From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V13 #143 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Tuesday, May 18 2004 Volume 13 : Number 143 Today's Subjects: ----------------- war - what is it good for? It's good for arguments [grutness@surf4nix.com] Re: fegmaniax-digest V13 #141 [grutness@surf4nix.com] Perhaps Kerry's daughter is more electable? [Eb ] Re: kiosk of doom [grutness@surf4nix.com] Re: the moral high ground ["Stewart C. Russell" ] Re: the moral high ground [Capuchin ] Re: Moral High Ground [Barbara E Soutar ] Re: Kerry Schmerry [steve ] Re: Kerry Schmerry [Capuchin ] Re: Kerry Schmerry [steve ] A plug for my favorite blog (NR) [steve ] Re: Perhaps Kerry's daughter is more electable? ["Fortissimo" ] Re: fegmaniax-digest V13 #142 [Michael R Godwin ] Greg Shell vs ROTW ["Matt Sewell" ] RE: fegmaniax-digest V13 #135 ["FS Thomas" ] Re: Kerry Schmerry [Ken Weingold ] Re: Greg Shell vs ROTW [] Re: Greg Shell vs ROTW ["Fortissimo" ] REAP [Ken Weingold ] Re: Moral High Ground [] Re: Greg Shell vs ROTW ["Matt Sewell" ] Re: war - what is it good for? It's good for arguments [] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 12:05:50 +1200 From: grutness@surf4nix.com Subject: war - what is it good for? It's good for arguments Matt: >I can understand choosing the lesser of two evils - in some way it's >easy: would you lose a limb or your life? I would choose limb. Would I >shoot someone with explosives strapped to them before they reached their >target? Yes, I would. Would I shoot the person arranging the explosions >*before* they had carried anything out? I don't think so. In fact I'm >sure I wouldn't. I wouldn't want people shot for something they might do >in the future in my own country, so therefore wouldn't want it happening >anywhere else. > >Taking recent American strategy in Najaf (for example), this seems to be: >suspect someone of being an insurgent? Blow up their street with a >helicopter gunship. To me, that's stomach-churning cruelty. well, perhaps the US military have seen how well it's worked for Israel in keeping the Palestinians happy and peaceful. This is not to say that I regard either the Israelis or Palestinians as in the right or in the wrong, just that it is a stupid, stupid method of trying to quell rebellion. - --- Quail: >So, even though I disagree with a lot of what FS is saying, I applaud his >courage in saying it. This List can be very unkind to people who disagree >with the "voice of assent." Agreed. I disapprove of what... see Voltaire for details. >And to echo the feelings of a few other posters -- I was recently abroad in >Ireland. And yes, the anti-Americanism was rather pronounced. When I was >there in 1995, people generally loved us. Now it's quite different. Still, >over many conversations with people in pubs, I felt that most people did see >a difference between the American people and the current Administration. It >was occasionally difficult for me to identify myself as an American -- but I >still love this country, and I felt it was more important than ever to stick >to that identification, as it gave me the opportunity to explain that my >country was currently more divided than it's been since the Nixon >administration. AFAICT the situation in New Zealand is similar to that in Ireland - we tend to hate the US Government but not the US people, although the general impression is that a significant proportion of it are tainted by a flag-waving, holier-than-thou, "my country right or wrong" attitude. While there are, no doubt, a small proportion of Americans who are like that, they sadly tend to taint the image of the rest. >I only hope that we can change this country for the better in five months. >Although Kennedy had his own share of wickedness, he did once say, "I look >forward to an America that is not afraid of grace and beauty." It's a long >way off, but as far as I am concerned, our first step is getting this neocon >poison out of the body politic. > >- --Quail, who laments his previous faith in the Bush Administration despite >his knowing they were evil bastards; even though that faith was very tiny >indeed.... as with your comments about FS, I applaud your courage in admitting your change of views. - --- Greg: > >> if there is no democracy, is a revolution or coup the only way to remove >>> a failed government that is not willing to be removed? >> >>Um, any change in government structure is a revolution, so I don't >>understand your question. > >That is not correct. A structure is something made up of a number of pieces. >Pieces of structures are often changed, replaced or removed, but >that doesn't make >them revolutions or revolutionary if the overall form stays the same. from a purely grammatical point of view, you have missed the point. The subject here is "change", not "structure". What you are saying is the equivalent of saying "the saddle of a horse is not a quadruped". >Are you