From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V16 #168 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Thursday, April 19 2007 Volume 16 : Number 168 Today's Subjects: ----------------- feglist leonard cohen mention!!!!!!! ["Lauren Elizabeth" ] NYC invaded by clowns [kevin ] "i dreamed i was taller than picasso" ["Lauren Elizabeth" ] Re: like you're dying to know what i just got... ["Lauren Elizabeth" ] Re: Gays, guns, and guts made the Feglist free... [2fs ] Re: Can somebody please change the subject? [2fs ] Re: NYC invaded by clowns [2fs ] Re: [2fs ] six? [grutness@slingshot.co.nz] Re: NYC invaded by clowns [Jeff Dwarf ] Re: rights [2fs ] Re: six? [2fs ] Re: six? [kevin ] "we're in luck, we're not there" ["Lauren Elizabeth" Subject: feglist leonard cohen mention!!!!!!! kevin says: > np Songs Of Leonard Cohen yay! you should watch this to go with it. i swear he starts tearing up at the end: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocq_noEO2uU x "you're living for nothing, i hope you're keeping a record" o p.s. but you still owe me $20.00, kind sir. - -- - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "People with opinions just go around bothering one another." - The Buddha ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 17:19:48 -0400 From: "Lauren Elizabeth" Subject: ask the feglist oracle feglist oracle, seven digests to-day so far. am i misremembering or is 4/16 is kicking 9/11's butt? xo - -- - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "People with opinions just go around bothering one another." - The Buddha ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 14:27:34 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: kevin Subject: NYC invaded by clowns Any of y'all in NYC might benefit by seeing this: http://www.notjustforshockvalue.com/images/Press_Release.pdf I've worked with Kathy Horesji back in my theater daze and she's a treat to watch onstage. The only person I know who went to Ringling Brothers Clown College, I asked her once how they get all those people in those little clown cars and she said "Everybody lays down flat and hopes that nobody farts." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 17:46:26 -0400 From: "Lauren Elizabeth" Subject: "i dreamed i was taller than picasso" hi fegs, people have posted some dreams here as of late which reminded of jonathan borofsky: http://www.borofsky.com/dreams.htm i adore this guy. he's all kinds of fun. i have no idea what he's up to, but years ago he had a wonderful show in philadelphia and i even took the train down to see a show of his in D.C. it was the kind of art show that kids love - all kinds of sculpture and paintings everywhere, things hanging from the ceiling, things making noises, a cold-war ping-pong table. he has a little obsession with numbering which he did as sort of a meditation: http://www.borofsky.com/numbers.htm he would count on paper. he often used graph paper and put one digit per square. when he would make a sculpture or a painting he would write on it what number he was on in his counting, e.g. see lower right corner of: http://www.borofsky.com/individual/mymaleselfmyfemaleself%5Bi%5D/mymaleselfmyfemaleself%5Bi%5Da01.jpg he had stacks and stacks of this paper with these numbers on it and would include the stacks in his exhibitions. i found it kind of fascinating  he seemed to use the numbering to escape all the thinking he did the rest of the time. i read an interview with him once and he mentioned he had gotten in a fight with his girlfriend and she had thrown out a couple hundred thousand numbers of "work." ouch. main site: http://www.borofsky.com/index.html i recently read he went to cmu at least for awhile. go team. xo - -- - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "People with opinions just go around bothering one another." - The Buddha ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 15:14:39 -0400 (EDT) From: djini@voicenet.com Subject: Re: by any other name... On 4/18/07, Benjamin Lukoff wrote: >> > Agreed, but Sebastian did say that he's the only guy in the book club, >> > and if you want to introduce people to a new genre and actually like it, >> > probably best not to start off with a writer who notoriously pisses off >> > women. For the record, I've read and enjoyed a lot of Heinlein - he's >> > just not an author I would have ever wanted to meet at a party. >> So that's the thing--why DOES he have such a reputation for pissing off >> women? Is it just that most people, of whatever sex, aren't reading their >> book club titles very deeply? More like a generation of girls reading sf in the 70s and 80s and thinking, "grok *this* Jubal, I'm going to go find Friday and then she and I are so outta here." And 2fs wrote: > Well, my wife's reason is that in seemingly all of his books, there's some > wise old guy who, somehow, ends up in bed with a young, gloriously sexy > young woman, whose sexuality seems suspiciously calibrated to fulfill male > sexual fantasies rather than more realistically representing actual young > women's sexualities. Bingo. Which doesn't mean that I don't think that his ideas are interesting and his books important and influential, and even kind of funny. > To be fair, it's been years since I've read him...and I was more likely to > be bugged by such things in literature when I was younger. Obviously, when your identity is more established it's easier to ignore or understand in context things that can seriously upset you as a child/teen. I hated the books for girls (Judy Blume, shudder) and it was frustrating that in the books I did like the women were mostly ornamental at best. Jeanne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 15:01:49 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: kevin Subject: Re: Seems pretty Pythagorean if you ask me. Of course, occasionally when I get too bored at work I'll open up a page in Excel and start listing prime numbers, so... