From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V13 #22 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Thursday, January 22 2004 Volume 13 : Number 022 Today's Subjects: ----------------- For the love of god...! ["Brian" ] Re: Grieben, griveners, and Reading dope dealers [] RE: please unsubscribe..thanks ["Rex.Broome" ] Re: REAP [FSThomas ] reap [Eb ] Re: FW: more medi[a]eval movies [John McIntyre ] reap#2 (FINALLY!) [Eb ] Re: REAP ["cmb adams" ] Re: REAP [FSThomas ] Re: REAP ["cmb adams" ] Re: Medi(a)eval movies [grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan)] Re: REAP [grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan)] Re: REAP [Capuchin ] Re: Medi(a)eval movies [Miles Goosens ] RE: REAP ["Jason Brown \(Echo Services Inc\)" ] RE: REAP [Capuchin ] Re: REAP [Marcy Tanter ] Iraqotopia (WAS: Re: REAP) [Tom Clark ] RE: REAP ["Jason Brown \(Echo Services Inc\)" ] RE: REAP [Capuchin ] Re: Iraqotopia (WAS: Re: REAP) [Capuchin ] Re: Iraqotopia (WAS: Re: REAP) [Tom Clark ] addicts [Jill Brand ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 15:49:17 -0500 From: "Brian" Subject: For the love of god...! http://entertainment.msn.com/news/article.aspx?news=147231 - -- Brian nightshadecat@mailbolt.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 17:07:33 -0500 From: Subject: Re: Grieben, griveners, and Reading dope dealers [demime could not interpret encoding binary - treating as plain text] drug dealers are a result not a cause. that makes three things we agree on. and it is almost now but should be entirely controlled by the free market. that, we may not agree on. gSs On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 16:53 , Capuchin sent: >It doesn't take dealers to create drug problems, it takes users and users >are going to turn to something available, whether it's smack, ny-quil or >spinning around in the yard until they fall down. Drug dealers don't make >drug problems. - ---- Msg sent via WebMail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 13:22:02 -0800 From: Eb Subject: Re: FW: more medi[a]eval movies >>Coincidentally, I was trying to convert a stubborn, stubborn, stubborn >>friend to silent films just a couple of days ago, and found this link: >>http://www.silentera.com/info/top100.html A great list, I think, though >>I apparently didn't like Sunrise as much as I "should." And The Passion >>of Joan of Arc places very high on the list. > >Unfortunately I know neither, although I've seen 8 out of the top >20. Below that I've only seen a handful The only films in the top 20 I haven't seen are "Sherlock Jr." and (gasp!) "Birth of a Nation," and those have been on my must-see list for ages. I also really want to see "The Unknown." I've seen about 38 (?) films from the total list, so there's plenty of room for further education. >Where do you watch silent movies? Well, I saw some during college, because there were some great, free on-campus film series. I've rented some.... Also, the Turner Classic Movies channel shows silent films every Sunday night, and they show great stuff. Not the most obvious candidates, either. I find silent film fascinating. The purity, the naive ambition.... Eb ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 13:42:49 -0800 From: "Rex.Broome" Subject: RE: please unsubscribe..thanks Matt: >>Well, I didn't think my posts were that bad! Or does he mean *all* of >>us..? Yup. All of us. We need to take this party over to OldSchoolFegs if they'll have us. And then imagine how weirded out The Great Quail will be when he returns to find the party over, the oven still on and the beer bottles still lying around. JeFFrey: >>Okay, okay - so I have no idea how to have fun. Shoot me now. Me neither, so line me up as well. This is another potential way to thing the list's population, I guess. - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 15:56:07 -0700 From: "cmb adams" Subject: Re: REAP On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 11:06:57 -0500, FSThomas wrote > > The war on Iraq - 10,000+ Iraqis dead, the vast majority of that number > > being civilians... now, why isn't this evil? > > I honestly don't know about that number, and will concede that, > while it sounds high, may very well be true. > > While no one may ever know for sure, I wonder what was the cause of > these casualties. What statistical portion was caused by errant > munitions? Wrong-place-wrong-time? Being corralled around valid > military targets by your government? http://www.iraqbodycount.net/bodycount.htm they break it down by location, cause of death, and source. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 17:16:05 -0500 From: FSThomas Subject: Re: REAP > http://www.iraqbodycount.net/bodycount.htm > > they break it down by location, cause of death, > and source. Their numbers may be accurate, but the timbre of the site isn't. From the descriptive paragraph at the top of the page: "This is a human security project to establish an independent and comprehensive public database of media-reported civilian deaths in Iraq resulting directly from military actions by the USA and its allies in 2003." In quickly scanning the "weapon" used in the listed incidents, incredibly few of them can be directly linked to actions taken by coalition soldiers in the field. It seems by these numbers that it's not our military that is doing the majority of the killing, as they list "carbomb," "roadside bomb," and "grenade" (that killed 4 in a stall selling alcohol) among the most commonly used weapons. To the best of my knowledge, while our troops carry grenades, they don't stock carbombs. While they claim that "the Occupying Authority has a binding responsibility to prevent...civilian deaths resulting from the breakdown in law and order, and deaths due to inadequate health care or sanitation," bandying around a distorted statistic saying that the US has killed 10,000 Iraqis is wholly, criminally inaccurate. There simply has to be acknowledgment that the vast majority of these casualties are coming at the hands of insurgents and gorilla fighters. - -ferris. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 14:17:30 -0800 From: Eb Subject: reap Ann Miller, 81. I wonder what she looked like, under all that makeup? Eb ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 17:16:08 -0500 From: John McIntyre Subject: Re: FW: more medi[a]eval movies Eb wrote: > I used to have a gig providing live soundtracks for silent movies at a > local theater Wow! More details, please. The Odeon was a small movie theater in Lansing MI that at the time was owned by a real lover of movies who was living off his inheritance and therefore did not need to make a living off the theater. He mainly showed "art" films, frequently with subtitles. Some of the bigger titles shown were The Ice Storm and The Sweet Hereafter. The Odeon was also the only movie theater in town with a 16 mm projector, and Frank, the owner, would sometimes show older films with it. There was a United Artists chain theater in the same shopping center, and Frank took great pride that while that theater was celebrating United Artists 75th anniversary, he was the one showing the old United Artists films because they didn't have a 16 mm projector. One of the things he liked to do was show silent movies. So I asked him if he would like live music played while the movie was running, and he took me up on the offer. I played mostly for horror movies such as Cabinet of Dr Caligari and Nosferatu, but also for Buster Keaton's The General, three Rudolph Valentino pictures Blood and Sand, The Black Eagle, and The Cobra, and two Carl Dreyer pictures The Passion of Joan of Arc and Leaves From Satan's Book. I even played for several Westerns: Hell's Hinges, Tom Mix's Riders of the Purple Sage, and Rin Tin Tin's Clash of the Wolves. I had the honor of playing for the final film shown at the Odeon, Murnau's Faust. I would get ahold of a videotape of the movie beforehand and study it to get ideas, but I did not compose a strict score. Then the day of the showing, I'd set my gear up in front of the screen and play along as the movie ran. Most of the shows I played solo, but I had a guitarist with me for the double bill of Hell's Hinges and Riders of the Purple Sage as Frank had asked for more guitar for the Westerns, and a synth player helped me with Nosferatu, Metropolis, and Faust. The reasons for not composing a strict score were two-fold. First, Frank ran the films at sound speed (24 frames per second) while most videotapes used silent speed (22 frames per second), so any score written to the videotape would quickly get out of sync with the projected film. Second, there was no guarantee that the print Frank was showing would match the tape I'd been watching. Sometimes scenes might be switched around, sometimes a scene I'd prepared for was missing, and sometimes there was stuff on the screen I'd never seen before. Kept things interesting. (-8 Most of the time attendance was very sparse: a dozen people was a good turn-out. For the first performance of Hell's Hinges/Riders of the Purple Sage, absolutely no one showed up. Frank ran the film anyway, and we considered it a rehearsal. The film critic for the Lansing paper doesn't like silent movies, so there was rarely any mention of our showings except in the small ads that Frank could afford and in the handbills he'd post at the theater. We did get a good turn-out for a Halloween showing of Metropolis. It was my first performance with my new Theremin, and we used that as a hook to get the newspaper to run a short story about the upcoming performance. And the house was packed for the final showing of Faust. (The door prize that evening was won by the former owner of the theater.) And no, I didn't make