saying this because you think me or people like me don't know this? > >Why don't you give examples of where this has worked well. List >places or periods >where a repressive government has been overthrown or had it's >structure changed >dramatically by non-violent means to be followed by a significant >improvement in >the overall well being of the governed. South Africa and India are >examples that >could be used, but don't. things seem to be improving rapidly in Georgia. East Germany and Poland had remarkably bloodless coups, as did the Baltic states. > >If the governing body you would like to escape is brutal and violent, then >>you cannot revolt by being violent and brutal. This only assures that >>your rulers after the conflict will be violent and brutal and you have >>gained nothing. > >The American colonists were brutal and violent to the British. Do >you think that >the attitude of the US government today is a direct result of this violent >revolution? no, but what was the US Government's attitude to the native American races like for the first 50, 75, 100 years after independence? Did it have nice peaceful relations with its Mexican neighbours? Did it ruthlessly expand into the interior in those years? James - -- James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.- =-.-=-.-=-.- You talk to me as if from a distance .-=-.-=-.-=-. -=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time .-=- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 12:06:04 +1200 From: grutness@surf4nix.com Subject: Re: fegmaniax-digest V13 #141 Rex a dit: > >>Can anyone here offer me any opinions on The Bees? > >If I'm to remember correctly (and that's not been my strong suit >lately), there are two Bess(es) from approximately the same period, >and the one I know is responsible for the truly bizarre psych single >"Voices Green and Purple" (which appears on the Nuggets I box) and >not much else. Meanwhile I'm still sorting out the differences >between the two Kaleidoscopes... The one I'm referring to is a current band - has been around for a couple of years. So I doubt it's either of the ones you mention. James - -- James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.- =-.-=-.-=-.- You talk to me as if from a distance .-=-.-=-.-=-. -=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time .-=- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 17:19:49 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Perhaps Kerry's daughter is more electable? http://aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/story/0,2789,478904,00.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 12:25:21 +1200 From: grutness@surf4nix.com Subject: Re: kiosk of doom Greg: >They have reported for the period Aug 2 1999 through Aug 5 2000, that >2,508 Russian soldiers were killed in combat in Chechnya during that >single year. >Though Russia has officially reported 4280 dead since the last >Russian invasion >started in 1999 the actual number is believed to be at least three >times higher. >The number of civilian deaths is astronomical. The stories by all sorts of >independant sources of the atrocities including beatings, detentions and the >summary execution of huge numbers of civilians makes Iraq look like an Italian >wedding. Why do these facts always seem to slip past without raising >even a wisp >of interest or amazement? they aren't. The Chechnya struggle is in the news nearly as much as the Iraq debacle.The main difference is that Russia is fighting against a breakaway region within its own country. It's not as though they went and invaded a sovereign nation just because they didn't like its leader. The last time that happened was when the USSR invaded Afghanistan - and I seem to remember that hitting the headlines. A further difference is that Russia has never set itself up to be the country of highest moral standards that everyone else should aspire to being like. It's just a country. It may have those standards, but it doesn't keep banging on about them in the way the U.S. Government does. > > They have taken a turn for the better but only after years and years > > suffering from repression and exploitation. > >Nothing worthwhile is ever learned easily or quickly. You can't make it >hurt less, or else the lesson isn't learned. And the only way to make it >go faster is to increase the brutality. old Maori proverb: "No change is ever accomplished without sorrow". James - -- James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.- =-.-=-.-=-.- You talk to me as if from a distance .-=-.-=-.-=-. -=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time .