From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V15 #16 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Thursday, January 19 2006 Volume 15 : Number 016 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: the campaign begins [Jeff Dwarf ] Re: the campaign begins [2fs ] Re: I can't believe it took me all this time before I finally bought...... [Spotted Eagle Ray ] Re: the campaign begins ["Lauren Elizabeth (gmail)" ] Re: I can't believe it took me all this time before I finally bought...... [Dr Fell ] RE: Devo ["Bachman, Michael" ] Re: Devo [Eb ] Re: Devo [Spotted Eagle Ray ] Re: I can't believe it took me all this time before I finally bought...... ["Lauren Elizabeth (gmail)" ] Okay, I just have to ask. [Spotted Eagle Ray ] Re: Devo [Tom Clark ] Re: Devo [John Barrington Jones ] Re: I can't believe it took me all this time before I finally bought...... [2fs ] Re: Devo [2fs ] Re: Devo [John Barrington Jones ] Re: Devo [Eb ] pseudo-feg sighting! [bayard ] Re: pseudo-feg sighting! [2fs ] Re: pseudo-feg sighting! [Capuchin ] Re: pseudo-feg sighting! [2fs ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 05:25:09 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Dwarf Subject: Re: the campaign begins Hurricane Jesus wrote: > well, > i think i know who i'm voting for in '08: > . > pull-quote: "I despise and hate the Christian God > the Father. He is my enemy." He also seems to think that "War" was a Bruce Springsteen song (not Edwin Starr) and while the idea of impaling George W. Bush does have some merit, he also seems to be not only a believer in the "War on (Certain) Drugs," but a really enthusiast one. Plus, the twat can't even spell Jonathan.... "A severed foot is the ultimate stocking stuffer." -- Mitch Hedberg . Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:37:18 -0600 From: 2fs Subject: Re: the campaign begins On 1/18/06, Jeff Dwarf wrote: > Hurricane Jesus wrote: > > well, > > i think i know who i'm voting for in '08: > > > . > > pull-quote: "I despise and hate the Christian God > > the Father. He is my enemy." > > He also seems to think that "War" was a Bruce > Springsteen song (not Edwin Starr) Nah - in teensy, nearly illegible print (thanks to his bizarre graphical sense) above the lyrics to the song it notes that it was performed but not written by Springsteen. and while the idea > of impaling George W. Bush does have some merit, he > also seems to be not only a believer in the "War on > (Certain) Drugs," but a really enthusiast one. > > Plus, the twat can't even spell Jonathan.... I blame his presumably illiterate parents. Then again, he doesn't seem all that literate himself... My favorite line: "As previously stated, I am evil." That cracks me up. - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 11:36:18 -0800 From: Spotted Eagle Ray Subject: Re: I can't believe it took me all this time before I finally bought...... On 1/17/06, Eb wrote: > > Capuchin wrote: > > > So much melodramatic claptrap. I have no idea what people saw in > > this movie unless maybe you think long, meaningless shots > > accompanied by Crow T. Robot's new age music are supposed to evoke > > some kind of thought or feeling. For me, they're just one long > > fucking note. > > I felt like the "Crow T. Robot" reference in this post kinda tipped > your hand, as far as film orientation goes. It'd actually be funny to see an MST3K take on one of these grim, self-important "humans suck"-themed films. I actually did see "Crash"... it was okay, better than MAGNOLIA and leagues ahead of that Neal Labute shit, but not as good as, say, SHORT CUTS. Humans really aren't that bad. - -Rx ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 12:03:23 -0800 From: "Hurricane Jesus" Subject: Re: the campaign begins more from jonathon: . pull-quote: "Let me put it this way. I wrote this on my [Iraq] war page. When I become president, Bush will be charged, tried, and if convicted of murder, I will impale Bush at the White House and enjoy impaling him as much I will [enjoy impaling] bin Laden when we get a hold of him." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 12:40:48 -0800 From: "Lauren Elizabeth (gmail)" Subject: Re: the campaign begins Hurricane Jesus says: > well, > i think i know who i'm voting for in '08: > . > I like the description of his second wife: "Angela was extremely beautiful and compassionate. She looked like Soap Opera Superstar, Kristian Alfonso." He provides the following helpful link: http://www.jonathonforgovernor.us/Kristian.html As an aside, I am somewhat baffled as to exactly how many wives Jonathon has had. xo Lauren - -- - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "People with opinions just go around bothering one another." - The Buddha ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 15:46:38 -0500 From: "Brian Nupp" Subject: Devo You can add Devo to the list of bands that I'd like to see, but it's too late to. Did anyone see the recent dvd of one of their shows from 1980? Classic Star Wars intro! Bush bashing. Robotic movements! Clean on powerful performance! I am amazed. I'm from Akron and now I'm proud! It is a little known fact that my father, a teacher, had 2 of the Devo members in his high school math class. - -Nuppy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 14:46:58 -0600 From: Dr Fell Subject: Re: I can't believe it took me all this time before I finally bought...... On 1/18/06, Spotted Eagle Ray wrote: > > Humans really aren't that bad. Especially with fava beans and a nice chianti. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:29:16 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Dwarf Subject: Re: Devo Brian Nupp wrote: > It is a little known fact that my > father, a teacher, had 2 of the Devo members in his > high school math class. When my father student-taught Anthropology at Washingston State, Gary Larson was one of his students.... "A severed foot is the ultimate stocking stuffer." -- Mitch Hedberg . Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 16:29:35 -0500 From: "Bachman, Michael" Subject: RE: Devo Nappy wrote: >I'm from Akron and now I'm proud! It is a little known fact that my >father, a teacher, had 2 of the Devo members in his high school math >class. Devo was certainly groundbreaking. Any other punk/new wave acts from Akron beside Devo? Rachel Sweet was from Akron I know, a Stiff artist for her first 2 albums. Michael B. NP My Morning Jacket - Z ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:35:11 -0800 From: Eb Subject: Re: Devo Brian Nupp wrote: > You can add Devo to the list of bands that I'd like to see, but it's > too late to. They performed around here, as recently as August. Eb ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 14:03:23 -0800 From: Spotted Eagle Ray Subject: Re: Devo > Brian Nupp wrote: > > You can add Devo to the list of bands that I'd like to see, but it's > > too late to. > > They performed around here, as recently as August. > > Eb This week, even. I think that all or most of them work for/as Mutato Music, doing film and TV scores (you catch the Mothersbaugh names on a lot music credits for cartoon shows). I saw them in college at a free show on campus... it was great. - -Rx ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 14:07:29 -0800 From: "Lauren Elizabeth (gmail)" Subject: Re: I can't believe it took me all this time before I finally bought...... Michael B. says: > Colin Newman - A-Z > > Maybe I should get Wire - 154 next. Does the box set of Pink Flag/Chairs > Missing/154 > have improved sound over the single issue discs? I have PF and CM, and I > noticed 154 > is out of print, although I see some used copies are floating about. > 154 is my favourite Wire album. I find it less consistent than Pink Flag, but IMO, all the best Wire songs on it. I have it on vinyl and haven't followed CD releases. BTW, Feg List...for twenty years, I've been pronouncing the title "one five four" and am clueless as to whether that's right. Any thoughts? I like the Colin Newman album "Provisionally Entitled The Singing Fish" which came with a bonus CD called "Not To" (I think I like the bonus CD even better than the "main" CD), but my favourite solo release is "Commercial Suicide." Movies seen in the theatre, as of late (*warning* - possible spoilers..) "Capote" - This was probably the 2005 release I liked best this year. Philip Seymour Hoffman doesn't miss a beat. "Match Point" - I was disappointed, but, then again, my hopes were very high. "Crimes and Misdemeanors", to which it is being compared, is more structured and thus more contrived, but I believe it works so much better for the subject matter (I'm sure that one's on my top 20 movie list.) Random shots of Mr. Rhys-Meyers' character reading Dostoevsky just seem kinda dumb. It was like Mr. Allen was making half a point, if that. Even the title of the movie bugged me - the tennis metaphor is a minor one. Recommended, nevertheless. "Brokeback Mountain" - Where the hell did Heath Ledger come from? He's amazing. Jake Gyllenhaal was terrific as well, and pretty as always. The movie was solid and beautiful, but it was somewhat predictable and too "sweeping" for me to fall in love with it (it covers about 20 years.) I was surprised that the movie bothered my 69-year, generally-liberal Mom (she described the love scenes as "carnal".) Recommended. "Walk the Line" - This was soooo formulaic and soooo sweeping, but charming enough that I found it very enjoyable. Recommended (go ahead, try not to like it...) And..."Crash" (which is not that recent, but it's been discussed on this thread, so I added it...) - I found this movie insulting. It seems