From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V16 #76 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Friday, March 2 2007 Volume 16 : Number 076 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Why can't Johnny like prog? [Rex ] Re: Why can't Johnny like prog? [The Great Quail ] History Repeats the Old Conceits. (Was: costello show) [Steve Talkowski ] Re: Why can't Johnny like prog? [Rex ] Re: Why can't Johnny like prog? [2fs ] Re: Why can't Johnny like prog? ["Lauren Elizabeth" ] Re: Why can't Johnny like prog? ["Lauren Elizabeth" ] Re: Why can't Johnny like prog? ["Jason Brown" ] Re: Why can't Johnny like prog? [Rex ] Re: Why can't Johnny like prog? [2fs ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 09:08:51 -0800 From: Rex Subject: Re: Why can't Johnny like prog? On 3/1/07, 2fs wrote: > > What's interesting is that when you take some stereotypical prog > signifiers > - that supernatural/sci-fi stuff, sort of a quasi-medievalist worldview, > instrumental virtuosity - and ask, what female musicians fit that bill, > you > come up with folks like Joanna Newsom, Kate Bush, maybe Mary Timony - none > of whom (except maybe Kate Bush) is regarded much as being prog. (1) People do mention prog when discussing Newsom, so your google search might pull up something... but it rarely works the other way around. Or maybe it does. The prog inroads into indie-rock are too recent a phenomenon to sort out just yet. (2) Kate Bush does get described as prog-ish sometimes, but generally I think it's a differently-artsy animal... if you count her records, you'd also have to count solo Peter Gabriel (which, despite the obvious prog link, few people even try to do), and perhaps Floyd, with whom your reasons for disinclusion of I totally agree. (c) and TM 2007 Tortured Sentence Structures Us Are (3) Mary Timony, yeah, man, those solo records are as proggy a thing as I have in my collection. There might be an argument in there that Timony actually does female *metal*, though... I mean, if you view the fantastical side of metal as the natural outgrowth of the stuff preteen boys draw in the margins of their notebooks when bored-- axes, blood, maces, dismembered corpses, etc-- and bounce one desk over to see what a girl of the same age is drawing (unicorns, rainbows, teary-eyed nymphs etc.) and perform a similar extrapolation on it, you might come up with something quite Timony-esque. Or Tori Amos, perhaps, although Tori seems a bit less stunted (and I actually thing Timony is messing with those tropes fairly self-consciously and playfully). I like Timony's stuff for its oddball factor but I can't listen to it that much... it's like Malkmus's solo material (and I frankly far prefer Tori Amos to either). > For that > matter, if you look at her odd chords and occasional predilection for > weirdo > rhythms and melody lines, there's even a slight whiff of progginess to > Kristin Hersh's work, particularly early on. Actually, those weird rhythms and melodies are still there, we're just kind of used to them, I think. Hersh's weird dropped beats and things feel to me, and by her own account of her writing process actually are, quite organic and not that "mathy"... if you go down that road, you'll end up seeing prog tendencies in the Pixies and Breeders and such, which is definitely pushing it. (On the other hand, I did just see 50 Foot Wave described as Hersh's "math-rock band", so who knows). Or PJ Harvey's bizarro time > signatures in some of her early work... I always saw that as a tribute to, or extension of, her early pure-blues influences... unproggy but bizarre rhythmic anomolies all over that stuff. > And my guess is LOTR fandom correlates pretty positively with both prog > fandom and metal fandom (particularly prog fandom). I came to rock and roll having just outgrown youthful SF/fantasy geekery, so I think I've always looked at rock that dabbles in that kind of thing as a step backwards on my own perceived scale of emotional development. Strangely, I eventually reconnected with my inner geek and lost my snobbery against the nerdy fantasy stuff (I never re-became a flat-out fanboy, but I do now enjoy the well-done genre stuff, and I do know who Eowyn is and all), but it never endeared me to fantasy in rock... I think that the reawakenining of my Inner Nerd came too long after I'd been long-steeped in conceptual punk-rock orthodoxy and my musical tastes set withing pretty rigid boundaries. Even the Tolkien stuff in Zeppelin makes me cringe... - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 12:19:28 -0500 From: The Great Quail Subject: Re: Why can't Johnny like prog? Rex writes, > But I also noticed something else, leading me to a theory: I only see one > record here with any contributions from a female musician... very much a > boy's club, prog, sorta like metal. And I don't like metal, either. > Coincidence? I dunno, never thought about it before, but here's a new > theory about my musical tastes: the genres that feel like "boys' clubs" > just don't appeal to me, in part, because that disproportionate lack of a > feminine voice doesn't