From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V14 #74 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Tuesday, March 22 2005 Volume 14 : Number 074 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: the all-American Rapture, Ann Coulter [Rex Broome ] Re: the all-American Rapture, Ann Coulter [The Great Quail ] Trains [Jill Brand ] Re: Trains [Rex Broome ] RE: the all-American Rapture, Ann Coulter ["Brian Huddell" ] Re: Trains [Rex Broome ] Re: the all-American Rapture, Ann Coulter [Benjamin Lukoff ] Re: some buttsex, then music ["Revolutionary Army of the Baby Jesus" ] Re: Incidental to "24" fans [Eb ] Re: Incidental to "24" fans [Rex Broome ] Re: Incidental to "24" fans [Rex Broome ] Re: the all-American Rapture, Ann Coulter [Jeff ] Re: Incidental to "24" fans [Jeff ] Apple downloads (NR) [steve ] Re: Trains [Eb ] Re: Trains [Miles Goosens ] track-ums in the middle [Dolph Chaney ] Re: the all-American Rapture, Ann Coulter [Barbara Soutar Subject: Re: the all-American Rapture, Ann Coulter > You know, the reason I responded at all is because it's exactly the way a > lot of my fellow liberals talk about the South. I'm not a native southerner > (born in Seattle) but I've lived here a long time. I've also lived in > central California and the Bay Area and spent time in the northeast. It > doesn't take much work to realize that there are racist idiots everywhere, > so I always bristle whenever someone tries to pump themselves up by trashing > the South. Yeah, word. I think you'll find a lot of support for that position around here. The Red State/Blue State dichotomy is such oversimplified bullshit, getting more oversimplified and bullshittier year by year. - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 10:51:13 -0800 From: Tom Clark Subject: Re: Incidental to "24" fans On Mar 21, 2005, at 9:50 AM, Rex Broome wrote: > "Due to some other highly unlikely coincidences that same night, I > briefly > believed that Forster had been instructed to ask that question to > single me > out of the crowd so that the guy who was supposed to assassinate me > later > could ID me. So I guess that other guy got whacked instead. By Heidi Klum, no less! > Basically it entertains me that I'd constructed my own fake conspiracy > thriller including McLennan/Forster before 24 did, and I wonder which > of my Hollywood pals I might've told that story to over the years. If > the 24 season finale occurs at the Troubador, I'm gonna be mildly > pissed. > Habib Marwan rips the mask off his face and it's...Jon Brion!!! Speaking of "24" & JB, I read recently where Mary Lynn Rajskub ("Chloe") is a regular on that new Kelsey Grammer comedy sketch show, and just bought herself a nice house on the beach. Good for her. - -tc ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:29:14 -0500 From: The Great Quail Subject: Re: the all-American Rapture, Ann Coulter > Yeah, word. I think you'll find a lot of support for that position > around here. The Red State/Blue State dichotomy is such > oversimplified bullshit, getting more oversimplified and bullshittier > year by year. It's simplified because of our current electorate system, true; and of course people are more complex than simply declaring them as Blue- or Red-staters. But the Red State/Blue State dichotomy is not *that* oversimplified, as it does reflect an undeniable truth -- there are consistent and time-proven patterns of political and religious belief that hold dominance in various regions. Do you really think that the majorities in Alabama and Vermont don't have fundamental differences? I'm not saying that just bashing the South is the answer; but there are large sections of America that, taken as voting blocks, do not exactly reflect each other's values. And this is different than Canada bashing America. As a totality, the US is split almost 50/50; whereas the South and much of the Midwest are *consistently* anti-liberal, time and time again. - --Quail ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 11:49:26 -0800 From: Rex Broome Subject: Re: the all-American Rapture, Ann Coulter Quail > It's simplified because of our current electorate system, true; And moreover the media... >and of > course people are more complex than simply declaring them as Blue- or > Red-staters. But the Red State/Blue State dichotomy is not *that* > oversimplified, as it does reflect an undeniable truth -- there are > consistent and time-proven patterns of political and religious belief that > hold dominance in various regions. Do you really think that the majorities > in Alabama and Vermont don't have fundamental differences? I'm not saying > that just bashing the South is the answer; but there are large sections of > America that, taken as voting blocks, do not exactly reflect each other's > values. You're obviously gonna get the most stringent objections from people who fail to reflect the redness or blueness of their home states. And it is complex. If they'd kept track of such things by color back in the day, my homestate was blue when I left it, and is red now. That shift occurred for shitloads of complex and intertwined reasons. I never said there was no truth to observable regional political differences, just that it was grossly oversimplified and getting moreso. More a critique of media boneheadedness than a comment on what's actually happening in the states concerned. - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:17:32 -0500 (EST) From: Jill Brand Subject: small world, isn't it Woj wrote: n.p. the sawtelles on wnhu Funny, my friend Julie and her husband Peter are in the Sawtelles. Julie and I used to raise all kinds of hell in our quest to see as many Ray Davies's solo gigs as possible (although she won because she didn't have small kids to keep her home at night). The trip to Princeton NJ was very memorable, but this all seems like ancient history now. Jill, humming a melange of Kinks tunes ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:24:21 -0500 (EST) From: Jill Brand Subject: Trains To me, I Often Dream of Trains is still just the vinyl version. When I listen to the CD, I have to use the CD programming thingy so that I can either delete the added tracks or put them at the end. Sure, I use the random setting for lots of CDs, especially if I am out walking and want to be surprised, but there are albums whose songs must remain sequential for me, and this is one of them. Is there a snobbism in that? If there is, I'll own it. Jill ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:32:29 -0800 From: Rex Broome Subject: Re: Trains Jill: > To me, I Often Dream of Trains is still just the vinyl version. When I > listen to the CD, I have to use the CD programming thingy so that I can > either delete the added tracks or put them at the end. Sure, I use the > random setting for lots of CDs, especially if I am out walking and want to > be surprised, but there are albums whose songs must remain > sequential for me, and this is one of them. Is there a snobbism in that? > If there is, I'll own it. It's come up re: the Rhino reissues severaly times, and I think the prevailing list opinion is that those songs shouldn't be there in the middle of the original sequence, however good they may be. Of course most of us played these records to death in their pre-Rhino forms, so we're a lousy control group. - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:37:16 -0600 From: "Brian Huddell" Subject: RE: the all-American Rapture, Ann Coulter Quail: > It's simplified because of our current electorate system, true; and of > course people are more complex than simply declaring them as Blue- or > Red-staters. But the Red State/Blue State dichotomy is not *that* > oversimplified, as it does reflect an undeniable truth -- there are > consistent and time-proven patterns of political and religious belief that > hold dominance in various regions. No question. It becomes offensive, or at least annoying, when traits that should be ascribed to voting blocs are ascribed to *people* (I'm not saying anyone here has necessarily done that). Prejudice isn't just a bad thing when it's statistically unfounded -- it pretty much sucks no matter what. I think some liberals get exactly the same rush of superiority when they put down the South as a racist gets from putting down blacks. It's even more offensive coming from my progressive brothers and sisters because they should know better. /pet peeve +brian in the Blue city of New Orleans in the Red state of Louisiana ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:44:17 -0500 From: "Bachman, Michael" Subject: RE: Trains Jill wrote: >To me, I Often Dream of Trains is still just the vinyl version. When I >listen to the CD, I have to use the CD programming thingy so that I can >either delete the added tracks or put them at the end. Sure, I use the >random setting for lots of CDs, especially if I am out walking and want to >be surprised, but there are albums whose songs must remain >sequential for me, and this is one of them. Is there a snobbism in that? >If there is, I'll own it. Common compliant on Big Star's 3rd/Sister Lovers CD from all the reviews I read. I never had the original vinyl, but bought the CD when it came out in 1993 or so, and the sequence sounded fine to me. Michael B. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:54:17 -0800 From: Rex Broome Subject: Re: Trains Michael: > Common compliant on Big Star's 3rd/Sister Lovers CD from all the reviews > I read. I never had the original vinyl, but bought the CD when it came out > in 1993 or so, and the sequence sounded fine to me. Isn't there a caveat on that one that it was released several times over the years on vinyl, never having the same sequence twice and often under a different title, and the Ryko version was as close to the orginal idea as Chilton and Stephens could be trusted to provide? Or am I thinking of something else? - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:55:30 -0800 (PST) From: Benjamin Lukoff Subject: Re: the all-American Rapture, Ann Coulter On Mon, 21 Mar 2005, Rex Broome wrote: > > course people are more complex than simply declaring them as Blue- or > > Red-staters. But the Red State/Blue State dichotomy is not *that* > > oversimplified, as it does reflect an undeniable truth -- there are > > consistent and time-proven patterns of political and religious belief that > > hold dominance in various regions. Do you really think that the majorities > > in Alabama and Vermont don't have fundamental differences? I'm not saying > > that just bashing the South is the answer; but there are large sections of > > America that, taken as voting blocks, do not exactly reflect each other's > > values. I think everyone should take a look at the maps on this page: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/election/ -- puts things into much better context. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:15:20 -0500 From: "Bachman, Michael" Subject: RE: Trains Michael: >> Common compliant on Big Star's 3rd/Sister Lovers CD from all the reviews >> I read. I never had the original vinyl, but bought the CD when it came out >> in 1993 or so, and the sequence sounded fine to me. Rex came back with: >Isn't there a caveat on that one that it was released several times >over the years on vinyl, never having the same sequence twice and >often under a different title, and the Ryko version was as close to >the orginal idea as Chilton and Stephens could be trusted to provide? >Or am I thinking of something else? Yeah, it was delayed about 3-4 years, then released, then released again and under different titles. I did read that some people liked having Kangaroo and Holocaust spread apart on the vinyl, rather than together on the CD. I guess it's what sequence you exposed to first that becomes your favorite in a lot of cases. Did Chilton put out anything decent after 3rd/Sister Lovers that is anywhere close to Big Star's 3 studio albums in terms of quality? Michael B. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:24:15 -0800 From: "Revolutionary Army of the Baby Jesus" Subject: Re: some buttsex, then music this is theoretically true -- indeed, it's a truism. but is your implication that there *were* legitimate reasons? <...which is why the "Bush Lied" bumper sticker is just a slogan instead of debate.> well, it's difficult to engage in debate within the confines of a bumper-sticker. but "bush lied, people died" is fairly good, as far as slogans go (although my own personal opinion is that if bush *hadn't been* lying, he wouldn't have been doing his job -- it's up to the media to expose those lies) -- especially given that the invasion was *sold* on the grounds that saddam was capable of attacking us with WMD on 45 minutes' notice (and that he was itching to do so). and, while clinton was as surely a war criminal as is bush; when you compare the lies that clinton was impeached for to those that bush *hasn't been* impeached for, the "people died" half of the bumper-sticker is certainly worth repeating. for what it's worth, i'm of the opinion that even if saddam *had* begun producing WMD again following the withdrawal of UNSCOM in december of '98, that this still would not have been legitimate (or even remotely close) grounds for an invasion. if interested, see and for my reasoning. really, "Fairytale" isn't *about* christmas. with that in mind, i give the nod to "Father Christmas". KEN "Sometimes I feel like a motherless chile" THE KENSTER ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:25:23 -0800 From: Rex Broome Subject: Re: Trains Michael: > Did Chilton put out anything decent after 3rd/Sister Lovers that is anywhere > close to Big Star's 3 studio albums in terms of quality? Short answer: no. Long answer: some who get off on the verge-of-death vibe of "Third" fetishize the even more fucked-up "Like Flies on Sherbet (sic)". I find it interesting, but kind of icky. It's similarly shambolic, but where "Third" doesn't sound like anything other than what it is, "Sherbet" sounds like it was supposed to be a depressing record that was fun to make, being based more on rock tropes played close to the edge of chaos and devoid of explicit mournfulness. Don't think it really flies, pun intended yet undeleted. - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:34:18 -0800 From: Eb