From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V16 #374 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Monday, October 22 2007 Volume 16 : Number 374 Today's Subjects: ----------------- the Shins and Tom lehrer [Jill Brand ] Re: the Shins and Tom lehrer [2fs ] RIP - Paul Raven ["m swedene" ] Re: RIP - Paul Raven [2fs ] Re: the Shins and Tom lehrer [Jill Brand ] NEW on DIME: Robyn Hitchcock and the Egyptians - Trocadero - Philadelphia Pa USA Feb 2 1992 [gaseou] Re: the Shins and Tom lehrer [lep ] Re: the Shins and Tom lehrer [Rex ] Re: the Shins and Tom lehrer [lep ] Re: the Shins and Tom lehrer [2fs ] Re: the Shins and Tom lehrer [lep ] Re: the Shins and Tom lehrer [2fs ] Re: the Shins and Tom lehrer [lep ] Re: the Shins and Tom lehrer [2fs ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 11:35:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Jill Brand Subject: the Shins and Tom lehrer The Shins' "Wincing the Night Away" was released on January 23, 2007, but it was leaked way before that. That was the same day that of Montreal's "Hissing Fauna: Are You the Destroyer?" was released, but I didn't find that out until many months after. I love them both. As for Tom Lehrer, I'm glad to know that he is still kicking around. As I just discovered in Wikipedia, he is almost 80 years old. My parents bought "That Was the Year That Was" when it came out in 1965, and we wore the grooves out of it (even though I didn't understand about 70% of its content, it was one of my favorite records). We bought the CD 6 or 7 years ago, and it had the same effect on my kids. Two years ago, my son, Curt, was a junior in high school and he was taking BC Calculus with about 10 other math glorks. His teacher, who is well into her 70s, is a Harvard graduate, and she is always given this class to teach; she says it's what keeps her going. Anyway, one day, she came in with a stack of papers, which she named her "Harvard Math Revue". No, my spelling isn't wrong. Tom Lehrer, along with fellow Harvard students (both undergraduate and graduate) apparently put on something like The Math Follies every year, and these were sheets and sheets of songs (run off on an old mimeo machine) which Tom Lehrer helped to write. My son's class got to learn one or two a week. For his final exam, Curt and three friends wrote and performed their own songs (I can't remember the titles but they were funny) for the class. It will be a shame when Eleanor Palais finally retires. I've really got to get some school work done if I am going to watch both the Pats and the Red Sox today. Jill ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 15:36:52 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: the Shins and Tom lehrer On 10/21/07, Jill Brand wrote: > > > I've really got to get some school work done if I am going to watch both > the Pats and the Red Sox today. You know, given that the area's baseball team is called the Red Sox, I think the football team should be referred to as (the way I misread it) the Pants, rather than the Pats - since both "Patriots" and "Pats" are gawdawful names for sports teams. The Pats? Lord but does that inspire fear and awe - either I think of "Patsy," or a light tap on the buttocks, or possibly something unpleasant one might step into in a pasture. As for "Patriots": yes I understand why the team was called that...but nowadays, you get the impression that the team will be waving a flag with one hand and tapping your phone with the other. - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 16:43:53 -0400 From: "m swedene" Subject: RIP - Paul Raven http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=83199 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 16:10:57 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: RIP - Paul Raven C'mon - you at least could've said "nevermore." On 10/21/07, m swedene wrote: > > > http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=83199 > - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 17:43:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Jill Brand Subject: Re: the Shins and Tom lehrer On Sun, 21 Oct 2007, 2fs wrote: > > As for "Patriots": yes I understand why the team was called that...but > nowadays, you get the impression that the team will be waving a flag with > one hand and tapping your phone with the other. > Yes, and this is a big problem for me. It was not lost on all us liberal pansy Bostonians that the first time the Patriots won the Super Bowl was after the 2001 season. The NFL milked this for all it was worth. I buy all kinds of Red Sox junk (t-shirts and baby clothes and stuff) for the under fifteen set in Germany (my husband's side of the family), but I would NEVER consider buying any Pats stuff for them because of the flag-waving, God- bless-America vibe of the name and the colors. I rather like dolphins, and orange and turquoise are very vibrant, but I wouldn't be caught dead buying or wearing Miami merchandise. Jill ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 19:50:22 -0400 From: gaseous clay Subject: NEW on DIME: Robyn Hitchcock and the Egyptians - Trocadero - Philadelphia Pa USA Feb 2 1992 http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=166895&hit=1 - -------- Original Message -------- A new torrent has been uploaded to DIME. Torrent: 166895 Title: Robyn Hitchcock and the Egyptians - Trocadero - Philadelphia Pa USA Feb 2 1992 Size: 514.65 MB Category: Alternate Uploaded by: zombiwoof Info hash: ae5c927e7c053ae6d81edd442fdff9403369a7ef Description - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robyn Hitchcock and the Egyptians - Trocadero - Philadelphia Pa USA Feb 2 1992 RH-l.guitar/piano/vox Richard Lloyd-r.guitar Andy Metcalf-bass Chris Collier-keyboards Morris Windsor-drums 71:36 01. birds in perspex 02. chinese bones 03. 