From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V16 #431 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Monday, December 17 2007 Volume 16 : Number 431 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Another "Best of 2007" list [HwyCDRrev@aol.com] FW: How Can They Expect to be Taken Seriously? [Michael Sweeney ] Re: Reap [2fs ] Re: FW: How Can They Expect to be Taken Seriously? [HwyCDRrev@aol.com] robyn @ zep reunion [HwyCDRrev@aol.com] 9:00 PM VH1 Classic: Seven Ages of Rock #1: My Generation -- The Birth of Rock [HwyCDRre] Re: daring to be... ["David Stovall" ] Re: daring to be... [2fs ] Re: FW: How Can They Expect to be Taken Seriously? [Jeff Dwarf ] Re: FW: How Can They Expect to be Taken Seriously? [kevin ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 14:59:53 EST From: HwyCDRrev@aol.com Subject: Re: Another "Best of 2007" list In a message dated 12/16/2007 2:58:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, munki1972@yahoo.com writes: Banned in '08: naming your band after animals in any way. > (Especially wolves.) What if it's in another language? For example, The Seagulls is unacceptable, but in Spanish it would be okay. what about "Robin" Hitchcock ? **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 22:32:40 +0000 From: Michael Sweeney Subject: FW: How Can They Expect to be Taken Seriously? On behalf of Mr. 2fs... Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 14:55:33 -0600From: jeffreyw2fs.j@gmail.comTo: m_l_sweeney@hotmail.comSubject: Re: How Can They Expect to be Taken Seriously?On 12/15/07, Michael Sweeney wrote: One thing that has always gotten me about BOTH Paul W.s (Westerberg andWeller) is that their definitely distinctive voices from their 'Mats/Jam daysseem (to my ears, anyway) all but unrecognizable in much of their solo work. Ciggies/booze? Radically different keys/pitches? Dunno...But, some 30, 40years on you can always tell Zimmy's, Macca's, Neil's, Bowie's, Lou's, Cale's,Declan's Robyn's, voices (etc.)...but the post-punk Pauls? Not so much... With Weller, I think it's that he learned to sing "better" - but I think his voice had more character when it was more gruff and shouty. What's interesting about your list of voices is that almost of them have changed considerably as well. Dylan's certainly: there's his early, rather thin voice, his middle-period classic sound (the usual source of Dylan impersonations), the weird froggy thing he used on _Nashville Skyline_ -era recordings; the voice similar to the classic period he used on the late '70s string of albums; the corroded thing he didn't use too well on a handful of '80s releases; the similar voice that he learned to use effectively, on _Oh Mercy_ and the other Lanois-produced follow-up; and the much lower, gutted voice he's used on the last three (again, very effectively). I cannot imagine him, now, singing something as high-pitched as "Down in the Flood" with his current voice, say (if I'm thinking of the right song...he has a lot of them, I've observed). And of course Bowie took a while to get to the voice that Bowie impersonators use, too: the heavy vibrato, the dramatics. His earlier stuff is much thinner in sound (as if he was doing a Dylan impersonation, in fact), and since he's always approached singing almost as an actor doing characters, the range and shading of voices he uses is pretty broad. McCartney, too, has a collection of voices: there's his sweet ballad voice, his bluesy shouter voice, his sort of bemused pop-singer voice...(one thing I like about _Memory Almost Full_ is that he uses all of those again). Reed's been somewhat more consistent...although there the inconsistency is whether he tries to sing or not. Around _The Blue Mask_ he seemed determined to actually sing for once - didn't do a half-bad job, either. As for Elvis C.: I go back and forth on that one. He's got pretty damned good control, and he's expanded his range considerably over the years...but sometimes he just plain tries too hard. It can be thrilling when he sings those long, high notes at the very peak of his range...but sometimes it's just sort of embarrassing, almost as if he thinks he's on American Idol or something ("that'll show 'em I'm a damned good singer!"). Cale is an interesting choice...since I don't think a lot of people think of his vocals that much. But for me, his is one of my favorite voices - it's got this richness to it that I love, making anything he sings more interesting than some other singer singing it. And very distinctive, too. He's another one with impressive emotional range: his infamous shouts and screams, for example, but also he'll occasionally whisper or just speak. And as I pointed out when _Hobo Sapiens_ came out, at age 60 he suddenly tried on, for nearly the first time as far as I can tell, a falsetto voice. Never saw that one coming! And Robyn? It was some years ago, and I think it was Dennis McGreevey (where are you, Dennis?) who pointed out that Hitchcock, rather like Lennon, has a voice that's very distinct from one register to another. Over the years his voice has deepened - I think when he began he didn't have those very, very low notes available to actually sing (he could sorta mumble them). He can't quite hit the high notes as well, but fortunately he never sang that many of them. And of course there was that weird moment in 2001, 2003 or so, when it sounded as if he'd sanded his voice all