Subject: Re: Incidental to "24" fans Rex Broome wrote: > 'cuz the list will recall how the Go-Betweens were once indeed part of > an evil conspiracy to assassinate me. > > -Rex, turning a random thread into something all about himself just to > make Quail happy > Showing awareness of the shift in focus doesn't make it any less symptomatic. ;) Eb ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:57:19 -0800 From: Rex Broome Subject: Re: Incidental to "24" fans Hey. Eb. Fuck you. Die. I so don't have anything else to say to your sad, sad ass. - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:01:09 -0800 From: Rex Broome Subject: Re: Incidental to "24" fans Oh, I forgot: ;) - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:44:44 -0800 From: Jeff Subject: Re: the all-American Rapture, Ann Coulter On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:29:14 -0500, The Great Quail wrote: > It's simplified because of our current electorate system, true; and of > course people are more complex than simply declaring them as Blue- or > Red-staters. But the Red State/Blue State dichotomy is not *that* > oversimplified, as it does reflect an undeniable truth -- there are > consistent and time-proven patterns of political and religious belief that > hold dominance in various regions. Do you really think that the majorities > in Alabama and Vermont don't have fundamental differences? I'm not saying > that just bashing the South is the answer; but there are large sections of > America that, taken as voting blocks, do not exactly reflect each other's > values. Brian already linked to it - http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/election/ - but the importance of this site is at least twofold: one, that the redness and blueness in most states is a matter of less than 5-10% difference (only a couple of states went 60%+ for either candidate), and that the real split is (for the most part) urban/rural, with urban areas, except in the reddest of states like Texas, tending blue, and rural areas (except...) tending red. Those factors, plus our winner-take-all majority-rules system, are what lead to the ridiculous dichotomizing that is the red/blue paradigm. There is a real split in America, to be sure - but it's within states, within cities, within city blocks, and among neighbors. Back to our nominal subject: someone (Marc?) referred to Ann Coulter as an "entertainer": true, she is that (although why she'd be regarded as "entertaining" in any way is beyond me) but the problem is that she's *presented* as if she has something worthwhile and intelligent to say. That is, she's presented not as, say, a comedian doing political commentary in a bit on Letterman or something, but as a serious journalist. I would have less problem with her if all she was, if all she were presented as being, was a crazed right-wing comedian...but alas, there are those who take her seriously. Did anyone mention the "old Arab Helen Thomas" thing yet? Not "bloodthirsty" - but racist? Duh! - -- ...Jeff The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:50:45 -0800 From: Jeff Subject: Re: Incidental to "24" fans On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 10:51:13 -0800, Tom Clark wrote: >> Speaking of "24" & JB, I read recently where Mary Lynn Rajskub > ("Chloe") is a regular on that new Kelsey Grammer comedy sketch show, > and just bought herself a nice house on the beach. Good for her. I hope your "good for her" is about the beach house - because judging from the ads, if it's about the sketch show, that's sorta like saying "I am glad to see her suffer in the presence of a sketch show that apparently makes Benny Hill look like Kierkegaard and which, apparently, could only come up with as its funniest bit the old 'getting conked on the head' bit." Or maybe there's a new definition of "comedy" that I've missed that involves excruciating torture. - -- ...Jeff The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 21:18:43 -0600 From: steve Subject: Apple downloads (NR) If you missed Extraordinary Machine the first time round, here's another site - Direct and BitTorrent - - Steve - ---------- The Himalayan marmot is one of the highest living mammals in the world. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 19:38:13 -0800 From: Eb Subject: Re: Trains > Common compliant on Big Star's 3rd/Sister Lovers CD from all the > reviews > I read. I never had the original vinyl, but bought the CD when it came > out > in 1993 or so, and the sequence sounded fine to me. > I liked the sequencing of the old PVC issue better. "Jesus Christ" works great as an opening track, "Thank You Friends" seems like such a perfect album-closer.... I have the Ryko version too, but never have been able to stomach getting rid of the earlier PVC pressing. The PVC version has a hotter mix too...hissier than Ryko, but also with more "edge." The Ryko version seems a bit overpolished and conservative, in comparison. Eb ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 23:07:22 -0600 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: Trains On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:32:29 -0800, Rex Broome wrote: > Jill: > > To me, I Often Dream of Trains is still just the vinyl version. When I > > listen to the CD, I have to use the CD programming thingy so that I can > > either delete the added tracks or put them at the end. Sure, I use the > > random setting for lots of CDs, especially if I am out walking and want to > > be surprised, but there are albums whose songs must remain > > sequential for me, and this is one of them. Is there a snobbism in that? > > If there is, I'll own it. > > It's come up re: the Rhino reissues severaly times, and I think the > prevailing list opinion is that those songs shouldn't be there in the > middle of the original sequence, however good they may be. Of course > most of us played these records to death in their pre-Rhino forms, so > we're a lousy control group. You can't just blame Rhino - the very first IODOT CD (on Midnight or Glass Fish or whatever) put the original bonus tracks in the middle, and there they've remained. This seemed to be a minor fad in the early days of CD reissues -- many of you might recall the original c. 1986-87 XTC CDs, which did the same thing. For instance, on BLACK SEA you got "Don't Lose Your Temper" and "The Somnambulist" right before "Towers of London." This wasn't addressed until the most recent run of XTC reissues, where they were at last moved to the end of the CDs. later, Miles, now fondly remembering the suitcase full of CDs he brought back from London in '87, many of which were those original XTC and Robyn discs ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 23:42:27 -0600 From: Dolph Chaney Subject: track-ums in the middle Allow me to put forward the contrary opinion, since it's sometimes mine (and other times not). A big part of "proper sequencing" is how an album ends. It was put forward here, eons ago (by Librik? by Godwin?), that having UNDERWATER MOONLIGHT not conclude with its title track is a great cheat to newer listeners. In the XTC case, this is a drastic change. Sometimes, there is a happy accident (BLACK SEA, for example, allows you to drift off with "The Somnambulist," a much more peaceful way to go than via "Travels In Nihilon"; GO 2 similarly provides a different shade to the finish by closing with "Are You Receiving Me?" rather than the less convincing "I Am The Audience"). Sometimes, it is an utter disaster (how does WHITE MUSIC not conclude with "Neon Shuffle"? how does DRUMS AND WIRES not conclude with "Complicated Game"??? or THE BIG EXPRESS, "Train Running Low On Soul Coal"?). To me, the win-win is how Rhino's doing the Elvis Costello catalog -- 2 CDs (the album proper on one, the bonuses on another) for the list price of one new CD release. I think the Cure reissues are mostly following the same model. (And at least we eventually got the 3-LP version of UNDERWATER MOONLIGHT to put that right.) - -- Dolph At 11:07 PM 3/21/2005, Miles Goosens wrote: >On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:32:29 -0800, Rex Broome wrote: > > Jill: > > > To me, I Often Dream of Trains is still just the vinyl version. When I > > > listen to the CD, I have to use the CD programming thingy so that I can > > > either delete the added tracks or put them at the end. Sure, I use the > > > random setting for lots of CDs, especially if I am out walking and > want to > > > be surprised, but there are albums whose songs must remain > > > sequential for me, and this is one of them. Is there a snobbism in that? > > > If there is, I'll own it. > > > > It's come up re: the Rhino reissues severaly times, and I think the > > prevailing list opinion is that those songs shouldn't be there in the > > middle of the original sequence, however good they may be. Of course > > most of us played these records to death in their pre-Rhino forms, so > > we're a lousy control group. > >You can't just blame Rhino - the very first IODOT CD (on Midnight or >Glass Fish or whatever) put the original bonus tracks in the middle, >and there they've remained. This seemed to be a minor fad in the >early days of CD reissues -- many of you might recall the original c. >1986-87 XTC CDs, which did the same thing. For instance, on BLACK SEA >you got "Don't Lose Your Temper" and "The Somnambulist" right before >"Towers of London." This wasn't addressed until the most recent run >of XTC reissues, where they were at last moved to the end of the CDs. > >later, > >Miles, >now fondly remembering