From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V12 #276 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Wednesday, July 16 2003 Volume 12 : Number 276 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Ain't ain't a word and I ain't gonna use it ["Glen Uber" ] Introcucing: Mould, Kilbey, Wakeman and Howe!!! ["Rex.Broome" ] Re: whale rider ["ross taylor" ] RE: Cream [Tom Clark ] Re: Ain't ain't a word and I ain't gonna use it [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffre] Re: punk/new wave covers of prog [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Laugh, Just A Little ["Asshole Muthafucka" ] Re: Toronto/VW/iPod ["Stewart C. Russell" ] procol harum fan prodded to prog post [rtaylor@dlalaw.com] Re: procol harum fan prodded to prog post [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] ISO: Netsurfer Ghost and A&M cover songs on CDR [david.skoglund@att.net] Re: ISO: Netsurfer Ghost and A&M cover songs on CDR [Mike Swedene ] downtube shifter bosses [grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan)] Re: prog [grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan)] RE: downtube shifter bosses ["Brian Huddell" ] Classic...utterly classic [Eb ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:30:22 -0700 From: "Glen Uber" Subject: Re: Ain't ain't a word and I ain't gonna use it Rex.Broome earnestly scribbled: >"Ain't" just sounds better in your average pop chorus than most of the >genteel alternatives. I've often thought it would be funny to do a whole album of "grammatically correct" versions of popular songs. F'rinstance: Bo Diddley's "Whom Do You Love" Bob Dylan's "You Aren't Going Anywhere" & "It Isn't Me, Babe" Elvis Presley's "I Have Been Stung" & "All Shaken Up" The BTO classic, "You Haven't Seen Anything Yet" The Richard Marx tune, "It Doesn't Mean Anything" Fats Domino's "Isn't That A Shame?" That classic among classics, "(I Can't Get Any) Satisfaction" The Fats Waller standard, "I Am Not Misbehaving" I could duet with some lovely songstress on "There Is No Mountain High Enough" You get the idea... I'd also change the lyrics of "If I Fell" from: "From the very start that you would love me more than her" to "From the very start that you would love me more than she" The actual lyric could be interpreted as the singer wondering rather this girl that he wants to fall in love with will love him more than she will some other girl. In reality, the second lyric is what was intended/ And I'd change the lyric of "Run For Your Life" from: "I'd rather see you dead little girl than to be with another man" to "I'd rather see you dead little girl than to see you with another man." The actual lyric implies that the singer would rather be dead than to engage in some sort of homosexual activity. While this is unintentionally funny, it certainly diminishes the thrust (pun intended) of the song. You know my commute is too long when I start thinking of shit like this. - -- Cheers! - -g- "In nature, there are neither rewards nor punishments -- there are Consequences." - --R.G. Ingersoll ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:40:23 -0500 From: "Gene Hopstetter, Jr." Subject: Re: "silk bathrobe" phase randalljr wrote: > Rush wins simply because of their "silk bathrobe" phase. Didn't a lot of bands have "silk bathrobe" phases? Like in the '70s, I remember a lot of bands clad in silk, or more probably, satin. Scarves, long coats, suede boots, long feathered hair. ISTR a shudderingly bad video of Journey performing, ah, "Wheel In The Sky" clad in shiny satin. But they didn't use a Mellotron, so they're not prog. Actually, to be truly prog, you need *more than one* Mellotron, and a Harmonium, too. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:05:29 -0700 From: "Rex.Broome" Subject: Introcucing: Mould, Kilbey, Wakeman and Howe!!! JeFFrey: >>Anderson's stated he was going more for sound than sense, Ooohh. And that's Steve Kilbey's approach too. I threw out the term "jangle-prog" as a joke, but might it apply to the Church? What say you, good people? >> think I had a sort of Husker Du version of "Close to >>the Edge," and a Ramones take on "Lucky Man"... Anyone care to advance an argument for "Zen Arcade" as a prog record? >>I sort of meant to say that his voice is definitely an acquired taste, of the >>sort that not everyone is apt to acquire. >>Not dissimilar in that respect from a certain singer from the Bay >>Area beloved by myself, Miles, Rex... You guys like Huey Lewis, too? Awesome! ____ da9ve: >>("Prog-Boy(TM) and Prog-Boy(TM)'s Mellotron sold separately." >>- - Dougie Boucher) That reminds me... fegparents, Alt-Country Boy(TM)'s Paisley Telecaster has been recalled, as the Parsons-White Stringbender was found to be a choking hazard. - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:54:36 -0500 From: "Gene Hopstetter, Jr." Subject: Re: punk/new wave covers of prog Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: > I was once toying with the idea of making up punk/new wave covers of > prog > songs - only got as far as crossbreeding "Roundabout" with "Pump It Up" > (which is just perfect). I've been hearing in my mind recently a cover of "Tom Sawyer" done real slow and alt-country like, like in the style of Cowboy Junkies, or even torchier, like Elysian Fields. I think "Tom Sawyer" has a ripping chord progression, and if played real slow and acoustic, it would be gripping. Then again, XTC did cover a Captain Beefheart song, so anything's possible. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:55:26 -0700 From: "Glen Uber" Subject: Re: "silk bathrobe" phase Gene earnestly scribbled: >Actually, to be truly prog, you need *more than one* Mellotron, and a >Harmonium, too. And at least some kind of Moog, right? Preferably a Poly-Moog. - -- Cheers! - -g- "In nature, there are neither rewards nor punishments -- there are Consequences." - --R.G. Ingersoll ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 13:59:51 -0400 From: "ross taylor" Subject: Re: whale rider Thanks, James! Mercedes will be interested in the info. Ross Taylor Need a new email address that people can remember Check out the new EudoraMail at http://www.eudoramail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:01:04 -0700 From: Tom Clark Subject: RE: Cream on 7/16/03 4:03 AM, Dolph Chaney at dolphmusic@rcn.com wrote: > (After all, the gig that got Yes signed to Atlantic was > their opening set for Cream's last show.) I just watched the documentary of that gig on Trio Network last week. It was interesting from a historical perspective, but the concert coverage was horrible. I mean, do I want to just watch a close up of Jack Bruce's mouth for an entire song? And almost ten minutes of the program were of Baker's drum solo - snore. The individual interviews were interesting though. It was neat to see Clapton explaining his use of the different pickups and wah wah, plus how he incorporates his stock phrases. Although I expected at any moment he was going to say "these go to eleven!" You could tell Chris Guest watched the same footage while researching Spinal Tap. Anyone for tennis? - -tc ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 13:41:36 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: Ain't ain't a word and I ain't gonna use it On Wed, 16 Jul 2003, Glen Uber wrote: > Rex.Broome earnestly scribbled: > > >"Ain't" just sounds better in your average pop chorus than most of the > >genteel alternatives. "Ain't" should be fine, actually - at least when used for "am not," for which it *should* simply be accepted as a contraction. Just a historical curiosity that it isn't. > I've often thought it would be funny to do a whole album of > "grammatically correct" versions of popular songs. > > Bob Dylan's "You Aren't Going Anywhere" & "It Isn't Me, Babe" That should be "It Isn't I, Babe," shouldn't it - since "is" takes the nominative (subject) form? This is the problem with grammar viewed as a series of rules...it creates constructions no one has ever spoken, with a loss in clarity. Re your lyric changes - sometimes stupid grammar rules can get a writer into trouble. Case in point: Todd Rundgren's "It Is Incumbent Upon Us to Obtain for You an Adult Female" features the lines "talkin' 'bout things about that special one / they may be stupid but they sure are fun." Now, if you read "they may be stupid" as referring to women, you can see why some people might be upset by the lines. Of course, it's equally likely (and grammatically supported) that that line refers to the "things"... About Rex's point: yeah, I sorta get it...and often it is the case that "correct" grammar just doesn't scan well (those monosyllables work better than your "doesn't," "isn't" etc.). But given that the same writers often make me cringe by (pet peeve time) clumsily accenting a weak syllable (example that comes to mind: The Posies "My Big Mouth" - "don't MAKE me EXplain myself" ugh...), that reason doesn't seem very plausible. Also, it's perfectly possible to sing "doesn't" as a monosyllable (approx. "dun't"). I think it depends on the song. In a lot of cases, the writer's striving for a "street" feel (I hate that term) that's completely bogus, and the grammar thing is part of it. Okay, I'll stop my petty bitching now. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::Watson! Something's afoot...and it's on the end of my leg:: __Hemlock Stones__ np: Superchunk _Here's Where the Strings Come In_ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 13:45:44 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: punk/new wave covers of prog On Wed, 16 Jul 2003, Gene Hopstetter, Jr. wrote: > Then again, XTC did cover a Captain Beefheart song, so anything's > possible. But they did it note-for-note - which, with Beefheart, is quite an accomplishment. Segue to promoting the new Magic Band album, on which John "Drumbo" French apparently channels the Captain, doing some shockingly Beefheartesque vocals. Not quite the berserk edge of the originals, of course - but pretty damned fine. Too bad the drums are so poorly recorded - they sound like cardboard boxes half the time. (PS: I thought we'd gotten rid of all the Rush fans...