reflect the adult world as I know it, and so these > genres feel "juvenile" to me. Wow. So I suppose classical music and jazz are borderline *infantile,* eh? Rex....I've tried to ignore you, which has been hard, given your fifty-thousand self-obsessed posts every day; but this one really rubs me the wrong way. I've sit here for a while, prudently hammering the "delete" key every few minutes while I try to figure out why I have an almost cellular revulsion to your above comments. I am not sure that I can put it succinctly, but I think it's the way you seem to be inflated with self-importance and brimming over with such self-oblivious condescension. You have somewhat limited musical tastes, which is fine -- except that you have to rationalize -- actually, come near to self-mythologizing -- your opinions by passing them off as some kind of self-aggrandizing, quasi-feminist, self-righteous, self-described "theory." Even your subject line makes me want to claw my own eyes out. Ugh, ugh, ugh. Rather than actual devote any honest intellectual energy to wondering why certain genres may appeal to certain sexes or genres, you just...dismiss them as boy's clubs, and label them as "juvenile." I know I've been quiet for a while, but damn it, the last few weeks have made me want to scream. Can you leave anything go by without connecting it to you in some way? It's all Rex, all the time, pontificating on anything and everything. >That tracks with both genres' > supernatural/fantasy/sci-fi/epic trappings, too, and the tendency to favor > technique over emotion (allowing you to argue about your favorite musicians' > skills as if they were athletes), and in the case of metal, outright > misogyny. Hmmm. That could explain a thing or two about what's offputting > to me here. 1. Granted, some prog certain has the genre trappings, and I can see how that can be off-putting. Of course, these kind of claims are harder to level at some groups, such as Can. 2. Technique over emotion? Yeah, I can see that as being very off-putting for some. But I think you fail to take into account the intellectual satisfaction one gains from hearing an amazing piece of music played with virtuosity. 3. It's unfair to lay the claim of "outright misogyny" at all metal. Which you yourself admit, but you are too lazy to figure it out. > I know I'll get in trouble for linking prog and metal so simply, Then don't. Think harder. - --Quail PS: I know some people will be pissed off at this post, and I know I am not being "nice." However, I don't want to start a flame war, nor do I want to drag any of your online friends and supporters into another brouhaha. But I do feel a few months of silence has entitled me to stand on my soapbox for a second, shake my fists and scream "KHAN!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 12:25:14 -0500 From: Steve Talkowski Subject: History Repeats the Old Conceits. (Was: costello show) Just catching up on a hundred or so feg-posts after a crazy week at work... > Mike Hooker said: >> at the end of each song , he would extend his arm >> straight out and down , and i swear , a gallon or so >> of sweat would pour out the end of the sleeve like >> a fire hose. Heh, wonderful description! I've witnessed that exact motion quite a few times. > Marc Holden said: >> I waited around before a sound check the meet Elvis & the >> Attractions back in 1994, in Mesa, Arizona, at an outdoor >> amphitheatre. Marc, that was my very first EC show!! The Brutal Youth tour. Also a very ground-breaking year for myself, as I made the big move to NYC on Sept. 12th. I recall being extremely bummed that I missed the free EC show at Centerstage in Central Park that Summer. But i've since made up for it, losing track as to how many Costello shows I've seen over the past 13 years. I typically would try to see him both nights when he comes to The Beacon every Fall. I really wish I could've seen him at the peak with the Attractions the first time 'round - especially the Spinning Songbook tour. Memorable shows for me were: Painted From Memory tour, with Burt Bacharach and an all female orchestra at Radio City. Standing in the mud for a good spot, enduring Hootie and the Blowfish during the Guinness Fleadh before Elvis takes the stage in '99. A 3-hour taping of Sessions @ West 54th (was in a group of 6 that were the last people chosen to enter the free taping) Seeing EC and Allen Toussaint at the Tribeca Film Festival's afternoon "mini-concert", debuting new tracks from The River in Reverse, then seeing them together again last Fall for an incredible show. For me, I was always vaguely aware of EC early on (I was the older brother so had to turn myself on to new music) but it wasn't until '89 when I was listening to an NPR interview about Spike that something in my brain just "clicked" and it's been Costello (somewhat fanatically early on) ever since. BC/AC = Before Costello/After Costello ;) Incidentally, RH is second in my "most concerts seen from one artist" hierarchy. In fact, I believe I had just signed on to Fegmaniax late in '96 literally 2 days AFTER the Storefront Hitchcock filming (talk