From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V12 #277 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Thursday, July 17 2003 Volume 12 : Number 277 Today's Subjects: ----------------- grammar nadgers [grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan)] Pronominal drift and proto-prog ["Rex.Broome" ] Re: Pronominal drift and proto-prog [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: downtube shifter bosses [Michael R Godwin ] Re: Pronominal drift and proto-prog [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: power boaters? ["Stewart C. Russell" ] Re: omg the canadians are arguing [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] reap [Jeff Dwarf ] Re: Reap ["Stewart C. Russell" ] Re: Cream [Tom Clark ] Re: Classic...utterly classic [Jeff Dwarf ] reap ["Stewart C. Russell" ] Re: Cream [Michael R Godwin ] Re: reap [Caroline Smith ] Re: reap ["Stewart C. Russell" ] Re: omg the scots are soft and buttery [gshell@metronet.com] Re: omg the scots are soft and buttery ["Stewart C. Russell" ] Re: omg the scots are soft and buttery [gshell@metronet.com] Re: omg the scots are soft and buttery [Capuchin ] Run Ronnie Run ["Maximilian Lang" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 12:36:53 +1200 From: grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan) Subject: grammar nadgers >> Bob Dylan's "You Aren't Going Anywhere" & "It Isn't Me, Babe" > >That should be "It Isn't I, Babe," shouldn't it - since "is" takes the >nominative (subject) form? true. Even Robyn has pointed this out with a subtle: "My baby and me (as Kimberley would say)" - --- Brian posited: >This is Lewis Carroll, right? I'll take that as a compliment :) James James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.- =-.-=-.-=-.- You talk to me as if from a distance .-=-.-=-.-=-. -=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time .-=- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 18:02:25 -0700 From: "Rex.Broome" Subject: Pronominal drift and proto-prog JeFFrey: >>Now, if you read "they may be stupid" as referring to women, you can >>see why some people might be upset by the lines. Of course, it's equally >>likely (and grammatically supported) that that line refers to the "things"... Stuff like this happens conversationally, too. I recently bailed my brother-in-law out of some hot water with my wife when something kind of like this went down: Wife: Davey, my daughter's getting dangerously close to the edge of the deck. B-I-L: Well, Sis, what do you want me to do about it?* Wife: (Pause) Are you calling my child an "it"? B-I-L: Uhhh... (unsure of how to respond) Rex: I thought that by "it" he meant the fact that she's close to the edge of the deck. B-I-L: Yeah, that. Wife: He's my brother... I know what he meant. B-I-L: (aside to Rex) I owe you one, man. (His actual quote was more pronominally ambiguous than that but I can't reconstruct it just now.) >>Too bad the drums are so poorly recorded - they sound like cardboard >>boxes half the time. Why do you so quickly rule out the possibility that *that's exactly what they are*? >>Who let all my pet peeves loose? Anyway, "classically trained" is one >>of 'em: I'm never sure (because journalists rarely elaborate) exactly >>what that means: graduate degree from Juilliard, or two years of piano >>lessons? Rap on, brotha. Plus I've never understood what in the *hell* evidence there is that extensive training in *one* idiom (classical in this case, but could be jug band for all I care) means one is inevitably going to shine in another (rock, or Tuvan throat-singing). (Already used my wife as a character in a dialogue in this post and therefore will resist transcribing the same arguement she and I have had 7,231 time about Brian May, but it's summed up above.) >>Even early Yes (the first two, underheard albums) slot >>fairly neatly next to vaguely folky, psychedelic records contemporary >>with them. They cover two Buffalo Springfield songs, for instance Whoa. I'll add that when I got my hands on the second Nuggets box (with the UK stuff) I was shocked, shocked I tell you, at how often I'd hear a tune that was fucking fantastic, grab the book, and find out that someone in the band ended up in Yes. ("My White Bicycle" by Tomorrow is so perfect that it sounds more like a ret-conned Dukes of the Stratosphear "psychedelia should have sounded like this" experiment than a real period piece.) Possibly some of this stuff should be tagged "proto-prog" inasmuchas the VU, Stooges, Modern Lovers et. al. are called "proto-punk". More retrocontinuity for ya. Shit, Eb beat me to it. Great Broomes think alike. ___ James on Screaming Trees: >>actually, I only said it once, to point out that bands with "prog rock >>tendencies" don't all happen to be prog