From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V13 #315 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Thursday, November 4 2004 Volume 13 : Number 315 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: ...Unbelievable [Christopher Gross ] Re: ...Unbelievable ["Stewart C. Russell" ] Re: So it came to Ohio... [steve ] Re: ...Unbelievable (The Nightmare After the Election) [2and2makes5@comca] Re: ...Unbelievable [2fs ] Re: ...Unbelievable (The Nightmare After the Election) [2fs ] Re: and in other political news [Jeff Dwarf ] Robyn in the Minneapple, again! [bisontentacle ] Reap? [FSThomas ] Robyn in Minneapolis 11/3/2004 [Charles Gillett ] Un-Reap [FSThomas ] If you've finally given up all hope... [Jeff Dwarf ] Disaster ["Matt Sewell" ] RE: ...Unbelievable [Eb ] RE: Cat's Cradle election eve BiTorrent [Eb ] Re: ...Unbelievable [Aaron Mandel ] Re: So it came to Ohio... [Rex Broome ] Re: ...Unbelievable [Rex Broome ] Re: and in other political news [Jeff Dwarf ] RE: So it came to Ohio... [Dr John Halewood ] Re: Cat's Cradle election eve BiTorrent [Jon Lewis ] RE: ...Unbelievable (The Nightmare After the Election) ["Bachman, Michael] Re: ...Unbelievable (The Nightmare After the Election) [Jon Lewis ] Re: Cat's Cradle election eve BiTorrent [Rex Broome ] Re: ...Unbelievable (The Nightmare After the Election) [Rex Broome ] Re: ...Unbelievable [Benjamin Lukoff ] RE: ...Unbelievable ["Marc Alberts" ] various brief political replies [Christopher Gross ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:16:14 -0500 (EST) From: Christopher Gross Subject: Re: ...Unbelievable > > Well. Nader wasn't even a factor. Kills that argument. > > Nader so wasn't a factor, he almost came in fourth, behind the Libertarian > candidate, Michael Badnarik. I just looked up the numbers: Nader got about 395,000 votes this year, as opposed to about 2,883,000 last time. Apparently some of his supporters had second thoughts. (I'd add that Nader not being a factor in 2004 has no bearing on the argument about his effect in 2000.) - --Chris ______________________________________________________________________ Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog. chrisg@gwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 08:36:47 -0500 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: Re: ...Unbelievable Benjamin Lukoff wrote: > > Nader so wasn't a factor, he almost came in fourth, behind the Libertarian > candidate, Michael Badnarik. Gaah! Those bloody Libertarians, always wanting you to do what *you* want ... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:37:53 -0600 From: steve Subject: Re: So it came to Ohio... > Michael Bachman wrote: >> WTF were all those Bush voters in Ohio thinking with all >> themanufacturing jobs lost in the state the last 4 years? >> Were they intimidated by the "You will be damned in >> eternal hellfire if you vote for Kerry" message that the >> evangelicals were preaching? On Nov 4, 2004, at 7:43 AM, Jeff Dwarf wrote: > When push comes to shove, they were more afraid of Ellen > DeGeneres and the Pet Shop Boys than Osama bin Laden and > the Iranian "we endorsed W" government. But only slightly, as the "I'm afraid" vote came in just behind moral values (if you can believe the exit polls). Once again, I invite Fegs to sample the right wing Christian world view - - - - Steve __________ intolerant farad footpad crucify edwin backpack bangle myeline. spume lamarck thunderflower conrail collusion. phoebe. plz no more ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 15:38:01 +0000 From: 2and2makes5@comcast.net Subject: Re: ...Unbelievable (The Nightmare After the Election) > I'm waiting for Ashcroft and Ridge to declare "reality" a terrorist > concept, so that anyone inflicting unpleasant, upsetting facts upon > the public that might lead them to realize the idiots are in charge > will be shipped off to Gitmo pronto. The Bush Administration makes their own reality, as admitted by a senior Bush advisor--I think some of this was in someone's sig on this list. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality." He also calls the press (and basically all non-Bushy folks) people in the "reality-based community"-- those who "believe that solutions emerge from (the) judicious study of discernible reality." I'd say Asscroft and Ridge will more likely define "empiricism" as a terrorist concept. Now that Bush doesn't have to worry about getting chosen for a second term, he can pretty much do and say whatever he wants. I don't think he'll wait too long to try drilling in ANWR again, or (insert evil deed here). And of course his last act in '08 will be a full pardon for his cabinet and Cheney. Doom, doom, doomity-doom, doom... Jon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:48:52 -0600 From: 2fs Subject: Re: ...Unbelievable On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 08:36:47 -0500, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > Benjamin Lukoff wrote: > Gaah! Those bloody Libertarians, always wanting you to do what *you* > want ... The problem with most Libertarians is they somehow imagine greater dangers from an elected government than from unelected heads of corporations. The other problem is they don't recognize that most people want a role for government beyond being mega-cops (even though there's argument about what that role is). But as I've said a zillion times - if we had something like proportional representation and a more democratic voting system such as Instant Runoff Voting, then libertarians would (as they should) at least get their proportionate say in things, and see if more people might agree with them (or change the views of the party itself...which of course has certainly happened w/the two major parties historically). - -- ++Jeff++ The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:51:55 -0600 From: 2fs Subject: Re: ...Unbelievable (The Nightmare After the Election) On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 15:38:01 +0000, 2and2makes5@comcast.net > Now that Bush doesn't have to worry about getting chosen for a second term, he can pretty much do and say whatever he wants. I don't think he'll wait too long to try drilling in ANWR again, or (insert evil deed here). And of course his last act in '08 will be a full pardon for his cabinet and Cheney. I misread "ANWR" initially as "NWRA" - as in the Fall song ("the North will rise again"). I think in our case, the North missed its chance to let the South kick itself out of the country... - -- ++Jeff++ The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:00:35 -0500 (EST) From: Christopher Gross Subject: and in other political news CNN is reporting "sources" as saying that John Ashcroft may resign within two weeks. Before anyone starts celebrating, note that there is likely to be a vacancy on the Supreme Court soon.... - --Chris ______________________________________________________________________ Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog. chrisg@gwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:14:47 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Dwarf Subject: Re: and in other political news Christopher Gross wrote: > CNN is reporting "sources" as saying that John Ashcroft > may resign within two weeks. Before anyone starts > celebrating, note that there is likely to > be a vacancy on the Supreme Court soon.... True, but (A) Ashcroft supposedly has health problems and (B) especially after his turn as AG, he would never get confirmed as it would never get past a filibuster. Also, Bush needs to appoint a Latino/a Clarence Thomas so Scalia can have another token puppet. ===== "[The Bush administration] deceived us about the weapons of mass destruction, that's true. We were taken for a ride." -- President Aleksander Kwasniewski, Poland "I wonder, even when Kerry gets elected can Bush still be impeached? I would love [for] him to be humiliated after all he's done." -- Elvis Costello Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:45:11 -0500 From: bisontentacle Subject: Robyn in the Minneapple, again! - ----- Forwarded message from Jason Koffman ----- Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:29:03 -0600 From: "Jason Koffman" To: woj@fegmania.org Subject: Robyn in the Minneapple, again! X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=0.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 At last nights show in Minneapolis, Robyn said at the end of his set that he'd like to play at a coffeehouse for free after his in-store at Let It Be (tonight at 5pm). By the very end of the show, after Jonathan's set, an MC said that Robyn would be playing at the Kitty Cat Klub tomorrow (tonight, 11/4): http://kittycatklub.com/ They have a concert stage in the basement, but I assume that Robyn will be playing upstairs in the bar where they also have a stage. Expect the Bob tunes to roll out since he'll be playing in one of Dylan's old Dinkytown haunts. What a great show last night. Lots of weird energy from the election (obviously) and the closing of First Ave. Nice introductions from Steve McClellan (the soul of First Ave.). I'm sure others will cover it better, but some highlights for me were I Got The Hots, The Pres and The Man on friggin' piano, man! I seen 15+ Robyn shows and heard probably 50 more and I've only seen him play piano once in 1989 (The Man and Executioner). Only let downs were no Dylan and no duets with JoJo. Chinese Bones I Got The Hots For You The President Full Moon In My Soul English Girl (piano) The Man Who Invented Himself (piano) 1974 Dark Princess We're Gonna Live In The Trees Queen Elvis You Remind Me Of You (did he play this or was I dreaming??) I Something You Sleeping With Your Devil Mask He played one more song, but I can't remember what it was. Something newer and slow = my chance to wizz. - ----- End forwarded message ----- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 11:53:03 -0500 From: FSThomas Subject: Reap? Arafat. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:56:18 -0600 From: Charles Gillett Subject: Robyn in Minneapolis 11/3/2004 I'm far too lazy to write my own review, especially when I know someone else has already written one: http://www.howwastheshow.com/reviews-2004/robyn_hitchcock-11-03-04.html It was a good night. - -- Charles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 12:07:00 -0500 From: FSThomas Subject: Un-Reap FSThomas wrote: > Arafat. OK...the trustworthy French have said now that, indeed, he is not dead. Jumped the gun when I heard over c-span that he'd kicked it. http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041104/D8655TJ00.html PARIS (AP) - French doctors announced Thursday that Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, who is in intensive care at a French military hospital, is still alive. "The clinical situation of the first fews days following admission has become more complex," Christian Estripeau, head of communications for French military health services. "The state of health of the patient requires appropriate treatment that required his transfer on Wednesday afternoon of Nov. 3 to a unit adapted to his pathology," Estripeau said. "Mr. Arafat is not dead," he said, concluding the brief statement. "This statement has been drafted out of respect for the discretion demanded by his wife," he said. The statement put to rest for now reports that Arafat has died. Israeli TV on Thursday cited sources as saying Arafat had died, but the Palestinian prime minister denied the report. Israeli TV's Channel Two cited Israeli security officials as saying they had been told by a reliable French source that Arafat had died. However, Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia said there has been no change in Arafat's condition. Palestinian officials said Arafat was in a coma in the intensive care unit of a French military hospital. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:09:32 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Dwarf Subject: If you've finally given up all hope... http://www.marryanamerican.ca/ ===== "[The Bush administration] deceived us about the weapons of mass destruction, that's true. We were taken for a ride." -- President Aleksander Kwasniewski, Poland "I wonder, even when Kerry gets elected can Bush still be impeached? I would love [for] him to be humiliated after all he's done." -- Elvis Costello __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 17:19:09 +0000 From: "Matt Sewell" Subject: Disaster Very scary interview on the radio this morning - with one of Bush's climate advisors who said, in all seriousness, that global warming was an EU plot to ruin US industry, and that all scientists who believe global warming is happening, and happening as a result of human activity, were either gullible or liars... It's just going to get worse - the Ghastly Old Party's victory is a disaster of global proportions... the thing that gets me is that this time the majority actually voted for him. Four more years of war on an illusion, indiscriminate bombing, lies over global warming, the rich getting richer, the poor poorer. I'd feel an English twang of smug superiority if our dear leader wasn't right (up the) behind (of) George II, your monkey king... Room for one more over in Canada? Cheers Matt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:59:28 -0800 From: Eb Subject: RE: ...Unbelievable Well, to be fair, he was on the ballot in far less states this time, wasn't he? Eb - -----Original Message----- I just looked up the numbers: Nader got about 395,000 votes this year, as opposed to about 2,883,000 last time. Apparently some of his supporters had second thoughts. (I'd add that Nader not being a factor in 2004 has no bearing on the argument about his effect in 2000.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:06:51 -0800 From: Eb Subject: RE: Cat's Cradle election eve BiTorrent Wow...wouldn't that be neat to have on tape? Reminds me of the time I saw Dweezil Zappa's band do something similar (opening for Spinal Tap). Except in their case, the fragments were all taken from classic-rock songs of the '70s. The medley must have gone on for close to a half-hour. Mindboggling. I had a friend in Miami named Larry Tucker, when I was five or six years old. I recall that he was closely related to the famous opera singer, Richard Tucker. PS Yahoo is saying Arafat is "clinically dead." Do we have a provision in the Reap by-laws for this? ;) Eb - -----Original Message----- From: owner-fegmaniax@smoe.org [mailto:owner-fegmaniax@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Larry Tucker Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 5:53 AM To: tapermaniax@smoe.org; fegmaniax@smoe.org Subject: RE: Cat's Cradle election eve BiTorrent He said Robyn only played for about 5 minutes but it was one continuous string of snippets from 20 or so songs strung together nearly seamlessly. He'd never seen anything quite like it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:24:02 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: ...Unbelievable On Thu, 4 Nov 2004, 2fs wrote: > The problem with most Libertarians is they somehow imagine greater > dangers from an elected government than from unelected heads of > corporations. I read a truly inspiring book once by Ellen Willis in which she laid out the case for a left-wing libertarianism that doesn't fall prey to this problem. (The book has the horrific title _Don't Think, Smile!