From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V16 #554 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Wednesday, March 26 2008 Volume 16 : Number 554 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Frank Rich on the forthcoming disaster [Benjamin Lukoff ] Re: Frank Rich on the forthcoming disaster [Michael Sweeney ] [0% RH] Computer annoyance gauge ["Stewart Russell" ] Re: [0% RH] Computer annoyance gauge ["m swedene" ] Re: Frank Rich on the forthcoming disaster [Michael Sweeney ] Re: [0% RH] Computer annoyance gauge [Sebastian Hagedorn ] Re: Frank Rich on the forthcoming disaster [2fs ] Re: [0% RH] Computer annoyance gauge [2fs ] Re: Third party racism [Rex ] Re: [0% RH] Computer annoyance gauge [Rex ] Re: Third party racism [2fs ] Re: Third party racism [Rex ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 22:21:22 -0800 (PST) From: Benjamin Lukoff Subject: Re: Frank Rich on the forthcoming disaster On Tue, 25 Mar 2008, 2fs wrote: > I think the reason third parties - or just partyless individuals - think > they can run for President is part of the fallacious belief that the > President can, all by him/herself, control or influence things far more than > he actually can. It takes a party to run a government...if only because > without a party, the *other* parties will make sure you gain no traction. If somehow a Libertarian, Green, or independent got elected president, would the Democrats and Republicans in Congress *really* be so petty as to block their every move, even if it was demonstrated that the president had the support of the people? Wouldn't that put their own seats in jeopardy next election? Anyway, I'd think that if someone from an actual third *party* got elected president, he'd likely bring a few seats in Congress along with him, no? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 04:07:33 -0400 From: "(0% rh)" Subject: Fwd: NEW on DIME: The Zombies 2008 March 08 Shepherd's Bush Empire London hi fegs, a few folks were recently talking about the zombies and "odessey and oracle", so i thought this might be of interest. i believe our own mike g. attended this show, or one quite like it (i think they played three nights.) as ever, lauren - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: www.dimeadozen.org DIME Date: Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 10:21 PM Subject: NEW on DIME: The Zombies 2008 March 08 Shepherd's Bush Empire London To: "www.dimeadozen.org DIME" A new torrent has been uploaded to DIME. Torrent: 189811 Title: The Zombies 2008 March 08 Shepherd's Bush Empire London Size: 635.65 MB Category: Brit Pop Uploaded by: Bonnieh1048 Info hash: bbc14552ddd857028a0f1e003306d81de61b6571 Description ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Zombies Shepherd's Bush Empire London England March 8, 2008 40th Anniversary Celebration of The Zombies' legendary LP 'Odessey and Oracle' Audience Recording DPA4061 > Edirol R09 > CDWav > FLAC This was a magic night, with the four surviving Zombies performing 'Odessey and Oracle.' It was the first time that they had ever played songs from this LP live. The intro by Al Kooper is a hoot! There was also an opening set by Colin Blunstone and Rod Argent that included some of their music after the breakup of the Zombies. Neil was playing a couple of tube stops to the west on this night, but it was a once-in-a-lifetime occasion for me and I went to see NY the next night anyway. This recording is for my pals the Dutch Masters, who were MAYBE at one of these superb shows. Please enjoy at least half as much as I did! TRACKLIST: DISC 1 sET 1 - Colin Blunstone/Rod Argent Touring Band 01.I Love You 02.Sticks and Stones 03.Can't Nobody Love You 04.What Becomes of the Broken Hearted? 05.Rod and Colin Talk About Colin's First Solo Album 06.Misty Roses# 07.Her Song# 08.Say You Don't Mind# 09.Rod Talks About Argent 10.Keep On Rolling 11.Hold Your Head Up #with string quintet Personnel: Colin Blunstone - Vocals Extraordinaire Rod Argent - Keyboards, Vocals Jim Rodford - Bass, Vocals Steve Rodford - Drums Keith Airey - Guitar, Vocals DISC 2 SET 2 - The Zombies 'Odessey and Oracle' 01.Al Kooper Intro 02.Care of Cell 44 03.A Rose for Emily 04.Maybe After He's Gone 05.Beechwood Park 06.Brief Candles 07.Hung Up on a Dream 08.Changes 09.I Want Her She Wants Me 10.This Will Be Our Year 11.Butcher's Tale (Western Front 1914) 12.Friends of Mine 13.Time of the Season 14.Band Intro 15.Tell Her No 16.She's Not There Personnel: Colin Blunstone - Vocals to Die For Rod Argent - Keyboards, Vocals Chris White - Bass, Vocals Hugh Grundy - Drums Keith Airey- Guitar, Vocals Jim Rodford - Backing Vocals Chris White's Wife? - Backing Vocals Steve Rodford - Percussion The Shotgun Horns ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You can use the URL below to download the torrent (you may have to login). http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=189811&hit=1 Take care! dimeadozen.org - -- "people with opinions just go around bothering one another." -- the buddha ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:11:49 -0400 From: "Bachman, Michael" Subject: RE: Frank Rich on the forthcoming disaster - -----Original Message----- From: owner-fegmaniax@smoe.org [mailto:owner-fegmaniax@smoe.org] On Behalf Of kevin studyvin Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 6:40 PM To: Rex Cc: Benjamin Lukoff; (0% rh); a sweet little cupcake...baked by the devil! Subject: Re: Frank Rich on the forthcoming disaster >> I was thinking last night about how pissed we all need to be at both >> Ralph Nader *and* Ross Perot for rendering the idea of a third party >> even more impossible than it used to be. It was within reach not too >> long ago, and now it's relegated to the status of one or the other flavor of nutjobbery. > >GDA! > >Maybe not so much. If the Democrats manage to blow this one, which is starting to look >distinctly possible, their days could well be over and at that point I'd think all bets would > be off. Doubtful. Even if McCain somehow manages to win he will be powerless, with the Dems most likely picking up 4-6 Senate seats and perhaps 12-18 in the House, which would probably be enough to override any McCain veto. The surge seems to be running out of steam and the news out of Iraq has not been good in March, McCain numbers could easily tumble down. The ads tying him to Bush haven't come out yet either. Michael B. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:16:12 -0500 From: Steve Schiavo Subject: Re: A sweet treat for Rex! On Mar 26, 2008, at 12:16 AM, Jeff Dwarf wrote: > Steve Schiavo wrote: >> On Mar 25, 2008, at 3:54 PM, Rex wrote: >>> Heh. I'd already seen this. Hitch has a much bigger problem >>> with the Good Rev than I do, huh? >> >> Hitch probably has a much bigger problem with *any* Reverend than >> you do. > > Yeah. A minister could say he prefers wine to gin, and Hitchens would > blame it on some religious delusion. Odd that such an alleged atheist > would spend so much time worshipping Bush-Cheney.... > Only when they are killing radical Muslims. I'm sure Hitch is repelled by Bush as a person, and probably doesn't have much use for Cheney. - - Steve _______________ Interconnectedness among living beings can be accounted for by nonlocal quantum entanglement. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 14:49:39 +0000 From: Michael Sweeney Subject: Re: Frank Rich on the forthcoming disaster Benjamin Lukoff wrote: >Is Kucinich going to lose his seat, by the way? What about Ron Paul? No...and probably not... Michael "Paul is still apparently hemp-and-guns-bunker-bound, having not 'officially' withdrawn for Prez..." Sweeney _________________________________________________________________ In a rush? Get real-time answers with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_ realtime_042008 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 10:47:04 -0400 From: The Great Quail Subject: Third party racism > I was thinking last night about how pissed we all need to be at both Ralph > Nader *and* Ross Perot for rendering the idea of a third party even more > impossible than it used to be. I'm sot entirely sure why we should be pissed off at them for that reason...? Ross Perot posed a serious challenge to the two-party system, more so than even Nader. And he was useful because he brought the idea of financial responsibility to the forefront of the election. We are still feeling those effects today -- Perot "mainstreamed" the idea to a certain extent. There's more admiration for Perot than one might expect among liberals, I feel -- at least many of the ones I know. And of course, Nader, as misguided as he was, pointed the way toward a grassroots activism, and shares with Dean some of the credit for the netroots movement, which has been already key in the filling of Hastert's old seat and has been especially kind to Obama. I'd only like to make one more comment from my previous posts to Rex -- Do I have racist friends? Yeah, of course I do. I come from the woods of Pennsylvania -- I never saw an actual black person until college. It is ridiculous to think that no one in my history is racist, and I don't see that as a reason to "disavow" them as friends. I've also had a few "black power friends," and I once married a feminist whose entire family believed that males were a necessary evil. Big deal. In my opinion, if I think I am above these divisive sentiments, my best course of option is to provide an example of a more