rock bands. I thought you mentioned that a few months back on the "grunge" thread... approaching the ST's from the opposite angle. But I repeat myself all the time. so don't feel bad. ______ Ross T: >>Maybe "Some Velvet Morning" by Nancy Sinatra & Lee Hazelwood could >>be considered ... Now that there is certainly one of the most fucked-up songs ever to hit the top 10 (at least I think it did)... But it's too guileless to be Prog. The two sections in different time signatures are just spliced together (especially at the end where you get two bars of one and two bars of the other). If you want to call something "acid rock", here you go. No real musical show-offitude, just, hey, deal with this weird shit. ____ >>So, in conclusion, prog doesnt help you pick up chicks. Well, if we've learned nothing else today... - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 18:15:41 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: Pronominal drift and proto-prog >("My White Bicycle" by Tomorrow is so perfect that it >sounds more like a ret-conned Dukes of the Stratosphear "psychedelia should >have sounded like this" experiment than a real period piece.) And I discovered Tomorrow and the Dukes of Stratosphear within just a few months of each other, too. I bought that Tomorrow album on used import vinyl for something like $1.88, and I don't recall ever seeing it on sale anywhere again. Eb, now awaiting yet more whizz-test results ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 23:30:48 -0500 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: Pronominal drift and proto-prog Quoting Eb : > I bought that Tomorrow album on used import vinyl for something like > $1.88, and I don't recall ever seeing it on sale anywhere again. Odd...that's my experience exactly. I think I've already told this forum the story of how I acquired Jefferson Airplane's _After Bathing at Baxter's_ and three other psych/art-damaged late sixties classics? J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: Some days, you just can't get rid of a bomb :: --Batman ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 23:44:30 -0500 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: Pronominal drift and proto-prog Quoting "Rex.Broome" : > Whoa. I'll add that when I got my hands on the second Nuggets box (with > the > UK stuff) I was shocked, shocked I tell you, at how often I'd hear a > tune > that was fucking fantastic, grab the book, and find out that someone in > the > band ended up in Yes. Off the top of my head, I can think of three...although now I can't remember the titles (Steve Howe in Tomorrow, Chris Squire in The Syn(?), and Tony Kaye (organ) in some band or other). One of my favorites on that set is "Baby Your Phrasing Is Bad" (relevant title!) by Caleb, later using his full name, Caleb Quaye, and playing geetar for Elton John. Speaking of whom, *his* first album has some rather psychedelic moments...and lyrics: what's the one about "submarine tickets"? Anycow, that's exactly the sort of thing I mean: if you can think of what it would be like to have heard the music in the order it happened (Tomorrow first, then Yes...terday?!), then you'll hear the influences and evolution in the right order - not (as we usually do) in reverse, hearing prog against the backdrop of what it turned into, or what rebelled against it. Good (if easy) trivia question: how many once or future members of Yes played with Lou Reed? > Ross T: > >>Maybe "Some Velvet Morning" by Nancy Sinatra & Lee Hazelwood could > >>be considered ... > > Now that there is certainly one of the most fucked-up songs ever to hit > the > top 10 (at least I think it did)... > > But it's too guileless to be Prog. The two sections in different time > signatures are just spliced together (especially at the end where you > get > two bars of one and two bars of the other). Yes, but quite artfully so: in the middle of the measures, so the phrases flow better. Count it off: the 4/4 bars end with a bar of 2/4 (I think) and then into the 3/4 section...which ends also with a bar of 2/4, before going back to 4/4. I wonder if the song was originally two separate songs, and someone had the bright idea of (first) making them one song, and then doing that alternating thing on the last verse. And hey: that opening, rather florid string figure? Isn't there a Mahavishnu Orchestra song (on the orchestral album) that opens *very* similarly? ..Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: When the only tool you have is an interociter, you tend to treat :: everything as if it were a fourth-order nanodimensional sub-quantum :: temporo-spatial anomaly. :: --Crow T. Maslow ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 07:36:07 -0400 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: Re: Pronominal drift and proto-prog Eb wrote: > > And I discovered Tomorrow and the Dukes of Stratosphear within just a > few months of each other, too. Ah, the Dukes. Just got a cow-orker completely into them, and been listening to them a lot. I wish there had been more ... Stewart ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 12:59:53 +0100 (BST) From: Michael R Godwin Subject: RE: Cream > on 7/16/03 4:03 AM, Dolph Chaney at dolphmusic@rcn.com wrote: > > (After all, the gig that got Yes signed to Atlantic was > > their opening set for Cream's last show.) > On Wed, 16 Jul 2003, Tom Clark wrote: > I just watched the documentary of that gig on Trio Network last week. It > was interesting from a historical perspective, but the concert coverage was > horrible. I mean, do I want to just watch a close up of Jack Bruce's mouth > for an entire song? And almost ten minutes of the program were of Baker's > drum solo - snore. The individual interviews were interesting though. It > was neat to see Clapton explaining his use of the different pickups and wah > wah, plus how he incorporates his stock phrases. Although I expected at any > moment he was going to say "these go to eleven!" You could tell Chris Guest > watched the same footage while researching Spinal Tap. Mumble mumble ... went to that show ... grunt grunt ... both houses ... hmff hmff ... ashtray for the first house, seats for the second ... Clapton played an Explorer (IIRC) for the first house, never seen one before, then a 335 for the second ... Yes played Bernstein's "Someone's coming" as their showpiece number ... cough cough ... Taste (featuring Rory Gallagher) were on as well ... wheeze wheeze ... I came across the _enormous_ Cream poster from that show only the other day - haven't got anywhere to hang it. They were nowhere near as good as they had been at the Savile Theatre in 1967, supported by the Bonzos. > Anyone for tennis? Wouldn't that be nice? - - Mike Godwin, aged 55 PS You're dead right about the direction. Somehow or other Tony Palmer managed to persuade the powers that he was a great director of rock music. Did he say "four Marshall speakers, each one big enough to FILL the Albert Hall with sound"? Or was that another film? n.p. Tomorrow "My white bicycle" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 13:07:23 +0100 (BST) From: Michael R Godwin Subject: Re: downtube shifter bosses On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, James Dignan wrote: > Bulleid wheels are recommended, too. Great stuff, James! But they're called Boxpok wheels, no idea why. Incidentally, I just remembered that Disraeli Gears is a biking malapropism for (Derailleur gears). - - MRG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 07:49:09 -0500 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: Pronominal drift and proto-prog Quoting "Stewart C. Russell" : > Ah, the Dukes. Just got a cow-orker completely into them, and been > listening to them a lot. I wish there had been more ... Your wish may come true: ..Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: sex, drugs, revolt, Eskimos, atheism ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 07:35:09 -0500 (CDT) From: gshell@metronet.com Subject: Re: omg the canadians are arguing On Sat, 12 Jul 2003, Capuchin wrote: > May I suggest staying in the city and working to fix the problem instead > of moving on to greener pastures (as it were) and leaving the problem > for others? if everyone else had left i might have stayed, but no matter what i did it continued to get worse and the people kept coming. there is a point at which you have to admit defeat and either walkway or die there. and the idea of fighting or working for something towards which you have no respect or desire doesn't make sense. i left the woods, moved to city and then wondered how far away from the city i would have to move to be comfortable again. cities are impersonal, unhealthy, dangerous and supported by a pop culture which i am starting to believe is fueled by fear. the cities smell, are an eye-sore and they are unclean. there are few people in a city who could survive without the city. that makes me uncomfortable. so while some people become more independent and less bound by the conveniences of the city, others won't. it is essentially a lifestyle choice based on things i believe are important and would like to accomplish before i die. almost none of which are possible or even practical in the city and some are even illegal within the city. sorry if i offended anyone when i was harping about the city in previous posts. i did not mean specifically to make anyone angry or to offend anybody's spouse. gSs np. someone else's song - wilco ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 07:58:52 -0500 (CDT) From: gshell@metronet.com Subject: Re: power boaters? anyone here a power boater? i'm looking at purchasing a 1983 23' Chris Craft Scorpion but there are a couple others i am interested in. one is a 1979 sea ray 220 overnighter and the other is a 1976 24' bayliner. do any of these boats have strong advantages? i am interested in taking the Mississippi into the gulf and then looping south along the mexican coast up to the yucatan and i want the boat to be between 20 and 25 feet, single engine, small cabin with a head and galley. i am also looking at a 1987 20' bayliner capri, but it has a volvo 4 cylinder engine that i am worried about finding parts for. you can reply off list if you have any suggestions or recommendations. gSs ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:59:39 -0400 From: broadway jack Subject: Re: ISO: Netsurfer Ghost and A&M cover songs on CDR one time at band camp, david.skoglund@att.net (david.skoglund@att.net) said: >One was the 'Netsurfer Ghost' and the other was a bunch of cover songs >performed by Robyn during his time on A&M. I dimly recall that these were >recorded as potential B-sides or something. i don't recall the details of the a&m covers tape but i was the guy who put together the netsurfer ghost tape. if i remember correctly, it was a collection of the new songs which we figured would have been on the _surfer ghost_ album culled from various live performances in the 1994-5 timeframe. >Anyway, does anyone have these on CDR, and would you be willing to set up a >trade? I'd transfer my cassettes to CDR, but I figure that better sounding >copies (maybe even the masters) have already been digitized and are floating >around out there already. let me dig around and see if i can find the list of sources i used to make the tape. i'm pretty sure i still have it in a folder somewhere (hopefully it didn't get lost in the move from new jersey to connecticut). i'm fairly sure that some of the recordings were dat-sourced (though i did not use the dat masters to make the tape) so we could probably get all-digital transfers from the dats (which are, undoubtedly, in bayard's possession) to master a netsurfer ghost cd. as for the a&m covers tape, i'm fairly sure someone must have put that on cd by now. hopefully someone with a low generation copy of the tape or, better yet, the original cassette that was wormed out of a&m. i'd be interested in a copy of that on cd as well if it's available. woj ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 10:04:46 -0400 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: Re: Re: power boaters? gshell wrote: > > anyone here a power boater? only to match my power tie when one is at the Henley Regatta. (sorry; silly, obscure joke.) Stewart ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 10:05:12 -0400 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: Re: power boaters? gshell wrote: > > anyone here a power boater? only to match my power tie when one is at the Henley Regatta. (sorry; silly, obscure joke.) Stewart ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:26:51 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: omg the canadians are arguing On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 gshell@metronet.com wrote: > comfortable again. cities are impersonal, unhealthy, dangerous and > supported by a pop culture which i am starting to believe is fueled by > fear. Since I've often disagreed with Greg in the past, I think it's important to note that on his last point, I think he's absolutely correct. The endless bleatings of colored "alerts" from Homeland "Security" are just the latest, most obvious manifestation of this (really, now: the vast majority of the country is not in danger: Al Qaeda is not going to target the Iowa State Fair), and TV news, pop sociology, and point-scoring, moralistic politicians are among many others. The standard source to cite on all this is Barry Glasser's book _The Culture of Fear_. Ironically, I think Greg's perception of cities' "danger" is largely a function of that fear-based culture. Otherwise, I disagree w/Greg's assessment - but I think we all know that already. (Except for "impersonal" - but I *like* impersonal as a default.) - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::Never drive a car when you're dead:: __Tom Waits__ np: Steve Reich _Different Trains_ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 15:38:25 +0100 (BST) From: Michael R Godwin Subject: Reap Netscape http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3074031.stm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 07:48:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeff Dwarf Subject: reap Celia Cruz ===== "Being accused of hating America by people like Ann Coulter or Laura