_ based on her theory that the 90s, which were just ending at the time, had been a fool's paradise in many ways.) I gather that people tend to love Ellen Willis or hate her; while I don't always agree with her, I haven't read anything by her that didn't make me feel like I understood the world a tiny bit better. One of the book's drier chapters is here: http://prome.snu.ac.kr/~skkim/data/bookintro/files/willis.html Worth a read if you haven't run into her before, Jeff. a ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:32:04 -0800 From: Rex Broome Subject: Re: So it came to Ohio... Me & Stewart: > > When I hear the word "Democracy", I reach for my... > > Y'know, I always thought the singer was going to shoot the proponent of > democracy, not themselves. I always found it appropriately ambiguous. Mission of Burma's "That's When I Reach for My Revolver" (which I believe Moby later recorded as "That's When I Reach for My Chihuahua" or something) is based on the same original quote, and I forget both who first said it or which weapon was specified... anyway, the revolver seems more suicidal and the shotgun more militia-militant, but I guess it's up to the listener in either case. "The President" fits W. even more snugly than it did Ronnie, don't you think? - -Rex - -- "Maybe baby election twelve who I really am!" - -Miranda Mellbye Broome ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:37:17 -0800 From: Rex Broome Subject: Re: ...Unbelievable Chris Gross: > I just looked up the numbers: Nader got about 395,000 votes this year, as > opposed to about 2,883,000 last time. Apparently some of his supporters > had second thoughts. (I'd add that Nader not being a factor in 2004 has > no bearing on the argument about his effect in 2000.) True, but all of us former Nader voters got scared into toeing the party line this time, and look what good it did us. The red states got redder. I fear America's going irrevocably Republican. The Dems should dismantle themselves and leave a vacuum for a legitimate opposition party. Seriously. They're over in their current form. Clearly the GOP could've beaten Kerry by an only slightly slimmer margin by fielding a bucket of pus. A literal bucket of pus, I mean. - -Rex - -- "Maybe baby election twelve who I really am!" - -Miranda Mellbye Broome ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:38:15 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Dwarf Subject: Re: and in other political news Also: Arlen Specter is already warning Bush about Judicial nominees that are too far-right. http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/politics/2883040 Jeff Dwarf wrote: > Christopher Gross wrote: > > CNN is reporting "sources" as saying that John Ashcroft > > may resign within two weeks. Before anyone starts > > celebrating, note that there is likely to > > be a vacancy on the Supreme Court soon.... > > True, but (A) Ashcroft supposedly has health problems and > (B) especially after his turn as AG, he would never get > confirmed as it would never get past a filibuster. Also, > Bush needs to appoint a Latino/a Clarence Thomas so > Scalia > can have another token puppet. > > > ===== > "[The Bush administration] deceived us about the weapons > of mass destruction, that's true. We were taken for a > ride." > -- President Aleksander Kwasniewski, Poland > > "I wonder, even when Kerry gets elected can Bush still be > impeached? I would love [for] him to be humiliated after > all he's done." > -- Elvis Costello > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection > around > http://mail.yahoo.com > ===== "[The Bush administration] deceived us about the weapons of mass destruction, that's true. We were taken for a ride." -- President Aleksander Kwasniewski, Poland "I wonder, even when Kerry gets elected can Bush still be impeached? I would love [for] him to be humiliated after all he's done." -- Elvis Costello __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:45:38 -0000 From: Dr John Halewood Subject: RE: So it came to Ohio... Rex muttered: > > > When I hear the word "Democracy", I reach for my... > and I forget both who first said it or which > weapon was specified... anyway, the revolver seems more suicidal and > the shotgun more militia-militant, but I guess it's up to the listener > in either case. The original quote is from Goebbels: "When I hear the word culture, I reach for my revolver", but it's been twisted around in a number of different ways since. cheers john ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:56:28 -0500 From: Jon Lewis Subject: Re: Cat's Cradle election eve BiTorrent On Thursday, November 4, 2004, at 08:52 AM, Larry Tucker wrote: > > > I don't think I've mentioned this to all but evidently Robyn is touring > with only his acoustic guitar. For the Cradle show he borrowed a > Telecaster from the opening act, Erie Choir, played through a Vox amp > he > borrowed from local Chris Stamey who was in the audience. I talked with > the house soundman and he told me the soundcheck was really amazing and > that he wished he'd recorded it. He said Robyn only played for about 5 > minutes but it was one continuous string of snippets from 20 or so > songs > strung together nearly seamlessly. He'd never seen anything quite like > it. This is also what I heard while hanging around outside before the Sin-e show last week. He was soundchecking electric with a stream of 2 or so verses each of Raymond Chandler, Happiness Is A Warm Gun, Creeped Out and others. Oddly, the borrowed electric for that show was exactly like the familiar RH telecaster-- black body, white plate, blond neck. Eb: >Wow...wouldn't that be neat to have on tape? Reminds me of the time I >saw Dweezil Zappa's band do something similar (opening for Spinal Tap). >Except in their case, the fragments were all taken from classic-rock >songs of the '70s. The medley must have gone on for close to a >half-hour. Mindboggling. I can go you one better... at a Shadowy Men On A Shadowy Planet show in Seattle ten years ago, they played a song that was nothing but a relentless channel-surf of riffs from about 20 of the most cliched AOR classics. No more than 5 seconds per classic, transitions on a dime. It was insane. By the way, SPOOKED is now up on eMusic. Just the standard album-- no CDR bonus tracks. Myself, I already broke down and bought the corporeal edition a couple of weeks ago. Okay. Today's the day I learn to do Bitorrent, goddammit. Jon Lewis ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:00:03 -0500 From: "Bachman, Michael" Subject: RE: ...Unbelievable (The Nightmare After the Election) Jeff wrote: >I misread "ANWR" initially as "NWRA" - as in the Fall song ("the North >will rise again"). I think in our case, the North missed its chance to >let the South kick itself out of the country... Being a Civil War buff, I was thinking the same thing yesterday with all those red states in the southeast. If only Stonewall Jackson had been at Gettysburg..... Michael B. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:08:06 -0500 From: Jon Lewis Subject: Re: ...Unbelievable (The Nightmare After the Election) On Thursday, November 4, 2004, at 10:51 AM, 2fs wrote: > > I misread "ANWR" initially as "NWRA" - as in the Fall song ("the North > will rise again"). I think in our case, the North missed its chance to > let the South kick itself out of the country... > > Ha-- yes! Let NWRA be our sustaining mantra for the next 1,458 days! We'll maintain our mental hygiene with one listening of either the Grotesque or Part Of America Therein verson per day. Workdays will be endured with quiet humming of the immortal Hanley bassline. The North will fucking rise again. It has to. I'm proud of my home region of Minnesota, Wisconsin and Michigan coming through for Kerry, at least. Jon Lewis ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:16:51 -0500 From: "Bachman, Michael" Subject: RE: Disaster Matt wrote: >Very scary interview on the radio this morning - with one of Bush's >climate advisors who said, in all seriousness, that global warming was an >EU plot to ruin US industry, and that all scientists who believe global >warming is happening, and happening as a result of human activity, were >either gullible or liars... The seeds are already being planted. I have been seeing a commercial lately with a talking eagle who is thanking the coal power industry for cleaning up the skies. The eagle is shown in 1970 choking on polluted air. Then in modern times he is breathing clean air. Expect even more relaxed mercury standards for the coal fired power plants. Michael B. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:17:05 -0800 From: Rex Broome Subject: Re: Cat's Cradle election eve BiTorrent Jon: > I can go you one better... at a Shadowy Men On A Shadowy Planet show in > Seattle ten years ago, they played a song that was nothing but a > relentless channel-surf of riffs from about 20 of the most cliched AOR > classics. No more than 5 seconds per classic, transitions on a dime. > It was insane. There's a Soul Asylum 12" whose b-side is an astonishing live medley of... good god... everything. I remember specifically that it had "Waiting for the Man", "Birth School Work Death", and a Gang of Four song, but a lot of the rest of it was more standard issue classic rawk. Still pretty dizzying. At least 12 or so distinct tunes. - -Rex - -- "Maybe baby election twelve who I really am!" - -Miranda Mellbye Broome ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:32:07 -0800 From: Rex Broome Subject: Re: ...Unbelievable (The Nightmare After the Election) > > I misread "ANWR" initially as "NWRA" - as in the Fall song ("the North > > will rise again"). I think in our case, the North missed its chance to > > let the South kick itself out of the country... One other