From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V13 #159 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Wednesday, June 2 2004 Volume 13 : Number 159 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: soccer moms ["Fortissimo" ] sax appeal [James Dignan ] wasn't that a Robbie Williams song? [James Dignan ] Re: soccer moms [Capuchin ] Re: soccer moms [Ken Weingold ] so that's what happened to him... [James Dignan ] Re: so that's what happened to him... [Capuchin ] Re: so that's what happened to him... ["Stewart C. Russell" ] Re: so that's what happened to him... [Tom Clark ] Re: so that's what happened to him... ["Fortissimo" ] Re: soccer moms ["Rex Broome" ] Re: Soccer Moms of the world unite ["Rex Broome" ] RE: REM in "not cool anymore" shocker ["Matt Sewell" Subject: Re: soccer moms Well, first, I accidentally sent my reply to the wrong list, because I'm an idiot, thereby allowing you all to reject completely what I say (if you don't already). All the same, a couple people responded to it, including Aaron, who's on this list as well (or was), so I'm responding to his response here, even though that isn't where it came from. Anyway: > On Sun, 30 May 2004 22:58:20 -0400 (EDT), "Jill Brand" > said: > > Natalie wrote (probably not trying to offend anyone on this list): > > > > "Seeing the soccer mom next to us FREAKING > > OUT to "It's the End of the World" was also rather entertaining...." > > > > There are leftists and centrists and somewhat rightists, there are > > straight people and gay people, there are metal fans and those with more > > Nick Drake sensibilities on this list. But there are also soccer moms. > > Or there is at least one. Me. My daughter was in a tournament this > > weekend and I went to four games. I also saw REM open for the English > > Beat somewhere around 1983. > > etc. > > But surely you recognize that the phrase "soccer mom" no longer merely > means "mom whose kids play soccer," right? I am assuming your entire > identity isn't tied up with shuttling your kids hither & yon in your > minivan, etc. - i.e., the fact that you're singing "UCPT" en route > *means* you're not what is meant by the phrase "soccer mom." > > Language is cruel: phrases go on ahead and mean things unliterally, and > inevitably end up stereotyping (because if it didn't, we'd need a new > word for every object, action, thought, etc.). On Mon, 31 May 2004 12:35:22 -0400 (EDT), "Aaron Mandel" said: > On Mon, 31 May 2004, Fortissimo wrote: > > > But surely you recognize ... > > I don't know, man, this sounds like the justification for a lot of > generalization-based insults -- like Ice-T explaining that "bitches" > doesn't refer to all women, just the bad ones. When you have a > categorical > dis like that, no matter how much you claim the insult (tautologically) > only applies to the people who have the negative qualities you're > imputing > to them, the fact that being in the category is a prerequisite for > getting > stuck with the tag erodes the distinction. I guess the distinction is that "soccer" in "soccer mom" appears to describe what kind of mom the phrase applies to - but really, the phrase has *always* been more specific than that. To generalize, a poor, African-American mother who rides a bus with her son to his soccer game has *never* been what the phrase referred to: there's always been a class component to it, and more to the point, a lifestyle component. It's imaginable that some misogynist would say, "all women are bitches." It's less imaginable (to me, at least) that someone would say "all moms whose kids play soccer are soccer moms" - i.e., are like the kind of person we imagine when we hear the phrase "soccer moms." I mean, at the very least, a minivan is required, right? It's like, I might style my hair in the morning, but that doesn't make me a "hairstylist," except in the most literal of definitions (which isn't the way the term is used). Still, I'd agree that the problem with such broad-brush phrases is that they tend to shove people into categories that those people don't feel comfortable being shoved into. - ------------------------------- ...Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com/ :: crumple zones:: :: harmful or fatal if swallowed :: :: small-craft warning :: ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 13:04:05 +1200 From: James Dignan Subject: sax appeal Sebastian wrote: >PS: I don't play anymore. When I started, I was into bands like Wham! and >Spandau Ballet. Then I discovered R.E.M., Velvet Underground, The Smiths >etc. and suddenly the saxophone didn't have a place in my life anymore. I >still have it, but I just take it out to look at it sometimes ;-) at this end of the planet youd've listened to Hunters and Collectors and kept playing! James - -- James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.- =-.-=-.-=-.- You talk to me as if from a distance .-=-.-=-.-=-. -=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time .-=- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 13:09:01 +1200 From: James Dignan Subject: wasn't that a Robbie Williams song? > > And yes, the millennium *did* begin in 2001. > >And the 1990s began in 1991, right? Same logic. I take it that if you were asked to count to 1000 you'd start by counting zero, get to 999 and then stop, then... decades and millennia use different rules. We've only been talking about decades in those terms since the 1920s - all previous decades have been 'backdated' by talking about things in the past. And it makes sense to group all years with the same first three numbers together for that reason. But we've been talkin about millennia for, erm, millennia. And there have only been three complete CE millennia so far - the first of them started in the year 1 because there wasn't a year 0. Similarly, the first millennium BCE goes back to 1000BCE. James - -- James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.