From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V16 #511 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Thursday, February 21 2008 Volume 16 : Number 511 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Bronco Billy (zero RH) [Rex ] Re: a sports rant (no RH or Buffy content whatsover, but a little Joss Whedon at the end) [Steve Schiavo ] Spanky Chronicles ["Stacked Crooked" ] Re: a sports rant turned to a Whedon rant, turned to a BSG rant - surprise surprise surprise [2fs ] Re: a sports rant turned to a Whedon rant, turned to a BSG rant - surprise surprise surprise [lep ] Re: a sports rant turned to a Whedon rant, turned to a BSG rant - surprise surprise surprise ["Jason Brown" ] Re: Bronco Billy (zero RH) [Michael Sweeney ] Re: whoops [Michael Sweeney ] new on RH.com [HwyCDRrev@aol.com] Re: Station to Station [craigie* ] Re: unREAP: Nick Drake Lives On [craigie* ] Re: Station to Station [lep ] catching up after three days in the wilds [grutness@slingshot.co.nz] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:16:49 -0800 From: Rex Subject: Re: Bronco Billy (zero RH) On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 5:21 PM, Tom Clark wrote: > On Feb 20, 2008, at 3:25 PM, kevin studyvin wrote: > > > heh heh, I was just listening to Crooked Rain/Crooked Rain: > "Out on tour with the Smashing Pumpkins > Nature kids, they don't have no function > I don't understand what they mean > and i could really give a fuck." And it goes on in that vein... in my unpopular opinion, that's the best Pavement album by a mile. ...but isn't it "I/they don't have no function", with Malkmus throwing a little quick self-deprecation in there? - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 20:32:23 -0600 From: Steve Schiavo Subject: Re: a sports rant (no RH or Buffy content whatsover, but a little Joss Whedon at the end) On Feb 20, 2008, at 1:59 PM, Jill Brand wrote: > And Michael, you'd adore them if they were yours. I would be pleased if the Cowboys won the Super Bowl, but I wouldn't adore them. They're just a bunch of jocks. Maybe a handful of them might be as interesting as the average Feg. But I do hate the Patriots. Because of their stupid logo, which looks like something from a bad giant robot cartoon. On the other hand, their owner seems more human than other rich people. - - Steve _______________ Interaction with cosmic intelligence may be influenced by Penrose noncomputable Platonic wisdom embedded in Planck scale geometry. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:41:55 -0800 From: "vivien lyon" Subject: Re: a sports rant turned to a Whedon rant, turned to a BSG rant - surprise surprise surprise On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 6:14 PM, Rex wrote: > > > That didn't bug me, nor did most of the Firefly slang, but I just have to > say once for the record that I hate hate hate all phony SF swear words > evar. > Frak, smeg, gorram and barrel (and also whatever the hell it was they > said > on Farscape). > Your reasons for disliking the fake swears and slang are totally understandable, and I would be inclined to agree, except... I actually use "frak." I've been a potty-mouth for so long that it's fun to interlard the old lexicon with new expletives. Also, Kara Thrace really sells that word. I've also started to say "spluh", a la Amy on Futurama. I would like to point out that I don't think "gorram" is made up- I think people in England actually say that. Or maybe I'm confusing that with "gerroff." Britons? Chime in. In regards to Inara and the possible sexist overtones of a sex worker character, I suggest that you ("you" here being Jill, I think?) watch the whole series before you make up your mind. I second everything Jeffrey said, and will add that as a female and a feminist, I had only the deepest respect for the treatment of the issue and the character. Although I did find her annoyingly smug. Vivien ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 20:44:23 -0600 From: Steve Schiavo Subject: Re: whoops On Feb 20, 2008, at 11:07 AM, 2fs wrote: > Not to mention, I believe, the source for '90s recording artist MC > 900 Ft. > Jesus... That would be Oral Roberts trying to get his worthless ass out of a crack. - - Steve ___________ Not since the medieval church baptized, as it were, Aristotle as some sort of early  very early  church father has there been an intellectual hijacking as audacious as the attempt to present Americas principal founders as devout Christians. Such an attempt is now in high gear among people who argue that the founders were kindred spirits with todays evangelicals, and that they founded a Christian nation. - George F. Will ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:59:23 -0800 From: "Stacked Crooked" Subject: Spanky Chronicles yeah, i'm hoping the library will purchase this one (they've already got it in non-criterion DVD, so it seems iffy...). i'll go you one better: the first time i saw it was on the big screen, *with michael wolfe*, the day of the brain degeneration revue's stop in portland. already returned it. i *think* it's called *The Replacements: An Oral History*. anyway, it's by jim walsh. just recently finished a coupla lecture series by michael drout -- one a survey of fantasy, the other of sci-fi. grabbed 'em from usenet, they may still be available. highly interesting. the way he tells it, its origins are anything but juvenile. for what it's worth. TOTALLY with you on the made-up swear-words, by the way. mainly just because they sound so fucking lame. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 21:36:39 -0600 From: 2fs Subject: Re: a sports rant turned to a Whedon rant, turned to a BSG rant - surprise surprise surprise On 2/20/08, vivien lyon wrote: > In regards to Inara and the possible sexist overtones of a sex worker > character, I suggest that you ("you" here being Jill, I think?) watch the > whole series before you make up your mind. I second everything Jeffrey > said, > and will add that as a female and a feminist, I had only the deepest > respect > for the treatment of the issue and the character. Although I did find her > annoyingly smug. Which, of course, would be a likely character trait for someone from a highly regarded social class and position to feel - at least initially - cast amongst such riffraff as the crew of _Serenity_. She did mellow a bit. The other thing is, of course, part of the male-fantasy aspect of space hookers (groan) is that, as with yr earthbound variety, if youse gots da cash, youse gots da ass. This is not the case with companions: at some point it's explicitly noted that they have carte blanche to pick & choose clientele. It actually is a bit frakked up (sorry Rex) that people are perfectly comfortable being admired *only* for their mind (which can be developed, but is in its basic potentialities something the individual isn't responsible for) but not *only* for their body (which can be developed, but is in its basic potentialities something the individual isn't responsible for). Of course, the cultural reasons for that are obvious - but one of the whole points of SF is to explore different cultural situations. - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 21:49:49 -0600 From: 2fs Subject: Re: a sports rant turned to a Whedon rant, turned to a BSG rant - surprise surprise surprise On 2/20/08, Rex wrote: > > > That didn't bug me, nor did most of the Firefly slang, but I just have to > say once for the record that I hate hate hate all phony SF swear words evar. > Frak, smeg, gorram and barrel (and also whatever the hell it was they said > on Farscape). And there are two reasons why it bugs. > (1) It's a general SF convention that we shouldn't be able to understand > what the characters are saying because it would really be either an alien > language or a future language that doubtless would have altered in many > ways, and wouldn't sound like good ol' American (or British) English any > more, so one assumes that the bulk of the language is conveniently > "translated" for us. So it sticks out like a sore thumb that *certain* > words-- particularly those that 20th C (approx.) censors find offensive-- > aren't translated. > I assume you have a similar attitude toward movies set in France in which everyone speaks English - but the French characters speak it with a French accent? Or movies set in, say, medieval England, but in which characters speak modern English, except with a few "thou"s thrown in? Because the situations are pretty similar - except that at least with SF, the writers have the excuse that we don't know what the language might develop - whereas with the set-in-foreign-country or historical film, we do know what the language is. We just have a convention of not using it. Anyway: within those confines, it actually makes a lot of sense that your standard vocabulary remain largely unchanged, but that slang and curses become different. That's true nowadays: part of the humor of yr basic online Shakespearean curse generator is the difference in the way people insulted one another. Or consider that, say, 50 years ago, I don't think anyone would comprehend the phrase "that movie sucks." Or (to take a more vogue-ish phrase) that few people would have known the phrase "smells like ass" pre- South Park. So the development of specialized slang and curses makes sense to me, as a more or less realistic