Ingraham is like being accused of hating children by Michael Jackson or (Cardinal) Bernard Law." -- anonymous . __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 10:48:53 -0400 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: Re: Reap Michael wrote: > > Netscape Netscape is dead, long live Mozilla. Mozilla does everything I could want from a browser; I'll spare you my ravings. Shame the Scots language pack hasn't been maintained. Stewart ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 08:00:57 -0700 From: Tom Clark Subject: Re: Cream on 7/17/03 4:59 AM, Michael R Godwin at M.R.Godwin@bath.ac.uk wrote: > Mumble mumble ... went to that show ... grunt grunt ... both houses ... > hmff hmff ... ashtray for the first house, seats for the second ... > That's so funny - I was truly going to throw in something like "I think I spotted Mike Godwin in the audience", but thought better of slagging on your advanced condition. ;) > PS You're dead right about the direction. Somehow or other Tony Palmer > managed to persuade the powers that he was a great director of rock music. > Did he say "four Marshall speakers, each one big enough to FILL the Albert > Hall with sound"? Or was that another film? Don't remember that part, but it's possible. - -tc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 08:43:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeff Dwarf Subject: Re: Classic...utterly classic Eb wrote: > Posted by a prog fan on Usenet today: > > A thing that bugs me about women is that they are not > opinionated in their music....I actually got a girlfriend > to enjoy Siberian Khatru, but she still held on to her U2 > albums. .... Maybe his problem is that he doesn't know what the word "opinionated" actually means. ===== "Being accused of hating America by people like Ann Coulter or Laura Ingraham is like being accused of hating children by Michael Jackson or (Cardinal) Bernard Law." -- anonymous . __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 12:49:14 -0400 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: reap Carol Shields ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 18:00:52 +0100 (BST) From: Michael R Godwin Subject: Re: Cream On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Tom Clark wrote: > That's so funny - I was truly going to throw in something like "I think I > spotted Mike Godwin in the audience", but thought better of slagging on your > advanced condition. ;) Thanks, Tom. Current daily medication stands at: Pulmicort: 2-4 puffs Serevent: 4 puffs Bricanyl: Occasional ad lib puff Azathioprine: 5 mg Antihistamine: 1 tab Elocon: Slap some on, possibly switch to Locoid in near future. - - Mike "Le NHS, c'est moi" Godwin PS re Steve Howe: Apart from Tomorrow (previously the In-Crowd), Steve was also in the Syndicats and Bodast prior to joining Yes. Oddly, the Syndicats don't appear to be related to the Syn, of '14-hour Technicolor Dream' fame, which featured Chris Squire. PPS No, I didn't make it to the 14HTD, I had an asthma attack. Damn and blast... n.p. The Thamesmen, Cups and Cakes ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 14:20:47 -0400 From: Caroline Smith Subject: Re: reap On Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 12:49 PM, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > Carol Shields > > I noticed that Indigo had a table full of her books on display for the buying public first thing this morning.... grr..... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 14:32:50 -0400 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: Re: reap Caroline wrote: > > I noticed that Indigo had a table full of her > books on display for the buying public first > thing this morning.... 'Twas ever thus. Remember the Dylan "Best Of" that was rushed out when he was poorly? Apparently that was put together and pressed up over a weekend. Stewart ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 14:10:06 -0500 (CDT) From: gshell@metronet.com Subject: Re: omg the scots are soft and buttery "....Ornamental swords are very popular especially with collectors while fantasy knives, similar to those used by action heroes and in popular computer games, appeal to the younger generation. "These weapons are easily bought in countries such as Spain and Portugal, however, in Scotland they are considered to be offensive weapons and potentially dangerous. "Most people do not intend any harm when they buy the weapons but we have to consider the consequences of these same weapons falling into the wrong hands, they could prove fatal." and "Dave Clark, head of detection for customs in Scotland, said: "The public should be warned that anyone caught trying to bring back offensive weapons will have their details passed to the police for intelligence