progressive worldview. Of course, once the white hoods break out, or the pipe-bombs start getting made, that's quite a different story....! - --Quail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 11:07:17 -0400 From: "Stewart Russell" Subject: [0% RH] Computer annoyance gauge How annoyed would you be if your work computer routinely took 80 seconds or more to open your home (or equivalent My Documents) folder? This is basically how long it takes to initiate any file activity on my computer here, and our network guys don't see it as a problem. I do. Stewart - -- http://scruss.com/blog/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 11:15:01 -0400 From: "m swedene" Subject: Re: [0% RH] Computer annoyance gauge back up the files and then take the machine out for coffee. it is not your fault the machine is ill equipped to partake in a hot beverage and may spill it on itself. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 15:13:40 +0000 From: Michael Sweeney Subject: Re: Frank Rich on the forthcoming disaster Rex wrote: >No kidding. I remember when Nader announced... I thought it was a matchmade in heaven, a grass-roots party with some infrastructure adoptinghousehold name as a candidate. Ha ha freakin' ha.< >>Ah, youth.< ...Tell me about it -- as an 18-year-old, I voted for John Anderson for President (which may be, I believe, the closest I've ever come to voting for a Republican...when we had horrid local choices like corrupt Dem Sheriff RIchard Elrod vs. soon-to-be-even-more-corrupt GOP candidate James O'Grady OR idiot, incompetent, unqualified Dem for Country Board Prez Todd Stroger vs. venal, racist GOP challenger Tony Peraica, I just ended up skipping the contests...in those cases, the Dems were so horrible, that I probably would've voted for the Repubs, except they were just different flavors of very bad...) Michael "'Third party?' For too many of the years between 1980 and 2006, I woulda settled for a SECOND party" Sweeney _________________________________________________________________ Test your Star IQ http://club.live.com/red_carpet_reveal.aspx?icid=redcarpet_HMTAGMAR ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 11:16:48 -0400 From: "Bachman, Michael" Subject: RE: Third party racism - -----Original Message----- From: owner-fegmaniax@smoe.org [mailto:owner-fegmaniax@smoe.org] On Behalf Of The Great Quail Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 10:47 AM To: Fegmaniax! Subject: Third party racism >> I was thinking last night about how pissed we all need to be at both >> Ralph Nader *and* Ross Perot for rendering the idea of a third party >> even more impossible than it used to be. >I'm sot entirely sure why we should be pissed off at them for that reason...? Ross Perot posed a serious >challenge to the two-party system, more so than even Nader. And he was useful because he brought the idea of >financial responsibility to the forefront of the election. We are still feeling those effects today -- Perot >"mainstreamed" the idea to a certain extent. There's more admiration for Perot than one might expect among >liberals, I feel -- at least many of the ones I know. Ross Perot had the right stand being anti-NAFTA back in 1992. The "giant sucking sound" of manufacturing jobs that would be lost to Canada and Mexico that he talked about in 1992 came to fruition after it was passed. Subsequent deals with China have further eroded the US manufacturing base and also CAFTA to a lesser extent. Michael B. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 15:20:05 +0000 From: craigie* Subject: Re: [0% RH] Computer annoyance gauge 80 seconds! You must have a Pentium IV! ;-) it can take what seems like days to open file on my work compy... but yeah... I'm pretty annoyed too... c* On 26/03/2008, Stewart Russell wrote: > > How annoyed would you be if your work computer routinely took 80 > seconds or more to open your home (or equivalent My Documents) folder? > This is basically how long it takes to initiate any file activity on > my computer here, and our network guys don't see it as a problem. I > do. > > Stewart > > > -- > http://scruss.com/blog/ > - -- first things first, but not necessarily in that order... I like my girls to be the same as my records - independent, attractively packaged and in black vinyl (if at all possible)... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 16:36:29 +0100 From: Sebastian Hagedorn Subject: Re: [0% RH] Computer annoyance gauge - --On 26. MC$rz 2008 11:07:17 -0400 Stewart Russell wrote: > How annoyed would you be if your work computer routinely took 80 > seconds or more to open your home (or equivalent My Documents) folder? > This is basically how long it takes to initiate any file activity on > my computer here, and our network guys don't see it as a problem. I > do. Give us something to work with! So your home folder is on network storage? What kind of storage? Is other network traffic slow as well? Perhaps a duplex mismatch? Are other people's home folders quicker to load? Or were you just venting? - -- .:.Sebastian Hagedorn - RZKR-R1 (GebC$ude 52), Zimmer 18.:. Zentrum fC Subject: Re: Frank Rich on the forthcoming disaster On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 5:11 AM, Bachman, Michael > > >Maybe not so much. If the Democrats manage to blow this one, which is > starting to look > >distinctly possible, their days could well be over and at that point > I'd think all bets would > > be off. > > Doubtful. Even if McCain somehow manages to win he will be powerless, > with the Dems most likely picking up 4-6 Senate seats and perhaps 12-18 > in the House, which would probably be enough to override any McCain > veto. The surge seems to be running out of steam and the news out of > Iraq has not been good in March, ...and how "good" was it when it was "good"? I agree, I think the war is going to surge back into the toilet... and I also think McCain is going to prove to be a gaffe-machine on the campaign trail. The Dems are trying SO very hard to blow it, but even they may not be able to fail to win this time. - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:44:57 -0700 From: "Stacked Crooked" Subject: No, Really... ...y'all simply *must* download this new devotchka record! must! the new joseph arthur EP has been uploaded to usenet as well. pretty good (quite good, really -- just that i have an inherent bias against EPs). then go ahead and do so if you want to. should take you about five seconds. and that's (in my opinion) the *full extent* of the time and energy one should expend upon the democrats. there're so many more productive ways one could be spending one's time (even granting you are probably composing these lengthy analyses while chained to your desk at work). and again i'll repeat: if everybody who says that they don't want to be dropping bombs on other people would park their cars and throw away the keys, the war would be over in about one week's time. voting for either obama or hillary will *not* achieve this end, no matter how much one might wish it to be so. *non-human* primates. humans had to be dragged kicking and screaming into hierarchy. humans lived in non-hierarchichal tribes for thousands of generations; and have only been "civilised" for ten thousand years or so. so, no, it's not human nature. it's the nature of the *system* (agriculture): in times of want, we're forced to depend upon the dude what's stored up all the grain. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 11:34:34 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: Frank Rich on the forthcoming disaster On 3/26/08, Benjamin Lukoff wrote: > > On Tue, 25 Mar 2008, 2fs wrote: > > > I think the reason third parties - or just partyless individuals - think > > they can run for President is part of the fallacious belief that the > > President can, all by him/herself, control or influence things far more > than > > he actually can. It takes a party to run a government...if only because > > without a party, the *other* parties will make sure you gain no > traction. > > > If somehow a Libertarian, Green, or independent got elected president, > would the Democrats and Republicans in Congress *really* be so petty as to > block their every move, even if it was demonstrated that the president had > the support of the people? I'm sure no party, no matter how partisan, would stall up the entire works of government just to make a point, or try to impeach a president with 60% approval ratings over a cum-stain, or anything like that. Seriously: the Republicans during the Clinton administration were perfectly content to let government shut down completely to make their points. I don't know that they (or the Dems) would be completely obstructive...but I know for sure they would not want such a candidate to gain any traction. Ask yourself this: do the political parties currently allow partisanship to interfere with the good of the nation? The answer to that question is, sadly, obvious. Wouldn't that put their own seats in jeopardy > next election? It could - then again, since we're talking about an independent president w/o a party apparatus, it's not as if his supporters would be aligned to do anything about it. More likely, the situation would be spun against the president...by both parties (from different angles no doubt, but still). And so it would be the independent president who'd be viewed as obstructionist...not the parties. Anyway, I'd think that if someone from an actual third *party* got