: Not written from a socialist perspective. > > Reminds me of this from SNL: http://tinyurl.com/4q3pal Amusing, but of course the *classic* subprime-crisis animation remains this: http://www.slideshare.net/guesta9d12e/subprime-primer-277484/ (Go to full-screen mode to make it legible.) Anyway.... You make some fair points in the rest of your post (snipped for length), but I still don't buy the conclusion that the CRA, Acorn, and poor old Jimmy Carter bear the primary responsibility. They pushed banks to loan to more poor people, but that's just one small part of the current crisis. First off, the fact that the sudden explosion of bad mortgages came a quarter of a century after the CRA first passed should give one pause before blaming it. Secondly, a lot of the recent bad mortgages were made to low-income borrowers, the kind CRA covers, but plenty were also made to "prime" middle-class or even wealthy people who just borrowed too much. Thirdly, I really don't recall the government forcing mortgagers to lend to these people. It looked more like they were crawling over each other to sign up as many new borrowers as possible. And the two FMs were actually late to the bonanza and argued that they had to start writing more subprime loans to compete with the fully-private lenders. And fourthly, it wasn't the government who invented the *types* of loans, like interest-only loans that balloon to crippling levels after a couple of years, that are mostly likely to go bad now. (And doesn't mean old ACORN campaign *against* exactly that kind of loan?) Finally, IMO the really critical factor here was not the risky mortgages themselves but what happened to them after they were signed. Normally a lender can make a risky loan if he wants and accept the consequences. But instead all these subprime and overvalued mortgages were resold, repackaged, sliced and diced so many times that no one had any idea what they were really worth any more. And that was in no way the Community Reinvestment Act or any community organizers -- except perhaps in the sense that Wall Street is a community. Both you and Marc take issue with Gross's example of microcredit to show that loans to the poor aren't inherently risky. I'll agree that that kind of loan isn't the same as a mortgage. (The biggest difference isn't the amount, it's that those microloans are used usually for investment to make a profit, such as starting a business, not for home loans.) But it's not the core of Gross's argument either. It was just one example. And he also mentions a mortgage program for poor people in New York that has had an extremely low rate of foreclosure, so he even has another example supporting the exact same point. On Wed, 8 Oct 2008, Marc Alberts wrote: > Interesting that the article doesn't actually deal with any direct facts > about the housing crisis, but instead argues by innuendo (loaning to Innuendo? Gross states simply and clearly that the CRA didn't require the kind of crazy mortgages that were written, nor did it force financiers to buy up those mortgages, over-leverage themselves, or make the other foolish decisions that got them where they were. > I would recommend as a good counterpoint to > this spin-doctoring http://tinyurl.com/6aaotn (an excellent article by > The Village Voice, so you know it's hardly from the Republican political > machine). Lots of detail there that I hadn't read before. However, I'm not really seeing how this article refutes Gross's. That Cuomo was both foolish and stupid, I'll not argue; nor would I deny that a lot of Democrats have done bad things, or that at least some of the groundwork for the crisis was laid well before Bush took office. I don't think Daniel Gross would have aproblem with any of that either. Your point (which I snipped) that the problem was bad regulation rather than deregultion also makes sense to me. Unlike libertarians, I don't see the total "amount" of government (how do you measure it?) as the issue. Insead, I'm just interested in having the government do certain things -- like smack down corporations and banks if they get out of line -- and not do other things. Alas, *that* seems almost as impossible a dream as the most utopian socialism or anarchism. So I'll settle for an administration that at least doesn't believe that any and all regulation of business is automatically wrong. - --Chris "and maybe legalize pot" the Christer ______________________________________________________________________ Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog. chrisg@gwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 23:38:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Gross Subject: Re: Another econo-politicalish note On Wed, 8 Oct 2008, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > Christopher Gross wrote: >> >> --Chris "no relation" the Grosster > > but clearly the author of Shufflepuck Cafe ... Oh, yes, clearly.... Wait. What? - --Confused Chris ______________________________________________________________________ Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog. chrisg@gwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 22:55:53 -0500 From: Steve Schiavo Subject: Lunch? - - Steve __________ I can't resist an anime that includes a small, cute, violence prone girl with a scythe. - John ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 21:05:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeff Dwarf Subject: Re: Perspex Island, politics, and the wife Rex wrote: > I nearly had a "That One - Biden 2008" bumper > sticker made for me today... My brother-in-law keeps threatening to get a t-shirt made that says "I'm voting for the nigger," since so much of the campaign against him -- from secret muslim to terrorist fist jab to hussein and on -- is just veiled ways calling him that without saying it outright. So far he's kept in mind that not everyone's sense of humor is dry enough to appreciate that joke as much as he does. "I love how (coffee) makes me feel. It's like my heart is trying to hug my brain!" -- Kenneth Parcell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 22:09:56 -0700 From: Rex Subject: Re: Perspex Island, politics, and the wife On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 9:05 PM, Jeff Dwarf wrote: > Rex wrote: > > I nearly had a "That One - Biden 2008" bumper > > sticker made for me today... > > My brother-in-law keeps threatening to get a t-shirt made that says "I'm > voting for the nigger," since so much of the campaign against him -- from > secret muslim to terrorist fist jab to hussein and on -- is just veiled ways > calling him that without saying it outright. So far he's kept in mind that > not everyone's sense of humor is dry enough to appreciate that joke as much > as he does. Half of me thinks that, before it's over, Tina-Fey-as-Palin will go ahead and use the n-word that's hanging just off the edge of the real Palin's lips. Maybe just because my mind boggles at what a weird cultural clusterfuck that would cause. This whole moment in history teeters between exhilarating and terrifying so often that it's sometimes hard not to say... bring it and bring it all, let's just see what happens. As long as it ends well. We're living the dream. Well, not quite the dream, but, if nothing else, the ancient Chinese curse... - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 11:30:34 +0100 (GMT+01:00) From: "edwardofsim@tiscali.co.uk" Subject: Re:The EYE debate grutness@slingshot.co.nz said: >I know I'm sending too many humorous anecdotes to the list at the >moment, Dude, there could never be too many of your anecdotes, humourous or otherwise! peace, Edward See your new look Tiscali Homepage - http://www.tiscali.co.uk ___________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 12:11:21 +0100 From: craigie* Subject: Re: Queen Elvis I saved that list. Somewhere. c* On 09/10/2008, James Dignan wrote: > > Huh -- just went over to Asking Tree and realized that the title track >> does not even appear on the record. >> > > It appeared on a lovely long-deleted list of such albums at Wikipedia, > along with such albums as "The kids are alright", "Born Sandy Devotional", > "Safe as milk", "Recurring dream","World shut your mouth", and "Sheer heart > attack". > > James > -- > James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand > -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.- > =-.-=-.-=-.- You talk to me as if from a distance .-=-.-=-.-=-. > -=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time .-=- > .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= > - -- first things first, but not necessarily in that order... I like my girls to be the same as my records - independent, attractively packaged and in black vinyl (if at all possible)... Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc (the motto of the Addams Family: "We gladly feast on those who would subdue us") ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 12:12:27 +0100 From: craigie* Subject: Re: Queen Elvis Ah, found it.... *Absolutely Free by Frank Zappa. A track with this name appears on Zappa's album We're Only In It For The Money, released directly after Absolutely Free. *Almost Blue by Elvis Costello. Costello had intended his 1981 album to be a collection of somber ballads of all styles, and titled it after a piano ballad he had written. When he decided to make the album a collection of country covers instead, the song was dropped, although the album's title was retained. The song "Almost Blue" would appear on his next album, Imperial Bedroom. *August and Everything After by Counting Crows. The song "August and Everything After" which named and illustrated the cover for the Crows' first CD in 1993 was never officially recorded by the band and was played live for the first time in Dec 12th, 2003. *Black Earth by Arch Enemy (band). A track called Black Earth was recorded for their second album, Stigmata. *Brain Salad Surgery by Emerson, Lake and Palmer. The song "Brain Salad