about bad timing - i didn't even know it was happening right in my backyard) so, my first Hitchcock show was seeing him at the Beacon with Billy Bragg. Oddly enough, I've yet to venture out to Jersey to catch one of his Maxwell's shows. I think of my all-time fave shows has to be seeing the reunited Soft Boys at Bowery Ballroom. I was totally unfamiliar with Robyn's pre-Egyptian period, so the entire show was this incredible eye-opener and I freaked out and listed to Underwater Moonlight straight for at least 2 months. Nextdoorland is also in current rotation. >> By the end of the summer, 100 F feels like a spring day, but >> before you adjust, it is a bit hot. Marc Having lived in AZ (Tempe) for 21 years, I can totally relate (and sympathize). It is indeed, a dry heave. Oh yeah, my top 2 favourite EC songs of all time remain: 1. Beyond Belief (One of the most transcendent songs to grace my ears) 2. Man Out Of Time (That intro/outro scream propels the listener to another world and back. I get goosebumps just thinking about it) - -Steve ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 09:46:10 -0800 From: Rex Subject: Re: Why can't Johnny like prog? On 3/2/07, The Great Quail wrote: > > Rex writes, > > Wow. So I suppose classical music and jazz are borderline *infantile,* eh? No, because they aren't self-ghettoizing in their subject matter. Rex....I've tried to ignore you, which has been hard, given your > fifty-thousand self-obsessed posts every day; but this one really rubs me > the wrong way. I'd say try harder. This should've been offlist. But offlist you actually behave in a civilized manner-- this bleating has no appeal for you unless it's public. That, to me, is intellectual dishonesty, some kind of ego-driven... thing... I dunno. Your deal, not mine. You have somewhat limited musical > tastes, which is fine -- except that you have to rationalize -- actually, > come near to self-mythologizing -- your opinions by passing them off as > some > kind of self-aggrandizing, quasi-feminist, self-righteous, self-described > "theory." Even your subject line makes me want to claw my own eyes out. You lost me there. I'm basically thinking out loud; not making any grand pronouncements about anything... working on why I like certain things and not others. In no way am I passing judgment on anything (except inasmuchas whether or not I like it). I used the word "theory" to mean, hey, maybe this is something I never noticed about how my tastes work, not like a Grand Overarching Scheme of Great Import-- you're bringing your own distaste for me to bear there. Ugh, ugh, ugh. Rather than actual devote any honest intellectual energy to > wondering why certain genres may appeal to certain sexes or genres, you > just...dismiss them as boy's clubs, and label them as "juvenile." If you actually read what I'd written without prejucide, you'd see that I'm just talking about how this stuff strikes me personally, and by extension an invitation to compare other peoples' perceptions of the same material (which is kinda what seemed to be happening). > > 1. Granted, some prog certain has the genre trappings, and I can see how > that can be off-putting. Of course, these kind of claims are harder to > level > at some groups, such as Can. I love Can, actually. In fact, one of the reasons I expected that prog-list to contain some records that I like was that a lot of people lump Krautrock and prog together, and I like a LOT of Krautrock. (Although I really don't like that as a genre name, but what can you do?) 2. Technique over emotion? Yeah, I can see that as being very off-putting > for some. But I think you fail to take into account the intellectual > satisfaction one gains from hearing an amazing piece of music played with > virtuosity. The latter doesn't do much for me without something to back it up, leading also to my disinterest in American Idol. Thus I am one of the some for whom it is off-putting, and since I'm only talking about my reactions to prog, that shouldn't be a problem 3. It's unfair to lay the claim of "outright misogyny" at all metal. Which > you yourself admit, but you are too lazy to figure it out. What? If you admit that I admit it, what in the hell haven't I figured out? That just doesn't make sense. Misogyny exists in spades in metal; of course it's not universal, but do you really argue otherwise? > > PS: I know some people will be pissed off at this post, and I know I am > not > being "nice." However, I don't want to start a flame war, nor do I want to > drag any of your online friends and supporters into another brouhaha. But > I > do feel a few months of silence has entitled me to stand on my soapbox for > a > second, shake my fists and scream "KHAN!" I'm sorry, but did you just cast yourself as Captain Kirk, or perhaps by extension a Melville character, whilst claiming that *I* take myself too seriously? Maybe we can make a deal-- if I accept the possibility that you're joking there, can you give me the benefit of the same doubt? - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 12:16:22 -0600 From: 2fs Subject: Re: Why can't Johnny like