From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V16 #500 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Wednesday, February 13 2008 Volume 16 : Number 500 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: why do they hate Hillary? [Michael Sweeney ] videogames as art (0% RH) [Marcy Tanter ] RE: Peter Pan Syndrome [was: Re: why do they hate Hillary?] ["Bachman, Mi] 'Spamalot' musical changes Britney lyric [HwyCDRrev@aol.com] Re: why do they hate Hillary? [Rex ] Re: why do they hate Hillary? [Rex ] robyn with nick lowe USA dates (RH.COM) [HwyCDRrev@aol.com] quail [great white shark ] Re: why do they hate Hillary? ["Jason Brown" ] Re: why do they hate Hillary? ["Jason Brown" ] Video games [The Great Quail ] Re: why do they hate Hillary? ["kevin studyvin" ] My name is "Jeb", and up from my ass come a bubblin' crude! ["Stacked Cro] Re: why do they hate Hillary? [Rex ] Re: why do they hate Hillary? [2fs ] Re: why do they hate Hillary? [Rex ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:37:02 +0000 From: Michael Sweeney Subject: Re: why do they hate Hillary? Rex wrote: >I'm told that there's hells of money in porn and scrapbooking, but they remain fairly marginal nonetheless. ...Don't kid yerself -- porn is, to quote Hyman Roth in "Godfather, Part II," "bigger than U.S. Steel..." Fragmented and icky on an individual and/or close-up basis, but...HUGE business that has, over the past 30 years, driven the penetration (no pun...) and uptake of nearly every technological advance in the world (VHS, discs, Internet, downloading vids, etc.)... Here's something on it outselling Hollywood (from the you-wouldn't-expect-THEM-to-say-anything-even-semi-positive-about-porn foxnews.com): "Porn outsells Hollywood Although the vagaries of entertainment accounting have become legendary, it is universally acknowledged that the U.S. adult-film industry, at around $12 billion in annual sales, rentals, and cable charges in 2006, is an even grander and more efficient moneymaking machine than legitimate mainstream American cinema (the latter's annual gross came in at $9 billion for 2006)." Michael "Playboy TV is the best 16 bucks I spend on my cable bill every month (and some months, my GF even agrees)" Sweeney _________________________________________________________________ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 04:44:25 -0800 (PST) From: Marcy Tanter Subject: videogames as art (0% RH) Last fall, my son entered high school and started marching band. I became a full-fledged band mom immediately and have a flock of band geeks who I now love and adore. I've come to know one of them pretty well--he's a graduating senior, very bright, has a great future ahead of him. After a discussion in which I confessed to knowing close to nothing about video games, even though my kids play them, he asked me to at least give them a try and invited me to watch him play a bit. So I said OK, what harm could it do? The upshot is that I am amazed by how video games are so much more than what I assumed they were. Many of them have real stories that unfold as puzzles are solved; many of them have incredible graphics that are extremely artful and beautiful. The most amazing part is the music. I never realized how music is so integral to many games! There's a wonderful web site, ocremix.org, where you can hear remixes of video game music, many of which will captivate you. Literally one week before this semester started, my graduate class was cancelled and I was given a freshman comp class, which I rarely teach. I had to throw it together in just a few days and I decided to use gaming as my theme. It's turning into quite an interesting experience and I am learning so much. Sure, there are lots of games where all the player does is shoot things, but there is a real artfulness to video games that I would never have believed had I not seen it for myself. Marcy - --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:22:07 -0500 From: "Bachman, Michael" Subject: RE: Peter Pan Syndrome [was: Re: why do they hate Hillary?] Jeme wrote: >Let's not fall into the trap the boomers left us (which their terrifically fucked-up parents left for them, naturally). >The present is ours insofar as we make sure there's a future for someone else. Let's not waste the opportunity. Health care should be the number 1 issue that gets solved. After watching Sicko last night, I felt underprivileged being a citizen of the United States regarding how backwards we are health care wise. Unfortunately with so many politicians being in the back pocket of the lobbyists for the medical companies, I wonder if it will ever get done. Michael B. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 10:42:42 EST From: HwyCDRrev@aol.com Subject: 'Spamalot' musical changes Britney lyric 'Spamalot' musical changes Britney lyric _http://www.boston.com/ae/music/articles/2008/02/12/spamalot_musical_changes_b ritney_lyric/_ (http://www.boston.com/ae/music/articles/2008/02/12/spamalot_musical_changes_britney_lyric/) also Clay Aiken is now in the Broadway cast **************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. Go to AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:48:22 -0800 From: Rex Subject: Re: why do they hate Hillary? On Feb 12, 2008 10:00 PM, 2fs wrote: > > > > > Hell, me too. But I was a youthful fan of that crazy rock and roll when > > that was going on. Say, has anyone paid any attention to what records > > get > > those warning labels these days? Like the Thurston Moore solo record, > > which > > no kid would ever want anyway? > > > > If you mean the first one, few adults would want it either. Don't know why > - that one never worked for me. I like his newish one, though. I meant the new one-- which I like, too-- it has a very conspicuous label, all the moreso for how rare they seem these days outside of hip hop records (on which they're so common I take them for granted as part of the art design). Agree about the first TM solo record too, and don't know why, either... that was not my favorite period of SY history... record after record that was absolutely fine, but just didn't get me excited. > > > Anyway: I'm pretty sure warning labels got attached to any record in which > the singer sings "fuck" and a few other words. That's pretty much all it is. > But there are plenty of fuck-laden records that don't get the label. Because, you know, fuck me, baby, I'm a trolleybus, without a warning label on my record. Kristin Hersh tells a very funny story about how she got curious enough about how her records, drugs booze profanity and all, never got labeled, and eventually tracking down somebody at the ratings board to ask why. She was told it was because she "swore with artistic integrity". (In short, I don't think anyone can help you understand censorship... there's nothing logical about it.) > Of course it was teen-magnet stuff... I think that was what was really being said to Hersh: "Look, no kids are going to listen to your record, so we really don't anticipate any complaints". And that's why the label on Moore's 2007 release seems incongruous to me. (I should add that "no kids will ever listen to Thurston Moore or Kristin Hersh or Robyn" is of course a gross generalization... there are always precocious kids who like digging into the obscure past, and there hopefully always will be.) Actually what bugs me is when parents can't accept the idea that the world > can exist and have aspects which aren't for their kiddios (and, of course, > often having an absurdly naive idea of their kids as well...). Yeah, it's mind-boggling. The ratings system being as capricious as it is, there's plenty of stuff deemed okay for kids that isn't, and stuff put off-limits that might really be considered essential viewing/listening/reading, with guidance. Really, all you have to do, and it's fucking easy, is read a review or two about anything you're considering for your kids and stack it up against your personal idea of what's appropriate for them. It's your job, mom and dad. And mine, so I do it. That said, there's definitely material that kids of a certain age really shouldn't be exposed to, because their minds and bodies do develop in a particular way on a particular timetable. Seeing the wrong stuff at the wrong age can be pretty traumatizing. You really have to know your kid as much as you need to know the material. I know, duh. But apparently a lot of people miss the point. - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 09:06:37 -0800 From: Rex Subject: Re: why do they hate Hillary? On Feb 13, 2008 12:37 AM, Michael Sweeney wrote: > Rex wrote: > > >I'm told that there's hells of money in porn and scrapbooking, but they > remain fairly marginal nonetheless. > > > ...Don't kid yerself -- porn is, to quote Hyman Roth in "Godfather, Part > II," > "bigger than U.S. Steel..." Fragmented and icky on an individual and/or > close-up basis, but...HUGE business that has, over the past 30 years, > driven > the penetration (no pun...) and uptake of nearly every technological > advance > in the world (VHS, discs, Internet, downloading vids, etc.)