much money off it. Originally Frank paid me with movie passes, but his wife is a musician, too, and she insisted I get paid something. Considering the attendance, Frank had to be paying me out of his own pocket. He was quite generous with his payment for Faust, but that was obviously for more than just that show. I do miss it. There were some bad movies. Frank had booked A Fool There Was thinking it was a vampire picture because it introduced the word "vamp" to the culture, but the vampirism was metaphorical only, and the soap opera was heavy. But even that one was worth doing. Thanks for asking, Eb. John McIntyre mcintyre@pa.msu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 14:22:41 -0800 From: Eb Subject: reap#2 (FINALLY!) http://et.tv.yahoo.com/movies/2004/01/22/benandjensplit/ ET has learned that BEN AFFLECK and JENNIFER LOPEZ are Bennifer no more. Today, a representative for Lopez told ET, "I am confirming the reports that Jennifer Lopez has ended her engagement to Ben Affleck. At this difficult time, we ask that you respect her privacy." Next Week's Us magazine is reporting the particulars of the breakup. The tumultuous 18-month romance purportedly ended Jan. 20, just three days after Ben returned to Los Angeles from the Sundance Film Festival. The decision was reportedly mutual. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 16:37:04 -0700 From: "cmb adams" Subject: Re: REAP On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 17:16:05 -0500, FSThomas wrote > > http://www.iraqbodycount.net/bodycount.htm > > > > they break it down by location, cause of death, > > and source. > > While they claim that "the Occupying Authority has a binding > responsibility to prevent...civilian deaths resulting from the > breakdown in law and order, and deaths due to inadequate health care > or sanitation," bandying around a distorted statistic saying that > the US has killed 10,000 Iraqis is wholly, criminally inaccurate. ah. and at what point did inaccuracy become criminal, exactly? I'm not sure it's really all that inaccurate. it seems to me that there are several thousand people dead who wouldn't be if the US invasion hadn't taken place. this seems beyond dispute. one can make the argument that the invasion will ultimately save many more lives (which I probably wouldn't buy, but it's at least a plausible argument) than it took. but minimizing or downplaying the fact that it did (directly or indirectly) take many innocent lives is simply intellectually dishonest. at the very least, the stats put the lie to the rosy image that our Leaders are trying to put across of happy, free, liberated iraqis welcoming our troops with open arms. (remember that one?) > There simply has to be acknowledgment that the vast majority of > these casualties are coming at the hands of insurgents and gorilla fighters. oh, there's that "vast majority" again. on whose numbers are you basing that "vast majority" statement? I cited a source with specific documentation. you didn't like it very much. maybe you can cite yours so that I can complain about it in my turn. regardless, would those insurgents and gorilla (sic) fighters exist if the invasion hadn't taken place? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 17:49:08 -0500 From: FSThomas Subject: Re: REAP cmb adams wrote: > on whose numbers are you basing that "vast majority" > statement? I cited a source with specific documentation. > you didn't like it very much. maybe you can cite yours > so that I can complain about it in my turn. I'm basing it on their documentation. Look down the columns and see how many say "killed by American gunfire." Not many at all. I'm of the opinion, too, that in the years and decades to come, the much-decried invasion will result in a country and region that is much better off than had the event not happened. Should democracy takes root (and there's no reason to think that it won't), the region will be stabilized and millions of people might stand a damned better chance than they do now. - -ferris. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 17:06:31 -0700 From: "cmb adams" Subject: Re: REAP On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 17:49:08 -0500, FSThomas wrote > cmb adams wrote: > > > on whose numbers are you basing that "vast majority" > > statement? I cited a source with specific documentation. > > you didn't like it very much. maybe you can cite yours > > so that I can complain about it in my turn. > > I'm basing it on their documentation. > > Look down the columns and see how many say "killed by American gunfire." > > Not many at all. you must have skipped the bottom half of the page, which lists one US bombing after another. it is seldom specific about the source of gunfire, but I hope you're not naive or willfully-ignorant-of-the daily-news enough to think that none of the "gunfire" listed is coming from Our Boys. but don't take my word for it. read some of the sources they cite (the AP, Reuters, BBC, etc) and see whose gunfire it was. I did. > I'm of the opinion, too, that in the years and decades to come, the > much-decried invasion will result in a country and region that is > much better off than had the event not happened. > > Should democracy takes root (and there's no reason to think that it > won't), the region will be stabilized and millions of people might > stand a damned better chance than they do now. I hope you eventually end up being proven right. I doubt you will be. but I hope so anyway. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 12:17:56 +1300 From: grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan) Subject: Re: Medi(a)eval movies >> oh, and a movie I suggested off-list, but - since it's become an ongoing >> thread here UI'll suggest on-list as well - The Advocate. Colin Firth as a >> lawyer told to defend a pig against an accusation of witchcraft. > >Please! The pig was accused of murder. Trying a pig for *witchcraft* >would be silly. :) shows how long it is since I saw the movie. I know it was at least seven years, because my partner at the time was a huge Colin Firth fan. Alice doesn't care for him - she's more inclined to watch Edward Norton or Kevin Spacey movies. James James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.- =-.-=-.-=-.- You talk to me as if from a distance .-=-.-=-.-=-. -=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time .-=- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 12:18:31 +1300 From: grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan) Subject: Re: REAP FS wrote: >It's tragic when anyone--in or out of a uniform--dies in violence. The >converse of this is that little is ever gained (or lost) without >sacrifice. I'm not getting involved with the argument, but my favourite Maori saying is "no great change is ever accomplished without great sadness". James James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.- =-.-=-.-=-.- You talk to me as if from a distance .-=-.-=-.-=-. -=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time .-=- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 15:29:22 -0800 (PST) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: REAP On Thu, 22 Jan 2004, FSThomas wrote: > > http://www.iraqbodycount.net/bodycount.htm > > > > they break it down by location, cause of death, > > and source. > > Their numbers may be accurate, but the timbre of the site isn't. The timbre isn't accurate? What does that even mean? > In quickly scanning the "weapon" used in the listed incidents, > incredibly few of them can be directly linked to actions taken by > coalition soldiers in the field. It seems by these numbers that it's > not our military that is doing the majority of the killing, as they list > "carbomb," "roadside bomb," and "grenade" (that killed 4 in a stall > selling alcohol) among the most commonly used weapons. To the best of > my knowledge, while our troops carry grenades, they don't stock > carbombs. These people would not have died had the US not instigated an invasion. That's enough. Those people died because of the war. > While they claim that "the Occupying Authority has a binding > responsibility to prevent...civilian deaths resulting from the breakdown > in law and order, and deaths due to inadequate health care or > sanitation," bandying around a distorted statistic saying that the US > has killed 10,000 Iraqis is wholly, criminally inaccurate. There simply > has to be acknowledgment that the vast majority of these casualties are > coming at the hands of insurgents and gorilla fighters. Why? Even if an American wasn't pulling the trigger, the trigger wouldn't have been pulled if not for the invasion and continued occupation of this foreign sovereignty. J. - -- _______________________________________________ Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 17:35:37 -0600 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: Medi(a)eval movies At 12:17 PM 1/23/2004 +1300, James Dignan wrote: >>> oh, and a movie I suggested off-list, but - since it's become an ongoing >>> thread here UI'll suggest on-list as well - The Advocate. Colin Firth as a >>> lawyer told to defend a pig against an accusation of witchcraft. >> >>Please! The pig was accused of murder. Trying a pig for *witchcraft* >>would be silly. :) > >shows how long it is since I saw the movie. I know it was at least seven >years, because my partner at the time was a huge Colin Firth fan. Alice >doesn't care for him - she's more inclined to watch Edward Norton or Kevin >Spacey movies. Well, just as long as you don't mistake Alice for a pig... later, Miles p.s.: thanks to Eb for pointing out the SubPop link -- it made my day! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 15:46:13 -0800 From: "Jason Brown \(Echo Services Inc\)" Subject: RE: REAP Jeme sez: > These people would not have died had the US not instigated an invasion. > That's enough. Those people died because of the war. > > Even if an American wasn't pulling the trigger, the trigger wouldn't have > been pulled if not for the invasion and continued occupation of this > foreign sovereignty. If you are going to play the blame game that way, then you might as well blame it all on Saddam Hussein for invading Kuwait back in 1990. After all, the US would not have invaded in 2003 if Saddam hadn't gotten the ball rolling 13 years earlier! Insurgents and terrorists should shoulder the blame for their own actions against Iraqis. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 16:01:22 -0800 (PST) From: Capuchin Subject: RE: REAP On Thu, 22 Jan 2004, Jason Brown (Echo Services Inc) wrote: > Jeme sez: > > These people would not have died had the US not instigated an > > invasion. That's enough. Those people died because of the war. > > > > Even if an American wasn't pulling the trigger, the trigger wouldn't > > have been pulled if not for the invasion and continued occupation of > > this foreign sovereignty. > > If you are going to play the blame game that way, then you might as well > blame it all on Saddam Hussein for invading Kuwait back in 1990. After > all, the US would not have invaded in 2003 if Saddam hadn't gotten the > ball rolling 13 years earlier! No, if you are going to play the blame game that way, you blame the U.S. for propping up Saddam in the first place and supplying him with the means and political ability to brutally repress the people of Iraq for 25 years. > Insurgents and terrorists should shoulder the blame for their own > actions against Iraqis. The "insurgents and terrorists" in Iraq today are freedom fighters working desperately to liberate their people from a foreign occupation. J. - -- _______________________________________________ Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 18:01:07 -0600 From: Marcy Tanter Subject: Re: REAP > > That's enough. Those people died because of the war. What war? What's going on now is not a war, it's an occupation. This is proven by Condoleeza Rice telling Juan Williams this morning that the US might allow the Iraqis to actually take part in the planning for elections in their own country. Ridding the world of Saddam Hussein is not a bad thing but what we're doing to the Iraqi people is. We have NO right to run their country or to try to tell them what they have to do. They didn't invite us in, we chose to go in when we felt like it without provocation. Whatever good intentions there _might_ be, we have learned nothing from lessons of the past, ie. the Native Americans and Africans. ! > > Insurgents and terrorists should shoulder the blame for their own actions against Iraqis. > And it's up to the Iraqi people how they want to handle it. We allow hundreds of US citizens to die every week on American soil without any government intervention. If some other country decided that they would be better off with a different government and came in here and told us how to run our country, how would we react? We let people sleep on the streets in freezing temperatures where they die---why is no one calling that torture? Marcy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 16:13:43 -0800 From: Tom Clark Subject: Iraqotopia (WAS: Re: REAP) on 1/22/04 4:01 PM, Capuchin at capuchin@bitmine.net wrote: > On Thu, 22 Jan 2004, Jason Brown (Echo Services Inc) wrote: > >> Insurgents and terrorists should shoulder the blame for their own >> actions against Iraqis. > > The "insurgents and terrorists" in Iraq today are freedom fighters working > desperately to liberate their people from a foreign occupation. > I'm not so sure about that. I'd reckon most of them were foreign born guerillas for hire. Probably working for that Al Queda guy. We're not just dealing with a palm-farmer uprising here. It's a battle for ideological control of the region. - -tc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 16:16:06 -0800 From: "Jason Brown \(Echo Services Inc\)" Subject: RE: REAP Jason Brown KNG Taxonomy Team KNG/MSWeb Best Bets http://msweb/ Jeme sayeth: > > If you are going to play the blame game that way, then you might as well > > blame it all on Saddam Hussein for invading Kuwait back in 1990. After > > all, the US would not have invaded in 2003 if Saddam hadn't gotten the > > ball rolling 13 years earlier! > > No, if you are going to play the blame game that way, you blame the U.S. > for propping up Saddam in the first place and supplying him with the means > and political ability to brutally repress the people of Iraq for 25 years. In that case why not blame the British and the Ottoman Turks? Or the Caliphate for that matter since they were part of long chain events that led to the US supporting Saddam. The point is this sort of blame game is silly and pointless. > > Insurgents and terrorists should shoulder the blame for their own > > actions against Iraqis. > > The "insurgents and terrorists" in Iraq today are freedom fighters working > desperately to liberate their people from a foreign occupation. I can buy that, but it doesn't change the fact these freedom fighters are responsible the deaths of Iraqis via car bombs and such. I'm not saying they aren't unjustified, just responsible. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 16:51:11 -0800 (PST) From: Capuchin Subject: RE: REAP On Thu, 22 Jan 2004, Jason Brown (Echo Services Inc) wrote: > In that case why not blame the British and the Ottoman Turks? Or the > Caliphate for that matter since they were part of long chain events that > led to the US supporting Saddam. The point is this sort of blame game is > silly and pointless. But it's NOT silly and pointless. It all adds up to the same thing. We can blame imperialism. We can blame offensive military strategy and action. We can see that blame and cease those practices and eliminate those ideals from our culture. J. - -- _______________________________________________ Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 16:54:30 -0800 (PST) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: Iraqotopia (WAS: Re: REAP) On Thu, 22 Jan 2004, Tom Clark wrote: > on 1/22/04 4:01 PM, Capuchin at capuchin@bitmine.net wrote: > > The "insurgents and terrorists" in Iraq today are freedom fighters > > working desperately to liberate their people from a foreign > > occupation. > > I'm not so sure about that. I'd reckon most of them were foreign born > guerillas for hire. Probably working for that Al Queda guy. We're not > just dealing with a palm-farmer uprising here. What's that reckoning based on? Two weeks ago, tens of thousands of Iraqis gathered in major cities to protest the occupation. Surely there are a many hundreds willing and able to take up arms against the foreign soldiers patrolling their streets. > It's a battle for ideological control of the region. And those ideologies would be the one that says the Americans should have infinite dominion over foreign lands and peoples and the one that says Americans are over-stepping their bounds and violating the rights of others? J. - -- _______________________________________________ Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 17:24:37 -0800 From: Tom Clark Subject: Re: Iraqotopia (WAS: Re: REAP) on 1/22/04 4:54 PM, Capuchin at capuchin@bitmine.net wrote: > On Thu, 22 Jan 2004, Tom Clark wrote: >> on 1/22/04 4:01 PM, Capuchin at capuchin@bitmine.net wrote: >>> The "insurgents and terrorists" in Iraq today are freedom fighters >>> working desperately to liberate their people from a foreign >>> occupation. >> >> I'm not so sure about that. I'd reckon most of them were foreign born >> guerillas for hire. Probably working for that Al Queda guy. We're not >> just dealing with a palm-farmer uprising here. > > What's that reckoning based on? > > Two weeks ago, tens of thousands of Iraqis gathered in major cities to > protest the occupation. Surely there are a many hundreds willing and able > to take up arms against the foreign soldiers patrolling their streets. > Protesting in the street and blowing shit up are two entirely different things. Who's to say that the thousands protesting aren't just trying to force change within the "rules" of a democratic system, while the car bombers are up to something completely different? >> It's a battle for ideological control of the region. > > And those ideologies would be the one that says the Americans should have > infinite dominion over foreign lands and peoples and the one that says > Americans are over-stepping their bounds and violating the rights of > others? > I was thinking more along the lines of a "fundamentalist Muslim - women in burquas - jews and christians are evil - cut off your hands if you steal an apple" vs. "we are peaceful as long as you give us your oil for cheap - Starbucks needs more retail outlets - we'll pretend to tolerate your religious beliefs while we ram ours down your throats" kind of battle. Think Osama vs. Cheney. - -tc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 21:00:37 -0500 (EST) From: Jill Brand Subject: addicts Jeme wrote: "I hope your friend's daughter gets on a better course. But I don't think that moving to another town will have much of a long-term effect." Unfortunately, I agree. This is a very screwed up "little" girl (she's almost 27) who has gone from alcohol to heroin. It just seems that every time she gets back to Reading, there are all the people and all the access, and she falls right back into her old ways. I don't know what will become of her. This is truly every mother's nightmare. Jill ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V13 #22 *******************************