- =-.-=-.-=-.- You talk to me as if from a distance .-=-.-=-.-=-. -=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time .-=- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 18:21:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: soccer moms On Mon, 31 May 2004, Fortissimo wrote: > I guess the distinction is that "soccer" in "soccer mom" appears to > describe what kind of mom the phrase applies to - but really, the phrase > has *always* been more specific than that. And I think anything but the most absurd and empty description of "soccer mom" would NOT include Jill. Pardon me, Jill, if this isn't true, but I get the impression that Jill really does live for these games and puts all kinds of effort into shuttling her daughter to the games and making a point of going to every one instead of just making sure her daughter gets to the game (in another mom's minivan, for example) with a clean jersey, tummy full of carbs, and durable shin guards. > To generalize, a poor, African-American mother who rides a bus with her > son to his soccer game has *never* been what the phrase referred to: > there's always been a class component to it, and more to the point, a > lifestyle component. I think it's pretty safe to say that Jill is firmly in the class and I have always gotten the impression that she's got the lifestyle, too. > It's less imaginable (to me, at least) that someone would say "all moms > whose kids play soccer are soccer moms" - i.e., are like the kind of > person we imagine when we hear the phrase "soccer moms." I mean, at the > very least, a minivan is required, right? Um, I think you could substitute either an SUV or a Subaru Legacy Outback wagon without loss of generality. > Still, I'd agree that the problem with such broad-brush phrases is that > they tend to shove people into categories that those people don't feel > comfortable being shoved into. The problem here wasn't so much calling Jill a soccer mom, but saying that if a soccer mom is into it, it is de facto uncool. And for the record, I don't think that's what gNat was saying in the first place. She just said she was kinda freaked out (or something) by watching the soccer mom spaz over It's The End Of The World As We Know It (And I Feel Fine). J. - -- _______________________________________________ Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 21:38:49 -0400 From: Ken Weingold Subject: Re: soccer moms For what it's worth, Dale Bozzio is basically a soccer mom these days. - -Ken ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 13:49:08 +1200 From: James Dignan Subject: so that's what happened to him... Whatever happened to... Thomas Dolby? James - -- James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.- =-.-=-.-=-.- You talk to me as if from a distance .-=-.-=-.-=-. -=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time .-=- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 18:58:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: so that's what happened to him... On Tue, 1 Jun 2004, James Dignan wrote: > Whatever happened to... Thomas Dolby? He played with The Soft Boys (and Young Fresh Fellows?) in San Francisco at the Fillmore a couple of years ago. That was pretty cool. J. - -- _______________________________________________ Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 22:16:51 -0400 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: Re: so that's what happened to him... James Dignan wrote: > Whatever happened to... Thomas Dolby? He's been peddling his Beatnik system for years. Let's hope it actually does something, though most phones I've seen have MP3 ringtone capability. Stewart ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 20:01:13 -0700 From: "Natalie Jane" Subject: soccer geeks There are also soccer >moms whose kids can sing Uncorrected Personality Traits in harmony on the >way to far-flung soccer games. I stand corrected. Change "soccer mom" to "extremely conservative-looking middle-aged stick-up-her-ass-lookin' hair-sprayed white lady." (My apologies.) I ranked 27-something on the Geek test... the thing is, you can't qualify anything. I've read Piers Anthony books, but I think he sucks. n. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Learn to simplify your finances and your life in Streamline Your Life from MSN Money. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 21:08:24 -0700 From: Tom Clark Subject: Re: so that's what happened to him... On May 31, 2004, at 6:58 PM, Capuchin wrote: > On Tue, 1 Jun 2004, James Dignan wrote: >> Whatever happened to... Thomas Dolby? > > He played with The Soft Boys (and Young Fresh Fellows?) in San > Francisco > at the Fillmore a couple of years ago. > > That was pretty cool. > > Yeah, that's him playing on "Evil Guy" on Side Three - from that show. He almost ran over my wife in his Saturn station wagon after the show when he buzzed around the corner to pick up Matthew. Then about a year later I saw him sitting in Starbucks in Palo Alto discussing something on his PowerBook with an associate. - -tc ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 09:38:25 -0500 From: "Fortissimo" Subject: Re: so that's what happened to him... On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 13:49:08 +1200, "James Dignan" said: > Whatever happened to... Thomas Dolby? > > I'm such a troglodyte, I still think phones are for calling people and receiving calls. Games? Images? Yeesh... - ------------------------------- ...Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com/ :: crumple zones:: :: harmful or fatal if swallowed :: :: small-craft warning :: ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 09:59:58 -0500 From: "Fortissimo" Subject: Re: wasn't that a Robbie Williams song? On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 13:09:01 +1200, "James Dignan" said: > > > And yes, the millennium *did* begin in 2001. > > > >And the 1990s began in 1991, right? Same logic. > > I take it that if you were asked to count to 1000 you'd start by > counting zero, get to 999 and then stop, then... No...but depending on what you're counting, you *do* sometimes start at zero, in a sense. If I'm asked to measure out 100 meters with a long tape measure, I begin at the zero mark of the measure - not at one. > decades and millennia use different rules. We've only been talking > about decades in those terms since the 1920s - all previous decades > have been 'backdated' by talking about things in the past. And it > makes sense to group all years with the same first three numbers > together for that reason. I'm not sure how relevant this is, or even if it's true, but...*now*, we talk about "decades" as beginning in the zero year of the relevant ten-designator: i.e., the 1990s began in 1990. There is, of course, a dispute similar to the millennium dispute (the same dispute, really) about what the first day of the twenty-first century is (1/1/00 vs. 1/1/01). But given these two facts, when did the first *decade* of the twenty-first century begin? If you say 1/1/00, that would imply that that year is part of 21c. But it sounds absurd to say that the first decade of 21c begins 1/1/10...esp. since that would mean the *last* decade of 20c is right now. > But we've been talkin about millennia for, erm, millennia. And there > have only been three complete CE millennia so far - the first of them > started in the year 1 because there wasn't a year 0. Similarly, the > first millennium BCE goes back to 1000BCE. Depends what meaning you place on "millennium." One meaning is, simply, "a period of 1000 years" - and so this year marks the millennial anniversary of 1004. No one cares, though. When we celebrate the new year, we're not celebrating the *anniversary* of any particular new year, such as the hypothetical* date Jan. 1, 1 CE, nor are we celebrating anything in particular that happened that day. We're celebrating the year itself. The thousandth such celebration* marked the onset of the second millennium. The two-thousandth such celebration (i.e., 1/1/2000) marked the beginning of the millennium we're in now. The significance for people (to whom it was significant) wasn't some hypothetical counting-up of years, beginning in 1 CE (even though no one living in that year called it that), it was (as I said), the lining-up of zeroes, the new number at the beginning of the four-digit year designator. No one celebrated (or feared) anything on 1/1/2001. And I'm pretty sure, although I haven't looked it up, that the doom-and-gloom prophesiers who feared the onset of the new millennium were spooked about 1/1/1000 - not 1/1/1001. What I'm really arguing is that words like "century" and "millennium" are cultural, not scientific, terms - and therefore have their meanings rooted in the way people actually use them (and yeah, for the same reason, I'd argue the century is properly regarded as having begun 1/1/00, not '01). It seems especially odd to me to insist on the "01" formulation...for several reasons. First, of course (and here's my asterisk) *no one in that year called it that, of course. Second, when the early church set the date of Christ's birth, and did so to coopt "pagan" solstice celebrations, they didn't set it right on the winter solstice, and I've always wondered why they didn't make things a hell of a lot simpler and move it forward a few days...so that it was Jan. 1. That way, the church could be happy to claim the year began the day Christ was born. (And it's a little weird that in the very first "anno domini" - year of our Lord - the Lord was conspicuously not born for all but a week or so of it, even according to the date the church set for that birth.) Finally, if we want to get all pedantic, there were, what, ten or eleven days excised from the calendar in the 1700s (actual year varied, depending where you lived), so if you want to call "millennium" the series of thousandth anniversaries of Jan. 1, 1 CE, you'd have to celebrate it on Jan. 11 or so. We accept that a year can be fewer than 365 days, to adjust the calendar (or more than, as in leap years) so why not make a similar "adjustment" in defining "millennium"? - ------------------------------- ...Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com/ :: Miracles are like meatballs, because nobody can exactly agree :: what they are made of, where they come from, or how often :: they should appear. :: --Lemony Snicket ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 11:34:32 EDT From: BLATZMAN@aol.com Subject: Soccer Moms of the world unite Well, I'm not a Soccer mom, but I have 2 kids... Well put Jill... Since I've started reading the list again, I've seen the same old judgemental stuff that drove me away in the first place. Whether it's condescending stuff about soccer moms... Jocks (hey, if you like sports you HAVE to be stupid, right?)