From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V14 #41 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Wednesday, February 16 2005 Volume 14 : Number 041 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Just found this on the Web [Eb ] Re: Just found this on the Web [Jeff ] Re: Just found this on the Web [Jeff ] Re: "Language is a Virus from Outer Space" [Benjamin Lukoff ] Re: "Language is a Virus from Outer Space" ["Lauren" ] RE: reap ["Bachman, Michael" ] Re: Just found this on the Web [Aaron Mandel ] Hey everybody! Cough, cough... [Rex Broome ] Re: Just found this on the Web [Jeff ] Re: Comic book Guy [Rex Broome ] Re: "Language is a Virus from Outer Space" [Rex Broome ] Re: Religion 101 [The Great Quail ] On this Day in Rush history... [The Great Quail ] Re: Religion 101 [Dolph Chaney ] Re: On this Day in Rush history... [Eb ] Re: On this Day in Rush history... [Rex Broome ] Feb 15 in history [Eb ] catching up on this day in Rush history... ["michael wells" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:40:42 -0800 From: Eb Subject: Re: Just found this on the Web > As always, the value of each vote has been increased by .01 as a > tiebreaker, so a score of 22.08 means that eight people voted for Green > Day, with a total of 22 points on those votes. > > Close race this year! Morrissey racked up an average of 4.16 points per > vote received, meaning that the people who liked his record liked it a > LOT. This isn't the highest ratio since I started running the poll > (that > would be Tori Amos in 2002 with 4.2 or the New Pornographers in 2001 > with > a terrifying 4.5). Good grief. Sounds like some extreme math-geekery is afoot. But...on a Loud Family list? Ahhh, right, now I get it. ;) > 9/ Statuesque - Choir Above Fire Below (23.07 points) > 14/ Shalini - Metal Corner (16.04 points) > 25/ Now It's Overhead - Fall Back Open (10.03 points) > 27/ Beauty Pill - The Unsustainable Lifestyle (10.02 points) > 27/ Amy X Neuburg - Residue (10.02 points) > 31/ John Sharples - I Can Explain Everything (8.04 points) > 39/ Doug Gillard - Salamander (6.03 points) Never heard of any of these. What's their "angle" to the Loud Family mentality, such that they would pop up so high on the list? Eb ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 21:51:40 -0600 From: Jeff Subject: Re: Just found this on the Web On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 14:51:42 -0800, Eb wrote: > You think picking a Todd Rundgren disc goes against the pop-cult ethic? Well, on the one hand, with "I Saw the Light" and "Couldn't I Just Tell You" and "Hello It's Me" etc., Todd could claim nearly to have invented the form...but then there's stuff like "A Treatise on Cosmik Fire," that awful Broadway-style live-in-studio thing he did 10-15 years ago, and...as far as I can tell,nearly everything he's done for the last decade or so: rather not pop. > I'm sure you would be disappointed at what you'd find, if you > researched those folks further. ;) \ Why I'm not on Audities! - -- ...Jeff The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 23:14:35 -0600 From: Jeff Subject: Re: Just found this on the Web On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:40:42 -0800, Eb wrote: > > As always, the value of each vote has been increased by .01 as a > > tiebreaker, so a score of 22.08 means that eight people voted for Green > > Day, with a total of 22 points on those votes. > > > > Close race this year! Morrissey racked up an average of 4.16 points per > > vote received, meaning that the people who liked his record liked it a > > LOT. This isn't the highest ratio since I started running the poll > > (that > > would be Tori Amos in 2002 with 4.2 or the New Pornographers in 2001 > > with > > a terrifying 4.5). > > Good grief. Sounds like some extreme math-geekery is afoot. That's what happens when an actual mathematician is doing math... > > 9/ Statuesque - Choir Above Fire Below (23.07 points) > > 14/ Shalini - Metal Corner (16.04 points) > > 25/ Now It's Overhead - Fall Back Open (10.03 points) > > 27/ Beauty Pill - The Unsustainable Lifestyle (10.02 points) > > 27/ Amy X Neuburg - Residue (10.02 points) > > 31/ John Sharples - I Can Explain Everything (8.04 points) > > 39/ Doug Gillard - Salamander (6.03 points) > > Never heard of any of these. What's their "angle" to the Loud Family > mentality, such that they would pop up so high on the list? Statuesque = Stephen Manning, British songwriter, careful lo-ish-fi arrangements, clever lyrics - I think he'd appeal to lots of folks here. Championed by several Loudfans...including two who run a small Bay Area label which did the US release for this one: http://www.125records.com. Shalini - Mitch Easter's partner (musical & otherwise), Mitch plays guitar. Harder rock than her previous stuff, includes Cheap Trick cover. Oh - and Sc*tt M*ller's ex-wife... Now It's Overhead - no particular connection - atmospheric moody pop stuff; some folks have compared them to R.E.M. (early) if they'[d started up in the late '90s. Good stuff. Beauty Pill, Amy X. Neuberg - ?? Sharples - almost the drummer for LF; Brooklyn musician who's played w/Matt Keating, etc. Covers album (motto: what would Ringo do?) since he's not a songwriter. Plays guitar (well) and sings (effectively), songs by