-=- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 21:23:35 -0400 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: Re: the moral high ground Capuchin wrote: > > "Give me an example of a high quality, internally geared bicycle hub. > Shimano Nexus and Sturmy-Archer are examples that could be used, but > don't." um, Rohloff, and Sachs? Does this help? Stewart ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 18:38:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: the moral high ground On Mon, 17 May 2004, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > Capuchin wrote: > > "Give me an example of a high quality, internally geared bicycle hub. > > Shimano Nexus and Sturmy-Archer are examples that could be used, but > > don't." > > um, Rohloff, and Sachs? Does this help? OK, fine... then I'll say to Greg, "Poland and Slovenia". Sheesh. J. - -- _______________________________________________ Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 19:04:43 -0700 From: Barbara E Soutar Subject: Re: Moral High Ground g shell said: "The number of civilian deaths is astronomical [in Chechnya]. The stories by all sorts of independant sources of the atrocities including beatings, detentions and the summary execution of huge numbers of civilians makes Iraq look like an Italian wedding. Why do these facts always seem to slip past without raising even a wisp of interest or amazement?" Thanks to the American news media, you are unaware of the number of civilian deaths in Iraq which is astronomical. Independant people have been counting and it's over 10,000 innocent people at least. I have seen the photos that you haven't seen, the beheaded children and housewives of Iraq. Italian wedding? I think not. Your government with its "embedded journalists" has fooled you. Everyone else in the world is not fooled. So that's why our scorn is so huge. So please stop "taking an interest" in other countries, as you threaten. Barbara Soutar Victoria, British Columbia ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 22:36:03 -0500 From: steve Subject: Re: Kerry Schmerry On May 17, 2004, at 10:54 AM, Bachman, Michael wrote: > US voters usually are around 48-52% turnout for Presidential elections > lately. It might dip down to mid 40% turnout this November. The average turnout of the voting-age population for the last 8 elections is 52.91. The low was 49.0 in 1996 (Clinton v Gore). There's no reason to think it will go below 50.0. On May 17, 2004, at 8:56 AM, Bachman, Michael wrote: > The approval rate for Bush is down to 42%. It's slipping dramatically > month by month. Close to 60% of the those polled believe the country is > heading in the wrong direction. These are bad numbers for an incumbent. Big-time loser numbers. If these numbers hold, Kerry need only prove that he is a plausible replacement for Bush. The place to do that would be in the debates. It's six months to the election, and things can change, but I wouldn't say I'd eat my shorts if Bush loses. The numbers - - - Steve __________ I for one, am convinced: I am switching my laptop to Mac OS X. And best of all, you don't have to be ashamed to go to a Linux guru meeting with Mac OS X, because it's just a UNIX with a very nice GUI." - Moshe Bar ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 20:47:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: Kerry Schmerry On Mon, 17 May 2004, steve wrote: > The low was 49.0 in 1996 (Clinton v Gore). Geez, I don't exactly recall how I came down in the Clinton v. Gore race, but you're the man with the numbers, so I'll just trust you. J. - -- _______________________________________________ Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 23:06:35 -0500 From: steve Subject: Re: Kerry Schmerry On May 17, 2004, at 10:47 PM, Capuchin wrote: > On Mon, 17 May 2004, steve wrote: >> The low was 49.0 in 1996 (Clinton v Gore). > > Geez, I don't exactly recall how I came down in the Clinton v. Gore > race, > but you're the man with the numbers, so I'll just trust you. Sorry, Clinton v Gore was 2000. So that would be Dole. Same number of letters. - - Steve __________ The United States is exploring the development of a 'space-bomber' which could destroy targets on the other side of the world within 30 minutes. - Ed Vulliamy, The Observer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 23:14:06 -0500 From: steve Subject: A plug for my favorite blog (NR) Take a look at the second entry down, an email from Josh Marshall's friend in Iraq. - - Steve __________ They tend to be people who are insecure and vain. They are frequently nervous about their marriages and uncomfortable about parenthood. They often lack confidence in their driving skills. Above all, they are apt to be self-centered and self-absorbed, with little interest in their neighbors. - Keith Bradsher's summary of the auto industry's own marketing research about SUV buyers. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 23:17:58 -0500 From: "Fortissimo" Subject: Re: Perhaps Kerry's daughter is more electable? If it were my election, she'd have it. Now pretend you're Japanese and say that... (I am going to hell, I know.) On Mon, 17 May 2004 17:19:49 -0700, "Eb" said: > http://aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/story/0,2789,478904,00.html - ------------------------------- ...Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com/ :: Some days, you just can't get rid of a bomb :: --Batman ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 23:15:59 -0700 From: Barbara E Soutar Subject: Re: The Moral High Ground An American friend of mine, who has given up on the popular media wrote this description of the nightly newscasts there: "The never-ending babble that is designed to confuse rather than instruct , the insipid rancid brainlessness , the awful preponderance of charlatans and practiced deceivers pawned off as experts and authorities , the fear mongers , the unctuous apologists, the preening egotists, the unabashed corporate whoredom , the self-satisfied mediocrities screaming out the lie, everything based on a false premise, everyone agreeing to believe in what isn't there or agreeing to not acknowledge what is there, dishing out their swill with a slyly feigned sincerity and gravity, mocking the truth and all who would tell it, the entire evil potion wrapped in a glittering package like a witch's poisoned apple." Barbara Soutar Victoria, British Columbia ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 11:38:12 +0100 (BST) From: Michael R Godwin Subject: Re: fegmaniax-digest V13 #142 > As unpopular as it is, I've been listening to Groovy Decoy the last few > days and I must say, 52 Stations is just one of the best songs the guy > ever did. The lyrics are fantastic (though that "hid/hit" thing still > kind of bothers me). > "Most days > You'll find her in a heat haze > Looking through the sweet maze > That she calls her mind" > Woo-oo-oo, indeed. > J. Has anyone recorded these recent performances? Maybe it would clarify hid / hit". - - Mike "Mucky" Godwin n.p. Eddie Lang & Lonnie Johnson "A handful of riffs" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 12:19:22 +0100 From: "Matt Sewell" Subject: Greg Shell vs ROTW That's rather like a little boy who says "you play by *my* rules or I'm taking my ball home!" So, what you're saying is that us foreigners had better like Americans or we'll all be sorry... Greg, have you considered a job as a US diplomat? I really think you shouldn't..! Cheers Matt >From: > >I'm almost to the point where I think "so the fuck what?". Once Americans are >scorned enough we will stop showing interest in things foreign. Federal and >private funding for all things foreign will stop or dwindle to a trickle and the >rest of the world will once again be waiting in line to lick the bottoms of our >feet in order to win our favor while at the same time wondering how they can be >more like us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Want to block unwanted pop-ups? Download the free MSN Toolbar now! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 08:14:56 -0400 From: "FS Thomas" Subject: RE: fegmaniax-digest V13 #135 > From Capuchin > > Well, that's a small bit of evidence. The UN is allowing the > occupying force to control the money. So the folks that > start the war get the money. Yes, the UN. Under their Oil For Palaces program Saddam had squandered what oil revenues he had made. > OK, so long as we can keep the government there from > solidifying, we keep the money. Yep; provided we do that. The war-time deficit definitely is looking a little anemic, there, Jeme. It's really in our best interest to weaken that government in Iraq and keep those troops there for, what, another two years? Maybe five. Hell, let's clean out the DMZ in Korea and send *those* boys over to Iraq. Let's fatten that deficit because, you know, the oil revenues have entirely *paid* for the war! We're almost breaking even! Not. The revenue from the oil goes into accounts; those accounts pay for reconstruction/rebuilding of infrastructure. I'm done talking politics on this list; it is, as TGQ said, 'far too biased against reasonable political discussion.' There is precious little intelligent exchange and far too much gainsaying. I would sooner debate a braying mule in some cases. I will give you (or anyone) the last word. The topic will go unanswered. - -ferris. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 09:00:54 -0400 From: Ken Weingold Subject: Re: Kerry Schmerry On Mon, May 17, 2004, steve wrote: > These are bad numbers for an incumbent. Big-time loser numbers. If > these numbers hold, Kerry need only prove that he is a plausible > replacement for Bush. The place to do that would be in the debates. If there ARE any debates. > It's six months to the election, and things can change, but I wouldn't > say I'd eat my shorts if Bush loses. I'm considering moving back to Brazil if Bush wins. - -Ken ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 09:11:19 -0500 From: Subject: Re: Greg Shell vs ROTW [demime could not interpret encoding binary - treating as plain text] me against the rest of the world? that's a