From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V15 #127 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Wednesday, June 7 2006 Volume 15 : Number 127 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: In honor of today... [wojizzle forizzle ] Re: In honor of today... [Dolph Chaney ] Re: reap [Tom Clark ] Re: In honor of today... [Christopher Gross ] We Were Listening to the Devil's Radio [xx ] Re: In honor of today... (this one's for Eddie) ["Spotted Eagle Ray" ] Re: In honor of today... (this one's for Eddie) ["Spotted Eagle Ray" ] Re: In honor of today... ["Spotted Eagle Ray" ] Re: In honor of today... [Eb ] Re: In honor of today... ["Spotted Eagle Ray" ] RE: In honor of today... ["Patrick Oltraver" ] Re: In honor of today... (this one's for Eddie) ["Spotted Eagle Ray" ] Re: In honor of today... [Eb ] reap ["Jason Brown" ] Re: In honor of today... (this one's for Eddie) [2fs ] Re: reap [Benjamin Lukoff ] NEW on DIME: Robyn Hitchcock and Minus 3 - Scala 25 Jan 2006 FM [wojbearp] Perhaps a rhetorical question [Eb ] Re: My name is "Eb", and I've shit the bed again ["Stacked Crooked" ] Re: offer to you ["Stewart C. Russell" ] Re: My name is "Eb", and I've shit the bed again [FSThomas Subject: Re: In honor of today... anyone in the mood for some satanic metal, head over to wfmu. brian turner's show today is all 6/6/06 all the time. he started at 3pm edt (30 minutes ago) and will be on until 6pm. live playlist updates at http://wfmu.org/playlists/shows/19288 (and later, archived streams) a smorgasborg of streams at http://wfmu.org/audiostream.shtml \m/ \m/ woj ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 15:03:02 -0500 From: Dolph Chaney Subject: Re: In honor of today... The White Stripes, GET BEHIND ME SATAN Guided By Voices, DEVIL BETWEEN MY TOES American Music Club, "The Devil Needs You" Michelle Malone, "Devil Moon" The Mekons, "Lucky Devil" Momus, "The Hairstyle Of The Devil" Peter Murphy, "The Line Between the Devil's Teeth (And That Which Cannot Be Repeat)" Stryper, "To Hell With The Devil" Tortoise & Bonnie "Prince" Billy, "Some Say (I Got Devil)" Mark Sandman, "Devil's Boots" Gillian Welch, "The Devil Had A Hold Of Me" Pere Ubu, "Hell" Anthrax, "Raise Hell" The Brian Jonestown Massacre, "Going To Hell" Cage, "Hell's Winter" East River Pipe, "Hell Is An Open Door" Lonely Trailer, "Gone To Hell" Mink Lungs, "Demon Powers Of Hell" The Minutemen, "Hell (Second Take)" Sonic Youth, "Shaking Hell" AC/DC, "Hell Ain't A Bad Place To Be" Tiny Tim, "Highway To Hell" Tom Waits, "Everything Goes To Hell" Ween, "Mushroom Festival In Hell" The Velvet Underground, "The Black Angel's Death Song" - -- and for luridly Satanic hell of form and execution rather than content -- Paul Oakenfold, "Faster Kill Pussycat (feat. Brittany Murphy)" - -- Dolph ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 13:10:12 -0700 From: Tom Clark Subject: Re: reap On Jun 6, 2006, at 11:43 AM, Michael Wells wrote: > Eric Gregg, umpire with a strike zone as large as life: And a waistband! - -tc, high and inside ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 16:16:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Gross Subject: Re: In honor of today... On Tue, 6 Jun 2006, Spotted Eagle Ray wrote: > Can't mention Orbital's "Satan" without a nod to the Butthole Surfers' > "Sweat Loaf" from which the titular sample is drawn Back in the mid-90s, I found a cheap used copy of the Butthole Surfers' Locust Abortion Technician, featuring "Sweat Loaf." Then, six months or a year later, I bought Orbital's first CD, featuring "Satan." I started to play it when I got home, then stopped it a few tracks from the end to go get dinner or something. When I got home, I started the CD again where I left off, only to hear that sample and get deeply confused. "Did I put Locust Abortion Technician in the CD player without remembering it? God, I'm really losing it." And that's my Butthole Surfers anecdote for the day. - --Chris ps: What about Sabbath's "N.I.B."