... "Hipsters" who deserve to be mocked because of the way they dress... It's all the same.... You know, you don't even have to defend your hipness! There is nothing wrong with being a soccer mom. Nothing at all. Sounds fun, actually, and I can't wait for my kids to be old enough to play!!!!! Future Soccer Dad, Dave ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 10:18:22 -0700 From: "Rex.Broome" Subject: Blow your tuneless trumpet Eb: >>I have never been so brutally >>struck with the realization that it's not cool to be a R.E.M. fan >>anymore. Whew. Wakeup call. Well... it does beg the question, is it cool to be a "fan" of anything, ever? It strikes me that the audience you describe is the side of REM fandom that I just plumb forget about half the time... the ones whose crossover-interest-bands would include mostly REM knockoffs, as opposed to REM contemporaries/influences. I don't really think of REM alongside Counting Crows, Live, or Matchbox 20, but apparently a lot of people do, and apparently they have lighters and aren't afraid to use them. Jill: >>There are leftists and centrists and somewhat rightists, there are >>straight people and gay people, there are metal fans and those with more >>Nick Drake sensibilities on this list. But there are also soccer moms. Okay, who's the conservative gay metalhead on feg? I wanna party with YOU! Sebastian: >>PS: I don't play anymore. When I started, I was into bands like Wham! and >>Spandau Ballet. Then I discovered R.E.M., Velvet Underground, The Smiths >>etc. and suddenly the saxophone didn't have a place in my life anymore. I >>still have it, but I just take it out to look at it sometimes ;-) My old trumpet actually hangs on my wall along with the broken mandolins and sketchy tenor guitars and such. My daughter likes to look at it and knows what it is, and I figure it's cool to have some non-stringed instruments up there for variety (there's also a pair of wooden recorders from the wife's Ren-Faire days). I occasionally wonder if it's rehab-able or not... it's mighty tarnished and the valves are long since frozen in place. I just mention this because I think a similar triumvirate of bands ended my interest in the instrument... you can probably sub out the Smiths for the Housemartins (because they got by with nothing but clean rhythm guitar and that's all I could manage at the time)... but back then I thought Paul Heaton and Morrisey had kinda similar-sounding voices... anyhow... - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 10:44:43 -0700 From: "Rex Broome" Subject: Re: soccer moms Jeme: >And for the record, I don't think that's what gNat was saying in the first >place. She just said she was kinda freaked out (or something) by watching >the soccer mom spaz over It's The End Of The World As We Know It (And I >Feel Fine). Yeah, I latched more onto the particular *song* being referenced as a measure of uncoolness than the "soccer mom" label itself. Moderately interesting sidelight on REM as the world knows it (and feels fine)these days: my wife does these relatively easy crossword puzzles in the LA Times, and apparently "REM" is an answer every single week. The clue is inevitably either "Stipe's band" or "'The One I Love" group" (twice in the last three weeks). Now, I do seem to recall that song going to, like, #9 on the charts or something, but it kinda surprises me that it's still their crossword puzzle calling card, over their later, bigger hits. But hey... I'm not cool, so what do I know? - -R.E.X. Need a new email address that people can remember Check out the new EudoraMail at http://www.eudoramail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 10:53:07 -0700 From: "Rex Broome" Subject: Re: Soccer Moms of the world unite Blatzy: >There is nothing wrong >with being a soccer mom. Nothing at all. Sounds fun, actually, and I can't >wait for my kids to be old enough to play!!!!! > >Future Soccer Dad, >Dave FWIW, I'm probably headed there, too, and we already have the big white SUV baby-mobile (although it was bought used and is old and shitty-looking in an archly non-status-symbol way). I'm sure the girls will do the soccer thing... but I also consider my family to be under a sort of grandfather-clause here, since my wife was actually a soccer kid back in the '70's herself, so she probably would've had them play even if it hadn't become such a pervasive trend. Speaking of the '70's... I feel fairly confident they actually started in 1969 and pretty much ended halfway through '78. Seriously. - -Rex Need a new email address that people can remember Check out the new EudoraMail at http://www.eudoramail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 12:36:18 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: Soccer Moms of the world unite > Speaking of the '70's... I feel fairly confident they actually started > in 1969 and pretty much ended halfway through '78. Seriously. I've seen online nostalgists claim the '60s started with the Beatles' landing at JFK and ended with Watergate. ;) Eb ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 12:57:34 +0100 From: "Matt Sewell" Subject: RE: REM in "not cool anymore" shocker Nat, are you writing from 1992 or something?! This delay with stuff getting to my hotmail account is getting ridiculous, clearly... Cheers Matt >From: "Natalie Jane" > > >I have never been so brutally >struck with the realization that it's not >cool to be a R.E.M. fan > > >anymore. Whew. Wakeup call. > > > >Phew, I coulda told you that after seeing them last year... > >n. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Want to block unwanted pop-ups? Download the free MSN Toolbar now! ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V13 #159 ********************************