Keating, Monkees, Flamin' Groovies, Jules Verdone, and a couple of talented Loudlisters Bradley Skaught & Paula Carino. Sharples used to be on the LF list; is a good friend of mine, in fact (although I didn't vote for this album: it's solid, but a bit '70s rockin' for me). See www.johnsharples.com for a brilliant Dylan album cover parody (and hits to what sounds influenced him). Gillard - last GBV guitarist, ex-Cobra Verde. A very, very fine guitarist, clean & well-modulated. What I've heard of his songwriting is pretty good too. List connection: I believe his gf is a woman who used to be on the list - but I think most folks got to him via the GBV connection. So there ya have it. Of the five acts I've heard of, three have direct connections to the list. Then again, of those five acts, I've heard all of them except Gillard (which I think I'd like), and they're all fine albums. I have some reservations about the Shalini release, however: her voice is too weak for the style, methinks. - -- ...Jeff The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 22:37:33 -0800 (PST) From: Benjamin Lukoff Subject: Re: "Language is a Virus from Outer Space" On Mon, 14 Feb 2005, Lauren Elizabeth wrote: re 'faggy' > Perhaps I should have said 'gay', but I don't know that that is any > more PC. No less natural, no more PC. > This kind of stuff actually interests me in the sense that I find it strange > that the point of civilization or at least education seems to be to teach > children up to adults to categorize, classify, and draw finer and finer > distinctions, but at the same time, at least here in the U.S., more and > more, folks get up in arms by use of language that categorizes things in any > kind of way that is not fashionable. Of course, there absolutely *is* That's what the point of education *should* be, but in many cases that's absolutely not what happens. At least it's there as an ideal. > Language itself seems streamlined to accommodate the process of > categorization which is not that far from stereotyping. Language loves a Some fascinating books on the subject of categorization in language: Linguistic Categorization (John Taylor), http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0199266646/ Women, Fire, and Dangerous Things (George Lakoff), http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0226468046 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 21:29:31 +1300 From: James Dignan Subject: Re: Richard Thompson > It seems to me that, stylistically, they'd have a lot in > common - and I think hearing them both play guitar > (Hitchcock's quite an underrated guitar player, I think > - not quite in RT's league, but who is?) would be really > cool. It's kinda mysterious that it's (apparently) never > happened - perhaps they despise one another or sumpin... >It's probably not that -- Robyn's played "Withered and >Died" and ... ...also "Calvary Cross". And good friends the REM guys did a great version (IMHO) of "Wall of Death" on a tribute album a few years back. Stylistically, they both have the same influences. There's a lot of Jansch and Renbourn in both of them's styles, to start with. James - -- James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.- =-.-=-.-=-.- You talk to me as if from a distance .-=-.-=-.-=-. -=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time .-=- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 03:39:14 -0500 From: "Lauren" Subject: Re: "Language is a Virus from Outer Space" - ----- Original Message ----- Jeff says: > Well, the meaning of language *does* change depending who's saying it. > That may or may not be "fair" or "reasonable" or anything else - but > it's certainly true. The example might be clarified if, for example, > you imagine that a gay man had joined the list the very day you sent > that post. He wouldn't know you at all - and might well assume that > using "faggy" as a negative term reflected, on your part, negative > attitudes toward gay men. (And it's pretty hard to come up with a > usage of "faggy" in the way you used it that doesn't somehow come back > to *someone's* - if not yours - negative attitude toward gay men.) > > However, if instead, someone else had posted, and in the course of the > post made clear that he himself was a gay man, and then he used the > word "faggy" - people might still object (just as plenty of blacks > object to blacks using the word "nigger" amongst themselves) but it > would be clear that he was not using the term to denigrate gay men. > And that, sadly, wouldn't have been true with your usage, no matter > how nice you'd seemed up to that point ;) I understand your meaning, and perhaps I am being naive, but I tend to give folks the benefit of the doubt on these kind of things, and (again, perhaps naive) Hitchcock fans would get the benefit because (more generalizing...) I just wouldn't tend to imagine their being racist or homophobic. Although Robyn himself might have taken me aback as my first album of his was 'Element of Light'...is 'Ted, Woody, and Junior' on Side 1 or 2? I think figured it was an "English" thing and not his being homophobic. Part of this is that I think if one wants to look for racism or homophobia, it will be found. It's a really hard thing for me to get at just writing like this and not e.g. being able to