? ______________________________________________________________________ Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog. chrisg@gwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 13:38:47 -0700 (PDT) From: xx Subject: We Were Listening to the Devil's Radio I hate to say this, but like Eb, I've pretty much given up on KROQ too. However, I listen to 88.9 KXLU more than Indie 103.1. For you Fegs outside of its tiny broadcast range, check out www.kxlu.com, I do believe they are still webcasting. Last time I checked, they had a 'radio station' on iTunes. KXLU - Where I did hear a guy do a *great* cover of Iron Maiden's "Number of the Beast" on BANJO - it ruled. If I could find a copy of that, I would buy it. Also heard a mash up of Miles Davis "Bitches Brew" with Charles Manson speaking over it. I believe it was called "Charlies Brew".... - -g Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 13:59:14 -0700 From: "Spotted Eagle Ray" Subject: Re: In honor of today... (this one's for Eddie) On 6/6/06, Christopher Gross wrote: > > On Tue, 6 Jun 2006, Spotted Eagle Ray wrote: > > When I got home, I started the CD again where I > left off, only to hear that sample and get deeply confused. "Did I put > Locust Abortion Technician in the CD player without remembering it? God, > I'm really losing it." And that's my Butthole Surfers anecdote for the > day. Do I remember correctly that Orbital later remade the track in collaboration with... was it Kurt Hammett? Was that an inadvertant Metallica/Buttholes collaboration? Or does Metallica itself count as an inadvertant butthole collaboration? Something about the words "Orbital" and "Butthole" in close proximity also evokes the old joke about how the Starship Enterprise is like toilet paper. - -SER ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:19:10 -0700 From: "Patrick Oltraver" Subject: RE: In honor of today... (this one's for Eddie) Captain, I detect a gaseous anomaly off the starboard bow. SER Wrote: Something about the words "Orbital" and "Butthole" in close proximity also evokes the old joke about how the Starship Enterprise is like toilet paper. - -SER ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:18:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeff Dwarf Subject: Re: In honor of today... (this one's for Eddie) Spotted Eagle Ray wrote: > Do I remember correctly that Orbital later remade > ["Satam" in collaboration with... was it Kurt > Hammett? Was that an inadvertant Metallica/ > Buttholes collaboration? Or does Metallica itself > count as an inadvertant butthole > collaboration? For the movie Spawn. And to save someone the trouble later, it's KIRK Hammett! "A severed foot is the ultimate stocking stuffer." -- Mitch Hedberg "For millions of years, mankind lived just like the animals. Then something happened which unleashed the power of our imagination. We learned to talk. And we learned to listen. Speech has allowed the communication of ideas, enabling human beings to work together. To build the impossible. Mankind's greatest achievements have come about by talking. And it's greatest failures by NOT talking. It doesn't have to be like this! Our greatest hopes could become reality in the future. With the technology at our disposal, the possibilities are unbounded. All we need to do is make sure we keep talking. -- Stephen W. Hawking . Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:41:24 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: In honor of today... Patrick Oltraver wrote: > Mogwai - Mogwai Fear Satan > Sigur Ros - Heysatan > Tanya Donelly - Every Devil Ack. Seeing a few tracks from albums still on my shopping list. > Love & Rockets - Angels And Devils And I don't have this because I have Express on a cassette which doesn't include the bonus tracks. I don't have ANY of the central Love & Rockets albums on CD, alas. Bummer. woj: > that's from one helluva album. and, for the record, i bought it > before i realized there was an r.e.m. connection. At the time, I was a bit cynical about how Hetch Hetchy's sound changed so much between the EP and the album, and how clearly it was due to Hugo Largo's influence. But it's still a pretty good album, particularly considering how totally, totally forgotten this band is. I seem to have a lot of mail-server problems today. Posts arriving belatedly, having trouble sending things.... I saw answers to my post before I received the original post itself. Rex: > Flaming Lips, Lucifer Rising Oh...I didn't think to look for Lucifer songs. I could add the Amos and Erickson songs you named, plus Unrest's "Lucifer Rising" and Pink Floyd/Shockabilly's "Lucifer Sam." But the Lips' "Lucifer Rising" is another case of me missing the CD bonus tracks. I do have the album on CD, but not the later pressing with the two extra tunes. Eb ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:50:30 -0700 From: "Spotted Eagle Ray" Subject: Re: In honor of today... (this one's for Eddie) On 6/6/06, Jeff Dwarf wrote: > > > And to save someone the trouble later, it's KIRK Hammett! And here I was sweating whether it ended in two t's or one. Your honor, I plead ignorance of metal. - -Rx ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:55:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeff Dwarf Subject: Re: In honor of today... (this one's for Eddie) Spotted Eagle Ray wrote: > On 6/6/06, Jeff Dwarf wrote: > > And to save someone the trouble later, it's KIRK > > Hammett! > > And here I was sweating whether it ended in two t's > or one. > > Your honor, I plead ignorance of metal. Sorry but if _I_ knew it was Kirk, you may not have much of a case.... "A severed foot is the ultimate stocking stuffer." -- Mitch Hedberg "For millions of years, mankind lived just like the animals. Then something happened which unleashed the power of our imagination. We learned to talk. And we learned to listen. Speech has allowed the communication of ideas, enabling human beings to work together. To build the impossible. Mankind's greatest achievements have come about by talking. And it's greatest failures by NOT talking. It doesn't have to be like this! Our greatest hopes could become reality in the future. With the technology at our disposal, the possibilities are unbounded. All we need to do is make sure we keep talking. -- Stephen W. Hawking . Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:14:03 -0700 From: Tom Clark Subject: Re: In honor of today... (this one's for Eddie) On Jun 6, 2006, at 2:19 PM, Patrick Oltraver wrote: > Captain, I detect a gaseous anomaly off the starboard bow. > > SER Wrote: > > Something about the words "Orbital" and "Butthole" in close > proximity also > evokes the old joke about how the Starship Enterprise is like > toilet paper. > My daughter recently got a book about the solar system. I opened it to a random page and the first thing I saw was "Uranus is surrounded by blue gasses". Oh how we laughed... - -tc ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 18:30:17 -0400 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: Re: In honor of today... Patrick Oltraver wrote: > > Sigur Rss - Heysatan probably just a Hopelandic coincidence rather than greeting Auld Nick. Stewart ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:34:57 -0700 From: "Spotted Eagle Ray" Subject: Re: In honor of today... On 6/6/06, Eb wrote: > > > woj: > > that's from one helluva album. and, for the record, i bought it > > before i realized there was an r.e.m. connection. > > At the time, I was a bit cynical about how Hetch Hetchy's sound > changed so much between the EP and the album, and how clearly it was > due to Hugo Largo's influence. But it's still a pretty good album, > particularly considering how totally, totally forgotten this band is. Yeah, agreed on all counts. It's too weird that the only two bands really to ever sound like, erm... that... came out of the same place at around the same time. And had weird sounding names starting with "H". Even the design aesthetic was similar. I think I found the HH record sometime in the mid '90's used and cheap... I mean, I bet it's kinda rare but too obscure to get flagged for the higher used prices it could've fetched in the pre-digital age. Oh...I didn't think to look for Lucifer songs. I was even more proud of the "Beelzebub" catch. Any others I spaced on? Mephistopheles? Shaitan? Old Scratch? Does Pluto count? - -Rx ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:44:00 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: In honor of today... > At the time, I was a bit cynical about how Hetch Hetchy's sound > changed so much between the EP and the album, and how clearly it was > due to Hugo Largo's influence. But it's still a pretty good album, > particularly considering how totally, totally forgotten this band is. > > Yeah, agreed on all counts. It's too weird that the only two bands > really to ever sound like, erm... that... came out of the same > place at around the same time. And had weird sounding names > starting with "H". Even the design aesthetic was similar. I think > I found the HH record sometime in the mid '90's used and cheap... I > mean, I bet it's kinda rare but too obscure to get flagged for the > higher used prices it could've fetched in the pre-digital age. I always thought Hugo Largo just HAD to cover Jefferson Airplane's "Comin' Back to Me." Never happened, though they covered quite a few other intriguing tunes. I would luvvvvvve to have a copy of their live version of Prince's "Sometimes It Snows in April." Amazon has third-party copies of Swollen for as little as $7.47. Though two other optimists are hoping to get $32. > Oh...I didn't think to look for Lucifer songs. > > I was even more proud of the "Beelzebub" catch. Any others I > spaced on? Mephistopheles? Shaitan? Old Scratch? Does