*sigh*) - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::Drive ten thousand miles across America and you will know more about ::the country than all the institutes of sociology and political science ::put together. __Jean Baudrillard__ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:47:03 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: Toronto/VW/iPod >Well, hunting through the basement at the Community >Cycling Center revealed a reasonably sized lugged steel road frame with >horizontal dropouts. >Well, in the days of gruelling paint stripping, I found stamps on the >frame that indicated very good quality forged dropouts and butted Reynolds >531 tubeset! What are "dropouts"? Eb PS The original pressings of Ms. Longet's We've Only Just Begun album retitled her "Look What They Done to My Song, Ma" cover as "What Have They Done to My Song, Ma." Though she *sings* it as "Look what they've done to my song." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:29:31 -0700 From: "Asshole Muthafucka" Subject: Laugh, Just A Little isn't that how Reader's Digest heads its little joke sections? you know you're going to find a decent chortle from a story headlined "U.S. Chicken Giveaway Doesn't Fly in Fallouja". excerpt: "We would rather eat rocks than eat chickens from Americans," he spat out. "Even the poorest person in Fallouja doesn't want chickens from you." McGinn's unit was brusquely turned away at three of the four mosques it visited. The brushoff was yet another reminder for U.S. soldiers that hostility to the occupation runs deep in many quarters, and that it will take a lot more than frozen chickens to pacify Iraq. "Hey, it's a slow process, winning the hearts and minds of the people," McGinn said after driving with the spurned chickens through a hail of rocks and bricks thrown by neighborhood children. "But we're getting there, slowly but surely." . ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:31:35 -0400 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: Re: Toronto/VW/iPod Eb wrote: > > What are "dropouts"? The bit that you hope your wheel axles don't drop out of. For some crazy quality bike metalwork, Hetchins probably did the most creative stuff: Stewart (who seems to remember a band naming a song -- or at least being heavily influence by -- Reynolds 531 tubing. And no, they didn't have a 531 bong.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 16:42:06 -0400 From: rtaylor@dlalaw.com Subject: procol harum fan prodded to prog post Panting from running to catch up, even using my work email -- Procol Harum fans (all 24 that don't yet have Alzheimer's) generally count them selves as prog, & it works in some ways: Pretentiousness -- Semi-Latin name. At least *among* the first to use classical themes prominently. Early use of two keyboards -- Levon Helm and the Hawks may have had two before them, but played very different music then. Fancy drum kit -- no, but drummer was a bit of a star, widely noted for unusual phrasing, classically trained. Time signatures, theme albums, "medieval spacemen" outfits (incl. capes, hoods) -- check, check, check However a lot of this gets thrown off by their 60s roots. In 1968 practically everything was prog rock. The Who & Cream have been mentioned. They went in for weird chord changes then & grand allusions. Maybe "Some Velvet Morning" by Nancy Sinatra & Lee Hazelwood could be considered ... My guess is that prog isn't really identifiable until the 70s, which is when lots of other genres got most clearly locked in (country-rock, jazz-rock-fusion ...) Which makes me wonder, is prog mostly on the classical side & fusion the jazz side? No, King Crimson is quite jazzy, so, I think, is Gentle Giant, & "jazz noise" Zappa was at least included on that Rhino comp of prog music. But there does seem to be a dividing line between prog rock and fusion. JeFF-- > I really don't hear Bruce's voice as all that high-register "For Isengard" or "Victoria Sage." I guess it's a pseudo Curtis Mayfield falsetto. But talk about genre busting -- "Morning Story" on Harmony Row sounds exactly like a cross between early Pink Floyd & the Band, "Interstellar Overdrive"/"Old Jawbone." - ---- "Ain't" -- There's also the time-honored tradition of people speaking differently in different social situations -- most notably in the U.S. middle-class African Americans wanting to avoid embarrassing lower-class friends, but it works w/ other folks as well. Plus, if, even as a solidly middle-class kid, you hung with kids from, well, different backgrounds, it's only *natural* to adjust your speech to fit in, and then you have a *natural* history of different kinds of speech. "Ain't is a perfectly useful abbreviation, it's