elected > president, he'd likely bring a few seats in Congress along with him, no? If there were a viable third *party*, yes. And some independents have functioned well enough as high up as Congress, true. My general point, though, is that a new political movement should begin locally, and should establish a party. Not find some charismatic person to run for president, with no party and no local base. - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 11:36:39 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: [0% RH] Computer annoyance gauge On 3/26/08, Stewart Russell wrote: > > How annoyed would you be if your work computer routinely took 80 > seconds or more to open your home (or equivalent My Documents) folder? > This is basically how long it takes to initiate any file activity on > my computer here, and our network guys don't see it as a problem. I > do. Calculate how much time you waste each day waiting for your computer, multiply that by the number of people working there, and run it by the accountants and managers of the company. I suspect IT will then be made to see the light. Unless, of course, your company is crap-managed. - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 09:41:47 -0700 From: Rex Subject: Re: Third party racism On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 7:47 AM, The Great Quail wrote: > > I was thinking last night about how pissed we all need to be at both > Ralph > > Nader *and* Ross Perot for rendering the idea of a third party even more > > impossible than it used to be. > > I'm sot entirely sure why we should be pissed off at them for that > reason...? Ross Perot posed a serious challenge to the two-party system, > more so than even Nader. And he was useful because he brought the idea of > financial responsibility to the forefront of the election. We are still > feeling those effects today -- Perot "mainstreamed" the idea to a certain > extent. There's more admiration for Perot than one might expect among > liberals, I feel -- at least many of the ones I know. I guess I should've said "pissed off about the way the failings of their campaigns madethe idea of a third party even more impossible than it used to be". Both of those campaigns added to political discourse while they were happening, but their failures (in Perot's case, the wrestler-related disintegration of the party he tried to form after the fact) led to the current climate, where only the few, the Tews, the brave will risk voting for anything other than Democrats or Republicans (although McCain may test that if the far right splits with him, which would be, for lack of a better word, hilarious. And awesome). > I'd only like to make one more comment from my previous posts to Rex -- Do > I > have racist friends? Yeah, of course I do. I come from the woods of > Pennsylvania -- I never saw an actual black person until college. Oh my. Well, that's astonishing. I came from the sticks, and I mean the damn *sticks*-- I never saw guacamole or ate Chinese food until college-- and yet I was in school with black kids as early as Kindergarten, so please do forgive me if I'm a little surprised by that. From an even younger age, I was around the black kids on the teams my dad coached (some of whom thought of him as a father figure himself). There was alway racist controversy in my High School over interracial dating, but, as that obviously indicates, there was interracial dating for people to be pissed about, and even that never led to any major confrontations; it was all whispered behind closed doors, and criticized harshly and vocally if spoken publicly. I've been to Pennsylvania plenty of times and it always struck me as substantially less backwards than my own home state. Obviously, things vary from region to region. My impulse is to say "I'm sorry for where you grew up", but that isn't right... something more like "congratulations" is in order. If, for some reason or another, you're curious about the black experience in almost the exact area where I grew up, it's quite possible you've already read about it; Henry Louis Gates Jr.'s book "Colored People" is about Piedmont, WV, and its white neighbor city Keyser, which is my home town. It's dedicated to a professor at the local State School who was a very close family friend of ours and a huge inspiration to Gates, and to me as well. > It is > ridiculous to think that no one in my history is racist, and I don't see > that as a reason to "disavow" them as friends. I've also had a few "black > power friends," and I once married a feminist whose entire family believed > that males were a necessary evil. Big deal. In my opinion, if I think I am > above these divisive sentiments, my best course of option is to provide an > example