From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V12 #460 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Friday, December 12 2003 Volume 12 : Number 460 Today's Subjects: ----------------- finest worksongs ["randi l. spiegel" ] DVD's, including one with Robyn on it ["Rex.Broome" ] Re: DVD's, including one with Robyn on it ["Fortissimo" ] Re: fun with typography [Sebastian Hagedorn ] Re: Regional conflicts ["Matt Sewell" ] Re: Regional conflicts ["Fortissimo" ] Re: Regional conflicts [Jeff Dwarf ] Re: bizarre new lyric interpretation [Michael R Godwin ] Re: fun with cat power [Caroline Smith ] Re: Soft Boys/RH bittorrent, Best Robyn Boots? ["Grunty" ] Reap... then Resurrection ["Jason R. Thornton" ] Re: Reap... then Resurrection [Jeff Dwarf ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 18:56:19 -0500 From: "randi l. spiegel" Subject: finest worksongs If you enjoy Fountains of Wayne, you might like the song "Bright Future In Sales" off their latest album, "Welcome Interstate Managers". :-) fading back into yesterday before tomorrow comes, Randi toronto, ontario, canada *fountains of wayne list* http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fowlist/ *what scares you most will set you free* ~ robyn hitchcock *by endurance we conquer* ~ sir ernest shackleton *i'm never gonna know you now but i'm gonna love you anyhow* ~ elliott smith (i miss you pitseleh, xo) august 6, 1969 - october 21, 2003 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 17:00:03 -0800 From: "Rex.Broome" Subject: DVD's, including one with Robyn on it Max: >>I would think the American fashion to make far more sense. When laying >>a book down with the cover up, the text on the spine would be right side up. Yeah, I tend to agree... this is one of the few things that we changed for the better. The dates and most spellings were fine the way they were and still are everywhere else in the world. Ken: >>So Says I - The Shins >>Westby - Kathleen Edwards >>Wrapped in Books - Belle & Sebastian >>Bad Day - REM >>By the Time It Gets Dark - Yo La Tengo Hmmm. I don't rate "Bad Day" at all (too obviously recycled) but I like "Animal" quite a bit. Just checked my database to see what "new" records I purchased this year. Less than half as many 2003 records on there even than 2002 ones. Admittedly I certainly picked up some of last year's releases this year, but still... looks like that anti-fogeyism medication hasn't kicked in yet. James: >>I've just been reading a book on palaeontology which mentioned the fact >>that the first name given to the pterodactyl - before anyone realised that >>it was a reptile - was ornithocephalus ("Bird's head"). Neat. I was trying to remember what got me to play and sing* this song for the family a few weeks ago, and it just came to me: my mother-in-law was trying to come up with a non-trad Thanksgiving song for us to sing, and I went casting about, and lamely the first thing I popped out with was "Begin the Begin", essentially because it has Miles Standish in it, and the second thing due to some tenuous connection to turkey was in fact "Birdshead", after which I pretty much bagged the effort. Bear in mind I was limited to songs to which I knew at least most of the words. ____ Jeme: >>I DO firmly believe in my opinions. I don't see how a person could >>live otherwise. Point of clarification: you don't see how a person could live otherwise than to firmly believe in his or her own opinions, or you don't see how a a person could live otherwise than believing yours? Not trying to agitate further. I think you meant the former, but I first read it as the latter. _________ Miles on Buffy: >>Chris Gross is absolutely, positively right about starting at the beginning. I've pretty much concluded with any older show I'm going to investigate that renting and viewing the DVD's from the beginning is the only way to go, whenever it's possible. I mean, better picture, no bugs in the corner, no ads, not having to watch it at a particular time or in hour-long doses only... viewed that way, it seems like television could almost be considered a legitimate artistic medium. Beyond which I think the DVD medium is serving television far better than films. Not that some films haven't been presented gloriously, but the initial DVD issues of recent films often feel like "promotional tool #57" for the film itself-- is the thing they showed on MTV to make you go to see the film before it came out really first-rate "bonus" material, or more like a commercial for something that you obviously already have?-- and the subsequent "Special Editions" beg the question of why the hell it wasn't simply done right the first time. The TV packages tend to have a much more "archival" feel to them, not to mention the fact that, as alluded to above, the content actually looks *better* than it did, and is presented more respectfully than it was, when it was first offered to the public, which is basically impossible with features. Rex's DVD Insider Tip of the Day: the Fox DVD Dept. has me hunting down VAM ("Value Added (blechhh) Material") for the original Star Wars trilogy... so that may be appearing sooner than one originally thought. Last I heard the plan was to release only the 1997 Special Eviscerations, but the DVD guys are really keen to get ahold of trailers and TV spots from the original releases, so maybe that's being revisited. Kids These Days Department: my daughter recognizes those shiny