like an opportunity for a bunch of white folks to sit in a theatre and pat themselves on the back for being enlightened. I am all for contrived story lines, but this one was way too preachy to get away with it. Yeah, rent "Magnolia" instead. At least I can buy that there's that many uptight, emotionally-repressed characters just waiting to come unhinged... xo Lauren NP: Elliott Smith "Flowers for Charlie" 1999-04-05, Ludlows. - -- - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "People with opinions just go around bothering one another." - The Buddha ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 23:38:42 +0100 From: Sebastian Hagedorn Subject: Re: I can't believe it took me all this time before I finally bought...... - -- "Lauren Elizabeth (gmail)" is rumored to have mumbled on 18. Januar 2006 14:07:29 -0800 regarding Re: I can't believe it took me all this time before I finally bought......: > 154 is my favourite Wire album. Same here. > I find it less consistent than Pink > Flag, but IMO, all the best Wire songs on it. Yup, with the exception of Outdoor Miner. > BTW, Feg List...for twenty years, I've been pronouncing the title "one > five four" and am clueless as to whether that's right. Any thoughts? That's what I always say, but I have no idea what it means. > "Match Point" - I was disappointed, but, then again, my hopes were > very high. Right, after all the raves I was definitely expecting more. > "Crimes and Misdemeanors", to which it is being compared, > is more structured and thus more contrived, but I believe it works so > much better for the subject matter (I'm sure that one's on my top 20 > movie list.) I also remember it as being better, but I haven't seen it in ages. > Random shots of Mr. Rhys-Meyers' character reading > Dostoevsky just seem kinda dumb. Well, he had to in order to make the Crime & Punishment reversal more obvious. ;-) > It was like Mr. Allen was making > half a point, if that. Even the title of the movie bugged me - the > tennis metaphor is a minor one. Recommended, nevertheless. If only for Scarlett Johansson :-) > And..."Crash" (which is not that recent, but it's been discussed on > this thread, so I added it...) - I found this movie insulting. It > seems like an opportunity for a bunch of white folks to sit in a > theatre and pat themselves on the back for being enlightened. I am > all for contrived story lines, but this one was way too preachy to get > away with it. Yeah, rent "Magnolia" instead. At least I can buy > that there's that many uptight, emotionally-repressed characters just > waiting to come unhinged... "Magnolia" is one of my favorite movies, but I avoided "Crash". The reviews were mostly positive, but it didn't sound like a movie I'd enjoy. Cronenberg's "Crash" was IMO probably the weirdest of all his movies. I haven't read any J.G. Ballard, but I've heard that it was true to the novel ... maybe that makes me a shallow person, but I mostly remember how hot Debra Unger was. - -- Sebastian Hagedorn Ehrenfeldg|rtel 156, 50823 Kvln, Germany http://www.spinfo.uni-koeln.de/~hgd/ "Being just contaminates the void" - Robyn Hitchcock ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 14:47:21 -0800 From: Eb Subject: Re: I can't believe it took me all this time before I finally bought...... Sebastian Hagedorn wrote: >> BTW, Feg List...for twenty years, I've been pronouncing the title >> "one >> five four" and am clueless as to whether that's right. Any thoughts? > > That's what I always say, but I have no idea what it means. It's reportedly how many live shows Wire had played, up until that point. Eb ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 14:49:39 -0800 From: Spotted Eagle Ray Subject: Re: I can't believe it took me all this time before I finally bought...... On 1/18/06, Sebastian Hagedorn wrote: > > > BTW, Feg List...for twenty years, I've been pronouncing the title "one > > five four" and am clueless as to whether that's right. Any thoughts? > > That's what I always say, but I have no idea what it means. I think it's the number of live gigs they'd performed at that time or something related to that. It's definitely a stunner of a record. Strangely (or maybe not) I don't know that I've ever said the name of the album out loud, so I don't know how I would pronounce it myself... whatever my instinct would have been, it's been unduly influenced by this thread. - -Rx ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 18:02:23 -0500 From: "Brian Nupp" Subject: Re: Devo >Brian Nupp wrote: >> You can add Devo to the list of bands that I'd like to see, but >it's >> too late to. > >Depends on your definition of "too late to." > >They played Music Midtown here in Atlanta last summer. Original >lineup >and all. > >Sounded pretty good, too. > >-ferris. Great! I will certainly see them if I have