Pluto count? Oh, I blew that too. I did look for Beelzebub songs at the start, but I think I simply mistyped the word. So...add Steroid Maximus' "The Bowel of Beelzebub: A Symphony in Four Movements." And after all, how many artists sound more Satanic than Jim Thirlwell? Though nothing is more Satanic than this: http://www.ljlindhurst.com/bunny1.html Eb ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 16:00:20 -0700 From: "Spotted Eagle Ray" Subject: Re: In honor of today... On 6/6/06, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > > Patrick Oltraver wrote: > > > > Sigur Rss - Heysatan > > probably just a Hopelandic coincidence rather than greeting Auld Nick. Hmm... has anyone ever played their Sigur Ros records backwards? (Could you really tell the difference?) I once heard a story about someone listening to and love the Cocteau Twins' "Victorialand" at the wrong RPM for years. Perhaps apocryphal, but not unimaginable. - -SER ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 16:10:06 -0700 From: "Patrick Oltraver" Subject: RE: In honor of today... I had a Harold Budd album that listened to for years at the wrong RPM. It happens. :) _____ From: Spotted Eagle Ray [mailto:spottedeagleray@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 4:00 PM To: Stewart C. Russell Cc: Patrick Oltraver; fgz Subject: Re: In honor of today... On 6/6/06, Stewart C. Russell wrote: Patrick Oltraver wrote: > > Sigur Rss - Heysatan probably just a Hopelandic coincidence rather than greeting Auld Nick. Hmm... has anyone ever played their Sigur Ros records backwards? (Could you really tell the difference?) I once heard a story about someone listening to and love the Cocteau Twins' "Victorialand" at the wrong RPM for years. Perhaps apocryphal, but not unimaginable. - -SER ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 16:11:15 -0700 From: "Spotted Eagle Ray" Subject: Re: In honor of today... (this one's for Eddie) On 6/6/06, Tom Clark wrote: > > On Jun 6, 2006, at 2:19 PM, Patrick Oltraver wrote: > My daughter recently got a book about the solar system. I opened it > to a random page and the first thing I saw was "Uranus is surrounded > by blue gasses". Oh how we laughed... And then they tried to change the way it was pronounced... to... no no wait, get this-- URINE - US! Ahhh. Good, good stuff. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 19:44:18 -0400 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: Re: In honor of today... Spotted Eagle Ray wrote: > > Hmm... has anyone ever played their Sigur Ros records backwards? (Could > you really tell the difference?) Hey, no fair -- it sounds quite different! The vocals, when played backwards, sound like Jonsi's taking a dump. Stewart np: Rugis Sor - Natasyeh ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 16:45:10 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: In honor of today... > I had a Harold Budd album that listened to for years at the wrong > RPM. It > happens. :) Somewhere I have a Sub Pop single by Wire's Bruce Gilbert...I recall it being equally good (bad?) at 45 or 33. Don't ask me which speed is correct, because I don't even remember. Eb ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:40:05 -0700 From: "Jason Brown" Subject: reap Seattle auto insurance legend Vern Fonk http://www.thestranger.com/blog/2006/06/rip_vern_fonk_1.php ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 19:43:50 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: In honor of today... (this one's for Eddie) On 6/6/06, Spotted Eagle Ray wrote: > > On 6/6/06, Tom Clark wrote: > > > > On Jun 6, 2006, at 2:19 PM, Patrick Oltraver wrote: > > My daughter recently got a book about the solar system. I opened it > > to a random page and the first thing I saw was "Uranus is surrounded > > by blue gasses". Oh how we laughed... > > > And then they tried to change the way it was pronounced... to... no no > wait, > get this-- URINE - US! > > Ahhh. Good, good stuff. Of course, it's actually pronounced OOO-RAAAAAAHHH-NOOOSE! But that isn't funny. - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 19:45:57 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: reap On 6/6/06, Jason Brown wrote: > > Seattle auto insurance legend Vern Fonk > http://www.thestranger.com/blog/2006/06/rip_vern_fonk_1.php Doubtless notable for containing one of the few instances in the English language of the phrase "beloved insurance mogul." - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 17:56:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Benjamin Lukoff Subject: Re: reap March 22, and we're