From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V12 #259 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Wednesday, July 9 2003 Volume 12 : Number 259 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Multiple emails (was: Re: A Ph.D. by any other name...) [Jeffrey with] Wait Wait, Don't Eat That Cheese [Tom Clark ] Raw Records ["Brian" ] Re: Raw Records [Ken Weingold ] Re: Byrds. [Michael R Godwin ] more icky childbirth stuff ["Natalie Jane" ] Re: Byrds. [Tom Clark ] RE: Multiple emails (was: Re: A Ph.D. by any other name...) [Miles Goosen] Re: the Gaelic [Groove Puppy ] Why did I bother? And yet here it is. ["Rex.Broome" ] A feel-good story from W. Va. ["Glen Uber" ] Re: Playin' solitaire 'til dawn [Miles Goosens ] Re: Multiple emails (was: Re: A Ph.D. by any other name...) [Jeffrey with] Re: more icky childbirth stuff [Eb ] newsflash: Britney no virgin [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: Multiple emails (was: Re: A Ph.D. by any other name...) [Miles Goosen] Re: Multiple emails (was: Re: A Ph.D. by any other name...) [Eb ] once more into the placenta [Miles Goosens ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 12:37:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: Multiple emails (was: Re: A Ph.D. by any other name...) On Wed, 9 Jul 2003, Ken Weingold wrote: > On Wed, Jul 9, 2003, Sebastian Hagedorn wrote: > > This is strictly a matter of taste. I know a lot of people who prefer it > > this way, for various reasons. You can't expect me to keep track of who > > wants to be cc'ed and who doesn't! I myself mostly use a mail server that > > does automatic duplicate supression. So if you say we should use "better > > email software", I could tell you the same thing ... > > Well the email client is totally under my control. Same is not > necessarily true for the server. And why would people want to be CCd > on emails to a list they are subscribed to? Narcissism? To see if anyone's responding directly to them? What I do (usually) is just use the standard "reply" but then delete the resulting "to" line (the writer) and replace it w/the list alias. Takes an extra second - saves people from getting multiple copies. I think that that would work well as a default behavior. If anyone wants to have replies to their e-mail also directed to them personally, they could always say so. I suppose some people filter their e-mails and give higher priority to those responding to their own e-mails - how that's different from the "narcissism" answer I'll leave to others. - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::I suspect that the first dictator of this country will be called "Coach":: __William Gass__ ps to Greg: See, if you weren't so ornery in making assumptions about other people (like accusing my wife of being a tv-addicted drone), maybe people wouldn't make assumptions about you. If you argue civilly and logically, people will argue civilly and logically w/you. If you're off-the-cuff and ad hominem...right back atcha. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 10:38:01 -0700 From: Tom Clark Subject: Wait Wait, Don't Eat That Cheese Real actual Robyn content! I was just listening to last Saturday's (7/5) episode of NPR's "Wait Wait Don't Tell Me", and right after the limericks bit they played about 20 seconds of Cheese Alarm. The last limerick had something to do with cheese mites or something. There you go. - -tc ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 09:50:38 -0800 From: "Brian" Subject: Raw Records http://www.damagedgoods.co.uk/rawrecords/ No Soft Boys? - -edshellock emmet - -- Brian nightshadecat@mailbolt.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 13:57:01 -0400 From: Ken Weingold Subject: Re: Raw Records On Wed, Jul 9, 2003, Brian wrote: > http://www.damagedgoods.co.uk/rawrecords/ > > No Soft Boys? Seems not, but they do have J Church. Makes up for it. - -Ken ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 18:59:37 +0100 (BST) From: Michael R Godwin Subject: Re: Byrds. On Wed, 9 Jul 2003, Rex.Broome wrote: > Hmmm... I thought Skip Battin died years ago. I think there are now more > dead Byrds than living ones, and shockingly Crosby's one of the ones who's > still kickin'. > > Alive: McGuinn, Crosby Hillman, Gene Parsons > Dead: Clark, Clarke, Gram Parsons, White, Battin, and I think York... Substantial Byrds article in this month's 'Uncut', including recent interviews. Hillman claims that his 'Time Between' was the first country rock song. Also includes a review from someone who saw them in the UK on their disastrous 1965 tour and said they were, er, disastrous. Unfortunately the accompanying "these tracks by these bands were influenced by the Byrds" CD does not include either QoE or