From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V16 #321 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Thursday, September 6 2007 Volume 16 : Number 321 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: jawohl, mein Herr (war: Re: von David Duchovny gebumst) [Benjamin Luk] Re: jawohl, mein Herr (war: Re: von David Duchovny gebumst) [Benjamin Luk] Re: jawohl, mein Herr (war: Re: von David Duchovny gebumst) [Sebastian Ha] Re: jawohl, mein Herr (war: Re: von David Duchovny gebumst) [lep ] Re: Hot hot sibilant action ["Michael Sweeney" ] RE: reap ["Michael Sweeney" ] Re: jawohl, mein Herr (war: Re: von David Duchovny gebumst) [kevin ] RE: jawohl, mein Herr (war: Re: von David Duchovny gebumst) ["Bachman, Mi] RE: jawohl, mein Herr (war: Re: von David Duchovny gebumst) [Christopher ] Re: reap [Rex ] Re: lyric question [Rex ] Re: jawohl, mein Herr (war: Re: von David Duchovny gebumst) [Rex ] language seminar [Jill Brand ] Re: jawohl, mein Herr (war: Re: von David Duchovny gebumst) [grutness@sli] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 11:46:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Benjamin Lukoff Subject: Re: jawohl, mein Herr (war: Re: von David Duchovny gebumst) On Thu, 6 Sep 2007, Christopher Gross wrote: > I've often thought that the reason the more nationalistic sorts of > Americans hate France, and vice versa, is that they share the same > character faults. Two people who each think they're better than everyone > else are not get along well; neither will two countries that each think > they're the center of the world. Whereas, for example, a country that > just thinks it's the most beautiful can get along splendidly with one that > just thinks it's the bravest. Not saying the US is the center of the world necessarily, but what makes France think they are? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 11:49:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Benjamin Lukoff Subject: Re: jawohl, mein Herr (war: Re: von David Duchovny gebumst) On Thu, 6 Sep 2007, Sebastian Hagedorn wrote: > --On 5. September 2007 18:59:03 -0700 Benjamin Lukoff > wrote: > > > I've always wondered how to pronounce Bath. /ae/ makes me really sound > > American (and I take pains to do, for example, Leicester correctly), > > That's just like Lester, isn't it? As I understand it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 20:50:34 +0200 From: Sebastian Hagedorn Subject: Re: jawohl, mein Herr (war: Re: von David Duchovny gebumst) - -- Benjamin Lukoff is rumored to have mumbled on 6. September 2007 11:46:10 -0700 regarding Re: jawohl, mein Herr (war: Re: von David Duchovny gebumst): > Not saying the US is the center of the world necessarily, but what makes > France think they are? Good question, but they call themselves "la grande nation". - -- Sebastian Hagedorn Am alten Stellwerk 22, 50733 Kvln, Germany http://www.uni-koeln.de/~a0620/ "Being just contaminates the void" - Robyn Hitchcock ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 14:53:54 -0400 From: lep Subject: Re: jawohl, mein Herr (war: Re: von David Duchovny gebumst) Benjamin Lukoff says: > Not saying the US is the center of the world necessarily, but what makes > France think they are? they're assholes? as ever, lauren - -- - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "People with opinions just go around bothering one another." - The Buddha ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 15:08:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Gross Subject: Re: jawohl, mein Herr (war: Re: von David Duchovny gebumst) On Thu, 6 Sep 2007, Benjamin Lukoff wrote: > Not saying the US is the center of the world necessarily, but what makes > France think they are? The impression I've picked up is that French people, at least the more nationalistic ones, tend to think that France has led the world in the development of both political democracy, and "culture" in general: that is, music, literature and other arts, as well as food, wine and the finer things in life. Whether or not these beliefs are *true*, for either France or America, of course has no bearing on my main point: both France and America *think* that they're responsible for more of the good things in the world than any other country, and other countries should aspire to be more like them. Hence the animosity. Nationalists in the two countries figure they can't both be right. - --Chris (who doesn't hate any country -- except that damn Liechtenstein!) ______________________________________________________________________ Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog. chrisg@gwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:10:08 +0000 From: "Michael Sweeney" Subject: Re: lyric question lep, lep, leppo and the Laurens sez: >Aaron L. says: > >> It would be of particular interest to me at the moment, since I have so >>much free time on my hands and could while away some hours exploring other >>people's favorites that are unfamiliar to me. Potentially a good way to >>discover some new music. >> >> I've not followed the list this closely for a very long time, and have >>contributed more in the past couple of days than I have in years, despite >>having been an oft-lurky feg since... hmmm... maybe 1993? I got a phone >>call >>this afternoon confirming my start date for my new job as September 17. >>It's going to be a shock to my system. I'm getting used to having all >>this >>copious free time, even if it does get a bit boring sometimes. > >well, lurker or no, since you're on feglist, i presume you've seen >"buffy", all seven seasons. > >since you have some free time, perhaps you could help with some very >important needs of feglist. this would be a detailed analysis of the >series, focusing on particular characters [etc. & ad infinitum]... ...OK, Lauren dear, you know how much I appreciate you (getting igored in Philly notwithstanding) (yeah, I know - you wrote a sign), but, really, are you trying to drive me absolutely crazy with teh Buffy and all? I mean, I do not think that even Eb endured this much before shuffling crabwise (over the Andalusian extensions, etc.) off the list... ...Don't make me try to start a "thirtysomething" discussion thread -- because I'll do it!!! (and, uh, no one will respond...but...oh well...) Michael Sweeney ...Really, I guess I identified elements of all 3 male leads in myself: a touch of Gary's artsy-avant-garde-ness, far too much of Elliott's neuroses and sarcasm, and a solid dollop of Michael's responsibility and smarts (plus, the name) (although I could never stand Hope...) _________________________________________________________________ Discover sweet stuff waiting for you at the Messenger Cafe. Claim your treat today! http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_SeptHMtagline2 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:30:01 +0000 From: "Michael Sweeney" Subject: Re: Hot hot sibilant action Sebastian said: >- -- Michael Sweeney is rumored to have mumbled >on 6. September 2007 05:34:39 +0000 regarding Re: Hot hot sibilant action: > >>[various "Blues Brothers" references] > >OK, OK, I hnink now everyone's got it, including me ... I should've caught >on earlier, but it's been a while. In my circle of friends those references >were anything but obscure - 20 years ago! ,,,Hard to believe it was more than 27 years ago now that I was working at Lincoln Mall Cinema, the summer before college, and -- along with my lankier friend, Joe -- got dressed up as Jake and Elwood for a promo at the theater, with the local police chasing us into the parking lot and then us passing out movie passes and soundtracks to the people in line. A casting agent saw us and gave us her card...and we got to be in a crowd scene in a Gary Coleman movie that summer (as ourselves, rather than the Blues Bros.) before going away to school and losing touch with the agent. Ahhh -- the "career" path not chosen (yeah, right...and I accidentally pissed off the director of that Coleman movie by showing up, looking for him and dropping his name (as the agent told us to), until I found out that the guy shushing me on the train-platform set WAS the director...oh well). Michael Sweeney ...and construction work (while freelancing) on the sets of "Baby's Day Out" and "U.S. Marshals" does NOT count toward said putative career (although I DID get to eat lobster and filet next to the very nice Joe Mantegna on the last day of the "Baby" shoot...) _________________________________________________________________ Test your celebrity IQ. Play Red Carpet Reveal and earn great prizes! http://club.live.com/red_carpet_reveal.aspx?icid=redcarpet_hotmailtextlink2 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:48:12 +0000 From: "Michael Sweeney" Subject: RE: reap kevin said: >>John Candy used to do a great Pavarotti impression during the halcyon >>days of SCTV. > >Johnny LaRue lives! No crane shots, LaRue!!! Michael "I only use this chair for respect!" Sweeney _________________________________________________________________ Kick back and relax with hot games and cool activities at the Messenger Cafi. http://www.cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_SeptHMtagline1 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:52:05 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: kevin Subject: Re: jawohl, mein Herr (war: Re: von David Duchovny gebumst) France >and America *think* that they're responsible for more of the good things >in the world than any other country, and other countries should aspire to >be more like them. Hence the animosity. Nationalists in the two >countries figure they can't both be right. To quote the great Henry Rollins, I'm a 24 hour, 7 day a week, 365 day a year American - and I have to admit that from a cultural perspective the frogs get my vote every time (except in the area of pop music, which, like, "French pop music" is the first thing I think of when examples of oxymoron come to mind). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 16:07:39 -0400 From: "Bachman, Michael" Subject: RE: reap - -----Original Message----- From: owner-fegmaniax@smoe.org [mailto:owner-fegmaniax@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Michael Sweeney Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 3:48 PM To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Subject: RE: reap kevin said: >>>John Candy used to do a great Pavarotti impression during the halcyon >>days of SCTV. >> >>Johnny LaRue lives! Michael "Guy Caballero" Sweeney said: >No crane shots, LaRue!!! And quit trying to get those lovable McKenzie brothers to wash your car! Michael "not William" B. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 16:53:35 -0400 From: "Bachman, Michael" Subject: RE: jawohl, mein Herr (war: Re: von David Duchovny gebumst) - -----Original Message----- From: owner-fegmaniax@smoe.org [mailto:owner-fegmaniax@smoe.org] On Behalf Of kevin Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 3:52 PM To: Christopher Gross; Squidmaniax! Subject: Re: jawohl, mein Herr (war: Re: von David Duchovny gebumst) >>France >and America *think* that they're responsible for more of the good things >in the world than any other country, and other countries should aspire to >be more like them. Hence the animosity. Nationalists in the two >countries figure they can't both be right. Chris wrote: >To quote the great Henry Rollins, I'm a 24 hour, 7 day a week, 365 day a year American - and I have to admit that from a cultural perspective the frogs get my vote every time (except in the area of pop music, which, like, "French pop music" is the first thing I think of when examples of oxymoron come to mind). Certainly not an oxymoron in the 1960's and 1970's with the likes of Francoise Hardy, Serge Gainsbourg, Jane Birken, Michael Legrand and Claudine Longet. Keren Ann, Coralie Clement, Nouvelle Vague and Carla Bruni are current favorites of mine, as French pop music is the strongest it's been in years. Michael B. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 18:22:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Gross Subject: RE: jawohl, mein Herr (war: Re: von David Duchovny gebumst) On Thu, 6 Sep 2007, Bachman, Michael wrote: > Chris wrote: > >To quote the great Henry Rollins, I'm a 24 hour, 7 day a week, 365 day > a year American - and I have to admit that from a cultural perspective > the frogs get my vote every time (except in the area of pop music, > which, like, "French pop music" is the first thing I think of when > examples of oxymoron come to mind). For the record, it was Kevin who wrote that part. I pretty much agree with it, though -- the being utterly American part, the giving the French the nod for culture part, *and* the exception for pop music part. The latter is not because I have anything against French pop music (which I know little about), but because of the sheer strength of American pop music over the past century. It's the American area of superiority par excellence (heh). In _Snow Crash_, Neal Stephenson said that the three things Americans do better than anyone else are software, Hollywood-style (non-arthouse) movies, and pizza delivery; I'd substitute pop music for one of those three, though I can't decide which. - --Chris ______________________________________________________________________ Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog. chrisg@gwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 17:08:16 -0700 From: Rex Subject: Re: reap On 9/6/07, Bachman, Michael wrote: > > lep wrote: > >> luciano pavarotti, 71 > > Stewart wrote: > >Well, at least we'll get some sleep ... > > John Candy used to do a great Pavarotti impression during the halcyon > days of SCTV. No no no, that was *Johnny* Pavarotti. - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 17:16:25 -0700 From: Rex Subject: Re: lyric question On 9/6/07, Michael Sweeney wrote: > > > ...Don't make me try to start a "thirtysomething" discussion thread -- > because I'll do it!!! (and, uh, no one will respond...but...oh well...) But we'd all read it! Well, I mean, if nobody responded, it'd be a short thread for us to read, but still... Can't think of any good TV to start threads about. We just did Twin Peaks, and I assume The Prisoner has been done to death. - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 17:23:08 -0700 From: Rex Subject: Re: jawohl, mein Herr (war: Re: von David Duchovny gebumst) On 9/6/07, Benjamin Lukoff wrote: > > > Not saying the US is the center of the world necessarily, but what makes > France think they are? Geography? It's kind of like the "middle" of Europe. I think Chris called it, though. Unless there's some other forgotten cultural piss-off involving us not delivering on whatever they were supposed to get in exchange for that big statue of the chick with the pointy crown... - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 17:26:08 -0700 From: Rex Subject: Re: jawohl, mein Herr (war: Re: von David Duchovny gebumst) On 9/6/07, Christopher Gross wrote: > > In _Snow Crash_, Neal Stephenson said that the three > things Americans do better than anyone else are software, Hollywood-style > (non-arthouse) movies, and pizza delivery; I'd substitute pop music for > one of those three, though I can't decide which. I can't help but like Neal Stephenson. I was really bummed when the Baroque Cycle ended. That was escapism of the highest order when I needed it badly. I don't dislike the French at all, but it's more trouble than it's worth to stick up for them. I don't think there's any real debate that all their cheese is better than what we call "American cheese". - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 17:27:18 -0700 From: Rex Subject: Everybody needs a little TL;DR... Death Cab for Cutie, "Transatlanticism". I like how Gibbard extends sentences across