sketch of the areas in which language moves quickly vs. slowly. (2) It really points directly to the juvenile origins of the genre... phony > cuss words being there so you can get away with "swearing" in front of mom & > dad and feel kind of smug about it when you're 10. > As someone else said, I don't really think there are "juvenile origins of the genre": certainly, there were early juvenile examples of the genre but - to take one obvious SF antecedent - H.G. Wells isn't particularly juvenile. Anyway: mainstream media, regardless of genre and without regard to audience, censored curses up through at least the first third of the 20c in publishing, through the '60s or so in film, through the late '60s or so in music, and through the early '80s or so in mainstream newspapers (many of which still won't print the "worst" curses outright)...and still persists on network TV and basic cable, for the most part, as well as on radio (again, for the most part). So suppressing curses is hardly an indicator of a "juvenile" market...unless the whole American culture is to be regarded as essentially juvenile (an argument that's pretty viable, actually) - but that probably wasn't what you were getting at. - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 22:10:59 -0800 From: "michael wells" Subject: RE: a sports rant (no RH or Buffy content whatsover, but a little Joss Whedon at the end) > I can guarantee you that I'd hate them (although I'd still think Brady was exquisitely beautiful) if they weren't my team. And Michael, you'd adore them if they were yours. Perhaps, but not likely. Maybe if they went back to the old uniforms. More interesting is a woman that talks football. Jill, marry me! > I am a bit ignorant about David Aardsma. Is he going to be like Eric Gagne was for us last year? Big arm, ERA over 6. Had control problems pitching for a team out of contention. If there's a way to bet on how many walks followed by oppo home runs he gives up in Boston this year, let me know. > I'm perfectly happy to let some other team win the World Series next year; I can't handle the late nights again. Ouch! Michael P.s. Actually, its "go White Sox." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 22:27:21 -0600 From: 2fs Subject: Re: a sports rant (no RH or Buffy content whatsover, but a little Joss Whedon at the end) On 2/21/08, michael wells wrote: > > > > > P.s. Actually, its "go White Sox." Or, as they say in Space Zealand, "Xu the White Sox!" (I think that joke might be a bit gravitationally unstable.) - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 21:39:45 -0800 From: Tom Clark Subject: Re: Bronco Billy (zero RH) On Feb 20, 2008, at 6:16 PM, Rex wrote: > > And it goes on in that vein... in my unpopular opinion, that's the > best > Pavement album by a mile. > I don't think you're alone there, but I'd just put a couple of feet ahead rather than a mile. > ...but isn't it "I/they don't have no function", with Malkmus > throwing a > little quick self-deprecation in there? I always heard it as Malk taking a verbal beat. You're probably right tho. I'm bummed that Kannberg hasn't done any more Preston School of Industry stuff. Those albums are good. - -tc, whose great-uncle was a teenage inmate at Preston in the 30's. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 00:44:04 -0500 From: lep Subject: Re: a sports rant turned to a Whedon rant, turned to a BSG rant - surprise surprise surprise 2fs says: > In that it seems similar to BSG - so far (I've just started S2.5 on DVD) > I've not heard a single character on that show express any question as to > another character's qualifications or ability based on gender, race, etc. - > only on experience, personality, etc. Definitely sort of post-identity > utopian in that regard (which - tying back to the earlier discussion of the > use of "sir" and "men" as all-purpose, gender-neutral terms - is the only > possible scenario under which such terminology *doesn't* merely reproduce > gender inequality under the guise of gender "colorblindness"...) if i weren't an ass, i wouldn't feel compelled to say anything. alas: i told you so. IMO, BSG far surpasses whedon's work on the feminist front. whedon challenges a lot of conventions, but he gives fairly conventional sort of challenge. i think of whedon's work rather in the "look what girls can do" vein. the quickest way i can point to this in his work is that this guy clear gets a charge from seeing a chick with a rocket launcher (not that there's anything wrong that, but taking his portrayal of woman as the work of a true feminist fails when one realizes there's a sort of juvenile male fantasy element there, even if it is probably somewhat in