little discs with the hole in the middle exclusively as "DVD's". So there's the post-CD generation for you. Also, in the course of Christmas shopping this weekend I picked myself up a $7 DVD of Storefront Hitchcock. And then I needed something to occupy the children while me, the wife, and a friend moved a washing machine full of water out of the house and another one into the house, hooked it up, messed around with electrical circuits, etc. So I threw in Storefront, thinking my older daughter would dig it as a relatively similar thing to the concerts I do for her (tall guy, guitar, naff hair, eyebrows, some of the same songs). All fine and good, but unless I just accidentally mashed some buttons in my haste, I didn't select French subtitles, but there they were. And some of them were... interesting. I was particularly paying attention during "1974" which lost a lot of shades of meaning due probably to the density of the lyrics-- "you could vote for Labor" came out more like "you could vote for workers", and "Python's last series" was just plain "Monty Python". But the weirdest one was the "Oh Christ" at the end, the subtitle for which was just plain "Merde", which, umm, is a different word, I think. A friend who speaks a bit better French than me said that she just didn't remember the French using "Jesus" or "Christ" as oaths that often, which is possibly true, but they certainly say "mon Dieu" which would seem at least a little more analogous. Soooo... anyone know anything more about Robyn's role in that Manchurian Candidate thingy? - -Rex * Is there some less tortured way to indicate that I'm presenting a song by singing it and accompanying myself on an instrument? "I played that song" seems to indicate playback of a recording. "I sang it" sounds a capella and somehow tuneless. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 17:14:19 -0800 (PST) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: DVD's, including one with Robyn on it On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Rex.Broome wrote: > Jeme: > >>I DO firmly believe in my opinions. I don't see how a person could > >>live otherwise. > > Point of clarification: you don't see how a person could live otherwise > than to firmly believe in his or her own opinions, or you don't see how > a a person could live otherwise than believing yours? Not trying to > agitate further. I think you meant the former, but I first read it as > the latter. Ack! I certainly meant the former. And while I was obviously ambiguous, I would hope that nobody here knows anybody crazy enough to actually hold the latter as true. > Rex's DVD Insider Tip of the Day: the Fox DVD Dept. has me hunting down > VAM ("Value Added (blechhh) Material") for the original Star Wars > trilogy... so that may be appearing sooner than one originally thought. > Last I heard the plan was to release only the 1997 Special > Eviscerations, but the DVD guys are really keen to get ahold of trailers > and TV spots from the original releases, so maybe that's being > revisited. I read something a couple of years ago (OK, maybe last summer?) from a fellow at ILM that stated they were yet again redoing some of the effects shots from the original films and that the "special editions" or whatever of the late nineties weren't the end-all of the original trilogy. So maybe that's what we're gonna see? > Kids These Days Department: my daughter recognizes those shiny little > discs with the hole in the middle exclusively as "DVD's". So there's > the post-CD generation for you. Well, they're different things and I think there will be at least a third format on those shiny discs before too long. The density will increase and the medium will be given a new name. Neither CD nor DVD implies any particular use, of course... be that audio, video, or whatever other kind of data. > But the wei! > rdest one was the "Oh Christ" at the end, the subtitle for which was > just plain "Merde", which, umm, is a different word, I think. Am I the only one getting weird !^M (exclamation followed by line break) stuff from Rex's messages? > A friend who speaks a bit better French than me said that she just > didn't remember the French using "Jesus" or "Christ" as oaths that > often, which is possibly true, but they certainly say "mon Dieu" which > would seem at least a little more analogous. That'd be my belief, there. I usually see "mon Dieu" in an exclamation of surprise much more than a lament like "merde". Personally, I think they should have subtitled it as "Merdre!" > * Is there some less tortured way to indicate that I'm presenting a song > by singing it and accompanying myself on an instrument? "I played that > song" seems to indicate playback of a recording. "I sang it" sounds a > capella and somehow tuneless. I think "played and sang" gives the right idea without seeming at all tortured and awkward. I mean, you could have written it like you just did above "singing and accompanying myself on an instrument". But I don't know of a word that means "singing while accompanying one's self on an instrument". Although, now that I think about it, it's not an unreasonable thing to ask. We should have a word for that. Hmm... J. - -- _______________________________________________ Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 20:29:14 -0500 (EST) From: Christopher Gross Subject: Re: Regional conflicts On Thu, Dec Eleven 2003, Capuchin wrote: > I mean, lots of > folks on this