sit down and have an actual conversation about it - I feel like my thoughts about it are still in the process of forming, but basically, I think that if one is inclined to divide the world up into say, homophobics and non-homophobics, the world becomes a different place. My own experience having to do with this is from being female (and I'm not comparing this to being homosexual, but it's all I've got...) I was a complete tomboy when I was young - plastic dinosaurs, trips to the planatarium, Star Trek, all boy friends except one. My parents never batted an eye...they barely mentioned it. I was a left-handed, allergic to half of everything, and a tomboy so took to math like crazy. For college I went to school where the ratio of men to women was something like seven to one and...studied more math. Since then, I've always worked on a staff where there's more men than women - the technical staff where I work has for years been all guys except myself. And I can pretty much say that I have never felt any sexism (other than like common construction-worker stuff which seems like typical being-in-public rather than sexism to me now that I'm mentioning it) towards me. Someone could say that I'm just not noticing it, and maybe it would be true, but it's just not the way I see it. I've always felt like I've been treated with respect by both men and women (although it's a bit dicier with women since I'm just not as accustomed...) But in the last few years I've started to wonder whether this is tied into the fact that I was never taught to pay much mind to male and female roles in the world. What I'm trying to get at (with too little time to get at it, so apologies for the broad brush on this) is that I'm starting to think that never being socialized to be on the lookout for being treated differently made me not divide the world into male and female, and somehow things from where I sit have been the better for it (N.B. it's not lost on me that there are other factors such as my being fortunate enough to be able shelter myself from a fair amount of the crap out there by e.g. being afforded a good education and such...) Hopefully I'll end up finding a better way to express this because I feel like I've pretty much only taken a stab at it, and for me it's actually something worth getting at. I know that whatever it is, it somehow involves sitting the fence between a state of obliviousness and a state of grace... > I don't think it's the categorization that offends; it's the > negativity. You'd have to work hard to construct a sentence in which > "faggy" describes something positively, and does so in terms of > evoking general ideas of gay men, *and* that isn't doing both of those > things solely through contextual irony. Ouch, it's late, so that last sentence fragment hurts my head, but I'll try to keep up with your meaning. I'm assuming it exempts 'South Park'? Benjamin says: > Some fascinating books on the subject of categorization in language: > > Linguistic Categorization (John Taylor), > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0199266646/ > > Women, Fire, and Dangerous Things (George Lakoff), > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0226468046 Wow, that is the stuff. The second one especially looks very readable and interesting. The queue grows... Eb says: > Good grief. Sounds like some extreme math-geekery is afoot. You make it sound like this is a negative? xo Lauren (clearly over today's quota for both words and typos) - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---------------------------------------------- "I hate all music. Except 'Roadrunner' by The Modern Lovers." - John Lydon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:51:54 +0100 From: Sebastian Hagedorn Subject: Re: "Language is a Virus from Outer Space" - --On 14. Februar 2005 22:37:33 Uhr -0800 Benjamin Lukoff wrote: > Some fascinating books on the subject of categorization in language: > > Women, Fire, and Dangerous Things (George Lakoff), > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0226468046 That one's also (in)famous for being misquoted as "Women, Fire, and other Dangerous Things" ;-) - -- Sebastian Hagedorn PGP key ID: 0x4D105B45 http://www.spinfo.uni-koeln.de/~hgd/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 01:15:25 -0800 (PST) From: Benjamin Lukoff Subject: Re: "Language is a Virus from Outer Space" On Tue, 15 Feb 2005, Lauren wrote: > Benjamin says: > > Some fascinating books on the subject of categorization in language: > > > > Linguistic Categorization (John Taylor), > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0199266646/ > > Women, Fire, and Dangerous Things (George Lakoff), > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0226468046 > > Wow, that is the stuff. The second one especially looks very readable and > interesting. The queue grows... Yep--the first one is really more for linguists; the second one is for both general and academic audiences. Another Lakoff book that's probably even better is "Metaphors We Live By" (not related to categorization per se, though now that I think about it, perhaps it is). http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0226468011/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 05:49:35 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Dwarf