whole verses, complete with conversational asides and more proper conjugation than you get in your average rock song, usually in the service of some quirky observational idea that hangs together pretty well. It puts me in the mind of a more romantically melancholy David Byrne (or somebody), or a less loopy Wayne Coyne. I don't think I'd ever listened to this album all the way through before, but I sure have heard a lot of the songs. I think DCFC may suffer from American Music Club Disease (that is, a body of work so consistent that the first release I hear from them becomes, by default, my favorite), rendering, perhaps oddly, "Plans" the definitive record for me, but I think I'll put in some more time with the other records and see what happens. The Dream Syndicate, "Medicine Show". I guess this is kind of known as the disappointing follow-up to "Days of Wine & Roses", with good songs but too-tame production. I've actually heard the later "Ghost Stories" and some Steve Wynn solo records, and thus the idea of a more sedate DS is not a shocker to me, so let's see where this goes. It certainly sounds less like a band than "Days", but few things sound *more* like a band than "Days", and we all know what a *really* overproduced record from this era sounds like, and this is not that bad. It throws all the focus on Wynn's songs, though, which seem to be in transition as well, between that early elemental visceral thing and the later craftsman-like character studies. Here he seems to be sticking to that "down and out in the modern west" kind of hard-case loser ballad that seems to have preoccupied half of the songwriters in LA, from Warren Zevon to Mike Ness, at one time or another. He does a pretty good job even for that crowded field some unique lyrical touches and committed vocals but setting these types of lyrics to what often sounds like your average roadhouse blues music is a little too obvious, and does the songs a bit of a disservice. This isn't bad, but in this same vein, I found both the Long Ryders and Green on Red discs from yesterday to be a good deal more musically inviting, and of course it's barely related to "Days" but I knew that going in. (This is some kind of expanded version which includes a live version of "Tell Me When It's Over" which is heavy on piano and slap-bass, and yes, damn straight, that's a problem.) The Long Winters, "Putting the Days to Bed". Okay, to be honest, while looking up the Long Ryders albums to burn, I saw The Long Winters right next to them and thought, hey, I didn't listen to their last album enough, and I loved the one before that I should check that out again. Indeed, I really do like it. For some reason, the singer's voice, phrasing and writing really work for me maybe a case of personal symbolism that just happens to resonate with my own, or maybe just an accident of the mood I was in when I first heard it who knows. The lyrics have a lot of phraseology that leaps out at me and screams, "Why didn't you think of that?" little details that for one reason or another have rarely if ever crossed over from day to day life to a rock song, thus making dry-erase boards, air force retirees, and second-generation groupies seem exotic in some way some of the songs are narratives with enough specificity of language to really come alive, others are more impressionistic, but not too ethereal or cryptic, and the musical settings are always slightly tweaked power-pop, but never generic. It basically does a lot of what I wish those Fountains of Wayne albums did better, or more of, and doesn't fall far short of The New Pornographers. There's probably some kind of Robyn link, too, via the extended R.E.M./YFF/M5network or at least Sean Nelson, I think. Giant Sand, "Chore of Enchantment". Ever since I saw him as an opening act quite some years ago, I have totally trusted Howe Gelb for some reason. That said, every Giant Sand, solo, and side-project record I've ever heard has been, and maybe this is the name of the game, inconsistent, none of them quite sticking with me as an album. The closest, aside from the covers album (which is great), was the GS's "Centre of the Universe", and a lot of fans seem to split between that on and "Chore" as the best, but it's taken me a while to find this one. I guess I keep thinking that, for someone so Neil Young-influenced and band-identified for so long, the guy has to have a "Zuma" in his back catalog, but maybe "Centre" is as close as it gets. I need to listen to this (and the Grizzly Bear record) in the car, where, sadly, the background noise is practically nil compared to the din of the various AC's here at my desk at work. It strikes me that there might be a couple of reasons why Howe doesn't often just flat-out rock his interests just lie elsewhere, in more whispery territory, or maybe he just doesn't have the vocal range (he has Neil's hushed lower register down cold, but rarely ventures beyond it). Or maybe he's just sad (although he seems to have a good enough sense of humor). Whatever is up with it, I still think he's cool and enjoy spending time in his world, even if there's not one single album that hold my attention although I may just put "Centre" on the playlist for tomorrow. The Slits, "Return of the Giant Damn Slits". The second