just now hearing about this tragedy? If I had known, I would have honked. On Tue, 6 Jun 2006, Jason Brown wrote: > Seattle auto insurance legend Vern Fonk > http://www.thestranger.com/blog/2006/06/rip_vern_fonk_1.php ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 21:03:16 -0400 From: wojbearpig Subject: NEW on DIME: Robyn Hitchcock and Minus 3 - Scala 25 Jan 2006 FM http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=98797&hit=1 - -------- Original Message -------- From: DIME (www.dimeadozen.org) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 01:15:35 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [bot-dimeadozen-org] NEW on DIME: Robyn Hitchcock and Minus 3 - Scala 25 Jan 2006 FM A new torrent has been uploaded to DIME. Torrent: 98797 Title: Robyn Hitchcock and Minus 3 - Scala 25 Jan 2006 FM Size: 193.98 MB Category: Club Rock Uploaded by: scottellis Description - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robyn Hitchcock and The Minus Three Scala London 25 Jan 2006 BBC FM Broadcast 1 If You Were A Priest 2 Intro 3 Birdshead 4 Dennis Healey Intro 5 Somewhere Apart 6 Interview with Peter Buck and Robyn 7 Driving Aloud (Radio Storm) 8 Television 9 The Queen of Eyes Thanks to mgeldere the full gig was available at http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=80433 and excellent it is too. This is the segment played on the Kershaw show which includes the interview. Enjoy. FM > CASS > CDWAVE > DBPOWERAMP > FLAC8 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 19:00:02 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Perhaps a rhetorical question Is it just me, or is every new band either from Sweden or Brooklyn? Eb ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 20:04:44 -0700 From: "Stacked Crooked" Subject: Re: My name is "Eb", and I've shit the bed again well, i think they're *all* outstanding. and while i wouldn't describe it as "drone-y slowness", certainly the new record is the least riff-driven of the lot. you might start with *Lateralus* (but be warned that while it's my fave TOOL rekkid, it itself is fairly meh if not played VERY loudly); or, better yet, by attending a "live show". <<>> <> but, see, there are laws governing international relations -- and these laws supersede the constitution. not only is invading other countries without security council permission a violation of international law; the nuremberg tribunal considered the initiation of a war of aggression the most egregious violation of international law that a state could possibly commit. so egregious, in fact, that german and japanese leaders were put to death for it. [of course, british, french, and american leaders were not put to death for *their* wars of aggression -- wars which killed scores of millions of indigenous people -- even though a good many were still alive and kicking by 1945. why not? in the eloquent phrasing of winston churchill (we can always count on churchill for eloquence): "I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place."] so you're a "rule of law" absolutist (and condescendingly, too) when it comes to people you, for whatever reason, dislike; and a "law of the jungle" apologist when it comes to people you, for whatever reason, like. in some circles, that's known as "talking out of both sides of your mouth". ain't exactly a compliment. which is not to say that i don't think a case could be made that a non-sanctioned invasion couldn't in theory be justified -- a situation like rwanda's comes to mind. but you've not made that case here (let me know if you'd like me to address your arguments point-by-point -- i'd be happy to do so, though probably wouldn't get to it until the week-end; in the meanwhile, suffice to say that it's riddled with errors of fact and logic), nor was it made by bush and blair. i mean, when 90% of the world is against you, you'd think it'd give you at least *some* pause. but i guess that when you're taking orders directly from god (as bush has claimed he is doing), nothing else matters. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 22:08:31 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: Perhaps a rhetorical question On 6/6/06, Eb wrote: > > Is it just me, or is every new band either from Sweden or Brooklyn? Or both: The Blondx Swedish Meatball Bombers feature members from both locales. - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 00:17:57 -0400 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: Re: offer to you DAVID GERECHE ESQ. wrote: ... the first spam seen on feg? I notice each of us were in the CC list. Stewart ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 08:22:01 -0400 From: FSThomas Subject: Re: My name is "Eb", and I've shit the bed again Stacked Crooked wrote: > but, see, there are laws governing international relations -- and these > laws supersede the constitution. not only is invading other countries > without security council permission a violation of international law; the > nuremberg tribunal considered the initiation of a war of aggression the > most egregious violation of international law that a state could possibly > commit. so egregious, in fact, that german and japanese leaders were put > to death for it. And a majority of security council members are skimming off the Oil For Food Program? It's a little hard to get a clear, clean vote when more than half of your "buddies" are on the take. Not that it's too pertinent, either, but I don't think the US has formally declared war since 1941. Korea, Vietnam, The Gulf War, and now Iraq are technically "police actions," if I'm not mistaken. > "I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger > even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit > that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done > to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not > admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a > stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that > way, has come in and taken their place."] You've gotta love Churchill. > so you're a "rule of law" absolutist (and condescendingly, too) when it > comes to people you, for whatever reason, dislike; and a "law of the > jungle" apologist when it comes to people you, for whatever reason, like. > in some circles, that's known as "talking out of both sides of your mouth". > ain't exactly a compliment. I, err, never took international law into account, and I'm not likely to, either; just as Justices in this country should *never* consider international law when making a decision on ours. "I don't think that foreign law is helpful in interpreting the Constitution. Our Constitution does two basic things. It sets out the structure of our government and it protects fundamental rights. The structure of our government is unique to our country, and so I don't think that looking to decisions of supreme courts of other countries or constitutional courts in other countries is very helpful in deciding questions relating to the structure of our government. As for the protection of individual rights, I think that we should look to our own Constitution and our own precedents. Our country has been the leader in protecting individual rights. If you look at what the world looked like at the time of the adoption of the Bill of Rights, there were not many that protected human -- in fact, I don't think there were any that protected human rights the way our Bill of Rights did." (Samuel Alito, Transcript of hearing Tuesday, January 10, 2006) > which is not to say that i don't think a case could be made that a > non-sanctioned invasion couldn't in theory be justified -- a situation like > rwanda's comes to mind. And Rwanda and not Iraq? Or CC4te d'Ivoire? Elaborate. >(let me know if > you'd like me to address your arguments point-by-point -- i'd be happy to > do so, though probably wouldn't get to it until the week-end; in the > meanwhile, suffice to say that it's riddled with errors of fact and logic) That should be fun. The weekend works for me. > i mean, when 90% of the world is > against you, you'd think it'd give you at least *some* pause. Look at the makeup of the Security Council (2006): Permanent members: China France Union of Soviet Socialist Republics UK US The elected members: Argentina Republic of the Congo Denmark Ghana Greece Japan Peru Qatar Slovakia Tanzania Each of the five permanent members have veto power. A single veto kills a majority vote, so really the elected members don't matter (the above weren't on the council when either Gulf conflict started) when you've got both France & Russia on the take in Oil for Food. The US/UK never stood a chance at getting precious UN approval. - -- FS Thomas | Interactive Developer | fsthomas-at-ochremedia.com 404.758.8616 (home/office) | 404.274.1632 (mobile) | ferraatu (AIM) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 08:07:58 -0500 From: 2fs Subject: Re: My name is "Eb", and I've shit the bed again On 6/7/06, FSThomas wrote: > > Stacked Crooked wrote: > > > but, see, there are laws governing international relations -- and these > > laws supersede the constitution. not only is invading other countries > > without security council permission a violation