jest, or meant to point out these very sorts of contradiction in certain "modern" portrayals of females. "firefly", IMO, is more developed on this front, but i would say that firefly is still very much a world of boys and girls. BSG doesn't even bother to stop there. in the BSG world, gender is as much of a non-issue as i've seen it portrayed in movies or television. other random thoughts from this thread: the use of slang in "firefly" is one of the few things about the show that really annoys me. it just doesn't ring true. the use of chinese, however, is wonderful. i totally buy that the world becomes such a place that people may randomly use chinese phrases at times. i just don't buy the "ain't" talk. i love the word "frak" in BSG. BSG gets more leeway on this front, and it might be because i think of the BSG as a sort of parallel world that gotten a bit twisted in the translation. like they play pyramid, nothing (e.g. playing cards, books, etc.) is ever exactly square, and they "thank the gods". truthfully, though, i've probably got no reason: i just *really* love it when kara thrace says "frak." as far as the appeal of "firefly": my short answer would be that whedon has a real talent for managing a cast of characters. despite my (kind of) best efforts, i came to fall in love with his characters, on each of firefly, and on buffy and angel shows. i definitely didn't like every character, but whedon has a way of creating a world of character that is rather like working at a place you love: you may not like everyone, but, in a way, you love them anyway. oh, and jeff 2fs: pleeeeeease: you think i would be distracted from my one true fictional-television-character love by mal and his oh-so-obvious trousers? my heart is true; i am a one-delusion woman. xo - -- - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "People with opinions just go around bothering one another." - The Buddha ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 22:08:48 -0800 From: Rex Subject: Re: a sports rant turned to a Whedon rant, turned to a BSG rant - surprise surprise surprise On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 7:49 PM, 2fs wrote: > On 2/20/08, Rex wrote: > > > . > > > > I assume you have a similar attitude toward movies set in France in which > everyone speaks English - but the French characters speak it with a French > accent > Or movies set in, say, medieval England, but in which characters speak > modern English, except with a few "thou"s thrown in? Because the situations > are pretty similar - > Actually, yes, that does bug me a bit. I don't mind it at all in literature, where it reads (literally (literally)) as translation, but in movies, yeah, seeing and hearing allegedly French people in alleged France speaking English with French accents is cognitively dissonant. But really, for the parallel to work, the French people would actually need to pepper their French-accented English with occasional unmotivated *actual* French words, and most of those would be merdes, enfers, and vas-tu faire encules, which would seem even weirder. It'd be like the characters who are supposed to be speaking French occasionally, distractingly drawing attention to the fact that they aren't... if it's being translated out of French (or Caprican or whatever), why do some words make the transition while others don't? except that at least with SF, the writers have the excuse that we don't know > what the language might develop - whereas with the set-in-foreign-country or > historical film, we do know what the language is. > That only applies, SF-wise, to SF set in the future, and even then to the human characters therein, of course. Star Wars-style space fantasy isn't really beholden to linguistic history. (In Star Wars they use regular, mild swear words; in Star Trek the future is so highly evolved that they don't cuss at all.) As someone else said, I don't really think there are "juvenile origins of > the genre": certainly, there were early juvenile examples of the genre but - > to take one obvious SF antecedent - H.G. Wells isn't particularly > juvenile. > "Origins" was the wrong word, but in, let's say, generational memory, it's generally been considered kid's stuff. My dad had Flash Gordon and I had Star Wars. I'm not saying it's accurate, but that's the way it's been viewed for a long time now. > > > Anyway: mainstream media, regardless of genre and without regard to > audience, censored curses up through at least the first third of the 20c in > publishing, through the '60s or so in film, through the late '60s or so in > music, and through the early '80s or so in mainstream newspapers (many of > which still won't print the "worst" curses