only wrong by convention. - --- Thanks to Chris Gross for the bookstore tip. I'd usually have made it by 2nd Story by this point in the week. Hell, most of the records will be gone already, but the poetry should be down to the right price. :) Ross Taylor "the limits of my language mean the limits of my world" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 16:04:42 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: procol harum fan prodded to prog post On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 rtaylor@dlalaw.com wrote: > Fancy drum kit -- no, but drummer was a bit of a star, widely noted for > unusual phrasing, classically trained. Who let all my pet peeves loose? Anyway, "classically trained" is one of 'em: I'm never sure (because journalists rarely elaborate) exactly what that means: graduate degree from Juilliard, or two years of piano lessons? I hate it anyway - the notion of "training," as if otherwise they'd drool on their keyboards or piddle behind the amps... The funny thing is, despite rock's generally anti-elitist stance (to a fault, in fact), the phrase is most often used either matter-of-factly or as praise - weird, when you think about it. It's also sort of culturally prejudicial: some guy who hung out with Muddy Waters for years to learn to play the blues - sure as hell is "classically trained" within the genre, but of course is never referred to that way. > However a lot of this gets thrown off by their 60s roots. In 1968 > practically everything was prog rock. The Who & Cream have been mentioned. > They went in for weird chord changes then & grand allusions. Maybe "Some > Velvet Morning" by Nancy Sinatra & Lee Hazelwood could be considered ... > > My guess is that prog isn't really identifiable until the 70s, which is when > lots of other genres got most clearly locked in (country-rock, > jazz-rock-fusion ...) Yes, I think so. Even early Yes (the first two, underheard albums) slot fairly neatly next to vaguely folky, psychedelic records contemporary with them. They cover two Buffalo Springfield songs, for instance - listen to the first BS album and the first Yes album consecutively and, if Anderson's voice doesn't just signify "prog" to you so you can't hear it otherwise, see if they're not pretty close stylistically. > Which makes me wonder, is prog mostly on the classical side & fusion the > jazz side? No, King Crimson is quite jazzy, so, I think, is Gentle Giant, & > "jazz noise" Zappa was at least included on that Rhino comp of prog music. > But there does seem to be a dividing line between prog rock and fusion. The usual notion is that "prog" connotes rockers incorporating devices from "serious" music, whereas "fusion" connotes jazzers incorporated devices from rock. Of course, this is limiting: Mahavishnu Orchestra used reams of ideas from contemporary classical, yet they're usually cited as an early fusion band. Crimson's jazzy in a very Brit/Euro way - that is to say, in a way that reg'lar jazz people probably don't hear - and primarily on _Islands_ and a little bit of _Lizard_. They were improvisatory, to be sure...but so were the Grateful Dead, whom no one thinks of as jazz, or fusion (although some of the stuff on _Wake of the Flood_ is pretty close). I'm familiar only with 2-3 Gentle Giant albums, and they strike me as funkier than jazzy (the electric piano lick from, I think, "Free Hand" was sampled by some rappers a few years back - or so I read on the web once). Zappa is, as usual, a genre of one: arguably, his work was among the earliest to make use of several traits that would later exemplify prog, but he's never been just a progger, just a rocker, just a jazzer, even just a classical composer - but all of those, often all at once. I suppose it's obvious, but I think his reputation will only grow (at least that of his best stuff...quality control was sometimes a bit lacking there). - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::flag on the moon...how'd it get there?:: ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:24:46 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: procol harum fan prodded to prog post >Yes, I think so. Even early Yes (the first two, underheard albums) slot >fairly neatly next to vaguely folky, psychedelic records contemporary with >them. They cover two Buffalo Springfield songs, for instance One Buffalo Springfield song, I thought. And in a similar vein, add the Beatles ("Every Little Thing"), the Byrds ("I See You") and Richie Havens ("No Opportunity Necessary, No Experience Needed"). I have the first three Procol Harum records. I'd call them more "proto-prog" than prog itself (a la Moody Blues), but I like them fine and don't feel at all "guilty" about owning them. And the last time I pulled out A Salty Dog, I liked it better than I previously recalled. I've never heard the first two Yes albums, beyond the seven tracks found on the Yesterdays compilation. I'd be curious to hear 'em, though I'm