of international law; > the > > nuremberg tribunal considered the initiation of a war of aggression the > > most egregious violation of international law that a state could > possibly > > commit. so egregious, in fact, that german and japanese leaders were > put > > to death for it. > > > I, err, never took international law into account, and I'm not likely > to, either; just as Justices in this country should *never* consider > international law when making a decision on ours. > > "I don't think that foreign law is helpful in interpreting the > Constitution. Our Constitution does two basic things. It sets out the > structure of our government and it protects fundamental rights. The > structure of our government is unique to our country, and so I don't > think that looking to decisions of supreme courts of other countries or > constitutional courts in other countries is very helpful in deciding > questions relating to the structure of our government. As for the > protection of individual rights, I think that we should look to our own > Constitution and our own precedents. Our country has been the leader in > protecting individual rights. If you look at what the world looked like > at the time of the adoption of the Bill of Rights, there were not many > that protected human -- in fact, I don't think there were any that > protected human rights the way our Bill of Rights did." (Samuel Alito, > Transcript of hearing Tuesday, January 10, 2006) This is bullshit: the Constitution stakes its claims in universal terms. It does not limit the applicability of the principles it sets forth to US citizens (even though laws at the time did so). Because the principles explicitly are to apply to everyone, we cannot disregard them as they might apply to non-US citizens. What follows from that, and in fact from the principle of "rule of law," is in fact to follow international law (insofar as that law is arrived at compatibly with Constitutionally governing principles - as in my earlier post about "meta-law" superceding laws as such). Otherwise "rule of law" is a sham, a power play: "obey us (we'll call it 'law') but otherwise, act as lawlessly as you'd like." More importantly... > which is not to say that i don't think a case could be made that a > > non-sanctioned invasion couldn't in theory be justified -- a situation > like > > rwanda's comes to mind. > > And Rwanda and not Iraq? Or CC4te d'Ivoire? Elaborate. First, you'll notice his remarks were rather qualified: "which is not to say that I don't think..." My own reservations on "humanitarian intervention" are primarily practical. What exactly, in a situation like that of Rwanda, could US (or UN) soldiers have done? They could stand there, and hope their mere presence would be effective (very doubtful in the situation), or more likely stand there and be killed. So they would then have a choice: continue to stand there and be slaughtered, or engage. If they engage, given the circumstances, they would essentially have to regard nearly anyone as a threat - and instant decision-making as to threatworthiness would inevitably result (as it has in Iraq, in fact) in the killing of civilians: women, children, elderly, etc. And that situation surely leads to a hatred of what would be regarded as occupying forces. Given the sort of thing that happened at Haditha, it's utterly unreasonable to expect the population to regard the US as "saviors." If a foreign army had shown up on our shores (even if invited by our government - say, to ensure the recognition of a contested election) and had found itself frequently killing groups of civilians, do you really think you, or most of your fellow citizens, would support them, would regard them as "helping" your nation, would consider them anything but an occupying force to be overwhelmed, defeated, and driven out? All of the above is one reason so much of the rest of the world regards the US with contempt. And that is not something we can afford to ignore: the free-market internationalists are correct in some ways, one of which is that the world's economy is very interdependent. What would the consequences to the US be if the various nations with whom we have trade deficits were to say, "no more"? We cannot afford to cowboy it; we can't just pretend we're the only citizens of this planet. Oh, by the way: I believe in "rule of law" as it applies to the people in my household and network of friends; outside that, there is no law. So I'll be ripping off your credit cards shortly ;-) - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V15 #127 ********************************