Surgery" appears on Works Volume 2. *Bring It On by Gomez. The song "Bring It On" appears on the follow-up album Liquid Skin *Born Sandy Devotional by The Triffids. The song "Born Sandy Devotional" appears on In The Pines. *The Colour and the Shape by Foo Fighters. The track was later released as a B-side for "Monkey Wrench". *Colour by Numbers by Culture Club. The track was issued as a B-side. *Cucumber Castle by The Bee Gees. The track was released on the album Bee Gees 1st in 1967 (Cucumber Castle was released in 1970). *Dry by P.J. Harvey. The song "Dry" appears the album Rid of Me. *Especially For You by The Smithereens. A song with that title does appear on their next album, Green Thoughts. *Everything Sucks by Reel Big Fish came out on the following album, Turn the Radio Off. *Fleetwood Mac by Fleetwood Mac. The instrumental track "Fleetwood Mac" was recorded in 1967 but did not feature on the band's eponymous debut album the following year. In 1975 the band released another self-titled album, but the track did not appear on that either. It did appear on a compilation The Original Fleetwood Mac in 1971. *Frances the Mute by The Mars Volta. The song was recorded and later released as a B-side of the "Widow" single. *Frank's Wild Years by Tom Waits. The song, which appeared on the 1983 album Swordfishtrombones, germinated into a play produced in 1986. The album was released in 1987. In 1995, artist Jesse Richards released a film with the same title. *Glittering Prize by Simple Minds. Even though the band's greatest hits album was named after the song "Glittering Prize", that song was not included on the album. *Gossip by Paul Kelly. This was on the original vinyl version of this double album, but was initially left off the album when it was released on CD as a single disc. *Houses of the Holy by Led Zeppelin. The song appeared on the double album Physical Graffiti. *If You Want Blood You've Got It by AC/DC. The song "If You Want Blood (You've Got It)" appeared in the next album, Highway to Hell and a different version appeared later on Volts. *Imperial Bedroom by Elvis Costello. The song "Imperial Bedroom" ended up getting dropped from the album's final running order, though it did appear as the B-side of the "Man Out of Time" single. *The Kids Are Alright by The Who. The song of this title did appear in the retrospective documentary movie (of which this album was the soundtrack), but did not appear on the album. *Last of the Ghetto Astronauts by Matthew Good Band. The song appeared on a previously released demo compilation called 15 Hours on a September Thursday. *Let Go by Avril Lavigne. The song "Let Go" was recorded as a demo, but never officially released. Worth noting is that the original title of the album was Anything But Ordinary, but Lavigne reportedly changed it slightly just before releasing it. *The Life Pursuit by Belle & Sebastian. The song of this title is included on the 2006 CD single "The Blues Are Still Blue". *Losing Streak by Less Than Jake, which was later released on B-Side and Vinyl compilation "Goodbye Blue & White". *Midnite Vultures by Beck. This song was released on one of the album's singles, "Nicotine and Gravy". *North by Elvis Costello. Though some import versions of Costello's 2003 album contained the title track, in the US, it was only available as an exclusive internet download. *One Foot in the Grave by Beck. This song appeared on his album Stereopathic Soul Manure. *Out of the Silent Planet by King's X. This song appears on their second album Gretchen Goes to Nebraska. *The Principal of Evil Made Flesh by Cradle of Filth. The track with this title appeared on the album Bitter Suites to Succubi. *Pump Up The Valium by NOFX. This song was originally going to be on the album, but got cut, and ended up on 45 or 46 Songs That Weren't Good Enough to Go on Our Other Records. *Queen Elvis by Robyn Hitchcock. The song was on Hitchcock's album Eye. *Recurring Dream by Crowded House. The song was released as part of the soundtrack of the films Tequila Sunrise as well as Rikky and Pete. *Safe as Milk by Captain Beefheart. The song appeared on the later album Strictly Personal. *Screamadelica by Primal Scream. The song featured instead on the Dixie-Narco EP. *Sheer Heart Attack by Queen. The song was planned for the 1974 album, but was not recorded at the time due to lack of finances. It eventually appeared on the 1977 release, News of the World. *Siamese Dream by Smashing Pumpkins. Released as a B-side of the "Disarm" single. *Swagger by Flogging Molly. Released on their 2002 album Drunken Lullabies. *They Might Be Giants, the self-titled debut album by They Might Be Giants. Their eponymous song appeared on their third album, Flood. *'Til We're Dead by Eskobar. The track appeared in demo form on the album There's Only Now. *True Colours by Split Enz. The song was a B-side, and did not appear on an album until a live version appeared on the 1992 compilation Oddz and Enz. *Turn the Radio Off by Reel Big