hardly expecting to be thrilled. Eb ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 21:36:42 +0000 From: david.skoglund@att.net Subject: ISO: Netsurfer Ghost and A&M cover songs on CDR I was doing some cleaning in the basement and got to looking through a box of old cassette tapes. I found a couple of Robyn tapes I got through the list back in the 1993/1994 time frame. One was the 'Netsurfer Ghost' and the other was a bunch of cover songs performed by Robyn during his time on A&M. I dimly recall that these were recorded as potential B-sides or something. Anyway, does anyone have these on CDR, and would you be willing to set up a trade? I'd transfer my cassettes to CDR, but I figure that better sounding copies (maybe even the masters) have already been digitized and are floating around out there already. - -- david.skoglund@att.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:42:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Swedene Subject: Re: ISO: Netsurfer Ghost and A&M cover songs on CDR I have both of these... email me off list to get them :0) Mike - --- david.skoglund@att.net wrote: > I was doing some cleaning in the basement and got to > looking through a box of > old cassette tapes. I found a couple of Robyn tapes > I got through the list back > in the 1993/1994 time frame. > > One was the 'Netsurfer Ghost' and the other was a > bunch of cover songs > performed by Robyn during his time on A&M. I dimly > recall that these were > recorded as potential B-sides or something. > > Anyway, does anyone have these on CDR, and would you > be willing to set up a > trade? I'd transfer my cassettes to CDR, but I > figure that better sounding > copies (maybe even the masters) have already been > digitized and are floating > around out there already. > > -- > david.skoglund@att.net ===== - --------------------------------------------- Rebuilding my websight: http://www34.brinkster.com/bflomidy/ _____________________________________________ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:55:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: Toronto/VW/iPod On Wed, 16 Jul 2003, Eb wrote: > >Well, hunting through the basement at the Community Cycling Center > >revealed a reasonably sized lugged steel road frame with horizontal > >dropouts. Well, in the days of gruelling paint stripping, I found > >stamps on the frame that indicated very good quality forged dropouts > >and butted Reynolds 531 tubeset! > > What are "dropouts"? Dropouts are the proper term for the rear axle slots that face forward or down. The ones that face backward are properly called "track ends", I believe. They are not dropouts. You'll find that modern bikes built for a rear derailleur have vertical dropouts (so that when you loosen the rear axle nuts [or, more commonly today, quick-release skewer] and lift the rear of the bike, the wheel just falls out. This supposedly makes it easier to change a flat and less likely for you to misalign your rear wheel and mess up your shifting. However, it also makes it nigh impossible to run singlespeed or fixed-gear unless you carefully plan out your chain length and cog and chainring teeth to get good chain tension. (Horizontal dropouts allow for chain tension to be adjusted by placing the axle in a different position within the dropout, given deep enough dropouts, natch.) > PS The original pressings of Ms. Longet's We've Only Just Begun album > retitled her "Look What They Done to My Song, Ma" cover as "What Have > They Done to My Song, Ma." Though she *sings* it as "Look what they've > done to my song." It's all about giving the audience what they think they want, I guess. J. - -- _______________________________________________ Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:47:38 +1200 From: grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan) Subject: downtube shifter bosses >Well, in the days of gruelling paint stripping, I found stamps on the >frame that indicated very good quality forged dropouts and butted Reynolds >531 tubeset! I ground and cut off the cable guides and downtube shifter >bosses, but I'm not too skilled at such thing and it shows. The main thing is to keep the traming parallel. If you can get some hand-ground tappin reducers (the aluminium ones are no good - go for plated zinc), then you should be able to get the overhand nadgers running very sweetly. Some people swear by the Allezzuri tappin reducers, but I've always found the Gewachten ones had an added bite that is really noticeable on long uphill climbs. On no account should you go for the cheap Lefebvre ones. They grimp badly and frequently go out of alignment, which means you risk stripping the fardling cogs. Bulleid wheels are recommended, too. James James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.- =-.-=-.-=-.- You talk to me as if from a distance .-=-.-=-.-=-. -=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time .