prog? On 3/2/07, The Great Quail wrote: > > Rex writes, > > > But I also noticed something else, leading me to a theory: I only see > one > > record here with any contributions from a female musician... very much a > > boy's club, prog, sorta like metal. And I don't like metal, either. > > Coincidence? I dunno, never thought about it before, but here's a new > > theory about my musical tastes: the genres that feel like "boys' clubs" > > just don't appeal to me, in part, because that disproportionate lack of > a > > feminine voice doesn't reflect the adult world as I know it, and so > these > > genres feel "juvenile" to me. > > Wow. So I suppose classical music and jazz are borderline *infantile,* eh? I think there's a whole 'nother socioeconomic/historical thing going on with those genres. That said, *contemporary* classical and jazz - and contemporary classical and jazz ensembles - tend to have a relatively stronger female component. Less jazz than classical, maybe. > 2. Technique over emotion? Yeah, I can see that as being very off-putting > for some. But I think you fail to take into account the intellectual > satisfaction one gains from hearing an amazing piece of music played with > virtuosity. I'd phrase the problem with some prog (and some jazz-fusion, and some metal) as "technique over musicality." Virtuosity *can* serve the music by increasing intensity, expressing fieriness, etc. But it can also just be empty widdling that might be fun at home but is uncomfortable to watch in public. And - as with any other musical gesture - what can be thrilling on occasion loses its impact when it's omnipresent (see also: screaming). 3. It's unfair to lay the claim of "outright misogyny" at all metal. I don't recall specifically what was said about metal and misogyny...but certainly, misogyny gains more traction in metal than in most other genres (hip-hop maybe excepted - and, for that matter, certain strains of C&W). That seems pretty clear. And what's inarguable is the underrepresentation in metal of female musicians, and female fans. There would seem to be a connection there. Not "all metal," of course - but enough of it to be a characteristic of the genre generally (if that adverb isn't redundant...). - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 13:41:30 -0500 From: "Lauren Elizabeth" Subject: Re: Why can't Johnny like prog? Hi Fegs, I've written a few responses to this subject, but ended up trashing them. I doubt I can say what's in my head without taking more time than I can justify. So I'll just post the short version and cross my fingers that there is some correspondence between what I think and what I post. I agree that prog-rock is a boys' club. I for one love most boys' clubs and many times try to weasel my way in but not in this particular case. Even in this day of metrosexuals and wispy emo boys, there still are differences between the sexes. Thank God. This isn't to pigeonhole people - there are always exceptions and I don't give a shit what any particular person is interested in - it's just an observation. I get angry that women are allowed to have their "girl things" and sometimes guys are not (i.e. imagine a show like "Sex and the City" being but with four guys.) At least without judgement. I don't know that it was the intent of this thread to imply that there is something wrong with it - it's hard for me to tell just because it hits a personal note. I've always been attracted to "guy things" and actually have found guys in those guy worlds very accepting of this. I think I sometimes feel anger directed at this world and because I'm so fond of it, I get defensive. e.g. I just started graduate school in January and well, still essentially no women in the field (undergraduate was mathematics, graduate is computer science.) I met a women in the program and jokingly said "where did the women go?" since it seems to have only gotten worse and she said "oh, the NSF is doing a study about the hostility towards women in the field." WTF? That is the opposite of my experience and I said so. I didn't disagree with her just that I always felt it was a great field because in my experience computer and math geeks tend to pay gender no mind. And then she said that basically she was a woman who spoke her mind and perhaps that was the problem (as though the only reason I was accepted in computer science was because I was a timid girl.) The fucking nerve of her. I tell you, no *guy* in the field ever said something that condescending to me. BTW, just saw an article in the NYT Fashion Magazine about David Lynch (don't know why it was in the fashion magazine except his incredibly fashionable hair) and was surprised to find the Twin Peaks' conventions described as "by all reports, is disproportionately male." But unsurprised as that seems to be the way of my interests. "...or something like that." xo - -- - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "People with opinions just go around bothering one another." - The Buddha ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 10:45:00 -0800 From: Rex Subject: Re: Why can't Johnny like prog? On 