Bells of Rhymney by Robyn. - - Mike Godwin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 11:00:03 -0700 From: "Natalie Jane" Subject: more icky childbirth stuff >I'm not even gonna get into routine episeotomies. My wife was violently >opposed to having one and man, I can't understand how any woman wouldn't >be. >That there is cutting up your *stuff*. One of my friends made a good point about episiotomies. If you try to tear a bedsheet, it's really hard... but if you make a small cut in the cloth, you can tear it really easily. The same goes for episiotomies - a small cut can turn into a huge tear. Routine episiotomies are done for the convenience of the doctor, because they're easier to stitch up than a tear. There's also the utterly repulsive custom of the "daddy stitch" - the doctor puts in an extra stitch to make the woman "as tight as a virgin." This causes all sorts of infections and other nastiness for the woman later on, of course. I'm sincerely hoping this custom has died out, but I don't know for sure. In related news, I passed my antepartum exam! Yay! Now, where's my toy placenta?? n. _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 11:03:33 -0700 From: Tom Clark Subject: Re: Byrds. on 7/9/03 10:59 AM, Michael R Godwin at M.R.Godwin@bath.ac.uk wrote: > Substantial Byrds article in this month's 'Uncut', including recent > interviews. Hillman claims that his 'Time > Between' was the first country rock song. Also includes a review from > someone who saw them in the UK on their disastrous 1965 tour and said they > were, er, disastrous. Unfortunately the accompanying "these tracks by > these bands were influenced by the Byrds" CD does not include either QoE > or Bells of Rhymney by Robyn. The Byrds already recorded Bells of Rhymney, right? Isn't it a Pete Seeger song? - -tc ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 13:14:26 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: RE: Multiple emails (was: Re: A Ph.D. by any other name...) At 10:10 AM 7/9/2003 -0700, Jason Brown \(Echo Services Inc\) wrote: >> Why am I being CCd on these mails when I'm already on the list, so I >> get two of each? If you don't want to have to change the TO field to >> the list address for each one and your email software can't function >> the way you need, making you do group replies every time, obviously >> you need better email software. > >I asked this list along time ago why there was no reply-to header >designating the list, which is all other mailing lists I am on have and >I think the fegmaniax digest has as well, and I received a cryptic reply >about how this avoids Mudge or some techno jargon like that which made >no sense to me. "Reply-to" set to sender: sending to list becomes a voluntary act "Reply-to" set to list: all kinds of off-list/personal stuff ends up accidentally going to list, causing much rancor, especially on super-chatty lists like this'n I *hate* lists where "reply-to" defaults to the list. I hope this is something about Fegmaniax that never changes. It's "munge," btw. later, AMiles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 11:16:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Groove Puppy Subject: Re: the Gaelic Stewart sed > get tae fuck! I enjoyed my time in small-town > Scotland. And no, I haven't got to the "rosy glow" > expat stage, whih probably shouldn't happen for > another ten years or so. I'm actually considering attending the Scottish games in Pleasanton, CA this year. Not sure why since I'm not a highlander anyway. Maybe the lure of the sheep! Or the haggis burrittos! Also waited 'til I'd been living outside of Scotland for over a year before getting a thistle tattooed on my leg. Scotland is definitely better viewed from a distance. And through the bottom of a bottle of Sierra Nevada. > While spotting the Flying Scotsman today, I noticed > that most of the Pullman cars were named > 'Phoenix', 'Audrey' and so on, but the first one > was named 'Albannach Sgiathach'. Gaelic, obviously, > but what do it mean? > Is it a straight translation of 'Flying Scotsman'? Yes. Albannach - Scotsman Sgiath - Wing, shield, target Sgiathalaich - Flutter, ply the wings from http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MF2/index.html > PS What constitutes a 'small town'? I've lived in a > city of 90,000 people for years, but I've seen > others refer to 120,000 (which is definitely > big to me) as small. I would have said 20,000 max. My home town is Elderslie (birthplace of Mel Gibson). According to the 1991 census the population was 5,300. (Probably not a Gaelic speaker among them.) And blow me if the 21st century doesn't find them with a web presence at www.elderslie.org.uk. Only a slight mention of Mel tho. (H) ye can keep