to hell, and he was overrelying on this weird breathy thing he would do a lot then (kind of a cross between a breath and a crack - and of course, now I can't think of a specific example... You know what I mean though, right?) Is there a point to this? Uh, not really...I'm wondering if mega-fans of Weller or Westerberg would claim that they hear the same voice throughout, just with variations, or whether they'd concur.Two other interesting cases: David Byrne and Julian Cope. Byrne's another one who I feel was a much more compelling singer when he wasn't as "good" a singer. He trained, I'm guessing, and developed more control and power in his voice...but it lost a lot of character, and frankly there was a sort of annoying "I'm actually singing now!" aspect to it for a while there. The funny thing about Cope is that up through _My Nation Underground_ or so, he sang almost exclusively in his uppermost register...so when I first heard _Skellington_, I was like...my god, what the hell happened to his voice? It seemed to have dropped two octaves - I thought he must have totally burned it out somehow. And maybe he did - but I think it was also a conscious decision to sing a bit more naturally, to go with the lower-fi recording he was doing. In more recent years he's occasionally broken out that higher-pitched, choirboy style he used w/ TTX ("Holy Mother of God" is probably the best example) but only rarely. You know who's got a really freaky voice? Jeremy Enigk, ex- of Sunny Day Real Estate. There's something just unearthly about his upper register that I can't put my finger on - I rather like it, though. Whew. Longer post than I thought it would be...-- ...Jeff NormanThe Architectural Dance Societyhttp://spanghew.blogspot.com _________________________________________________________________ Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_122007 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 23:00:08 +0000 From: Michael Sweeney Subject: RE: How Can They Expect to be Taken Seriously? Jeff wrote: >On 12/15/07, Michael Sweeney wrote: >>One thing that has always gotten me about BOTH Paul W.s (Westerberg andWeller) is that their definitely distinctive voices from their 'Mats/Jam daysseem (to my ears, anyway) all but unrecognizable in much of their solo work. Ciggies/booze? Radically different keys/pitches? Dunno...But, some 30, 40years on you can always tell Zimmy's, Macca's, Neil's, Bowie's, Lou's, Cale's,Declan's Robyn's, voices (etc.)...but the post-punk Pauls? Not so much... << >With Weller, I think it's that he learned to sing "better" - but I think his voice had more character when it was more gruff and shouty. < Agreed, mostly...but I don't think the current ver. is better at all... >What's interesting about your list of voices is that almost of them have changed considerably as well. Dylan's certainly: < Well, sure, there's plenty o' Bob voices to choose from -- but, hitting the core of my point, ya pretty much always know that it IS Bob. Whereas there's recent Weller or Westy that I've heard that I had NO IDEA was them until I was told so (and I know nearly every track, every phrase, every breath of both of their heydays...) >McCartney, too, has a collection of voices: there's his sweet ballad voice, his bluesy shouter voice, his sort of bemused pop-singer voice...(one thing I like about _Memory Almost Full_ is that he uses all of those again). < Right, they're in his repertoire, part of his palette...but (with perhaps the exceptions of the pre-"Run Devil Run" records I bailed on (and therefore don't know at all)) he doesn't change entire tones or use one to the exclusion of all others for a certain record or a period... >Reed's been somewhat more consistent...although there the inconsistency is whether he tries to sing or not. Around _The Blue Mask_ he seemed determined to actually sing for once - didn't do a half-bad job, either.< The singing was back on "Ecstasy," too (and sounding pretty damned good, IMH (and unexpected at this late stage of the game) O)...but even when he's just narrating, you won't mistake it for anyone else or wonder who it is at all... >Cale is an interesting choice...since I don't think a lot of people think of his vocals that much. But for me, his is one of my favorite voices < ...And I forgot 2 more of my all-time faves that still sound the same to me after (respectively) 40+ and nearly 30 years: Pete Townshend and Chrissie Hynde... Anyway -- I still want to say it's cigs, but, heaven knows, in his 17 active yrs, Lennon smoked like a chimney and still sounded the same at the end (on the other hand, Weller's nearly 50, Westerberg'll be 48 on New Year's Eve (so, a good 8-10 yrs older than JL ever got), and they also both played live more (more shouting, ambient smoke, etc.))...so -- who the hell knows...? Michael "On the other hand, I just remembered Joni Mitchell, whose once-reed-like-voice now seems deeper than Cale's or Cohen's -- and that one is DEFINITELY from cigarettes..." Sweeney _________________________________________________________________ Get the power of Windows + Web with the new Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_powerofwindows_122007 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 23:03:39 +0000 From: Michael Sweeney Subject: RE: How Can They Expect to be Taken Seriously? Rex hath wroth:> On 12/15/07, Michael Sweeney wrote:> >> > Rex wrote:> >> >> > >Many people wish to like solo Westerberg, but few actually can. I'm> > no sure why, exacty, but Miles summed it up pretty well... somewhere> > in the archive... search "Miles/Westerberg/indictment" and it oughtta> > show up.