5:03 04. dark green energy 05. child of the universe 06. vegetation and dimes 07. so you think you're in love 08. oceanside 09. a globe of frogs 10. ultra unbelievable love 11. when i was dead 12. clean steve 13. heaven 14. madonna of the wasps 15. my wife and my dead wife 16. balloon man 17. i'm only you AUDIENCE MASTER. Lineage: sony d6c/909 mic>maxell xl2s>sony hx pro/audio source eq one>philips cdr 775>maxell cdr pro>eac>flac8>Dime Quality: We had seats five rows back to the right , near the stack. No crowd chatter , clean separation of instruments and surprisingly clear vocals make this a VERY pleasurable listen. This is another one i've been sitting on for too much time. After exhaustive research on setlist/personnel , I came up with nothing , so i'm guessing there is no record of it. Matthew Sweet opened the night on his first ever tour , and Richard Lloyd played with him. I am damn sure he also came out for Robyn's set , playing on the side. You can hear him quite plainly , albeit occasionally. If there is demand I might consider putting up the Matthew Sweet set as well. show number fortyfive from the zombicrypt.selah! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 19:53:51 -0400 From: lep Subject: Re: the Shins and Tom lehrer Jill says: > On Sun, 21 Oct 2007, 2fs wrote: > > > > > As for "Patriots": yes I understand why the team was called that...but > > nowadays, you get the impression that the team will be waving a flag with > > one hand and tapping your phone with the other. > > > > Yes, and this is a big problem for me. It was not lost on all us liberal > pansy Bostonians that the first time the Patriots won the Super Bowl was > after the 2001 season. The NFL milked this for all it was worth. I buy > all kinds of Red Sox junk (t-shirts and baby clothes and stuff) for the > under fifteen set in Germany (my husband's side of the family), but I > would NEVER consider buying any Pats stuff for them because of the > flag-waving, God- bless-America vibe of the name and the colors. i hate it when stupid people ruin perfectly good words (or countries for that matter.) i guess it's one of those lowest-common denominator things. (and i suppose that the word will not be reclaimed at least as long as stupidity is fashionable in the united states.) > I rather > like dolphins, and orange and turquoise are very vibrant, but I wouldn't > be caught dead buying or wearing Miami merchandise. once upon a time, i was a *huge* dolphins fan. it was intense and short-lived, but lasted long enough to overlap with my family's move to a new neighborhood. i was able to somehow convince my parents into an aqua-painted room with accompanying very** orange shades. some moving/school-transfer guilt must have played a part in that personal "victory". as ever, lauren ** "very" is kind of redundant when it comes to orange. the list activity is kind of slow, so i'll take this opportunity to randomly confess that my least-favourite colours are orange (yuck) and yellow (yuck). my favourite colour is, of course, green. another random confession: i couldn't think of any bad movies that i love to watch (that i hadn't already confessed due to lack of pride) (in response to james' thread awhile back), but here's one: i like liz phair's 4th album (i can never remember whether it's "pfair" or "phair" and in looking it up - hey, a 5th album. i imagine it got panned, or maybe just ignored?) also, i'm thinking of a number between 1 and 100. - -- - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "People with opinions just go around bothering one another." - The Buddha ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 19:43:17 -0700 From: Rex Subject: Re: the Shins and Tom lehrer On 10/21/07, lep wrote: > another random confession: i couldn't think of any bad movies that i > love to watch (that i hadn't already confessed due to lack of pride) > (in response to james' thread awhile back), but here's one: i like liz > phair's 4th album (i can never remember whether it's "pfair" or > "phair" and in looking it up - hey, a 5th album. i imagine it got > panned, or maybe just ignored?) I had that same suprise revelation a year or so ago. It was followed by the discovery that the 4th one (which I don't like myself, as don't most of her earlier fans) actually spawned a "hit" or two and succeeded in bringing her a wider audience, but only after I'd moved on from the disappointment, so I suppose Ms. Phair fas two completely separate groups of admirers. I do like "Whitechocolatespaceegg", though, and I try not to let the later developments taint my enjoyment of those earlier records. > also, i'm thinking of a number between 1 and 100. You're just saying that. - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 23:02:33 -0400 From: lep Subject: Re: the Shins and Tom lehrer Rex says: > I had that same suprise revelation a year or so ago. It was followed > by the discovery that the 4th one (which I don't like myself, as don't > most of her earlier fans) actually spawned a "hit" or two and > succeeded in bringing her a wider audience, but only after I'd moved > on from the disappointment, so I suppose Ms. Phair fas two completely > separate groups of admirers. i'm just one person, but there is an intersection in the two groups. just for credibility, and just so you'll know i'm not above trying to prove that i'm cool, i'll mention that back in the day, my boyfriend-at-the-time and i got into the habit of calling my car radio WLIZ from the constant rotation of "Exile in Guyville." > I do like "Whitechocolatespaceegg", though, and I try not to let the > later developments taint my enjoyment of those earlier records. i actually like "whitechocolatespaceegg" way less than the 4th album, mostly because it seemed forced and so some form of disingenuous. but there're definitely a few songs on it i like. i guess the 4th album seemed more honest, even if it's kind of dumb. it's a nice-to-listen-to pop album. if i compare anything of hers to "exile in guyville", it's going to come up close to zero. anyway, when i want to hear the next "exile in guyville", i just play the first one. i liked "whip-smart" very much, as well. not as much as the first one, and way more than the 4th or 3rd. it has gotten its share of play on WLIZ. btw, her songs sometimes seem to have a very strange structure. they're kind of meandering? maybe. i'm thinking of something like the one about "johnny, my love, get out of the business - " ("dance of the seven veils"???) this is a just a vibe - perhaps the music geek sublist can articulate this (or wonder aloud what the hell i'm talking about.) i've been listening to EiG and am probably going to go on a bit of a jag, so i'll try to pull up some more song titles. > > also, i'm thinking of a number between 1 and 100. > You're just saying that. no lie. and it's not even anything weird like a transcendental or rational-with-demominator-greater-than-1 number. just a plain old integer. xo lauren - -- - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "People with opinions just go around bothering one another." - The Buddha ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 22:04:37 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: the Shins and Tom lehrer On 10/21/07, lep wrote: > > Jill says: > > Yes, and this is a big problem for me. It was not lost on all us > liberal > > pansy Bostonians that the first time the Patriots won the Super Bowl was > > after the 2001 season. The NFL milked this for all it was worth. I buy > > all kinds of Red Sox junk (t-shirts and baby clothes and stuff) for the > > under fifteen set in Germany (my husband's side of the family), but I > > would NEVER consider buying any Pats stuff for them because of the > > flag-waving, God- bless-America vibe of the name and the colors. > > i hate it when stupid people ruin perfectly good words (or countries > for that matter.) I don't think "patriot" was ever a "perfectly good word." If it means anything, it means putting your own country ahead of every other value. If you're putting your country first because, say, it's doing the right thing, you're doing it *because* it's doing the right thing - not because it's your country. So "patriotism" seems to apply only when you favor your country even if it's doing the wrong thing - or, above others. It's more accurately called "nationalism," if you ask me - and given that the supposed principles on which the US is founded are explicitly presented as universals (even if the practice was not so universal), "American patriotism" in the sense of putting the US first is, in the larger sense, un-American. > > (in response to james' thread awhile back), but here's one: i like liz > phair's 4th album (i can never remember whether it's "pfair" or > "phair" and in looking it up - hey, a 5th album. i imagine it got > panned, or maybe just ignored?) First I have to figure out which album you mean...Exile...Whip-Smart...Lemonmeringuespacemonkey...self-titled (a/k/a "I Wish I Were Britney"*)...and Somebody's Miracle. Actually I kind of like a lot of Miracle. The best songs recorded for the s/t album weren't on it - my copy is a compilation of all the tracks that were floating around, iTunes exclusives, unreleased, yadda yadda - and I can't even remember what's on the actual CD. Anyway, with one or two exceptions I don't hate it as much as everyone did, mostly because the whole notion of "selling out" is kinda silly, plus Phair was never a purist in that regard anyway. Still, my estimation of her talents, and the likelihood that she'll have a long career full of good records, has been declining steadily since the first CD. also, i'm thinking of a number between 1 and 100. So am I. But did you know? There's actually more than *a* number between 1 and 100. - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 00:14:04 -0400 From: lep Subject: Re: the Shins and Tom lehrer 2fs says: > On 10/21/07, lep wrote: > > i hate it when stupid people ruin perfectly good words (or countries > > for that matter.) > > > I don't think "patriot" was ever a "perfectly good word." If it means > anything, it means putting your own country ahead of every other value. If > you're putting your country first because, say, it's doing the right thing, > you're doing it *because* it's doing the right thing - not because it's your > country. So "patriotism" seems to apply only when you favor your country > even if it's doing the wrong thing - or, above others. It's more accurately > called "nationalism," if you ask me - and given that the supposed