purposes." - ------------------------------------------------------------------- Scotland Security! think they'll stop letting the scots visit "countries such as spain and portugal"? i wonder if cordless reciprocating and rotary saws are available in scotland? wow, chainsaws must be illegal. gSs ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 16:21:49 -0400 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: Re: omg the scots are soft and buttery gshell wrote: > > Scotland Security! Probably best to give some background on that. A few years back, there was a spate of random slashings across Scotland. It seems that neds (young male hooligans*) had taken to carrying huge knives as some kind of gang identification. Now carrying any kind of blade at all -- unless you can prove you need it for your daily business -- is likely to get you a jail term. You can be stopped and searched. Is there a problem with this? Stewart *: 'ned' has an interesting etymology. It's reckoned that it was the stereotypical name given to the sons of GI brides, the postwar "lone parent menace" in Scotland. Seems these young "Neds" were always getting called up before the PF, hence the name stuck. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 14:53:02 -0700 From: Tom Clark Subject: Spill the milk for health I guess it's never too late too start... http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/07/17/masturbate030717 - -tc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 17:42:07 -0500 (CDT) From: gshell@metronet.com Subject: Re: omg the scots are soft and buttery On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > It seems that neds (young male hooligans*) had taken to carrying huge > knives as some kind of gang identification. > > Now carrying any kind of blade at all -- unless you can prove you need > it for your daily business -- is likely to get you a jail term. You can > be stopped and searched. > Is there a problem with this? there is a difference between a pocket knife and a sword, but you should be allowed to have a big blade of any type in your home as an ornament or as a weapon as well be allowed to carry a knife. up until what seems like the week before last i would carry a 5" schrade on an airplane anywhere in the us. can a person be arrested in scotland for carrying a pocket knife? is a small pen knife also a jailable offense? does scottish law allow you to mail order a mace or broadsword for instance and would any of these be felonies? also, when you say you can be stopped and searched, does that mean at any time for any reason and anything they find can be used as evidence against you? are the laws similar in the rest of the uk and ireland as well? gSs ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 16:50:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: omg the scots are soft and buttery I am not saying I disagree with your sentiment, here, but I'm curious about you rationale. On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 gshell@metronet.com wrote: [snip] > you should be allowed to have a big blade of any type in your home as an > ornament or as a weapon as well be allowed to carry a knife. Why should you? > up until what seems like the week before last i would carry a 5" schrade > on an airplane anywhere in the us. And why'd you do that? > also, when you say you can be stopped and searched, does that mean at > any time for any reason and anything they find can be used as evidence > against you? While the inconvenience, embarrassment and harrassment potential of being stopped and searched at any time for any reason is pretty obvious on the surface, I think you nailed it on the head with the last bit about "anything they find can be used as evidence against you". That would be perhaps the most crucial distinction between a possibly dangerous policy and one that egregiously violated essential civil liberty. The culture of fear which you condemned, by the way, is perpetuated by those who carry weapons. I'm not the sort of person who would support CRIMINALIZING any sort of weapon ownership or carrying, but I sure as hell don't support actually doing it, either. A civil society requires trust. That means trusting people to have weapons and also trusting people to NOT have weapons. The very existence of police is a reminder that we live in a society without trust and respect. J. - -- _______________________________________________ Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 22:32:09 -0400 From: "Maximilian Lang" Subject: Run Ronnie Run One of the worst movies ever (and by people I truly admire) is making it's straight to video debut(bottom right): http://www.bobanddavid.com/ Max _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V12 #277 ********************************