bit silly. besides, i have lovers. weren't you afraid that could make me feel like jesus or tesla? more like "vs. ROTG". but i wouldn't even go that far. On Tue, 18 May 2004 12:19 , Matt Sewell sent: >That's rather like a little boy who says "you play by *my* rules or I'm >taking my ball home!" I'd just give you the fucking ball and let you play your own damn game. It has taken europe more than 10,000 years to even start getting close to what we accomplished in the United States in less than 100 years. In question are some of the same archaic petty issues that may always stand in the way of complete unification. Grow up, unify, and maybe we'd listen better. >So, what you're saying is that us foreigners had better like Americans or >we'll all be sorry... No. What I was saying is most americans are at the point where we don't really care what you think of us. It is not worth the effort. If it comes to the point were the US and the EU are in direct odds, we'll stay here, you stay there. Wait, I shouldn't include the UK because of course you still are not part of the EU. Hell, if the US ever goes to war in Europe again to save them from themselves, we'll probably use you as a staging area, like before. Like I said in a previous note, the devastation wrought upon those in Chechnya, makes Iraq look like an arts festival. Most of the resentment you feel is a result of envy and jealousy because for instance, your country and most of the other big players have failed so often. Shit, you'd all be either heil hitlerin' or worshipping Stalin if it wasn't for us. That is a fact. And that was such a short time ago. How quickly Europe forgets about the things the Germans did and Stalin would have done. History repeats itself, like a midi sequence. Ross said "I lived in Europe during the first Gulf War. They hated our ass then, too. But it got to die down that time in a way that it can't now. I think a lot of the seeds of today's anti-Americanism were sown back then, but it seems way worse, possibly irreversible, now. Yikes." I was really responding to this, amusingly. Apparently nothing the Russians and Germans have ever done takes long to forget. That's the funny part. >Greg, have you considered a job as a US diplomat? I really think you >shouldn't..! There is a point at which diplomacy stops. gSs - ---- Msg sent via WebMail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 09:17:22 -0500 From: "Fortissimo" Subject: Re: Greg Shell vs ROTW On Tue, 18 May 2004 09:11:19 -0500, gshell@americangroupisp.com said: > It has > taken europe more than 10,000 years to even start getting close to what > we > accomplished in the United States in less than 100 years. And I suppose the US used none of that European accomplishment (even though I have no idea what you're talking about)? Remember that Isaac Newton line about standing on the shoulders of giants? Apparently, you think the giant is invisible. > No. What I was saying is most americans are at the point where we don't > really > care what you think of us. On behalf of myself as an American, I exclude myself from this statement. Greg Shell doesn't speak for me. - ------------------------------- ...Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com/ :: crumple zones:: :: harmful or fatal if swallowed :: :: small-craft warning :: ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 10:34:28 -0400 From: Ken Weingold Subject: REAP Tony Randall. 84. - -Ken ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 09:45:58 -0500 From: Subject: Re: Moral High Ground [demime could not interpret encoding binary - treating as plain text] On Mon, 17 May 2004 19:04 , Barbara E Soutar sent: >Thanks to the American news media, you are unaware of the number of civilian deaths in Iraq which is astronomical. Am I? Nice to know someone knows what's going on. You must have access to all the international "true" media sources that our government is blocking from us americans. man, good thing we got you informed canadians to let us know what's really going on. hell, if it wasn't for people like you, we'd have no idea. are you sending avi's of canadian news footage to other members of the list and not including me? > Independant people have been counting and it's over 10,000 innocent people at least. and they were all killed by americans. the death toll in chechnya, civilians and soldiers far exceeds the losses in Iraq. this is of course russia's second attempt. they are doing well, aren't they? > I have seen the photos that you haven't seen, the beheaded children and > housewives of Iraq. Of course you have. And these things were all done by done by americans, right? I mean only you would know what my eyes have seen. And things like that could occur in a war were the americans are involved. yeah, these kinds of things are just not normal during war and have probably never happened before. > Italian wedding? I think not. Your government with its "embedded journalists" > has fooled you. Fooled me into what? Maybe, thinking NPR is a good news source? > So please stop "taking an interest" in other countries, as you threaten. Are you asking me to change US foreign policy, or are you asking me to change my foreign policy? gSs - ---- Msg sent via WebMail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 16:03:50 +0100 From: "Matt Sewell" Subject: Re: Greg Shell vs ROTW Errrrm.... Riiiiiiiight.... Ooooooookaaaaay.... *backs away, not making any sudden movements* >From: >I'd just give you the fucking ball and let you play your own damn game. It has >taken europe more than 10,000 years to even start getting close to what we >accomplished in the United States in less than 100 years. In question are some >of the same archaic petty issues that may always stand in the way of complete >unification. Grow up, unify, and maybe we'd listen better. > > >So, what you're saying is that us foreigners had better like Americans or > >we'll all be sorry... > >No. What I was saying is most americans are at the point where we don't really >care what you think of us. It is not worth the effort >---- Msg sent via WebMail - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Want to block unwanted pop-ups? Download the free MSN Toolbar now! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 10:21:44 -0500 From: Subject: Re: war - what is it good for? It's good for arguments [demime could not interpret encoding binary - treating as plain text] ain't that the truth. On Tue, 18 May 2004 12:05 , grutness@surf4nix.com sent: >>That is not correct. A structure is something made up of a number of pieces. >>Pieces of structures are often changed, replaced or removed, but >>that doesn't make >>them revolutions or revolutionary if the overall form stays the same. > >from a purely grammatical point of view, you have missed the point. unlike jeme initially, of course. this was his arguement but I'm sure he'll thank you for answering for him. >things seem to be improving rapidly in Georgia. East Germany and >Poland had remarkably bloodless coups, as did the Baltic states. All of these I believe are simply the result of the failure of the entire soviet socialist system. One system fails, another replaces it. Are more people moving into these countries, or out? Fair examples of all the things russia did wrong, but what about the other casualites of the soviet system for example Ukraine, Latvia, Slovakia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Moldova, Belarus, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan for instance? These are all places the soviet union and much of the rest of the world just seems to have forgetten exist. And these are just a few. I could make a much longer list of countries and periods lasting centuries or more and costing millions of lives in which bloodless coups and revolutions haven't worked. >>The American colonists were brutal and violent to the British. Do >>you think that the attitude of the US government today is a direct result of >>this violent revolution? > >no, but what was the US Government's attitude to the native American >races like for the first 50, 75, 100 years after independence? about equal with most but not all other dominant european, african, asian attitudes towards the natives of any lands they were conquering. gSs - ---- Msg sent via WebMail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 10:21:50 -0500 From: "Brian Huddell" Subject: RE: Moral High Ground Barbara Soutar: > Thanks to the American news media, you are unaware of the > number of civilian deaths in Iraq which is astronomical. > Independant people have been counting and it's over 10,000 > innocent people at least. I have seen the photos that you > haven't seen, the beheaded children and housewives of Iraq. > Italian wedding? I think not. Your government with its > "embedded journalists" has fooled you. Everyone else in the > world is not fooled. I've got no interest in Shell vs. Soutar, but I can't let this insult stand. If you think, Barbara, that it is somehow *difficult* for Americans to find solid information about the war or anything else then you are hopelessly misinformed. You ignore journalists like the contributors to Znet and Common Dreams, not to mention mainstream writers like Krugman in the NY Times and Hersh in the New Yorker. You ignore the blogosphere. Greg has easy access to the same information you do, whether or not he avails himself of it or comes to the same conclusions that you and I might. Anybody who relies on the mainstream news media, Canadian, American, or otherwise, to develop their opinions deserves what they get. And the idea that Americans have restricted access to ideas and information that challenges Bush and the neocons is a lazy fantasy that you need to get over. +brian in New Orleans ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V13 #143 ********************************