album. Supposedly more commercial, which is, I suppose, why it opens with a one-chord Japanese-language minimalist-Gaiaist drone. I love this band, and I can't imagine how I managed to ignore them until last year I guess I thought that they were more famous for non-musical novelty reasons, and assumed that The Raincoats were sort of one of a kind. By the time of both of their proper albums, though, the Slits seem to have been even weirder than The Raincoats maybe some of it comes from the fact that they were still doing some of their early "punk" songs in this new dub-type experimental idiom, but the fact that it almost resembles something recognizable (punk or dub or something) makes it sound that much more otherworldly (whereas The Raincoats seem to have been outside of most traditions from the get-go) this whole record should have been named after the song "Animal Space". It's a languid tour of a landscape that's disturbing and comforting in equal measures. Ari Up doesn't come up with anything quite as spine-tinglingly arresting as that screech in "Shoplifting", but she's given even less incentive to stay anchored to the minimal chord structures and wanders as she will, veering from weird vibrato to semi-operatic wail to whispered tribal clicking or at least seems to be wandering, until you realize she's started making perfect sense while you weren't paying attention. The music veers in a couple of different directions, too Tessa Politt's bass is almost rigorously formalistic in its dubbishness, but Viv Albertine (who must certainly be the, erm, Prettiest Guitarist of All Time Evar, if you're me) seems to invent a couple of totally new ways to play the instrument without putting a whole lot of effort into it, or, perhaps, even giving a shit, and that tension sounds not at all unlike the Levene/Wobble version of P.I.L.. The album is pretty damned close to the equal of "Cut"; if there are not quite as many classic "songs", it makes up for that by sounding all of a piece, the music having been created to sound this way instead of translated out of punkese. Like a lot of what was then semi-experimental beat-oriented music from that time, it barely sounds dated at all. Nonetheless, I think it just sounds like noise to everyone around me. The Three O'Clock, "Sixteen Tambourines". Woo hoo, more Paisley Underground. Well, right off the bat, the synths and drum sounds make this a lot more of-its-era than just about any of the other similar stuff I've auditioned lately. But by the same token the songs pop like nobody's business, the band is really tight, and you can certainly see why someone would've thought this band was promising enough to dress them up in trendy clothes (and production) and see what they could get out of it. Funny how the more money was thrown at a record in the mid-'80's, the goofier it sounds two decades later foolish Earthmen! Anyway, I know a few Three O'Clock songs and a bit of what to expect from the Scott Miller association. And really, many of these songs should have been hits, and if they had, we'd forgive their production more easily, I reckon. The way the sound kinda splits the difference between the '60's and the '80's reminds of T.Rex, for some reason the vocal register is a tad bit higher and there's not so much boogie-woogie, but the sense of melody, and the groovy-fab, perhaps-vacuous world being talked about in the lyrics doesn't feel too far from Bolan's. Robyn Hitchcock, "Groovy Decoy" (vinyl rip). Speaking of oddly dated '80's records that sound like they should have been treated more like '60's recordings well, of course I've heard this before, but probably not in this form and sequence since well before the Rhino reissues came out, and it seems like the only thing Yep Roc is giving us is a downloadable version of "Decay", might as well give this a whirl. Well the songs have been buffed to within an inch of their lives (or a Three O'Clock record), but of course that's not the only problem. In all honesty "Fegmania!" is not that much less dated-sounding, but there Robyn had the songs, the band, and most importantly a strong idea of what to do with them. Most of the songs aren't bad, but the lack of commitment on Robyn's part is pretty apparent. "Cars" is of course a great song from "Gotta Let This Hen Out" as far as I'm concerned; what exactly was going on with "Young People Scream" still eludes me, and everyone should've known better than to try to make "When I Was a Kid" into some kind of peppy little number (whatever that first chord is, it should not "bounce" that way). But for some reason, it's always fun to hear "The Rain" (because I forget that it exists) and "Nightride to Trinidad", because at least its directionlessness results in something mighty amusing but why did I never associate it with Dylan before now? The Long Ryders, "The State of Our Union". Scrappier from the start than "Two-Fisted Tales", it's another damned fine record, either way ahead of or slightly after its time. It's kinda weird, but when the raw-sounding opening song "Looking for Lewis & Clark" reels off a few of the political realities of the time (Apartheid and such) it puts me back in the reality of the '80's landscape more than any battery of gated tom-toms ever could it's just more immediate, and more lived-in. What was the deal with this stuff at the time? Too country to be either "Heartland" or alternative rock, and too rocking and alternative to be country? Or were people just stupid? As opposed to now, when people are awesomely brilliant and recognize every great musical artist immediately? Okay, pretend I didn't ask that. UPDATE, Von Sudenfed. This sounds really good cranked up really loud in the car, and I am tempted to get some of those dorky spinning whirligig rim things put onto my new Toyota hatchback awesome-mobile and drive around town blasting this shit for a week or so just to see what kind of looks it gets me. I bet chicks will frickin' DIG that, foo. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 20:30:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Jill Brand Subject: language seminar Sebastian wrote: " I suppose there are those that pronounce it "tschungel", but that's not correct." That's the only way that I've ever heard it pronounced. Lauren, yes, I met Howard Devoto at a press event in NYC in 1983 (try to imagine that anyone actually cared enough to have a press event for him) because my friend Steven had a public access TV show and was able to get passes. After the Q&A, I spoke to him for a bit. I can NEVER think of anything clever or witty to say when faced with greatness. Usually, I come with home baked/cooked goods, and that's how I wow them. Just ask Dave Davies. I feel partially responsible for his stroke, but I did, on more than one occasion (and by request) make homemade saag paneer (I made the paneer from scratch) for him. I love Jerky Version of a Dream, but since I don't know how to get it on CD and don't have a new-fangled machine to put vinyl/tape onto CD, I hardly ever listen to it. Jill, who really does procrastinate when she procrastinates ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 12:41:26 +1200 From: grutness@slingshot.co.nz Subject: Re: jawohl, mein Herr (war: Re: von David Duchovny gebumst) >On 9/5/07, grutness@slingshot.co.nz ><grutness@slingshot.co.nz> wrote: > > >I've always wondered how to pronounce Bath. /ae/ makes me really sound >>American (and I take pains to do, for example, Leicester correctly), but >>/a/ makes me sound oh so affected. > >yeah, that's a good point, where accent and pronunciation are >intertwined. It sounds just as odd to insist in calling Paris >"Paree". The most obvious "americanism" in the pronunciation of place >names in the UK is the I in "shire", which is fine when you're >talking about "a shire" (like in the LoTR), but when it's part of a >place name (like Shropshire, say) it's a short ee sound (to rhyme >with "fear"). > > > >I've even heard it (from British speakers) as a near schwa sound - >close to "Shropsher." Coincidentally, about a year ago I was >listening to Traffic's "Berkshire Poppies," and it occurred to me >that the vowels in "Berkshire" as Winwood pronounces it simply do >not exist in American English. The first syllable, of course, is >closer to "bark" than "berk" - but it's pitched closer to (but not >at) the broad "a" (rhyming with "mock") than to the nasal, American >"r" sound - but it's more closed* than that "a" sound. (* not a >technical term - although it might be - just that I'[m not a >linguist) - whereas the second syllable's vowel is very nearly like >a French "u." If you wanted to render it in everyday phonetics, it >would be approximately BOK-shih - with that last syllable a bit >closer to a long "e" sound, and even the first one nowhere near so >flat as the typical American might pronounce it. yeah, the schwa and the ee would be the two extremes of the sound, with most places somewhere along that axis. I was also forgetting that the word "fear", pronounced with most American accents, would have a longer vowel (and r) than in the UK! And Stewart's right, of course. I flattened all the vowels and I threw the "r" away. Scotland has, of course, it's own brands of pronunciation that differ from these immensely. As to Berkshire/Berkeley, see also Derby - both the city and the sporting duel are pronounced in the UK with the A sound from Car. Hertfordshire does the same... it seems to be a -er- = -ar- thing >--> Americans have more pronunciations for the word "Worcestershire" >(as in "___ sauce") than perhaps any other single word in the >language. <-- > >Trying to think of all the various pronunciations I've heard through >the years. > >Woostersher >Wustersher >Wustershyre >Worsestersheer >Woarstersher ... > >... I could literally go on for probably 30 more lines without a pause. ISTR a comedy sketch many years ago featuring a Russian agent undercover in the UK trying to blend in by running a small boarding house in that part of the country. He greeted visitors with a friendly "Wulcome to sunny Warchestershire!" Mind you, I used to live in the Northants village of Croughton, which was pronounced in one of two ways, depending on which end of the village you loved in (Croh-tun/Craow-ton)! James - -- James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.- =-.-=-.-=-.- You talk to me as if from a distance .-=-.-=-.-=-. -=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time .-=- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V16 #321 ********************************