the suitcase full of CDs >he brought back from London in '87, many of which >were those original XTC and Robyn discs ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 22:31:03 -0500 From: Barbara Soutar Subject: Re: the all-American Rapture, Ann Coulter Jeff rejects my contention that the whole Rapture "doctrine" is a Republican ploy to manipulate American Christians. saying: "It originated, as far as I can tell, in the usual fundamentalist, evangelical, or pentecostal churches (and longer ago than the late '70s" It apparently was invented 200 years ago in Scotland, but didn't get much interest until people like Hal Lindsay picked up the ball and ran with it. The magical year 2000 has been exploited for political reasons in the States. (Not in Canada as far as I can see.) It became an official doctrine of certain protestant churches. Many people in your government have fallen for it, or at least pretend to have fallen for it. Unfortunately the expectation of the end-times coming has not only made invading the Middle East a priority for the Evangelicals, it has twisted environmental policy in the United States. Words from Bill Moyers: "Remember James Watt, President Reagan's first Secretary of the Interior? My favorite online environmental journal, the ever engaging Grist, reminded us recently of how James Watt told the U.S. Congress that protecting natural resources was unimportant in light of the imminent return of Jesus Christ. In public testimony he said, 'after the last tree is felled, Christ will come back.' Beltway elites snickered. The press corps didn't know what he was talking about. But James Watt was serious. So were his compatriots out across the country. They are the people who believe the Bible is literally true - one-third of the American electorate, if a recent Gallup poll is accurate. In this past election several million good and decent citizens went to the polls believing in the rapture index. That's right - the rapture index. Google it and you will find that the best-selling books in America today are the twelve volumes of the left-behind series written by the Christian fundamentalist and religious right warrior, Timothy LaHaye. These true believers subscribe to a fantastical theology concocted in the 19th century by a couple of immigrant preachers who took disparate passages from the Bible and wove them into a narrative that has captivated the imagination of millions of Americans. Its outline is rather simple, if bizarre (the British writer George Monbiot recently did a brilliant dissection of it and I am indebted to him for adding to my own understanding): once Israel has occupied the rest of its 'biblical lands,' legions of the anti-Christ will attack it, triggering a final showdown in the valley of Armageddon. As the Jews who have not been converted are burned, the messiah will return for the rapture. True believers will be lifted out of their clothes and transported to heaven, where, seated next to the right hand of God, they will watch their political and religious opponents suffer plagues of boils, sores, locusts, and frogs during the several years of tribulation that follow. I'm not making this up. Like Monbiot, I've read the literature. I've reported on these people, following some of them from Texas to the West Bank. They are sincere, serious, and polite as they tell you they feel called to help bring the rapture on as fulfillment of biblical prophecy. That's why they have declared solidarity with Israel and the Jewish settlements and backed up their support with money and volunteers. It's why the invasion of Iraq for them was a warm-up act, predicted in the Book of Revelation where four angels 'which are bound in the great river Euphrates will be released to slay the third part of man.' A war with Islam in the Middle East is not something to be feared but welcomed - an essential conflagration on the road to redemption. The last time I Googled it, the rapture index stood at 144-just one point below the critical threshold when the whole thing will blow, the son of God will return, the righteous will enter heaven, and sinners will be condemned to eternal hellfire. So what does this mean for public policy and the environment? Go to Grist to read a remarkable work of reporting by the journalist, Glenn Scherer - 'the road to environmental apocalypse. Read it and you will see how millions of Christian fundamentalists may believe that environmental destruction is not only to be disregarded but actually welcomed - even hastened - as a sign of the coming apocalypse." ...excerpt taken from his speech on receiving Harvard Medical School's Global Environment Citizen Award Barbara Soutar Victoria, BC ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V14 #74 *******************************