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 18:02:14 -0400 From: "Lauren Elizabeth" Subject: Re: like you're dying to know what i just got... MJ says: > Semi-failed intellectuals, or at lease of the eastside Manhattan > bourgeoisie is of course a main theme in "Metropolitan" yes, that hadn't occurred to me as being one of the reasons i liked it so much. > One of Scarlett's first movies as a pre-teen, "Manny and Lo", is decent. > I really like her in "American Rhapsody", a very interesting true story > of a young girl left behind by her family in communist Hungary. Scarlett > plays the girl as a teenager in the second half of the movie. The girl > grew up to be one of Francis Ford Coppola's top assistants, Eva Garos. i went to look up what year "manny and lo" was...scarlett's quite the busy little bee. i see she's making another movie with mr. allen, yay. http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0424060/ > Very good acting by Michael Douglas. I thought with "LA Confidential" > and "The Wonder Boys" that Curtis Hanson would move to the very top tier > of directors, but he has seemed to lost his way lately with less than > stellar movies like "In Her Shoes". i had no idea the same director had done those three movies. i haven't seen "in her shoes" but i must confess that i have some sort of innate prejudice about any movie with cameron diaz in it. she bugs me and i don't really don't know why other than i have some vague (and for all i know completely unfounded) impression that she's not very bright. xo - -- - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "People with opinions just go around bothering one another." - The Buddha ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 15:06:56 -0700 From: "Jason Brown" Subject: Re: like you're dying to know what i just got... On 4/19/07, Bachman, Michael wrote: > Very good acting by Michael Douglas. I thought with "LA Confidential" > and "The Wonder Boys" that Curtis Hanson would move to the very top tier > of directors, but he has seemed to lost his way lately with less than > stellar movies like "In Her Shoes". "In Her Shoes" was an excellent movie on par with "Wonder Boys" even. Toni Collete was wonderful and Cameron Diaz was pretty good too. It bizarrely manages to be very much a "chick flick" and supersede the genre at the same time. Its one of the few films that gets sibling love and sibling rivalry right. Also for a child of acrimonious divorce, "The Squid and the Whale" is the best divorce movie ever. Just as weird, hilarious, and depressing as that period in my childhood. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 00:29:56 +0200 From: Sebastian Hagedorn Subject: RE: rights - -- Capuchin is rumored to have mumbled on 19. April 2007 12:59:55 -0700 regarding RE: rights: > Second, you claim that people who choose not to join a union are somehow > suffering because of the union's existence. I can only guess at why you > think that's true, so please feel free to interject your real reason if I > missed it. > > If your claim is that workers are willing to work at lower rates and are > being denied jobs because of union rules, you're right. But that doesn't > mean the work isn't getting done or that anybody is unemployed because of > this practice. That low-wage, non-union worker would replace a > high-wage, union worker and the net effect would be lower income with the > same level of employment. I don't like it, but I was surprised when I heard a counterargument on a TV debate one time that actually made sense! Here it is: the "left" or the unions believe mistakenly that work is a fixed size. When productivity increases, however, (for example due to lower wages) there will be *more* work. So it could actually be, from the perspective of *one* company(!), that lower wages would lead to *more* employment. However, I think even this (quite convincing) argument has a blind spot: the increase in employment for the one company most likely results in a decrease of work for its comeptitors. So if you look at it from a broader scope, you don't gain anything. > Sure, we could kill our labor unions and compete economically by dropping > our standard of living through the floor. Or we could keep our unions > until every piece of production that is economically viable has moved > overseas and our standard of living drops because of massive > unemployment. Either way, we lose. That's the way it looks right now. - -- Sebastian Hagedorn Am alten Stellwerk 22, 50733 Kvln, Germany http://www.uni-koeln.de/~a0620/ "Being just contaminates the void" - Robyn Hitchcock ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 17:34:11 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: Gays, guns, and guts made the Feglist free... Aaargh! Caught between the pincers of anarcho-libertarianism and capitalist libertarianism! Anyway: On 4/19/07, Capuchin wrote: > > On Thu, 19 Apr 2007, 2fs wrote: > > What rights that you would otherwise exercise are being infringed upon > > by the government? > > Government primarily exists to enforce property relations. Every hungry > person is a victim of the government impinging upon their freedom. Same > goes for every homeless person. > > There are as many homeless people in the USA as there are people whose > income exceeds US$200,000 annually. Who is suffering more from government > interference? Does government