<> >> >> > One thing that has always gotten me about BOTH Paul W.s (Westerberg and> > Weller) is that their definitely distinctive voices from their 'Mats/Jam> > days seem (to my ears, anyway) all but unrecognizable in much of their solo> > work. Ciggies/booze? Radically different keys/pitches? Dunno...But, some> > 30, 40 years on you can always tell Zimmy's, Macca's, Neil's, Bowie's,> > Lou's, Cale's, Declan's Robyn's, voices (etc.)...but the post-punk Pauls?> > Not so much...> > Weller, yes; Westerberg I can usually peg, still, although it is bit> different and I don't hear much of his solo material.> > Now the difference between Box Tops Alex Chilton and Big Star Alex> Chilton, that's a tough one. ...Yeah, that one might be a complete case of alien-abduction-and-replacement... Michael "'Replacement'? Ah, almost full-circle closure..." Sweeney _________________________________________________________________ Get the power of Windows + Web with the new Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_powerofwindows_122007 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 11:12:59 +1300 From: grutness@slingshot.co.nz Subject: Re: fegmaniax-digest V16 #430 >2fs wrote: > > Banned in '08: naming your band after animals in any way. > > (Especially wolves.) > >What if it's in another language? Hm... that would be... Los Lobos? I feel it's probably been done... James - -- James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.- =-.-=-.-=-.- You talk to me as if from a distance .-=-.-=-.-=-. -=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time .-=- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 15:54:40 -0800 From: Rex Subject: Re: FW: How Can They Expect to be Taken Seriously? On 12/16/07, Michael Sweeney wrote: > On behalf of Mr. 2fs... > > > And as I > pointed out when _Hobo Sapiens_ came out, at age 60 he suddenly tried on, for > nearly the first time as far as I can tell, a falsetto voice. Never saw that > one coming! "Black Acetate", surely, on "Outta the Bag". And he did that one in a lower register when it was playes live. But it was very interesting. Hate to just pull that out of a post with so many interesting observations, but... I'm tired. - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 20:13:33 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Dwarf Subject: Reap Dan Fogelburp, inspiration of Lola Granola's scandanous tattoo http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/12/16/entertainment/e160944S30.DTL&tsp=1 "I'm not tempted to write a song about George W. Bush. I couldn't figure out what sort of song I would write. That's the problem: I don't want to satirize George Bush and his puppeteers, I want to vaporize them." -- Tom Lehrer "The eyes are the groin of the head." -- Dwight Schrute . ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 22:24:24 -0600 From: 2fs Subject: Re: Reap On 12/16/07, Jeff Dwarf wrote: > > Dan Fogelburp, inspiration of Lola Granola's scandanous tattoo > > > http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/12/16/entertainment/e160944S30.DTL&tsp=1= Is it utterly callous of me to observe that the most painful and tragic aspect of his death, for me, is that it means the utterly barftastic "Same Old Lang Syne" song will probably get even more seasonal airplay? - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 02:22:14 EST From: HwyCDRrev@aol.com Subject: Re: FW: How Can They Expect to be Taken Seriously? In a message dated 12/16/2007 5:43:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, m_l_sweeney@hotmail.com writes: . As for Elvis C.: I go back and forth on that one. He's got pretty damned good control, and he's expanded his range considerably over the years...but sometimes he just plain tries too hard. It can be thrilling when he sings those long, high notes at the very peak of his range...but sometimes it's just sort of embarrassing, almost as if he thinks he's on American Idol or something ("that'll show 'em I'm a damned good singer!") i believe he actually took proper singing lessons and he - of course- has more than dabbled in classical music and what about neil young ? still sounds pretty good i've seen Dylan 66 times - yet i'm always shocked by how coarse his voice is when he starts to sing his 1st song . . . . every single time . . . just shocked! and i've got dozens of live recordings i'm never prepared - it's like Tom Waits through a megaphone ! and the R+RHOF doesn't expect to be taken seriously they expect to turn a profit . . . Jann Wenner won't let the Monkees in -because they used session musicians (among other reasons) - yet the Beach Boys sailed right in - and the BBs did the same thing - outside writers , outside musicians . . **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 02:34:04 EST From: HwyCDRrev@aol.com Subject: robyn @ zep reunion just listened to Robyn BBC 12/7 interview says he was planning on attending LZ reunion (with his pal/neighbor/collaborator John Paul Jones) who woulda thunk that all those years ago ! **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 02:49:56 EST From: HwyCDRrev@aol.com Subject: 9:00 PM VH1 Classic: Seven Ages of Rock #1: My Generation -- The Birth of Rock 9:00 PM