the chance! - -Nuppy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 15:27:06 -0800 From: Spotted Eagle Ray Subject: Okay, I just have to ask. Reggaeton: WTF? (Or more precisely, not WTF enough-- the thing that alienates me from this "crazy new music the kids listen to these days" is not that it's a befuddling new sound... more like the fact that it doesn't sound that much different from any number or existing genres, one of the existing genres that it doesn't sound that much like being reggae, unless dancehall has changed a lot since the last time I paid it any mind.) (Then again perhaps this youth music succeeds in pissing me off precisely by frustrating my desire to be completely befuddled and alienated by it like an old dude is supposed to be. In other words, I've been denied the satisfaction of getting to ask "consarn it, what's that awful noise", and have instead had to settle for being informed that what appeared to be the same awful noise as yesterday was now called something else, and my dreams of growing old gracelessly must die on the vine.) (It sure is slutty, though, and a lot of five-year-old kids of widely varied ethnic and cultural backgrounds seem to have been brought together by having very very naughty Spanish lyrics committed to memory. In my neighborhood, at least.) (Do any of you non-US fegs know what I'm talking about?) - -Rx ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 16:23:20 -0800 From: Tom Clark Subject: Re: Devo On Jan 18, 2006, at 12:46 PM, Brian Nupp wrote: > You can add Devo to the list of bands that I'd like to see, but it's > too late to. > > Did anyone see the recent dvd of one of their shows from 1980? I always had a passing interest in them but it wasn't until I picked up the "Pioneers Who Got Scalped" box set that their genius really hit home. I guess their performance in "Urgh: A Music War" is around the same time as that DVD - so it's definitely going in my Netflix queue! - -tc ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 16:39:44 -0800 (PST) From: John Barrington Jones Subject: Re: Devo On Wed, 18 Jan 2006, Tom Clark wrote: > On Jan 18, 2006, at 12:46 PM, Brian Nupp wrote: > I always had a passing interest in them but it wasn't until I picked up the > "Pioneers Who Got Scalped" box set that their genius really hit home. I > guess their performance in "Urgh: A Music War" is around the same time as > that DVD - so it's definitely going in my Netflix queue! When the hell is Urgh: A Music War gonna be released on DVD?? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 18:42:09 -0600 From: 2fs Subject: Re: I can't believe it took me all this time before I finally bought...... On 1/18/06, Spotted Eagle Ray wrote: > On 1/18/06, Sebastian Hagedorn wrote: > > > > > BTW, Feg List...for twenty years, I've been pronouncing the title "one > > > five four" and am clueless as to whether that's right. Any thoughts? > > > > That's what I always say, but I have no idea what it means. > > > I think it's the number of live gigs they'd performed at that time or > something related to that. I think that's canonical - I'm pretty sure it's in the Eden book ("it's all in the brochure"!) - but I'm cynical about it's really being the case. My guess is they just liked the way it looked. At least, if I were to call something "154," that'd be why I'd call it that. Of the first three Wire albums, it's a tossup between 154 and Chairs Missing. Maybe because Chairs Missing was the first Wire vers. 1 I heard (first Wire I heard was, I think, bits of the Snakedrill EP at a party thrown by a friend of my sister, or something like that, probably around '88 or so. First Wire purchase then was Ideal Copy (which included that EP on CD). And Lauren: you're spot-on about that CN1 ep that came with ...Singing Fish - excellent stuff. I just put "H.C.T.F.R." on a mix in fact. - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 19:00:09 -0600 From: 2fs Subject: Re: Okay, I just have to ask. On 1/18/06, Spotted Eagle Ray wrote: > Reggaeton: WTF? > > (Or more precisely, not WTF enough...) RxRay wins the Feg Subrosa Communication Award, for encasing 95% of that post within parentheses. (I'll whisper the rest: yeah, I've heard bits and pieces of it - like, as I'm wandering through Target looking for shelves or deodorant or something - and what amuses me is the obsession with nomenclature seems similar to the phenomenon in the megagenre I will refer to here as Generally Dance-Friendly Primarily-Electronic Often-Instrumental music (f/k/a "electronica") which was positively paramecium-like in its rapid ramifying into mysteriously-named subsubsubsubsubgenres...nearly all of which, to an Elder Flatulent such as myself, were indiscernible from one another. I mean, it's funny: I sometimes wonder what non-musicians, or casual music fans, think musical