... > I don't doubt it, but for a couple of reasons doesn't have that much cultural... erm... traction, I guess. One is the nature of the business itself... people just aren't going to admit to consuming it. But the other thing is that it's just so very fragmented and divided into specialized niches that I don't think anyone can agree to any great, epochal, or (wait for it) seminal works of porn. That is to say that even if everyone was as open about consuming porn as they were about, say, watching sports, the water-cooler factor still wouldn't work. Fred and Joe Sports Fans can talk about the big game on Monday, or the top Hollywood film release, and be talking about the same thing, but not so much with porn, since Fred was watching all anal all the time and Joe is into watersports... and there are probably a couple million different outlets for each available to them. So Porn as a big monilithic thing is huge, but by its nature it doesn't seem capable of producing any great, major, universally acknowledged significant "works". You can write a lot about porn as a thing, but not to much about (to draw on everyone's favorite Interpol lyric) a porno as it own thing, which is why there's no porn review section in the paper, or any weekly universally accepted top 10 charts for it. Why am I talking about this? - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 12:08:35 EST From: HwyCDRrev@aol.com Subject: robyn with nick lowe USA dates (RH.COM) April Robyn is thrilled to be the special guest of Nick Lowe at these 3 shows 9 The Grand Ballroom New York City 11The El Rey Los Angeles 12The Fillmore San Francisco **************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. Go to AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 22:24:38 +1030 From: great white shark Subject: quail This is purely subjective of course(and I don't contribute much to the conversation so I should not be one to carp about list content the past few months ) , but has anyone noticed how much more interesting the list has become now the Great Quail is back ? . he cometh and he goeth, but he doeth ever seem to return eventually Welcome back herr Quail ...... der deeply lurking commander ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 09:12:53 -0800 From: "Jason Brown" Subject: Re: why do they hate Hillary? On Feb 13, 2008 8:48 AM, Rex wrote: > > Anyway: I'm pretty sure warning labels got attached to any record in which > > the singer sings "fuck" and a few other words. That's pretty much all it is. > > But there are plenty of fuck-laden records that don't get the label. > Because, you know, fuck me, baby, I'm a trolleybus, without a warning label > on my record. It is partly a major label thing. The Moore album was distributed through Universal, while Ole Tarantula ways distributed through indie Red-Eye. - -- "Never go with a hippie to a second location." - Jack Donaghy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 09:18:34 -0800 From: "Jason Brown" Subject: Re: why do they hate Hillary? On Feb 13, 2008 9:06 AM, Rex wrote: > That is to say that even if everyone was as > open about consuming porn as they were about, say, watching sports, the > water-cooler factor still wouldn't work. Fred and Joe Sports Fans can talk > about the big game on Monday, or the top Hollywood film release, and be > talking about the same thing, but not so much with porn, since Fred was > watching all anal all the time and Joe is into watersports... and there are > probably a couple million different outlets for each available to them. You have clearly never worked in an all-male blue collar environment! My brother is a foreman of sorts and poker night with some of his co-workers can lead to quite explicit discussions of porn and porn stars. And my brother says there is even more of that on the job site. - -- "Never go with a hippie to a second location." - Jack Donaghy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:53:59 -0500 From: The Great Quail Subject: Video games Rex, > It's really off my radar. The last time I looked, those games were > self-rated, and I don't think that it's too naive to think that keeps them > pretty safe. That's as far as anyone ever got with movies and music, and I > don't think anyone can make a convincing argument that games are > significantly different. They are different, actually, for two important but related reasons. One, games that play on consoles, such as the Xbox 360, PS3, or Wii, must be certified by the companies that *produce* those consoles. And as it stands, no game that is rated Adults Only (Ao) is allowed to pass certification. Now, granted, that's a decision made by the capitalist entities that manufacture those consoles, but it undeniably limits what we as adult consumers may choose from. Now, why do these companies make such decisions in the first place? Because it's politically necessary to do so. That leads me to: Two, there is a widespread perception in the non-gaming world that games are only for "kids." In truth, many adults play video games, and many recent polls reveal