necessarily exist primarily to enforce property relations? And what if those property relations were more equitable? My statement was in response to Ferris's assertion that government is the chief infringer upon people's rights, which was a point in his argument against government generally. I actually was going to argue that corporate policies that impoverish people are far more infringing...but I can't say everything at once, and at some level Cap is right that the government - the current one at least, not necessarily government generally - enforces that impoverishment. Ferris came back with: > Attempts to make a national ban on same-sex marriage? Doesn't directly > affect me, but it affects friends of mine. Drug laws? I could come up > with more if I had time. Yes...but for most people, these positions go *along with* pro-capitalist, generally "right-wing" ideologies. And so, for example, people who voted for Bush because they believe Republicans are good for property rights quite often also vote because they're against gay rights and think drugs are evil. There are more things in heaven and earth than your libertarianism, Ferris... Anyway: My position, which more or less arises out of the ideas I mentioned in my last post concerning interdependency, is that "government" is what we call that organization and structure which might be able, in certain structures and given certain philosophies, to ensure that people do not starve, say, and to perform or enable the performance of certain socially necessary functions that other sectors of society would not, as for example those socially necessary functions that do not make short-term profits. Let's just take collecting garbage and public sanitation as a f'rinstance there. > > > > But the main thing you're forgetting here - and the reason Der Kommander > > brought this up a few days ago - is that in a representative democracy, > > the government or the state is not properly conceived of as a separate, > > independent entity. > > Well, clearly, Jeffrey, your "democracy" is not compatible with the > concept of the individual. When the majority rules, the minority suffers > and the individual is the smallest minority. Sure, 95% of the wealth is > controlled by 4% of the population. But even if 95% of the wealth is > controlled by ONE PERSON, it would be an infringment on their rights as > individuals to restrict their ability to exert that control in any way > they like. Clearly, the only political system consistent with > individualism is absolute monarchy where all property is the property of > the Crown and people work in order to receive sustenance from their > benefactor. You know, I'm genuinely not sure what extent any of that is intended ironically. I'll play dumb and assume none of it is. "Democracy" means much more than mere "majority rule" - although given the current prevalence of such an impoverished definition, and given the abuse the term suffers under the Bush administration (which imagines it's the sort of thing you can give people by force, like an unpleasant-tasting medicine that's good for them), I should have used a different word. Anyway: what I mean is the principle that people's interests should be expressible and represented, and that there should be some sort of proportionality in a governing body aligned with the distribution of those interests. The reason for that is that people are generally far more willing to relinquish their preferences in favor of competing proposals if it seems that (a) more people prefer the competing proposal; (b) their interests remain heard, such that it's possible that in the future they might persuade others of the justness of their position, and (c) that such arrangements (as implied in "b") are not etched in stone but are changeable. A more controversial proposal might be that just as in any other endeavor, some people are more skilled and knowledgeable, the same is true of governing: this is why having direct plebiscites for every last thing would (beyond its impracticality) be difficult. The people actually governing should be chosen for such intelligence, skill...and ethical foresight, to sometimes do the right thing even against the majority (such as, say, ending slavery). In essence, any society recognizes that not every individual desire can be fulfilled, that individuals cannot do just whatever they want, because doing so might harm other people. Any society is an art of compromise. Most people learn this as children, by the way - for some reason, even though we teach children that, once they begin to enter adulthood we start teaching (more by action than overtly) that in fact the idea is to put yourself in a position such that your unbounded selfishness *can* be enacted. The problem comes when you're all absolutist about anything. I find it amusing: in their recent posts, both Ferris and Cap seem to suggest that any government structure that restricts the behavior of individuals in any way is inherently oppressive. ("Now we see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!") You two really should get along better than you do. The concept of interdependence is relevant here, too, I think. There can be no such thing as a society if every individual can simply do whatever he or she wants to do; people would (for example) be unable to plan for the future in any way because there would be no ongoing structure that would make certain actions predictable. On the other hand, a society - okay, a government - that rigidly attempts to control every individual's every action - as, for example, Stalinism, complete with its five- and ten-year plans, etc. - cannot work, not only