genre is - and one theory is that they actually think it's something "official," as if there's a recipe or rulebook for making "blues" vs. "country" vs. "folk" vs. "metal" etc. So I wonder sometimes if there isn't such a thing distinguishing all those electroparamecia from one another ("no, that's Techno-Hooftrace-DigiSmashola because - wait, did you hear it, right there? - that one little tinking sound from that cheapo Casio made in 1987. If it uses the 'ding' from the '90s Casio, that makes it Techno-DigiSmashing Tracehoof Beat. Gawd yr an idjit!"). Although I'm probably worng.) Typo left in for humor potential. - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 19:05:27 -0600 From: 2fs Subject: Re: Devo On 1/18/06, John Barrington Jones wrote: > When the hell is Urgh: A Music War gonna be released on DVD?? My bet is there's a billion licensing issues... Also, when Brian said "You can add Devo to the list of bands that I'd like to see, but it's too late to," was I the only one who then scanned Yahoo etc. to see which guy in the band had died? - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 17:22:46 -0800 (PST) From: John Barrington Jones Subject: Re: Devo On Wed, 18 Jan 2006, 2fs wrote: > On 1/18/06, John Barrington Jones wrote: > >> When the hell is Urgh: A Music War gonna be released on DVD?? > > My bet is there's a billion licensing issues... I did a bit of googling on it. Found out that the Sundance Channel showed it at some point. But I think that's as close as its gonna get to a reissue. =jbj= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 17:48:17 -0800 From: Eb Subject: Re: Devo John Barrington Jones wrote: > Found out that the Sundance Channel showed it at some point. I think I probably mentioned seeing "Urgh!" on Sundance, some months back. And how I couldn't understand why the Gary Numan and "Splodgenessabounds" performances were missing, despite being referenced in the closing credits. That "reggaeton" thing puzzles me a bit, too. Started seeing lots of talk about reggaeton about a year ago, and it took me awhile to actually hear the stuff. But, here, I believe 96.3FM is almost nothing *but* reggaeton. To me, it doesn't seem distinctive enough to warrant its own genre label. Just sounds like a dance-y mish-mash of reggae, hip-hop and Latin influences, arranged in a highly synthetic way. Hard to figure out what the hoopla is about. I'd find it more understandable if a single artist unveiled this style, became popular and some other acts imitated him/them...without anyone claiming a "new" kind of music had been invented. I still do not own a pure reggae album. Shameful, yes. "Outlandos d'Amour" is about as close as I get. I believe someone requested a reap announcement with a lot of "a's," so I oblige below. Well-known Telugu and Tamil actor singer Shantakumari died at her residence here following prolonged illness, according to family sources. Widow of celebrated Telugu Film Director P Pulliah, the yesteryears screen mother had been suffering from high blood pressure for some years and was in coma at the time of her death. She was 85. The actor is survived by her two daughters. Born V Subbamma at Prodduttoru in Cuddappah district of Andhra Pradesh, Shantakumari, who was also popular as a singer in AIR, was introduced to the Telugu cinema in 1936 in P R Das's film ''Sasirekha Parinayam,'' which was considered a predecessor to the 50s' smash hit ''Maya Bazaar.'' After her second film ''Sarangadhara,'' was made by Pulliah, Shantakumari got married to the director and rose to stardom graduating to character roles, especially those of a mother. Some of her memorable films include ''Sirisampadhalu'', ''Bhaktha Jayadeva'', ''Venkateswara Mahatyam,'' -- which narrates the history of the world famous Lord Venkateswara Temple at Tirumala, ''Premnagar'', ''Thalla Pellama'' (all Telugu) and ''Dharma Devathai'' and ''Vasantha Maligai'' in Tamil. Shantakumari was also known for her rendition of many melodious numbers especially of the ''Bhakthi rasa.'' She was honoured by the Tamil Nadu Government with the prestigious ''Kalaimamani'' award and by the Andhra Pradesh Government with ''Raghupathi Venkiah Award.'' The funeral will be held today, the sources said. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 20:13:07 -0800 (PST) From: bayard Subject: pseudo-feg sighting! Note that I have not read this page yet (and doubt I will agree with it, but we shall see) but this drawing of ben franklin totally looks like one of the Fegs. Can you tell which one? http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pdupont/?id=110007823 Go on! Guess! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 22:39:39 -0600 From: 2fs Subject: Re: pseudo-feg sighting! On 1/18/06, bayard wrote: > Note that I have not read this page yet (and doubt I will agree with it, > but we shall see) but this drawing of ben franklin totally looks like one > of the Fegs. Can you tell which one? > > http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pdupont/?id=110007823 Errr, uh...Biff? (I've only met a handful of fegs...all crosslisted with That Other List, actually.) Patti Smith? Oh, and the article is ignorant and dangerous. First, FISA allows the President to initiate wiretaps sans warrants in emergency situations so long as Congress is notified within 72 hours...so the "urgency" argument is bullshit. The notion - drawn from examples 200 years old - that "Congress" (meaning 200 years ago) thought wiretapping was okay (wait - there were no phones then...) flies in the face of the fact that when Bush explicitly sought to expand his war power to include domestic activities, Congress (the Congress whose members are still alive, not dead for 200 years) shot him down. The arguments about "no explicit limitations on presidential nat-sec powers" ignores the overarching fact that we're supposed to be living in a Constitutional republic, and the president is not above the law. A president who claims to be able to arrogate any power to himself, without notice and without public justification, is a president who claims the same powers as a dictator. Finally, to all the questions at the end of the article: fact is, the US, prior to 9/11, *had* lots of information all but confirming an imminent terrorist attack. The info was ignored, or not properly processed. Until *those* problems are fixed, granting even more, and more invasive, powers to the president is dangerous and foolish idea, more corrosive to liberty than protective of freedom. - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 20:59:46 -0800 (PST) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: pseudo-feg sighting! On Wed, 18 Jan 2006, 2fs wrote: >> http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pdupont/?id=110007823 > > Oh, and the article is ignorant and dangerous. Here's my favorite bit: "If we had known that one of those terrorist attacks was coming, could our government have electronically eavesdropped on the attackers without a warrant?" Why the fuck wouldn't they get a warrant if they'd known (i.e., had probable cause to believe) an attack was imminent from these particular conspirators? People don't seem to understand that probable cause is a pretty freakin' low standard. How are you choosing the subjects of surveillance if you haven't probable cause to believe they are conspirators? J. - -- _______________________________________________ Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin _______________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 23:23:47 -0600 From: 2fs Subject: Re: pseudo-feg sighting! On 1/18/06, Capuchin wrote: > On Wed, 18 Jan 2006, 2fs wrote: > >> http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pdupont/?id=110007823 > > > > Oh, and the article is ignorant and dangerous. > > Here's my favorite bit: > > "If we had known that one of those terrorist attacks was coming, could our > government have electronically eavesdropped on the attackers without a > warrant?" > > Why the fuck wouldn't they get a warrant if they'd known (i.e., had > probable cause to believe) an attack was imminent from these particular > conspirators? And as I mentioned, for 72 hours they don't need a warrant. The usual argument, though (which seems borrowed from an episode of _24_), is that a warrant would let the terrists know we're onto them, which would supposedly limit our ability to catch them. Of course, *catching* them lets them know we're onto them - the logic is, of course, to let them carry out their attacks so we know what they're up to. Or fake attacks to draw them out. And Rumsfeld (I think it was him) suggested as much, as reported in an LA Times article about 3-4 years ago: that black ops "fake" terrorist acts. Ah - here it is: The real problem right now, of course, is the Bush administration's massive incompetence. I mean, three months after Katrina some stuff hasn't even been touched; in three months the US managed to send an entire army halfway around the world and overthrow a dictator. Not that the followup was any more competent. But, as with conspiracy theorists, those who wish for more and more government power to catch terrorists imagine a perfect and transparent handling of that information. That - even in a competent administration - is unlikely. Relatedly, a problem with all the wiretapping is sifting through the noise and effectively isolating signal. The more lame-ass leads are followed up on, the likelier it is strong leads will be neglected through oversight or sheer overburdenedness. - -- ...Jeff Norman The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V15 #16 *******************************