Subject: Re: Just found this on the Web Eb wrote: >> As always, the value of each vote has been increased by >> .01 as a tiebreaker, so a score of 22.08 means that >> eight people voted for Green Day, with a total of 22 >> points on those votes. [snip] > > Good grief. Sounds like some extreme math-geekery is > afoot. But...on a Loud Family list? Ahhh, right, now I > get it. ;) Just reaffirms how superior our failure to tabulate our lists is. ===== "I had naively believed all these many years that Americans genuinely believed in freedom of speech. [But I] discovered there that when you made an utterance that was remotely contrary to what the White House was saying, then they attacked you. For a South African the deja vu was frightening. They behaved exactly the same way that used to happen here [during apartheid]: vilifying those who are putting forward a slightly different view." -- Desmond Tutu Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:01:33 -0500 From: "Bachman, Michael" Subject: RE: reap > Jeff reaps: > > Louis Sutter, father of six NHL players Michael "I only miss hockey a wee bit...OK, a lot!" Wells came back with: > I saw this also, and felt it a touch ironic that someone who > had given so many decent and hard-working sons to the corrupt-as-fuck NHL > passed during an ugly work stoppage. At any given time it seemed like there was 117 > different Sutters on the ice around the league. "Hey, didja hear about Zeppo > Sutter? Just got called up to the third line in Edmonton, eh!" Around here > it was almost like Bill Wirtz was paying Mrs. Sutter directly for fresh > employees. It would be interesting to find out how many NHL franchises that were around during the Sutter brothers heyday that never had a Sutter on their roster. The NHL Players Association caved in and conceded the point to a salary cap of 52 million a team. The owners are at 40 million, so the last minute negotiations are on to bridge the 12 million dollar gap. I say it's 50-50 they have an agreement in the next day. Michael B. NP The Byrds - Farther Along ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:34:54 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: Just found this on the Web On Mon, 14 Feb 2005, Jeff wrote: > > Good grief. Sounds like some extreme math-geekery is afoot. > > That's what happens when an actual mathematician is doing math... Uh, I have terrible news for you guys-- a computer does all this stuff. > > > 25/ Now It's Overhead - Fall Back Open (10.03 points) I don't think this ended up making my list, but it is a solid record with some truly great songs. The best one is free from Saddle Creek's website: http://www.saddle-creek.com/sounds/NowItsOverhead_WaitInALine.mp3 > > > 27/ Beauty Pill - The Unsustainable Lifestyle (10.02 points) A pop band on Dischord! As you can see, this one was #1 for two people and not voted for by anyone else. So, maybe more obscure than you'd expect from its chart position. But I also like this album okay. a ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 08:38:38 -0800 From: Rex Broome Subject: Hey everybody! Cough, cough... Been out of commission with pnuemonia. I'm sure Eb has been delighted with the letup in my incessant posting, but alas for him I have survived and am slowly on the mend. - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:44:49 -0600 From: Jeff Subject: Re: Just found this on the Web On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:34:54 -0500 (EST), Aaron Mandel wrote: > On Mon, 14 Feb 2005, Jeff wrote: > > > > Good grief. Sounds like some extreme math-geekery is afoot. > > > > That's what happens when an actual mathematician is doing math... > > Uh, I have terrible news for you guys-- a computer does all this stuff. Yes, but it takes math geekery to program it, or know which application to use. I say, the accusation stands ;) We workers do not understand modern math. - -- ...Jeff The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:51:34 -0800 From: Rex Broome Subject: Re: Comic book Guy > My least favorite cameo is REM's. Nah, it was redeemed by Pete Buck getting ready to kick Homer(?)'s ass, only to be restrained by Stipe: "No, wait, Peter... that's not the R.E.M. way!" - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:46:29 -0800 From: Rex Broome Subject: Re: "Language is a Virus from Outer Space" Lauren: > I understand your meaning, and perhaps I am being naive, but I tend to give > folks the benefit of the doubt on these kind of things, and (again, perhaps > naive) Hitchcock fans would get the benefit because (more generalizing...) I > just wouldn't tend to imagine their being racist or homophobic. Well, I'm constantly surprised to find reactionary attitudes among fans of progressive artists, but there are usually other signifiers in their posts (crappy spelling, faulty reasoning, unprovoked aggression and a bizarre compulsion to foreground all three) of their obnoxiousness and since you've evinced none of them, count me among the few who understood your use of the word as basically innocent... the kind of thing that gets said by people with enough gay friends who use the term to be comfortable/forgetful about it when they feel comfortable in an apparently like-minded group. In other words, there but for fortune went non-homophobic