principles > on which the US is founded are explicitly presented as universals (even if > the practice was not so universal), "American patriotism" in the sense of > putting the US first is, in the larger sense, un-American. i think you and i have different dictionaries. i would use in the word in the sense that i do believe this country has something to be proud of, and something to defend. i don't think pride is synonymous with mindless devotion. (okay, do i actually to say here that no, i'm not proud of everything this county has done, yes, could be better, and no, didn't vote for him, twice?) (well?) i just think it's pretty shitty that oftentimes, the term "patriot" is now used to describe, IMO, about the least patriotic types of people. but i guess it depend on what you mean by patriot ;) i guess it's rather like the term "christian" in that way. i hear the phrase "christian values" and i reach for my headphones ( <- stolen, yes.) it's another dirty word that's been claimed by people who i guess need words to attempt to compensate for their actions. > First I have to figure out which album you > mean...Exile...Whip-Smart...Lemonmeringuespacemonkey...self-titled > (a/k/a "I Wish I Were Britney"*)...and Somebody's Miracle. the "I Wish I Were Britney" is the one i mean (although along those lines, i'd say it's more "I Wish I Were Avril.") > Actually I kind of like a lot of Miracle. The best songs recorded for the > s/t album weren't on it - my copy is a compilation of all the tracks that > were floating around, iTunes exclusives, unreleased, yadda yadda - and I > can't even remember what's on the actual CD. Anyway, with one or two > exceptions I don't hate it as much as everyone did, mostly because the whole > notion of "selling out" is kinda silly, plus Phair was never a purist in > that regard anyway. do you know offhand any the titles to the "unreleased" songs that weren't on the 4th (s/t) album? > Still, my estimation of her talents, and the likelihood that she'll have a > long career full of good records, has been declining steadily since the > first CD. this is true. > But did you know? There's actually more than *a* number between 1 and 100. there may be even more than i can imagine. as ever, lauren - -- - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "People with opinions just go around bothering one another." - The Buddha ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 23:37:23 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: the Shins and Tom lehrer On 10/21/07, lep wrote: > > 2fs says:> > > > > I don't think "patriot" was ever a "perfectly good word." If it means > > anything, it means putting your own country ahead of every other value. > If > > you're putting your country first because, say, it's doing the right > thing, > > you're doing it *because* it's doing the right thing - not because it's > your > > country. So "patriotism" seems to apply only when you favor your country > > even if it's doing the wrong thing - or, above others. It's more > accurately > > called "nationalism," if you ask me - and given that the supposed > principles > > on which the US is founded are explicitly presented as universals (even > if > > the practice was not so universal), "American patriotism" in the sense > of > > putting the US first is, in the larger sense, un-American. > > i think you and i have different dictionaries. > > i would use in the word in the sense that i do believe this country > has something to be proud of, and something to defend. i don't think > pride is synonymous with mindless devotion. To put it another way: why *should* one be devoted to an abstract entity like one's nation? I mean, okay: if there's nothing better to do (and I mean that literally). But it's entirely an accident you were born here - and despite the fact that there are some things this country has to be proud of, the same is true of nearly any nation on earth - and every one of them also has plenty to be ashamed of. I mean, I wouldn't care, if it were something as harmless as preferring the New England Patriots to the Miami Dolphins. But typically, it's not. In any event: the fact that people who happened to have born and lived in roughly the same geographical area at some time in the past did good things has not much to do with you or with me. A man rushes into a burning building to save a child: if he does it in one place, he's a great American; if he did it some miles north, he'd be a great Canadian. Why should I, happening to have been born in America, be prouder of the first guy, who happened also to have been born in America, than of the second? Please note that none of the above means that (for example) I don't think people should work to improve one another's lives, where they are if only because that's likelier to be more effective, and within the arenas likeliest to have effect. To that extent - insofar as anything I do to try to, say, improve health care is likelier to have an effect in the US where I live than in Mongolia - that's "patriotism." I just think we'd all be better off if we ditched all the tribalism, and approached nations like linguists approach language: they're all different, interesting, and equally effective as languages (although, of course, nations can be more or less functional...but "patriotism" often gets in the way of that effectiveness, insofar as it creates a privileged class over and above others). - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 