of a more progressive worldview. I agree with that as the best approach. But I just don't enjoy being around bigoted people. When they start in with the hate talk, you either have to disagree with them (and I don't like conflict at all) or endure it (which always feels like tacit approval to me, and that's even more bothersome). That said, there are folks on my own side of the political spectrum whose own shrillness and dogmatism (usually anti-religious or anti-Christian) is too much for me as well. And, well, here it comes... one of my best friends is pretty damned conservative and churchy, but a greater paragon of tolerance I have never met. Hell, he even puts up with me. - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 09:59:57 -0700 From: Rex Subject: Re: [0% RH] Computer annoyance gauge On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 9:36 AM, 2fs wrote: > > > Unless, of course, your company is crap-managed. As opposed to the other kind of management? - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 13:32:35 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: Third party racism On 3/26/08, Rex wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 7:47 AM, The Great Quail > wrote: > > > > I'd only like to make one more comment from my previous posts to Rex -- > Do > > I > > have racist friends? Yeah, of course I do. I come from the woods of > > Pennsylvania -- I never saw an actual black person until college. > > > > Oh my. Well, that's astonishing. I came from the sticks, and I mean the > damn *sticks*-- I never saw guacamole or ate Chinese food until > college-- and yet I was in school with black kids as early as > Kindergarten, > so please do forgive me if I'm a little surprised by that. From an even > younger age, I was around the black kids on the teams my dad coached (some > of whom thought of him as a father figure himself). There was alway > racist > controversy in my High School over interracial dating, but, as that > obviously indicates, there was interracial dating for people to be pissed > about, and even that never led to any major confrontations; it was all > whispered behind closed doors, and criticized harshly and vocally if > spoken > publicly. I believe we are encountering here, yet again, the classic distinction between northern & southern varieties of racism. The south tends to be more integrated, if only due to sheer numbers, and as a consequence, racism is perhaps more overt...whereas in the north, races tend to segregate, but racism is generally shunned as uncool (not making it less present, of course) and so it emerges in more insidious ways. At least, historically this has been the case. Rex's and Q's examples illustrate this to some degree: it was entirely unsurprising to me to read that Quail grew up never really meeting any black folks, whereas to Rex, from the south, that seemed odd indeed. - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 11:46:05 -0700 From: Rex Subject: Re: Third party racism On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 11:32 AM, 2fs wrote: > I believe we are encountering here, yet again, the classic distinction > between northern & southern varieties of racism. The south tends to be more > integrated, if only due to sheer numbers, and as a consequence, racism is > perhaps more overt...whereas in the north, races tend to segregate, but > racism is generally shunned as uncool (not making it less present, of > course) and so it emerges in more insidious ways. At least, historically > this has been the case. Rex's and Q's examples illustrate this to some > degree: it was entirely unsurprising to me to read that Quail grew up never > really meeting any black folks, whereas to Rex, from the south, that seemed > odd indeed. > I'm not really from the South-- in fact, if Q would be so kind as to provide the name of his hometown, I bet we'd discover a minimal distance of lattitude-- but the broad outlines of what you're getting at here *defiinitely* seem to pertain. I will add that, while I'm not sure about the South or especially the Deep South, in my little oddball Potomac Highland region (which I visit pretty much once or twice a year), racism, and to an even greater extent, homophobia, have been in observable decline throughout my lifetime, especially if you factor in second-hand tales from Grandma's time. Having recently also waded through many hours of unedited tape from that area recorded as far back as 1958 and including lots of conversations and the occasional racist joke or fake Uncle Tom voice characterization... it's changed a lot. There's still redneckery aplenty, but it's way better. - -Rex ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V16 #554 ********************************