because few people will consent to such tyranny (tyranny because no sense of the people's - taken not en masse but as collections of individuals - interests is polled, and therefore meaning that the state has to rely on force) but because such systemic inflexibility responds only with great difficulty to changing situations. Look, I get the whole "dynamism of capitalism" thing. As I've said before, it's a great engine of progress. The problem is, without any sort of countervailing force, it's impossible to steer, or to brake. And too many people find themselves chained to the tracks - by poverty, by despair, by ill health, corporate-led warmongering, etc. What I ask of government is that it be capable of steering that engine, braking it when necessary, while still respecting that (oops: metaphor shift) its waves *are* made up of individual droplets of water, which can neither form a wave each on its own nor permanently meld into a solid wave...except when frozen, inflexible, and motionless. - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 17:37:39 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: reap at virginia tech On 4/19/07, Capuchin wrote: > > > Oh, and since I need to put more moral condemnation into my fegposts, I'll > just add that y'all shouldn't be driving personal autos all the time. I'm not. Right now, for example, I'm sitting in a chair typing away at my laptop. - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 17:40:21 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: Can somebody please change the subject? On 4/19/07, Jeff Dwarf wrote: > > m swedene wrote: > > Where was Bill? > > He went to get a sideways haircut, a striped shirt, plastic shoes, > some funny sunglasses, an Air Force parka, a Vespa scooter, a British > flag; then he went to go Mod Ska dancing. He did not go get a mohawk > and some gnarly thrash boots, nor to go ride his skateboard. He may > have gone to see the Circle Jerks. Damn you - beat me to it. That'll teach me to go on philosophizing about government when there are Camper Van Beethoven jokes to be made... - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 15:43:26 -0700 From: Tom Clark Subject: Re: Can somebody please change the subject? On Apr 19, 2007, at 1:56 PM, kevin wrote: > I still like Rieflin no matter what you guys think. Hey - I love the guy! It's just a known fact that he's a bit of a grumpy Gus, is all. I'm just sayin' - -tc btw, in my dream it was Morris on drums, but he didn't care to join us for sushi. I had to then summon Bill into the scene so I could make a case to the sushi bar owner that not only was I bringing the guitarist from REM, but also the drummer from Ministry (adds to the coolness factor). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 17:44:20 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: NYC invaded by clowns On 4/19/07, kevin wrote: > > Any of y'all in NYC might benefit by seeing this: > > http://www.notjustforshockvalue.com/images/Press_Release.pdf > > I've worked with Kathy Horesji back in my theater daze and she's a treat > to watch onstage. The only person I know who went to Ringling Brothers > Clown College, I asked her once how they get all those people in those > little clown cars and she said "Everybody lays down flat and hopes that > nobody farts." The real question is: are female clowns as scary as male clowns? Are they gun-toting libertarians? - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 17:46:11 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: On 4/19/07, kevin wrote: > > Seems pretty Pythagorean if you ask me. > > Of course, occasionally when I get too bored at work I'll open up a page > in Excel and start listing prime numbers, so... Kids these days. Why when I was a young whippersnapper, when I got bored, I'd just masturbate. - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 10:50:41 +1200 From: grutness@slingshot.co.nz Subject: six? *Six* digests overnight? And all of them about, euh, you know. Too damn much. It all reminds me of the time I was stuck in this service elevator in Port Moresby with a komodo dragon, and only had a pair of engineer's calipers to defend myself. Luckily, it turned out the komodo was a fan of Harry Nillson, so I managed to get it singing "I guess the Lord must be in New York City", and the high falsetto notes it hit somehow dislodges the door mechanism enough for me to squeeze the calipers through the gap and slowly screw them wide enough for us to get out. Nice guy that komodo dragon - Turns out his name was Magnus. We still exchange cards every Greek Orthodox Easter. James - -- James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.- =-.-=-.-=-.- You talk to me as if from a distance .-=-.-=-.-=-. -=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time .-=- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 15:51:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeff Dwarf Subject: Re: NYC invaded by clowns 2fs wrote: > The real question is: are female clowns as scary as male clowns? I think the correct spelling of the word is "lame." . "Children have always enjoyed my movies. They are just not allowed to watch many of them." -- John Waters . Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 17:57:22 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: rights On 4/19/07, Capuchin wrote: > > On Thu, 19 Apr 2007, Marc Alberts wrote: > > > Second, you claim that people who choose not to join a union are somehow > suffering because of the union's existence. I can only guess at why you > think that's true, so please feel free to interject your real reason if I > missed it. > > If your claim is that workers are willing to work at lower rates and are > being denied jobs because of union rules, you're right. But that doesn't > mean the work isn't getting done or that anybody is unemployed because of > this practice. That low-wage, non-union worker would replace a high-wage, > union worker and the net effect would be lower income with the same level > of employment. > > If your claim is that people are not taking jobs because they refuse to > join a union, well, I would like to see any kind of evidence that this is > a significant enough portion of the population to impact employment > levels. Another common anti-union argument has to do with union shops, or mandatory fees/dues collected from non-union members of the bargaining unit. I agree that it's not fair that a person who doesn't want to join a union should pay any sort of fees to that union. Instead, I propose that such people simply be paid whatever wage, and work under whatever conditions and without whatever benefits, they would have been received had the union not joined together to bargain the higher wages, better conditions, and benefits. TAs at my university formed a union about fifteen years ago, and over time the working conditions and pay for the TAs have improved dramatically. A small fee is collected from the paychecks of TAs who don't join the union. Periodically, some of those folks make a stink (typically, they're from the business school). They'd be making about half of what they make now if not for the union. Again, what looks like "compulsion" from one perspective is merely supporting yourself, along with others in your condition, from another. - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 17:58:41 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: six? On 4/19/07, grutness@slingshot.co.nz wrote: > > *Six* digests overnight? And all of them about, euh, you know. > > Too damn much. It all reminds me of the time I was stuck in this > service elevator in Port Moresby with a komodo dragon, and only had a > pair of engineer's calipers to defend myself. Luckily, it turned out > the komodo was a fan of Harry Nillson, so I managed to get it singing > "I guess the Lord must be in New York City", and the high falsetto > notes it hit somehow dislodges the door mechanism enough for me to > squeeze the calipers through the gap and slowly screw them wide > enough for us to get out. I guess that answer Robyn's musical question: "Do Komodos Sing?" - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 16:15:44 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: kevin Subject: Re: six? You should have hit him with "What's Your Sign?". Things could have got really interesting. - -----Original Message----- >From: grutness@slingshot.co.nz >Sent: Apr 19, 2007 3:50 PM >To: fegmaniax@smoe.org >Subject: six? > >*Six* digests overnight? And all of them about, euh, you know. > >Too damn much. It all reminds me of the time I was stuck in this >service elevator in Port Moresby with a komodo dragon, and only had a >pair of engineer's calipers to defend myself. Luckily, it turned out >the komodo was a fan of Harry Nillson, so I managed to get it singing >"I guess the Lord must be in New York City", and the high falsetto >notes it hit somehow dislodges the door mechanism enough for me to >squeeze the calipers through the gap and slowly screw them wide >enough for us to get out. > >Nice guy that komodo dragon - Turns out his name was Magnus. We still >exchange cards every Greek Orthodox Easter. > >James >-- > James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand > -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.- > =-.-=-.-=-.- You talk to me as if from a distance .-=-.-=-.-=-. > -=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time .-=- > .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 20:25:15 -0400 From: "Lauren Elizabeth" Subject: "we're in luck, we're not there" hi fegs, sometimes it's another world out there. i stopped by my parents house after class last night. my mom had larry king on. it's weird how different it is on the world of cable. cnn was just playing these images of the gunman over and over again and it seemed very strange, rather like being alec (not sure of the name - the "clockwork orange" guy) forced to watch the violent movies but instead paying for the privilege. now i'm not saying this as some snob who looks down on television watchers (you just ask me to rank the daytime courtroom show judges (well, don't bother: i like ms. lynn toler and judge alex but am wondering why dear judge maybelline (sp?) has abandoned us.)) it's likely just from not having cable for a while. i think i'm just surprised at how different the coverage is on network television - maybe i thought they would have more nightline specials or news conference interruptions (as a somewhat related aside, i'm really glad that pbs has started carrying the bbc news since i find it very watchable. our pbs radio has been carrying it for quite a while, but i tend not to listen to the radio late at night.) also, i'm glad to see that cnn.com finally stopped rotating those stupid pictures of the gunman holding his gun, and has posted pictures and information about the victims. they have paid enough attention to the gunman already, i believe. this is nothing new, i know, but it still seems weird. maybe i should look on the bright side that at least it still seems weird. some day i think it won't. xo - -- - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "People with opinions just go around bothering one another." - The Buddha ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V16 #168 ********************************