03:05:15 -0400 From: lep Subject: Re: the Shins and Tom lehrer 2fs says: > > i would use in the word in the sense that i do believe this country > > has something to be proud of, and something to defend. i don't think > > pride is synonymous with mindless devotion. > > To put it another way: why *should* one be devoted to an abstract entity > like one's nation? well, i'm not saying one *should* be. and you can throw around phrases like "devoted to an abstract entity" but i think you're being a bit dramatic. > I mean, okay: if there's nothing better to do (and I mean that literally). > But it's entirely an accident you were born here - and despite the fact that > there are some things this country has to be proud of, the same is true of > nearly any nation on earth - and every one of them also has plenty to be > ashamed of. it's _absolutely_ an accident that i was born here. i honestly don't know what that has to do with the issue. i disagree with the sort of "all nations sin" kind of thinking. well, not that they all don't sin, but that they all sin sort of equally. i mean, right now i'm working with two professors who left their home countries in order to have the freedom to pursue their studies (the professor i assist had to, smuggle the draft of his ph.d. thesis when he left his country of birth.) they've been more than welcome to return home, but, oddly enough, they choose to stay here. well, wait a second...out of four CS professors who've taught me in my masters program, actually _none_ are originally from this country. > I mean, I wouldn't care, if it were something as harmless as preferring the > New England Patriots to the Miami Dolphins. > > But typically, it's not. > In any event: the fact that people who happened to have born and lived in > roughly the same geographical area at some time in the past did good things > has not much to do with you or with me. A man rushes into a burning building > to save a child: if he does it in one place, he's a great American; if he > did it some miles north, he'd be a great Canadian. Why should I, happening > to have been born in America, be prouder of the first guy, who happened also > to have been born in America, than of the second? where do you get the idea that i'm saying one should be more proud of the first guy? and anyway, i don't see anything inherently "american" about saving a child. what i'm talking about is more like those things that are just as easily not mentioned. god forbid i start to sound sincere and start using phrases like "the values upon which this country was founded." call me crazy for taking a stand in the midst of all these unique and interesting countries, but, yes, i do think one can form preferences, e.g. yes, i think freedom is better than non-freedom. > Please note that none of the above means that (for example) I don't think > people should work to improve one another's lives, where they are if only > because that's likelier to be more effective, and within the arenas > likeliest to have effect. To that extent - insofar as anything I do to try > to, say, improve health care is likelier to have an effect in the US where I > live than in Mongolia - that's "patriotism." > > I just think we'd all be better off if we ditched all the tribalism, and > approached nations like linguists approach language: they're all different, > interesting, and equally effective as languages (although, of course, > nations can be more or less functional...but "patriotism" often gets in the > way of that effectiveness, insofar as it creates a privileged class over and > above others). again, i'm a bit lost - why does it create a privileged class? it's like we have a different definition of pride. i don't think pride has to be inherently competitive. i'm not saying "united states, yay! crush all others!" i'm not saying other people shouldn't be proud of where they live. or should be. or of where they don't live. they can do whatever the hell they want. well, maybe not. i always think i'm a non-interventionist at heart. but then "gross human rights violations" comes along, sounding like a bit of a deal-breaker**. i'm just ending up sounding defensive, which kind of defeats the point. maybe i should just say that one of the reasons i vote is that i would be ashamed not to. i mean, i agree, i can't take any credit for being born here, but that doesn't mean i have to take it for granted either. xo lauren, still thinking of a number between 1 and 100. ** to quote an old friend: "what's the use of being the world's only remaining superpower if we can't stop a little ethnic cleansing?" - -- - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "People with opinions just go around bothering one another." - The Buddha ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 08:25:26 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: the Shins and Tom lehrer On 10/22/07, lep wrote: > > 2fs says: > > > i disagree with the sort of "all nations sin" kind of thinking. well, > not that they all don't sin, but that they all sin sort of equally. i > mean, right now i'm working with two professors who left their home > countries in order to have the freedom to pursue their studies (the > professor i assist had to, smuggle the draft of his ph.d. thesis when > he left his country of birth.) they've been more than welcome to > return home, but, oddly enough, they choose to stay here. well, wait a > second...out of four CS