-=- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:48:19 +1200 From: grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan) Subject: Re: prog >Thing is, most often the Beatles' odd chord sequences *worked* and didn't >strike anyone other than musicians as being odd. (Ditto phrasings - who was >just talking about "Yesterday"'s seven-bar phrases?) Prog put odd >chords/rhythms/meters right up front as badge of honor, and dared you to >say, no that doesn't sound right - those were just your ears, too set in >their mainstream ways. 'Sides which (as you note), they were untraditional >for rock - but not for other musics (except for very odd things like some of >the chords in "Strawberry Fields Forever" or that hammering flatted ninth in >"I Want to Tell You"). > >I exaggerate to some degree...but one of the striking things about some >prog, esp. when it's still more or less song-based like Genesis, is how the >modulations seem utterly unlike what traditional harmonic practice might >suggest - and how, when they work, they add an effective mysteriousness to >the music. (Although a lot of post-Debussy composers used similar effects - >speaking of "what the fuck is that chord doing there?" reactions at the time >among trad musicians.) > >> But who the hell cares? > >May I suggest that instead of criticizing those who care, you think about >what you might do to improve the...ah, the hell with it. > >I certainly wasn't trying to police musical boundaries! Anyway, the Beatles >pretty much predate prog - and are, of course, a necessary antecedent to it, >from which a whole lot of prog derives & w/o which prog would be impossible. all you say is true, of course. I think the crux of the biscuit is that bit about the Beatles predating prog but being a necessary antecedent to it. Prog developed, at least in part, out of listening to stuff like "A day in the life" and I'd bet that side two of Abbey Road, coming as it did at about the same time that prog was in its infancy, was also a major influence. If you're listening to this song, and you think the chords are going wrong, you're correct - they wrote it like that. Ken I added: >As for art-rock or progressive rock: Yes, Genesis, Gentle Giant, >Renaissance, Nektar, King Crimson, ELP, ELO - it does seem to be everything >wrong with rock in the late 70's which punk came to clean up. well, they're prog, sure, but I don't see anything art-rock in them. I've seen the term art rock used for groups like Sparks, and 10CC, and also for the first flowering of new wave (early XTC, Talking Heads, Pere Ubu, etc). But prog's completely different. >>>The Screaming Trees, "prog"? Pshaw. > >James has averred this several times, and I have the same reaction. actually, I only said it once, to point out that bands with "prog rock tendencies" don't all happen to be prog rock bands. I tend to agree more with Rex B's assertion that particular songs are within a genre than musicians. "Airscape" is jangle pop, as is "Flesh no. 1" - but is "Uncorrected personality traits"? James PS - it was me with the odd measures in Yesterday, too. I think I've been reading too much of Alan W. Pollack's musicology site. James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.- =-.-=-.-=-.- You talk to me as if from a distance .-=-.-=-.-=-. -=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time .-=- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 19:02:14 -0500 From: "Brian Huddell" Subject: RE: downtube shifter bosses James: > The main thing is to keep the traming parallel. If you can get some > hand-ground tappin reducers (the aluminium ones are no good - > go for plated > zinc), then you should be able to get the overhand nadgers > running very > sweetly. Some people swear by the Allezzuri tappin reducers, but I've > always found the Gewachten ones had an added bite that is > really noticeable > on long uphill climbs. On no account should you go for the > cheap Lefebvre > ones. They grimp badly and frequently go out of alignment, > which means you > risk stripping the fardling cogs. Bulleid wheels are recommended, too. This is Lewis Carroll, right? +brian ('Twas nadger in the fardling cogs) in New Orleans ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 17:09:49 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Classic...utterly classic Posted by a prog fan on Usenet today: A thing that bugs me about women is that they are not opinionated in their music....I actually got a girlfriend to enjoy Siberian Khatru, but she still held on to her U2 albums. She said she enjoyed Tull....so I gave her Minstrel in the gallery and Songs from the wood in a cd. She thought it was an overkill. Now we arent talking about NWW or Area....just mainstream prog. So, in conclusion, prog doesnt help you pick up chicks. Nor does a good book collection. Nor the fact that you may have earned several degrees. The bottomline is I dont know how to attract women. ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V12 #276 ********************************