Fish. This song appeared on their 2005 release, We're Not Happy 'til You're Not Happy. *Waiting for the Sun by the Doors. The album was released in 1968, but the song wouldn't be released until the 1969 album, Morrison Hotel. *World Shut Your Mouth by Julian Cope. The song was on Cope's later album, Saint Julian. On 09/10/2008, James Dignan wrote: > > Huh -- just went over to Asking Tree and realized that the title track >> does not even appear on the record. >> > > It appeared on a lovely long-deleted list of such albums at Wikipedia, > along with such albums as "The kids are alright", "Born Sandy Devotional", > "Safe as milk", "Recurring dream","World shut your mouth", and "Sheer heart > attack". > > James > -- > James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand > -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.- > =-.-=-.-=-.- You talk to me as if from a distance .-=-.-=-.-=-. > -=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time .-=- > .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= > - -- first things first, but not necessarily in that order... I like my girls to be the same as my records - independent, attractively packaged and in black vinyl (if at all possible)... Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc (the motto of the Addams Family: "We gladly feast on those who would subdue us") ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 17:21:34 +1030 From: great white shark Subject: florida does it again America is the weirdest country in the world, face it you guys you can't even run an election properly , no wonder the states is fucked and busy taking us all down with it :-) read this, florida is STILL having problems counting ballots right ..... http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/10/florida-countys.html fancy having machines doing the ballot marking !!!! , whats wrong with just marking the papers by hand like almost everywhere else in the world does,!!!! "ah YES , but using a machine is SO much more EFFICIENT " ( and its so much easier to falsify the count and disenfranchise your opponent and ITS PROBABLY GOING TO HAPPEN AGAIN !!!!!!!!!!! ) we be all doomed, doomed der commander ( busy rolling eyes, ears, nose and throat at the state of the union ) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 07:59:27 -0400 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: Re: Another econo-politicalish note Christopher Gross wrote: > >> but clearly the author of Shufflepuck Cafe ... > > Oh, yes, clearly.... Wait. What? Shufflepuck Cafe: classic 80s Mac game. Author: Christopher Gross. Stewart ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 08:05:03 -0400 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: Re: Master Debaters Benjamin Lukoff wrote: > > I think the British might disagree with you... The NHS isn't great, but you know what, you don't have to worry in the UK that illness will destroy your family's finances. That is not the case in the US. Please don't argue this with me; I've seen it. Stewart ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 13:11:13 +0100 (GMT+01:00) From: "edwardofsim@tiscali.co.uk" Subject: RE: Master Debaters lukoff@gmail.com said: >> From: "C. Huff" >> >> I am actually for universal healthcare. It seems to work quite well in >> France, >> Sweden, Canada, etc....I think it is ridiculous that we, the American >> > >I think the British might disagree with you... Well, as a 43-year-old native-born Californian, now living in North West England for nearly 13 years, I've had a fair amount of experience with both systems. Your comment is easy to understand -- does the British NHS have problems? You bet! And not surprisingly, mostly due to misallocation and mismanagement, as you might expect in any big bureaucracy, government or otherwise. Would most Brits trade this system for the current state of health care in the states? I highly doubt it, based on the very many people I know with whom I've had discussions on the subject. Yes, people here want to see the NHS fixed in a variety of important ways, but no one would want to be in the situation folks are in the states, where maybe they have cover through their employers, maybe they don't, and even with employer-based insurance, they are covering a percentage of the cost themselves. Even with a 20/80 split, which I gather is common these days over there, a semi-serious medical condition can quickly land a family in tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of debt. My eldest daughter has had seriously health problems over the last couple of years, and spent about six months in hospital. If we were in the states, I can't even begin to think about the debt -- we'd probably never dig ourselves out, and even if we moved into my dad's attic. peace, Edward See your new look Tiscali Homepage - http://www.tiscali.co.uk ___________________________________________________ ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V16 #743 ********************************