3/2/07, 2fs wrote: > > > I don't recall specifically what was said about metal and misogyny...but > certainly, misogyny gains more traction in metal than in most other genres > (hip-hop maybe excepted - and, for that matter, certain strains of C&W). The difference is that there's no venue for hearing C&W where you'd hear one of those good ol' boy tunes without hearing a female perspective a few tunes later. The genre taken as a whole is a fairly well-rounded picture of the culture that produces it. I think the same was once true of hip-hop, although that's lapsed a bit... maybe less so if you broaden the definition of hip-hop, as a lot of people seem to do these days, to include club music with diva vocalists and suchlike. I think, anyway; at least you seem to hear a lot of female voices and perspectives in that stuff, while it seems to have been largely purged from hardcore rap. > > Not "all metal," of course - but enough of it to be a characteristic of > the > genre generally (if that adverb isn't redundant...). Yeah, metal's been a lot of things over the years, some of which seem to have little in common with each other, but it seems to break down along lines of hedonism (which is usually misogynist) and anger/fantasy, which may not be so much, except inasmuch as those sort of sword & sorcery milieus it reflects are (and per the discussion of Tolkien, they strike me as more disinclusive of than hostile towards women). Thing is, I don't really like genre restrictions at all, which may be a larger stumbling block for me than anything about any given genre itself. What I'm listening to right now is really awesome, though... a series of compilations issued in the early '90's called "The Indie Scene" collecting indie singles by the year, one comp a year for 1977 through 1986. Hard to believe this was a legally released series-- it's a monumental achievement of cross-licensing, to say the least. You can find them all by scrolling around here... and soon you, too, can be listening to The Higsons, among others. http://not-rock-on.blogspot.com/ - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 13:46:13 -0500 From: "Lauren Elizabeth" Subject: Re: Why can't Johnny like prog? I say: > BTW, just saw an article in the NYT Fashion Magazine about David Lynch Apologies, it is actually the NYT Style Magazine although I am unsure what the actual difference is. xo - -- - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "People with opinions just go around bothering one another." - The Buddha ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 11:03:21 -0800 From: "David Stovall" Subject: RE: progness http://music.ign.com/articles/767/767201p1.html Not that I'm surprised, but,... No Univers Zero? No Fred Frith/Henry Cow-related projects? No Etron Fou Leloublan? No Hamster Theatre? No Sleepytime Gorilla Museum? No Alamaailman Vasarat? No Mike Keneally (whose Nonkertompf is as far out as most stuff on this list, and who is genuinely progressive, in that he incorporates and modifies all previous genres and influences and continues to make something new from them)? On women in prog - not sure if this is all from the list, but Magma also contained Stella Vander, drummer Christian's wife, at least part of the time, & the afore-acknowledged Annie Haslam in Renaissance. Henry Cow would have added Dagmar Krause AND the amazing Lindsay Cooper; Gong coulda brought in Gilli Smyth; Sleepytime Gorilla Museum has Carla Kihlstedt as a citizen. Is it just me, or have the Moody Blues (themselves and their music) aged more horribly than most of their contemporaries? Somebody run with this: King Crimson:Yes as George Carlin's Football:Baseball. Yes has Jon Anderson, who wears capes and spins around, his singing sounds more like Winnie the Pooh every year. King Crimson has Robert Fripp, who sits motionless in the dark on a stool at the edge of the stage, and what he plays on guitar, you can build buildings with. If you make noise, he will scowl at you. da9ve Prog-boy and prog-boy's Mellotron sold separately ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 11:24:52 -0800 From: "Jason Brown" Subject: Re: Why can't Johnny like prog? On 3/2/07, Lauren Elizabeth wrote: > I get angry that women are allowed to have their "girl > things" and sometimes guys are not (i.e. imagine a show like "Sex and > the City" being but with four guys.) That show exists! Its called Entourage! > I just started graduate school in January and well, still essentially no women in > the field (undergraduate was mathematics, graduate is computer science.) My grad school experience was the opposite situation. When I got my masters in Library Science and the program was 80 percent female and of the men it was on 25% hetrosexual. Regarding metal, I think its unfair to blanketly paint metal as mysogynist. Metal is at its haerat more about a the music than the lyrics and the best metal bands today like Mastodon are certainly not mysogynist. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 11:55:36 -0800 From: Rex Subject: Re: Why can't Johnny like prog? On 3/2/07, Jason Brown wrote: > > > Regarding metal, I think its unfair to blanketly paint metal as > mysogynist. Metal is at its haerat more about a the music than the > lyrics and the best metal bands today like Mastodon are certainly not > mysogynist. I should've phrased that more carefully... what I was meaning to say was that there's probably more misogyny-per-song in metal at large than there is in your average non-metal genre, something Jeffrey said better than I had/am doing now. It could just be the metal that I grew up with, which was '80's hair band stuff, and that was none too progressive. The anger-and-violence flavors of metal are lyrically opaque to me except when I see quotes in reviews, and their subject matter seems to me not so much anti-female as basically dismissive of female perspectives, but hey, I don't really know that much about it. But I have seen a Whitesnake video or two in my time! Re: Lauren's comments, no, I didn't mean to imply that the existence of boys'-clubby things was a bad thing, and it might even be essential. It's just that boys'-clubby things rarely interest me personally, so I shouldn't be surprised that musical genres answering to that description don't do it for me either, and yet for some reason I'd never thought of that before. Of course, once again, even rock fandom in general is pretty male-dominated, so there's that. - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 13:56:59 -0600 From: 2fs Subject: Re: Why can't Johnny like prog? On 3/2/07, Lauren Elizabeth wrote: > > > observation. I get angry that women are allowed to have their "girl > things" and sometimes guys are not (i.e. imagine a show like "Sex and > the City" being but with four guys.) At least without judgement. I > don't know that it was the intent of this thread to imply that there > is something wrong with it - it's hard for me to tell just because it > hits a personal note. I've always been attracted to "guy things" and > actually have found guys in those guy worlds very accepting of this. > I think I sometimes feel anger directed at this world and because I'm > so fond of it, I get defensive. e.g. I just started graduate school > in January and well, still essentially no women in the field > (undergraduate was mathematics, graduate is computer science.) I met > a women in the program and jokingly said "where did the women go?" > since it seems to have only gotten worse and she said "oh, the NSF is > doing a study about the hostility towards women in the field." WTF? > That is the opposite of my experience and I said so. I didn't > disagree with her just that I always felt it was a great field because > in my experience computer and math geeks tend to pay gender no mind. > And then she said that basically she was a woman who spoke her mind > and perhaps that was the problem (as though the only reason I was > accepted in computer science was because I was a timid girl.) The > fucking nerve of her. I tell you, no *guy* in the field ever said > something that condescending to me. I think when there are "boys clubs" (or "girls clubs"), they're not all necessarily constituted for the same reasons or with the same assumptions and exclusions. I think what Rex said about metal, particularly, was that it felt like a boys club, not necessarily because it hated, feared, disliked, or was oblivious to women and women's interests, but more that *because* it was a boys club (even if only numerically), that in itself made it seem weird and not reflective of the world. Even though I like several prog acts I can't say I like prog as such - frankly, I've made no effort to explore it beyond what I knew in its '70s and '80s heyday - but I can say I don't like metal, and one reason is that its whole feel (for lack of a better word) seems alternately uncomfortable and (more frequently) just plain *dumb*. I'm not obsessed with evil or death or screaming or blood or pain or gargling; being hit over the head by loud guitars all the time is boring, not exciting; and when the genre tries to get serious it gets laughable in its pretensions and simple-mindedness ("war is bad, m'kay?" - or "war is cool, dude!"). I've had intelligent people (a woman, in fact, most recently - for what that's worth) make me mixes, to see if there was anything interesting there...and for the most part, the answer was no. And the reason I feel justified in saying I don't like the *genre* rather than not liking many artists in the genre is that it seems that the things that *make* music "metal" are the things I don't like. As for the boys club thing: the whole attitude of hardness, of in-your-face-ness, even of the whole mythological blah-blah-blah-ness, seems quintessentially boys-club-ish, and specifically adolescent. But obviously, YMMV... (Incidentally, genres that sort of border on metal, in which I otherwise have at least sort of an interest, end up boring me insofar as they incorporate more clearly metallic signifiers - so, when hardcore starts sounding more like metal, I dislike it - same with prog in its prog-metal incarnations.) - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V16 #76 *******************************