list have written that they've heard the expression on > television and you and Chris talk about watching more television than > pretty much anybody on this list, Me? Well, that just goes to show how much one's self-image can be completely different from how others see one.... But now that I think about it, I'm pretty much a lurker these days, and one of the few things that regularly draws me out of my cave is when someone mentions certain TV programs created by one Joss Whedon. So maybe that really is the impression I give on the Feg list. Hmmm. Now slightly uncomfortable, Chris np: Clan of Xymox, "Jasmine and Rose" (And hey, there was a character named Jasmine on Angel last year, played by an actress from Firefly -- oops, sorry.) ______________________________________________________________________ Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog. chrisg@gwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 19:52:33 -0600 From: "Fortissimo" Subject: Re: DVD's, including one with Robyn on it > * Is there some less tortured way to indicate that I'm presenting a song > by singing it and accompanying myself on an instrument? "I played that > song" seems to indicate playback of a recording. "I sang it" sounds a > capella and somehow tuneless. "Performed"? Of course, that might suggest that you dressed up as the Empire State Building and batted around styrofoam sculptures of King Kong and buzzing little planes while singing. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ...Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com/ :: Solipsism is its own reward :: :: --Crow T. Robot ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 20:08:36 -0600 From: "Fortissimo" Subject: I am the Syntax King! Do I Can Anything! (the old subj was just as irrelevant) What's that? We're talking about _Buffy_ again? Okay... On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 17:40:34 -0600, "Miles Goosens" said: > Retrospectively, I'm not as keen on Season Seven (the final season), > which in turn has put a dent in my defense of Season Six, which in turn > rested on me believing that a lot of the lonnnng arcs of the Season Six > were setting up the dominos for Season Seven, which in turn never got > around to knocking most of them down. But even with those complaints, > Seasons Six and Seven whup up on most other things and are packed with > absolutely essential moments. Plus Season Six has the musical episode > and starts 'n' ends really well. I'd have to watch the whole damned thing over again, but...despite the prevailing narrative of overall decline after (depending whom you listen to) season 3 or season 4, to me the three best stand-alone episodes are "Hush," "Once More with Feeling," and "The Body" - none of which are from the supposed peak seasons of 2 and 3. By "stand-alone," I simply mean that they work pretty well w/o knowing the season's dramatic arc, and also that they stand fairly well outside the mythology. They also, viewed one after the other, do a damned fine job of establishing the range of Whedon et al.'s abilities - from half an episode with *no* sound at all, to a nearly through-written musical, to an episode that takes place nearly in real time (before _24_ made a gimmick of it); from sheer creepiness to high hilarity and all the way to just plain shattering emotionality (I showed "The Body" to some friends who'd only ever seen _Buffy_ once or twice - they were both in tears by the end). . ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ...Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com/ :: Some days, you just can't get rid of a bomb :: --Batman ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 21:09:12 -0500 From: "Maximilian Lang" Subject: RE: DVD's, including one with Robyn on it >From: "Rex.Broome" >Subject: DVD's, including one with Robyn on it >Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 17:00:03 -0800 >Soooo... anyone know anything more about Robyn's role in that Manchurian >Candidate thingy? No but why the f*ck is Demme remaking this film? Two in a row for him, two flawless classics remade. Is he that devoid of ideas? Why not remake Citizen Kane? I will likely check it out due to Robyn's involvement but I think it is a rotten idea. mAX _________________________________________________________________ Dont worry if your Inbox will max out while you are enjoying the holidays. Get MSN Extra Storage! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 18:54:20 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Dwarf Subject: RE: DVD's, including one with Robyn on it Maximilian Lang wrote: > "Rex.Broome" asked: > >Soooo... anyone know anything more about Robyn's > >role in that Manchurian Candidate thingy? > No but why the f*ck is Demme remaking this film? > Two in a row for him, two flawless classics remade. > Is he that devoid of ideas? Why not remake > Citizen Kane? I will likely check it out due to > Robyn's involvement but I think it is a rotten idea. Just a guess but, the studios want him too, and he wants to build up enough good will to get away with doing things like Storefront Hitchcock or this: http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0377031/ The last narrative non-remake he made was Beloved, which bombed in spite of having the Oprah seal of approval. His previous before that was Philadelphia, a full 10 years ago. I think he may very well be bored with doing narrative films, and only does