VH1 Classic: Seven Ages of Rock #1: My Generation -- The Birth of Rock almost forgot **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:34:51 -0500 From: "David Stovall" Subject: Re: daring to be... From: lep >and back to off-topic... > >that reminds of a logician joke i know. actually, it's the only >logician joke i know: > >so a family is sitting down to dinner, and the logician father says to >his son: "if you don't eat your vegetables, i'm sending you to bed >without dessert." so the son ate his vegetables, and the father sent >him to bed without dessert. > >(that's the end of the joke, you can start laughing now.) Which reminds me of my favorite empiricist joke. An empiricist and his friend are riding a train through the country. The first looks out at a field full of sheep and notes aloud, "hm, those sheep haven't been shorn yet." To which the empricist replies, "At least not on this side." d9 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 09:44:21 -0600 From: 2fs Subject: Re: daring to be... On 12/17/07, David Stovall wrote: > > > > Which reminds me of my favorite empiricist joke. An empiricist and > his friend are riding a train through the country. The first looks > out at a field full of sheep and notes aloud, "hm, those sheep haven't > been shorn yet." To which the empricist replies, "At least not on this > side." I think he shouldn't be so quick to assume they're sheep - and not, say, a couple guys in a sheep costume. - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com - ---------------- Now playing: Morning Recordings - Sugar Waltz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 08:10:57 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Dwarf Subject: Re: FW: How Can They Expect to be Taken Seriously? HwyCDRrev@aol.com wrote: > and the R+RHOF doesn't expect to be taken seriously Since it seems to be greeted as a somewhat more serious subject line than I expected, I guess I should mention that I was just ripping off the title of a Pet Shop Boys song that, at one point, derides the Rock'n'Roll Hall of Fame; of course, Jann and his way too-worshipful-of-their-youth-and-no-one-else's friends do expect to be taken seriously.... "I'm not tempted to write a song about George W. Bush. I couldn't figure out what sort of song I would write. That's the problem: I don't want to satirize George Bush and his puppeteers, I want to vaporize them." -- Tom Lehrer "The eyes are the groin of the head." -- Dwight Schrute . ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 09:31:26 -0800 (GMT-08:00) From: kevin Subject: Re: daring to be... >Which reminds me of my favorite empiricist joke. An empiricist and >his friend are riding a train through the country. The first looks >out at a field full of sheep and notes aloud, "hm, those sheep haven't >been shorn yet." To which the empricist replies, "At least not on this >side." I always get lectured about being cynical when I make observations like that. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 09:30:25 -0800 (GMT-08:00) From: kevin Subject: Re: FW: How Can They Expect to be Taken Seriously? >of course, Jann and his way>too-worshipful-of-their-youth-and-no-one-else's friends do expect to>be taken seriously.... The mention of Wenner always reminds me of Bruno Kirby's blustering imposture in the not-so-great flick Where the Buffalo Roam and Bill Murray-as-HST's impeccably dismissive "You move like a cat, Marty." It was a crappy movie but it did skewer Wenner nicely. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 12:35:52 -0800 (PST) From: Benjamin Lukoff Subject: Re: daring to be... On Mon, 17 Dec 2007, David Stovall wrote: > From: lep > >and back to off-topic... > > > >that reminds of a logician joke i know. actually, it's the only > >logician joke i know: > > > >so a family is sitting down to dinner, and the logician father says to > >his son: "if you don't eat your vegetables, i'm sending you to bed > >without dessert." so the son ate his vegetables, and the father sent > >him to bed without dessert. > > > >(that's the end of the joke, you can start laughing now.) > > Which reminds me of my favorite empiricist joke. An empiricist and > his friend are riding a train through the country. The first looks > out at a field full of sheep and notes aloud, "hm, those sheep haven't > been shorn yet." To which the empricist replies, "At least not on this > side." Reminds me of the Fair Witnesses in "Stranger in a Strange Land" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stranger_in_a_Strange_Land#Fair_Witness) -- Jubal called out, "That new house on the far hilltop - can you see what color they've painted it?" Anne looked in the direction in which Jubal was pointing and answered, "It's white on this side." She did not inquire why Jubal had asked not make any comment. Jubal went on to Jill in normal tones. "You see? Anne is so thoroughly indoctrinated that it doesn't even occur to her to infer that the other side is probably white too. All the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't force her to commit herself as to the far side . . . unless she herself went around to the other side and looked - and even then she wouldn't assume that it stayed whatever color it might be after she left . . . because they might repaint it as soon as she turned her back." ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V16 #431 ********************************