professors who've taught me in my masters > program, actually _none_ are originally from this country. But insofar as they have that freedom, as a principle it's supposed to be extended to everyone - not just to US citizens. The problem arises when, for many people, "patriotism" is used as a means to prop up a belief that Americans are just better than other people solely because they were born in America. > > > has not much to do with you or with me. A man rushes into a burning > building > > to save a child: if he does it in one place, he's a great American; if > he > > did it some miles north, he'd be a great Canadian. Why should I, > happening > > to have been born in America, be prouder of the first guy, who happened > also > > to have been born in America, than of the second? > > where do you get the idea that i'm saying one should be more proud of > the first guy? *You're* not - but to a lot of people, the first example would be used as an example of being a "great American" and somehow reflect on the nation as a whole. And a lot of people would rather you be proud of that guy than of the Canadian guy. > > one can form preferences, e.g. yes, i think freedom is better than > non-freedom. Agreed. But what does that have to do with patriotism? That sounds facetious, but really, it isn't. In some ways, and concerning some areas of freedom, the US has a good record. In others, it does not. We have one of the highest (if not the highest) rates of infant mortality among Western nations, for example. How "free" is someone when they can't get medical care? Etc. If I am for freedom, that does not mean I have to be for freedom *as an American*. I'm for freedom *as a human being.* > nations can be more or less functional...but "patriotism" often gets in > the > > way of that effectiveness, insofar as it creates a privileged class over > and > > above others). > > again, i'm a bit lost - why does it create a privileged class? Because to many people who call themselves patriots, that means they will automatically favor an American over everyone else. Pick up the newspaper, and read about how many Americans have been killed in Iraq. How many Iraqis have been killed? A hell of a lot more...but they don't count, because they're not American. And of course there are many right now who'd argue, very vociferously, that American citizens have all kinds of rights that non-citizens in the US do not have. . i don't think pride has > to be inherently competitive. I'm not saying it does either. I'm saying only that when that pride is called "patriotism," often, it is. Not always. I know *you're* unlikely to say "US uber alles!" - but plenty of others are. i'm just ending up sounding defensive, which kind of defeats the > point. maybe i should just say that one of the reasons i vote is that > i would be ashamed not to. i mean, i agree, i can't take any credit > for being born here, but that doesn't mean i have to take it for > granted either. And I'm not saying you or anyone should. I vote too, always have - even though I often hold my nose while doing so, and even though I think our voting system is woefully undemocratic. I believe citizenship (of anywhere) does imply certain social obligations. If I were to emigrate to another country, as soon as I could (and as soon as I knew enough), I'd vote there, too. Not because I'd have thrown over my sense of "patriotism" to that other nation, but because I think people have an obligation to the people they live with and near and to try to improve the general quality of life. A lot of people call *that* patriotism - and that's fine; it's just that to me, it's not, because it doesn't involve borders. ** to quote an old friend: "what's the use of being the world's only > remaining superpower if we can't stop a little ethnic cleansing?" First, to be clear: I'm not assuming you agree with that, but...a huge problem is that so many Americans believe (a) we're exceptional and unique in the world, even to the extent of believing we're blessed by God, and (b) that uniqueness gives us power to do things that logic would suggest we can't - such as, oh say, intervene in another nation's internal affairs, blow things up and run people over with tanks in the middle of cities, and then expect them to be grateful for it - cuz you know here's this "democracy" thing we're insisting you use, unless of course you actually claim to have any real sovereignty and demand that our mercenary soldiers get the fuck out - then you've vastly overstepped your bounds, young man, and must be punished. Oh. Did I wander off-topic there a bit? Anyway: US soldiers aren't Jesus. Their mere presence, even in vast numbers, will not magically pacify populations and prevent insurgencies (say). And I think one reason people support such things is exactly an unreasonable belief in the power and efficacy of US soldiers ("they wouldn't dare do violence with the US Army right there!"), which comes with their being the agent of the Blessed Chosen Nation, America. But we're not. We're a country among others. But go to the American Legion and say things like, no, the US is not unique among all nations, or blessed by the Lord above - and I'll pretty much guarantee your patriotism will be called into question. Anyway, I'm curious what non-Americans think of all this hoo-hah - given that we have so many of them here... - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V16 #374 ********************************