them when he has to so he can get the studios to indulge him in what he really wants to do. And as unnecessary as a remake of Manchurian Candidate, Demme will at least do a less horrible job than whoever the 2nd-8th choices were probably would have. As for remaking Citizen Kane, it's probably inevitable. ===== "Senator John McCain recently compared the situation in Iraq to the Vietnam era -- to which President Bush replied, 'What does Iraq have in common with drinking beer in Texas?'" -- Craig Kilborn "I don't think the Bush administration lied to us about Iraq. I think it's worse than that. I think they fooled themselves. I think they were conned by Ahmad Chalabi. I think they indulged in wishful thinking to a point of near criminality. I think they decided anyone who didn't agree with them was an enemy, anti-American, disloyal. In other words, I think they're criminally stupid." -- Molly Ivins __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 20:55:56 -0800 (PST) From: anthony stokes Subject: Soft Boys/RH bittorrent, Best Robyn Boots? Did anyone follow the link to the Soft Boys bittorrent that woj posted? All I get when I click on the link is a page saying I've followed an Invalid Thread. I did however manage to download The Bottom Line sets and have to say I'm eternally grateful to whomever recorded this show and seeded it. What great sound quality. You can hear Grunty laughing down front. I do have to say that I'm glad the recording didn't pick up the guy who sang along with "Bass" accentuating the sibilants. He was a hell of a nice guy, but that was kind of annoying. Anybody know where to get more Robyn/Soft boys in .shn with bittorrent? This has only whetted my appetite to acquire more of his/their live work. If anyone considers themselves an authority on Robyn bootlegs I'd love an opinion on where to start, what shows have the best sound quality, and any Wet Dream/Holy Grail/Historically Significant shows to look for. Any input would be appreciated. New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 23:18:44 -0600 (GMT-06:00) From: Miles Goosens Subject: fun with typography If you've seen the cover of Cat Power's YOU ARE FREE, it reads like this, with the artist name offset in pink: YOU ARE CAT POWER FREE When I see it, I always think "Why yes, I *am* Cat Power-free!" later, Miles (who owns cats but no Cat Power, thanks) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:07:55 +0100 From: Sebastian Hagedorn Subject: Re: fun with typography - --On Donnerstag, 11. Dezember 2003 23:18 Uhr -0600 Miles Goosens wrote: > If you've seen the cover of Cat Power's YOU ARE FREE, it reads like this, > with the artist name offset in pink: > > YOU ARE CAT POWER FREE > > When I see it, I always think "Why yes, I *am* Cat Power-free!" > > later, > > Miles > (who owns cats but no Cat Power, thanks) I saw her once in Cologne and was generally unimpressed, even though my friends all adore her. I don't get it. - -- Sebastian Hagedorn PGP key ID: 0x4D105B45 Ehrenfeldg|rtel 156 50823 Kvln http://www.spinfo.uni-koeln.de/~hgd/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 07:05:52 -0500 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: Re: films and missed opportunities Devin Lee Ens wrote: > > organise "organize" - -ize is the preferred spelling in UK and Canada. Gage (a Canadian dictionary I worked on) doesn't list -ise. Stewart ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 07:09:15 -0500 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: Re: Regional conflicts Fortissimo wrote: > > Speaking of cardinals, who do you think's going to be the next pope? some bloke who likes red silk. I like cardinals, especially when you get several of then in a tree in a snowscape. Stewart ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:47:02 +0000 From: "Matt Sewell" Subject: Re: Regional conflicts I don't mind doing it if no-one else wants to. What are the hours? Cheers Matt >Fortissimo wrote: >> >>Speaking of cardinals, who do you think's going to be the next >>pope? - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Subscribe to MSN 8 today for a better internet experience and save over 25% on the ususal price! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 07:46:44 -0600 From: "Fortissimo" Subject: Re: Regional conflicts On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:47:02 +0000, "Matt Sewell" said: > I don't mind doing it if no-one else wants to. What are the hours? > > >Fortissimo wrote: >> >>Speaking of cardinals, who do you think's going > to be the next >>pope? Plus, if you scored low on that "how many times in drag?" question, you can correct that. I dunno, though - being able to pilot the Popemobile through the streets would be way cool. I wonder if they bless the gasoline before filling it up - that way, the exhaust could be a sacrament! Excellent! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ...Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society http://spanghew.blogspot.com/ :: "In two thousand years, they'll still be looking for Elvis - :: this is nothing new," said the priest. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 07:09:40 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Dwarf Subject: Re: Regional conflicts Fortissimo wrote: > Speaking of cardinals, who do you think's going to > be the next pope? Tony La Russa or Ozzie Smith. Certainly not Bill Bidwell. ===== "Senator John McCain recently compared the situation in Iraq to the Vietnam era -- to which President Bush replied, 'What does Iraq have in common with drinking beer in Texas?'" -- Craig Kilborn "I don't think the Bush administration lied to us about Iraq. I think it's worse than that. I think they fooled themselves. I think they were conned by Ahmad Chalabi. I think they indulged in wishful thinking to a point of near criminality. I think they decided anyone who didn't agree with them was an enemy, anti-American, disloyal. In other words, I think they're criminally stupid." -- Molly Ivins __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 16:05:07 +0000 (GMT) From: Michael R Godwin Subject: Re: bizarre new lyric interpretation On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 grutness@surf4nix.com wrote: > I've just been reading a book on palaeontology which mentioned the fact > that the first name given to the pterodactyl - before anyone realised that > it was a reptile - was ornithocephalus ("Bird's head"). Given the popular > artists interpretations of these creatures, several of the verses make a > lot of sense... could it be? Good stuff, James. Makes lots of sense of at least two verses. But what about "Grow on my shoulder"? I'd always guessed that this was a cancer reference. But maybe he's viewing himself entering the fossilisation process alongside a pterosaur. Incidentally, pterosaurs were unlike any living reptile, being probably warm-blooded and possibly even furry, though this is disputed. I don't think they would be classed as reptiles if they were still flapping about today. - - Mike Godwin PS Maybe "bird's head grow on my shoulder" is simply a Thoth allusion. n.p. Kings of Leon "Holy Roller Novocaine" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 11:41:35 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: fun with typography On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, Sebastian Hagedorn wrote: > I saw her once in Cologne and was generally unimpressed, even though my > friends all adore her. I don't get it. I was never much impressed by her before, but I find the new album very good. (Except for the "isn't child abuse awful?" song.) aaron ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 11:52:07 -0500 From: Caroline Smith Subject: Re: fun with cat power On Dec 12, 2003, at 11:41 AM, Aaron Mandel wrote: > On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, Sebastian Hagedorn wrote: > >> I saw her once in Cologne and was generally unimpressed, even though >> my >> friends all adore her. I don't get it. > > I was never much impressed by her before, but I find the new album very > good. (Except for the "isn't child abuse awful?" song.) > I'm quite fond of the sound of her voice. The latest album was good and I enjoy the covers album too. Saw her live about a year ago and was surprised at how "ditzy" she seemed. c. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 13:29:09 -0500 From: "Grunty" Subject: Re: Soft Boys/RH bittorrent, Best Robyn Boots? oh god how embarassing : P Grunty gruntydawarthawg@verizon.net You can hear Grunty laughing down front. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 10:35:57 -0800 From: Tom Clark Subject: Re: Soft Boys/RH bittorrent, Best Robyn Boots? on 12/11/03 8:55 PM, anthony stokes at floydfan420_70@yahoo.com wrote: > I did however manage to download The Bottom Line sets and have to say I'm > eternally grateful to whomever recorded this show and seeded it. What great > sound quality. Agreed. I usually shy away from audience recordings, but this one is top notch. Especially through headphones. - -tc ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:59:57 -0800 From: Eb Subject: The Year of Doom isn't over yet So...you remember the uncle I visited in Florida, around early September? Cancer newly diagnosed in both lungs and his thyroid gland. I'm so dazed by the rest of the year's horrors that I'm not even feeling what I should about this news. He's the last survivor of *eight* brothers and sisters. Eb np: nothing ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 15:39:43 -0800 From: "Jason R. Thornton" Subject: Reap... then Resurrection Further proof that Ozzy is the anti-christ. He's now risen from the dead. http://apnews.myway.com/article/20031212/D7VCUKE01.html - --Jason "Only the few know the sweetness of the twisted apples." - Sherwood Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 16:23:41 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Dwarf Subject: Re: Reap... then Resurrection "Jason R. Thornton" wrote: > Further proof that Ozzy is the anti-christ. He's > now risen from the dead. > > http://apnews.myway.com/article/20031212/D7VCUKE01.html Maybe that's just proof he's Jesus.... ===== "Senator John McCain recently compared the situation in Iraq to the Vietnam era -- to which President Bush replied, 'What does Iraq have in common with drinking beer in Texas?'" -- Craig Kilborn "I don't think the Bush administration lied to us about Iraq. I think it's worse than that. I think they fooled themselves. I think they were conned by Ahmad Chalabi. I think they indulged in wishful thinking to a point of near criminality. I think they decided anyone who didn't agree with them was an enemy, anti-American, disloyal. In other words, I think they're criminally stupid." -- Molly Ivins __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! 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