outright)...and still persists on > network TV and basic cable, for the most part, as well as on radio (again, > for the most part). So suppressing curses is hardly an indicator of a > "juvenile" market... > I didn't say they were being suppressed, though... they're actually being more flagrantly included, but coded, in a catch-phrase kind of way. You bet I said "frak" when I was seven. It carried the vague thrill of something almost forbidden, like toilet humor before it became mandatory in animated features... it's off-limits, and therefore primarily appealing to, the juvenile mindset, I think. I mean, in 1978, BSG was probably the only show on the air where the characters said a word that was clearly meant to be a standin for "fuck", after all. Primarily these things really kind of serve as identifiers to cult members, I guess, like the Vulcan hand salute or what have you. Let's not even talk about "speaking Klingon". - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 22:16:15 -0800 From: Rex Subject: Re: Bronco Billy (zero RH) On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 9:39 PM, Tom Clark wrote: > On Feb 20, 2008, at 6:16 PM, Rex wrote: > > > > And it goes on in that vein... in my unpopular opinion, that's the > > best > > Pavement album by a mile. > > > > I don't think you're alone there, but I'd just put a couple of feet > ahead rather than a mile. That'd be more accurate, I guess. I don't think any of them are particularly bad at all. > > > > ...but isn't it "I/they don't have no function", with Malkmus > > throwing a > > little quick self-deprecation in there? > > I always heard it as Malk taking a verbal beat. You're probably right > tho. I think I saw it written out at some point, or I probably would've thought the same thing. I probably looked it up when I first got teh intarnet, and I was all, let's look up lyrics for shit I've never been able to understand, or something. - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 22:39:53 -0800 From: "Jason Brown" Subject: Re: a sports rant turned to a Whedon rant, turned to a BSG rant - surprise surprise surprise On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 10:08 PM, Rex wrote: > I mean, in 1978, BSG was probably the only show > on the air where the characters said a word that was clearly meant to be a > standin for "fuck", after all. Actually, i think the old BSG used frak to mean shit not fuck. As in "Oh Frack!" > Let's not even talk about "speaking Klingon". Hab SoSlI' Quch! - -- "Never go with a hippie to a second location." - Jack Donaghy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 06:54:32 +0000 From: Michael Sweeney Subject: Re: a sports rant Jill Brand wrote: >I'm perfectly happy to let some other team win the World Series next year; I can't handle the late nights again. Go Cubs!< ...I've "only" suffered 40+ of the hundred-year drought, but, on behalf of my dead, no-championships-in-their-lifetimes father and grandfather, this Cubs fan says, thanks, Jill! And it DOES kinda look like a good year... Michael "Of all the things, after the Sept. collapse they had last year, a Mets fan tried to dis my team's '07 postseason the other day..." Sweeney _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:01:06 +0000 From: Michael Sweeney Subject: Re: Bronco Billy (zero RH) Kevin wrote: >Not that I'm trying to start anything, but we got Siamese Dream going at themoment and I have to admit it's one of my all-time favorites - "Spaceboy" isnothing but gorgeous. It's just too bad Corgan had to start believing hisown press releases...< ...I was always quite enamored of "Adore" myself...told Billy that, too, once at the old Demon Dogs (before they tore that -- AND (apparently) Corgan's talent -- down)... Michael "Give me Bryon's over Demon Dogs everyday" Sweeney _________________________________________________________________ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:16:26 +0000 From: Michael Sweeney Subject: Re: whoops Rex wrote: >Well, hey, as long as we have a terrorist on the list, may I congratulateyou on having already won?< ...Yep, happened when Giuliani had to drop out... Michael "Oh, wait -- I got that a little mixed up...that's when AMERICA won... " Sweeney _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 02:29:36 EST From: HwyCDRrev@aol.com Subject: new on RH.com May Robyn will be playing the England's Wychwood Festival in Cheltenham, most likely on May 30. Line-up to be announced. News for 2008 Robyn is featured on NPR's Best Song in the World Today http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=18939017 **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 08:24:41 +0000 From: craigie* Subject: Re: Station to Station I raise you this: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=4854826592&ShowSims=Y Wasn't the back cover just text? We are talking LP cover, and not Ryko re-issue, of course... damn this feeble memory c* On 20/02/2008, The Great Quail wrote: > > > the picture on Station To Station is a still from Man Who Fell To Earth. > > Sorry, the back cover and inside artwork.... > > Quail > - -- first things first, but not necessarily in that order... I like my girls to be the same as my records - independent, attractively packaged and in black vinyl (if at all possible)... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 08:39:31 +0000 From: craigie* Subject: Re: unREAP: Nick Drake Lives On I love the way his sister became 'an actor'... what's wrong with the word 'actress'? just me, I guess... c* On 20/02/2008, HwyCDRrev@aol.com wrote: > > _http://crawdaddy.wolfgangsvault.com/Article.aspx?id=5564_ > (http://crawdaddy.wolfgangsvault.com/Article.aspx?id=5564) > > > > **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. > ( > http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ > 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) > - -- first things first, but not necessarily in that order... I like my girls to be the same as my records - independent, attractively packaged and in black vinyl (if at all possible)... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 04:51:33 -0500 From: lep Subject: Re: Station to Station The Great Quail says: > > the picture on Station To Station is a still from Man Who Fell To Earth. > > Sorry, the back cover and inside artwork.... eek, this is getting worse - the tree of life is an empty vessel? craigie* says: > I raise you this: > > http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=4854826592&ShowSims=Y > > Wasn't the back cover just text? We are talking LP cover, and not Ryko > re-issue, of course... > > damn this feeble memory this is a fairly accurate description of the original LP packaging (it's extremely accurate for something that's coming from me): the photograph on the front cover was in black in white; the photograph didn't take up the entire cover - it had a white border around it, and had the album name in red block letters, all together LIKETHISTEXTIS. the red was more towards "crimson" than "tomato". the back of the cover was just white with red text with the names of the songs. the liner was white on one side (which, for no good reason, i think of as the "front" of the liner), and the other side was white with more red text - the musician and song credits and such. i wouldn't bother to point these things out, but it seems there are only two in things in this life i remember: that mathematics is true, and the cover of station to station. i get a bit overexcited when one or the other is mentioned. i miss either LPs, being a teenager, or perhaps just having the time to sit on the floor, looking at the cover and liner to an album as it played on turntable an arm's reach away. as ever, lauren - -- - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "People with opinions just go around bothering one another." - The Buddha ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 22:21:31 +1300 From: grutness@slingshot.co.nz Subject: catching up after three days in the wilds >Anyway: I forget which song, but a track on the Doors' second album features >synth, as does "Star Collector" by the Monkees, both earlier than "Space >Oddity." Micky Dolenz was electronics mad and a good friend of Robert Moog. So, for that matter, was Roger McGuinn, which is why early synth sounds were being used by the Byrds from around the time of Notorious Byrd Brothers (anyone who has the remaster/reissues from a handful of years ago will have the godawful "Universal Mind Decoder" as evidence of that) >new american music club: about one minute in to the first song, i give it >at least four thumbs up. we'll see how it plays out... Whenever I hear someone say this I wonder whether they've got four thumbs or maybe borrowed someone else's. "'scuse me - I need to give an album four thumbs up - are you using your thumbs? No? Thanks!" BTW, the trip went well. Hot hot hot... sunburnt arm, too ("driving aerm", which in NZ means right arm. Manapouri was great, as was Wanaka and Arrowtown. I can report that in and around Lake Manapouri the mountains still come out of the sky and stand there. James - -- James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.- =-.-=-.-=-.- You talk to me as if from a distance .-=-.-=-.-=-. -=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time .-=- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V16 #511 ********************************