I. Or perhaps I've just gone there afer all. Yikes. - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 11:42:04 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Dwarf Subject: Re: Religion 101 Jill Brand wrote: > This is where I turn when I have a question about pretty > much anything, so here goes. My ESL class (80% Asian) > read an article about religion in America, and one of the > students asked me why the KKK thinks of itself as an > organization protecting Christianity. Does anyone know > what biblical texts it refers back to to support its > claims? I know that there is something somewhere about > miscegenation, but where is it? For an ESL class, I'd just stick to the basics -- they think that because they are assholes. ===== "I had naively believed all these many years that Americans genuinely believed in freedom of speech. [But I] discovered there that when you made an utterance that was remotely contrary to what the White House was saying, then they attacked you. For a South African the deja vu was frightening. They behaved exactly the same way that used to happen here [during apartheid]: vilifying those who are putting forward a slightly different view." -- Desmond Tutu __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:09:29 -0500 From: The Great Quail Subject: Re: Religion 101 > Jill Brand wrote: >> This is where I turn when I have a question about pretty much anything, so >> here goes. My ESL class (80% Asian) read an article about religion in >> America, and one of the students asked me why the KKK thinks of itself as >> an organization protecting Christianity. Many KKK members subscribe to a religion loosely known as "Christian Identity." It's basically a born-again approach that blends Southern Baptist beliefs with some traditionally crazy apocalyptic stuff. http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_ident.htm Serving the Zionist Occupational Government since 1967, - --Quail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:28:08 -0500 From: The Great Quail Subject: On this Day in Rush history... "Fly By Night" was released thirty years ago, and "Moving Pictures" twenty-four years ago. - --Quail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:42:26 -0600 From: Dolph Chaney Subject: Re: Religion 101 Wow -- a name for the belief-system-environment in which I was raised! FINALLY!!! - ---- Original message ---- >Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:09:29 -0500 >From: The Great Quail >Subject: Re: Religion 101 >Many KKK members subscribe to a religion loosely known as "Christian >Identity." It's basically a born-again approach that blends Southern Baptist >beliefs with some traditionally crazy apocalyptic stuff. > >http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_ident.htm > >Serving the Zionist Occupational Government since 1967, > >--Quail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:27:49 -0800 From: Eb Subject: Re: On this Day in Rush history... > "Fly By Night" was released thirty years ago, and "Moving Pictures" > twenty-four years ago. > Any hope that they'll ever be recaptured? Eb ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:14:38 -0800 From: Rex Broome Subject: Re: On this Day in Rush history... > > "Fly By Night" was released thirty years ago, and "Moving Pictures" > > twenty-four years ago. On this day in Verlaine History, Tom smoked two packs of Dunhills and spent three hours tuning his Jazzmaster. It doesn't matter what year. - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:24:59 -0800 From: Eb Subject: Feb 15 in history Also, it's the birthday of composer John Adams, piano icon William Steinway and Zappa fan Matt Groening. Eb ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:56:23 -0800 From: "michael wells" Subject: catching up on this day in Rush history... James: re RT > Stylistically, they both have the same influences. There's a lot of Jansch and Renbourn in both of them's styles, to start with. Paging Daryl. We need an RT expert on this one. Quail: > "Fly By Night" was released thirty years ago, and "Moving Pictures" twenty-four years ago. Well observed, my good man. And Brian H., two more to pick up before you settle on an opinion. During their last go-around it occurred to me that I have seen their 10, 20 and 30th anniversary tours. And I thought they were old fogies in 1984. The list of people whose new music I've enjoyed for twenty years is awfully thin, come to think of it. Eb: > Any hope that they'll ever be recaptured? Fortunately not, though in other news Claudine Longet has accidentally shot Herman Maier. Michael "admittedly, I wouldn't mind hearing her sing 'Red Barchetta'" Wells ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 23:52:34 -0600 From: steve Subject: Ghibli films next week (OT) Disney is releasing 3 Studio Ghibli films on DVD next Tuesday. Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind Porco Rosso The Cat Returns If rumors hold true, Miyazaki's adaptation of Howl's Moving Castle will be released in June, probably on the art house circuit again. But there's no official word that they're even working on it. - - Steve __________ Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou - ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V14 #41 *******************************