possible reading, for a sort of boring, defeatist gangsta rap group... Niggas Wit' Realistic Attitidudes. You know, I don't even really care what I'm saying any more. - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:33:27 -0800 From: Rex Broome Subject: Re: Disaster Michael B: > The seeds are already being planted. I have been seeing a commercial lately > with a talking eagle who is thanking the coal power industry for cleaning up > the skies. The eagle is shown in 1970 choking on polluted air. Then in modern > times he is breathing clean air. Expect even more relaxed mercury standards for > the coal fired power plants. I guess a talking swordfish will have to take point in spinning that as a good thing, huh? - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:43:57 -0800 (PST) From: Benjamin Lukoff Subject: Re: ...Unbelievable On Thu, 4 Nov 2004, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > Benjamin Lukoff wrote: > > > > Nader so wasn't a factor, he almost came in fourth, behind the Libertarian > > candidate, Michael Badnarik. > > Gaah! Those bloody Libertarians, always wanting you to do what *you* > want ... If only some of 'em would chill out maybe they'd be a viable third party. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:51:35 -0800 From: "Marc Alberts" Subject: RE: ...Unbelievable Aaron Mandel wrote: > On Thu, 4 Nov 2004, 2fs wrote: > > > The problem with most Libertarians is they somehow imagine greater > > dangers from an elected government than from unelected heads of > > corporations. > > I read a truly inspiring book once by Ellen Willis in which > she laid out the case for a left-wing libertarianism that > doesn't fall prey to this problem. Just a clarification--Willis isn't a libertarian, but a socialist libertarian, which is almost diametrically opposed with libertarianism on a variety of points. Traditional, rather than being related to minarchism like libertarianism is, socialist libertarianism has been more closely related to anarcho-syndiclism. In particular, they believe that capitalism is not only not necessary for freedom (a central tenet of libertarianism), but is actually impossible to reconcile with freedom because the existence of private property in and of itself leads to the creation of wealth, which allows exploitation. Libertarians reject the socialist libertarian's definition of freedom because of this, and the feeling is mutual. On the other hand, I think you're right that Jeff would like her work quite a bit. It definitely doesn't go into the kind of philosophical arguments that a Nozick or Hayek go into on the libertarian side. Marc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:54:07 -0500 (EST) From: Christopher Gross Subject: various brief political replies On Thu, 4 Nov 2004, Eb wrote: > Well, to be fair, he was on the ballot in far less states this time, > wasn't he? True -- I think he was on the ballot in 35 (?) states this year as opposed to 44 last time. But clearly the drop in his vote total is much greater than the drop in the number of states that had Nader on the ballot could account for. This will probably be visible in his individual state totals too. I know that in Florida his vote total dropped by about two-thirds from 2000. Rex & Stuart: > > > When I hear the word "Democracy", I reach for my... > > > > Y'know, I always thought the singer was going to shoot the proponent > > of democracy, not themselves. That's how I interpret it too. It's because the singer suspected the word democracy was being used as a cover for something nefarious, not because he was opposed to democracy itself, right? I accidentally deleted it, but I think Rex said that the Democrats should just disband right now after failing to stop W. And of course a lot of Republicans are crowing as if they won a huge landslide, though some of that may be sheer bluster. But while they lost, I really don't think the Democrats did too badly this year. Despite having an relatively uninspiring candidate running against an entrenched inumbent, a wartime president who shamelessly exploited post-9/11 trauma and ran an amazingly vicious campaign of character assassination abetted by a disgustingly complaisant media environment, they only lost the popular vote by 51% to 48%. That's a pretty close result in my book. (I know the map looks mostly red, but that's misleading -- microscopic blue state Rhode Island has more citizens than sprawling red states like Alaska, Montana and the Dakotas.) And Democratic losses in the Senate were largely due to the coincidence that a lot of Democratic incumbents in conservative states were retiring, and their net losses in the House were entirely due to Tom DeLay's sleazy redistricting of Texas. While the Democrats certainly need to change, I think they're far from hopeless. - --Chris ______________________________________________________________________ Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog. chrisg@gwu.edu ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V13 #315 ********************************