that among males 18-35, many spend more time playing video games than watching television. I am certainly in this category -- aside from rented movies and political shows, I currently watch maybe three hours of TV a week: The Wire, Survivor, and Lost. This translates to a shrinking share of consumers watching network television, which is one of the reasons you don't see video games featured prominently or positively on network TV, and the news. More on that in a bit... And yes, you are right -- video games carry ratings, just like movies. But if you want to make a video game that has too much sex, or the kind of violence that seems perfectly acceptable in films like "Saw," it's judged differently than other forms of entertainment media. And because video games must be played in a piece of hardware, saying "No" to "Ao" is essentially a death sentence. Now, imagine if Sony, Toshiba, Phillips, and other companies unilaterally decided that NC-17 movies would not be allowed to be played on their DVD players? At the same time, holding proprietary rights to the DVD format? Or more to the point, the PS3 is a Blu-Ray player. You think Sony will declare that the PS3 will be programmed *not* to play Blu-Ray movies that feature sex scenes? And yet, they won't certify a video game that has a PG-13 level sex scene. This is because video games are treated differently, by a set of double standards designed not to upset politicians and attract potential wrath. The situation is very analogous to comic books and cartoons, two other media associated with children that can certainly carry mature narratives that appeal to adults. Thankfully, we have grown out of this mind-set, but I remember a lot of controversy in the 80s over comic books, and some good books actually went under. Let me bring up two recent, interesting examples of how video games get demonized unfairly. First.... Mass Effect is a wonderful new science fiction role playing game. Good graphics, great music, a fun-if-somewhat-derivative plot (part "Babylon 5," part new "Battlestar Galactica," part classic SF space opera), and a very advanced and nuanced conversation system. It is rated M for Mature, and has some minor bad language, violence, and adult situations -- most of which focus on racism, politics, and betrayal. Mass Effect also includes brief "sex scenes," which show naked rendered butt and side-boobs: nothing that hasn't been shown on Fox, or for that matter, "The Simpsons" or "Futurama." However, recently Fox News ran a scare-piece that claimed Mass Effect showed scenes of graphic sex, full-frontal nudity, and was marketed to children. Now, *none* of that is true, and EA has really gone to bat over this, demanding (fruitlessly) that Fox News retract these statements. Of course, this is Fox News, and no one expects them to tell the truth. But zillions of people watch it, more that play Mass Effect; and suddenly you have a game designed for adults and teens, with no more "graphic sex" than Buffy or "the Simpsons," suddenly this game is seen as something evil being foisted on your children. Second... In Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, you were originally allowed to have a fairly tame and humorous "sex minigame" with your girlfriend. This was well within the world established by the over-the-top, wickedly satirical universe of GTA. It was certainly nothing we haven't seen in PG-13-rated movies! Well, the company that made the game eventually cut that part out. However, inventive hackers discovered a way to re-connect to those excised parts using the so-called "Hot Coffee" mod. Now, Hot Coffee could be used only by PC owners; if you had the game on PS2 or Xbox, you could not use Hot Coffee. But there was such a furor over it, that the game's publisher eventually lost *millions* of dollars, and had to pull the game from shelves for awhile. Yes -- even the PS2 and Xbox versions. Was there any reasonable discussion about this? No. Did the average person understand that the majority of users couldn't even access the controversial content, and those who had PC had to download a patch and do it deliberately? No. Was there any real awareness that this was already a rated-Mature game? No. Was there any public discussion about how this content was hardly controversial anyway to anyone who'd seen an R-rated movie? No. It was just an hysterical reaction that fueled the belief that video games are bad for our children. It cost the makers of the game millions of dollars, and simply offered up another way to bash a nascent medium of entertainment. (And yes, I know that at first Rockstar initially lied about the nature of the mod, but that's not the point.) > I stand corrected. The argument that money generated = importance or > significance doesn't quite hold with me, either... I'm told that there's > hells of money in porn and scrapbooking, but they remain fairly marginal > nonetheless. A billion dollar industry is always important to many people. Maybe not to you, but it is certainly important to millions of others. And surely you don't think porn is "marginal?" Well, I doubt that I can do much to turn you into a gamer, but I hope that you see that the issue is not as simple as, "Hillary Clinton wants to put a warning sticker on my copy of Grand Theft Auto." - --Quail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 09:44:59 -0800 From: "kevin studyvin" Subject: Re: why do they hate Hillary? Yahh, it was pretty clear to me just how socially useful these labels were going to be when the first one I saw was on Zappa's Jazz From Hell - which was, of course, nothing but instrumental music. Granted there were titles like "G-Spot Tornado," but the music itself was just 40 minutes of Frank's Synclavier noodlings and I can guarantee you, it was no threat to anybody's value system unless they have a problem with weird polyrhythms. On Feb 13, 2008 8:48 AM, Rex wrote: > On Feb 12, 2008 10:00 PM, 2fs wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hell, me too. But I was a youthful fan of that crazy rock and roll > when > > > that was going on. Say, has anyone paid any attention to what records > > > get > > > those warning labels these days? Like the Thurston Moore solo record, > > > which > > > no kid would ever want anyway? > > > > > > > If you mean the first one, few adults would want it either. Don't know > why > > - that one never worked for me. I like his newish one, though. > > > I meant the new one-- which I like, too-- it has a very conspicuous label, > all the moreso for how rare they seem these days outside of hip hop > records > (on which they're so common I take them for granted as part of the art > design). Agree about the first TM solo record too, and don't know why, > either... that was not my favorite period of SY history... record after > record that was absolutely fine, but just didn't get me excited. > > > > > > > Anyway: I'm pretty sure warning labels got attached to any record in > which > > the singer sings "fuck" and a few other words. That's pretty much all it > is. > > > > > But there are plenty of fuck-laden records that don't get the label. > Because, you know, fuck me, baby, I'm a trolleybus, without a warning > label > on my record. > > Kristin Hersh tells a very funny story about how she got curious enough > about how her records, drugs booze profanity and all, never got labeled, > and > eventually tracking down somebody at the ratings board to ask why. She > was > told it was because she "swore with artistic integrity". (In short, I > don't > think anyone can help you understand censorship... there's nothing logical > about it.) > > > > > Of course it was teen-magnet stuff... > > > I think that was what was really being said to Hersh: "Look, no kids are > going to listen to your record, so we really don't anticipate any > complaints". And that's why the label on Moore's 2007 release seems > incongruous to me. (I should add that "no kids will ever listen to > Thurston > Moore or Kristin Hersh or Robyn" is of course a gross generalization... > there are always precocious kids who like digging into the obscure past, > and > there hopefully always will be.) > > > Actually what bugs me is when parents can't accept the idea that the world > > can exist and have aspects which aren't for their kiddios (and, of > course, > > often having an absurdly naive idea of their kids as well...). > > > Yeah, it's mind-boggling. The ratings system being as capricious as it > is, > there's plenty of stuff deemed okay for kids that isn't, and stuff put > off-limits that might really be considered essential > viewing/listening/reading, with guidance. Really, all you have to do, and > it's fucking easy, is read a review or two about anything you're > considering > for your kids and stack it up against your personal idea of what's > appropriate for them. It's your job, mom and dad. And mine, so I do it. > > That said, there's definitely material that kids of a certain age really > shouldn't be exposed to, because their minds and bodies do develop in a > particular way on a particular timetable. Seeing the wrong stuff at the > wrong age can be pretty traumatizing. You really have to know your kid as > much as you need to know the material. > > I know, duh. But apparently a lot of people miss the point. > > -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 09:57:20 -0800 From: "Stacked Crooked" Subject: My name is "Jeb", and up from my ass come a bubblin' crude!