yur big toons tae yersel' np - Crystal Method "Tweekend" ===== CHUCKHOLE All that great punk rock taste with only half the calories. http://clix.to/chuckhole http://www.mp3.com/chuckhole __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 11:39:32 -0700 From: "Rex.Broome" Subject: Why did I bother? And yet here it is. I thought you were a doctoral "candidate" when going for your PhD... just to give them the feeling they're gonna have to kiss more ass to achieve their goal than a mere student. ____ gSs: >> i did work on the garden at about 3am last year, right before i left for canada. You're wasting your time... gardening at night, it's never worked. >>mainstream advertising sedation doesn't come into effect normally until >>after you become restless and uneasy while waiting in a line for lottery >>tickets or heat and serve lasagne. I've come to the conclusion that you've never been to a city of any size or that you have and saw it only through the lens of your preconceptions. What you're describing is some kind of facile sub-Stepford Wives suspense picture, or the lyrics to a particularly un-nuanced pop protest song written by some earnest Sting wannabe in 1987. I've never been so distressed while waiting in one of these imaginary mile-long lines to buy Doritos that I had a psychotic break that made me believe that Britney Spears was right and I needed Pepsi as well. Nor has anyone I know in this big-ass city. >>and has nothing to do with your innacurate diagnosis of my >>perceived paranoia or self-centerdness. it has far more to do with my >>desire for personal independance and to live where and how i choose as >>well as being unrestricted and not dependant on any of the services that >>have become irreplaceably integrated parts in the lives of the vast >>majority of people who live in the city or the suburbs, big town or small. Can you see how a lot of people would see those as very nearly the same thing? Or that paying the water and power bill doesn't mean one is automatically a media-saturated insect worker incapable of his or her own thoughts and decisions? If we were really so submissive to Big Brother, would we even be debating your assertions? And the personal swipes aren't winning any converts, either. - -Rex, having a Quailian moment, I guess (BTW just got an invite to a friend's wedding which gave you the option of attendind "In Person" or "In Spirit", and then allowed you to check the form your spirit would take. One of the options was "Quail". Is that a more popular spirit guide than I realized?) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 13:40:35 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: dim lights, small city At 04:15 PM 7/9/2003 +0100, Michael R Godwin wrote: >PS What constitutes a 'small town'? I've lived in a city of 90,000 people >for years, but I've seen others refer to 120,000 (which is definitely big >to me) as small. I would have said 20,000 max. I grew up in an unincorporated town of 1,000 max (as per the 1980 census - population was down to 500 by 1990), and the "biggest" places we went on a weekly basis had about 7,000 people each. So when I'd watch game shows and see contestants say during their introductions, "Chuck, I come from a small town of 300,000," it'd blow my little mind. People from the East Coast Mega-Lo-Metroplex, Chicago, the Bay Area, and L.A. who move here to Nashville (over 1 mill in the MSA) always call it a "small city." later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 11:35:14 -0700 From: "Glen Uber" Subject: A feel-good story from W. Va. Rex, do you know where Beckley is? - -- Cheers! - -g- "You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer." - --Frank Zappa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 13:48:00 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: A feel-good story from W. Va. At 11:35 AM 7/9/2003 -0700, Glen Uber wrote: >Rex, do you know where Beckley is? > > Hey, I'm chagrined here. later, Miles "Beckley was only an hour away" Goosens ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 11:55:13 -0700 From: "Glen Uber" Subject: Playin' solitaire 'til dawn James Dignan earnestly scribbled: >Reminds me of a conversation I was having recently on songs about wanking. >"Pictures of Lily" and "Turning Japanese" were the obvious, but I'd >forgotten ones like Billy Bragg's "St Swithin's Day". "I Touch Myself" by the Divinyls "Dancing With Myself" by Billy Idol "Longview" by Green Day "Love the One You're With" Stephen Stills "Pump It Up" by Elvis Costello - -- Cheers! - -g- "Soylens Viridis Homines Est" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 14:57:44 -0400 From: Ken Weingold Subject: Re: Playin' solitaire 'til dawn On Wed, Jul 9, 2003, Glen Uber wrote: > James Dignan earnestly scribbled: > > >Reminds me of a conversation I was having recently on songs about wanking. > >"Pictures of Lily" and "Turning Japanese" were the obvious, but I'd > >forgotten ones like Billy Bragg's "St Swithin's Day". > > "I Touch Myself" by the Divinyls > "Dancing With Myself" by Billy Idol > "Longview" by Green Day > "Love the One You're With" Stephen Stills > "Pump It Up" by Elvis Costello Orgasm Addict by The Buzzcocks? - -Ken ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 14:07:10 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: Playin' solitaire 'til dawn At 02:57 PM 7/9/2003 -0400, Ken Weingold wrote: >On Wed, Jul 9, 2003, Glen Uber wrote: >> James Dignan earnestly scribbled: >> >> >Reminds me of a conversation I was having recently on songs about wanking. >> >"Pictures of Lily" and "Turning Japanese" were the obvious, but I'd >> >forgotten ones like Billy Bragg's "St Swithin's Day". >> >> "I Touch Myself" by the Divinyls >> "Dancing With Myself" by Billy Idol >> "Longview" by Green Day >> "Love the One You're With" Stephen Stills >> "Pump It Up" by Elvis Costello > >Orgasm Addict by The Buzzcocks? "She Bop" by Cyndy Lauper. "Give It To the Soft Boys" ("photographs don't smell") Haven't we done this lil' song game before? later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 12:04:24 -0700 From: "Jason R. Thornton" Subject: Re: more icky childbirth stuff At 11:00 AM 7/9/2003 -0700, Natalie Jane wrote: >One of my friends made a good point about episiotomies. If you try to >tear a bedsheet, it's really hard... but if you make a small cut in the >cloth, you can tear it really easily. The same goes for episiotomies - a >small cut can turn into a huge tear. OK, I'll admit I know close to nothing about these particular medical procedures, but I can't believe you wouldn't want something, be it drugs or surgery, if you were to give birth to one of these: http://apnews.myway.com/article/20030709/D7S64D300.html On a completely unrelated note, my friend Elaine narrowly missed being beheaded by a samurai sword. A few of us were headed to Vegas a couple of weeks ago. I was waiting around at my buddy Randy's place in Irvine when Elaine called us and asked if she wanted us to stop off at the Albertson's near Randy's place to pick up some bottles of water for the drive. We told her no, luckily, for if she had, she would have been there at the exact time this went down: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20030630/ts_alt_afp/us_crime_030630184843 - --Jason "Only the few know the sweetness of the twisted apples." - Sherwood Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 14:07:51 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: Multiple emails (was: Re: A Ph.D. by any other name...) On Wed, 9 Jul 2003, Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: > What I do (usually) is just use the standard "reply" but then delete the > resulting "to" line (the writer) and replace it w/the list alias. Takes an > extra second - saves people from getting multiple copies. > > I think that that would work well as a default behavior. That is, as a lister's default behavior - *not* as the list's default behavior (for reasons Miles "I Love All Musicians Named Scott Miller" Goosens outlines). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 12:12:20 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: more icky childbirth stuff >Gnat: >One of my friends made a good point about episiotomies. I've been wracking my brains, but I just can't recall any time when I could have said these words. >GShell/Unabomber: >all cities are bad Lordy. I was supposed to see those Trachtenburg Family Singers last night (or whatever they're called), and I just couldn't get my crap together early enough to get out the door. Blah. :( Eb ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 14:23:14 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: newsflash: Britney no virgin On Wed, 9 Jul 2003, Rex.Broome wrote: > You're wasting your time... gardening at night, it's never worked. Ah, what does that Stipe guy know? > a psychotic break that made me believe that Britney Spears was right Britney Spears is right, though, about one thing (from a story yesterday at yahoo.com): - ---- As for reports linking Spears to Irish heart throb Colin Farrell (news), she said: "Yes I kissed him. Of course I did! He's the cutest, hottest thing in the world -- wooh! He's such a bad boy. But it was nothing serious." The kiss left her with a "craving" for more of the same. "I haven't had a boy in a really long time ... just a kiss, man. Just a kiss would be nice." For now, Spears said, she's hunting far afield for a new beau. "Someplace like, oh, Wisconsin - say, an older man, about 41 or so, with a closely trimmed graying beard. And he should like a lot of music I've never heard of. He should post way too often to online mailing lists. And it would be so refreshing for someone to love me only for my body, and not for my music." - ----- Hey, I was surprised too. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::I'M ONLY AS LARGE AS AN ANT AND I'M HIDING INSIDE YOUR CAR:: __cryptic placemat phrase, Madison WI, 1986__ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 14:38:02 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: Multiple emails (was: Re: A Ph.D. by any other name...) At 02:07 PM 7/9/2003 -0500, Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: >That is, as a lister's default behavior - *not* as the list's default >behavior (for reasons Miles "I Love All Musicians Named Scott Miller" >Goosens outlines). The All-Music Guide finally got 'em mostly straight a couple of years ago, so now it can be told that there are seven separate music biz Scott Millers (not counting Elvis' Scotty Miller) in the AMG: #1: Game Theory/Loud Family guy (beloved to some, including me; eh'd by others) #2: drummer for Agent Orange (who?) #3: drummer on what appears to be a lot of '70s r&b (who?) #4: '90s jazz person (who?) #5: producer/engineer on some rap stuff and Jill Olson's first album (!) #6: someone who had something to do with a CHRISTMAS IN THE COUNTRY seasonal album #7: ex-V-Roy, leader of the mighty Commonwealth, Rex needs all his stuff (love!) However, they think that the Scott Miller in 6 String Drag was Scott Miller #1 (it's really an 8th Scott Miller), as well as the Scott Miller who played on the second John & Mary album (a 9th one). There are probably even more of them. later, Miles "I have to do something about my name. You can't swing a dead rat or a Nashville cat without hitting a Scott Miller." - - Scott Miller #7 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 12:37:15 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: Multiple emails (was: Re: A Ph.D. by any other name...) >#1: Game Theory/Loud Family guy Wait...that's the same guy in *both* bands? I just figured those bands coincidentally had similar shortcomings! Here's something totally stupid: http://www.reincarnationresearch.com/ Eb ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 13:06:47 -0700 From: "Marc Holden" Subject: OK >Well, 7-11 is the largest chain (and the original model, I'd figure) of >franchised "covenience stores" in the US. Think the Quick-E-Mart on the >Simpsons. There are other big chains (AM-PM, Circle-K etc.) but they seem >to vary regionally, whereas 7-11's are universal. They are so called >because those were their original hours, but I think all of them are pretty >much open 24 hours now. Just in case you really needed this information--they have Circle Ks in Hong Kong, but the name didn't get translated well. They still use the logo with the K inside the circle, but call them "OK" stores. Later, Marc "I hope that when I die people say, "That guy sure owed me a lot of money". Jack Handy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 16:33:53 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: once more into the placenta Since my "don't talk to me about the placenta, and please for the love of God don't show me the placenta" comments probably had a lot to do with prolonging the placenta discussion, I guess I should attempt to explain how close anyone got to what I was trying say in the first place. j to the b to the j: >I know that Robyn's music appeals to many of us because alot of his lyrics >deal with reality by side-stepping it, or draping it in surreal imagery, >but you people who find childbirth disgusting are from another planet. > >Childbirth was not invented by George Romero or Wes Craven. It is a >natural process. Yes, there is some blood involved. Yes, there is goo. >But this is life we're talking about. Its how _most_ of you got here. As far as I'm concerned, you can see all the placenta(s?) you wanna. :-) As others have said (and I'm about to quote some of 'em), just because it's natural doesn't mean that everyone wants to see it. Michael Wells: >I think the original issue was seeing 'related placenta'(that involved >in the birth of your own children) vs 'random stranger placenta' (like >that which Miles caught on TV). That's part of it, sure - involuntary exposure to something you find gross. But there's more... Glen to the U: >>So is taking a dump after eating or puking after getting drunk or jerking >>off into your girlfriend's hair after a blowjob, but those things don't >>ever seem to come up in everyday conversation. Why is that? That's even more of it. As Jason put it in replying to Rex: >Well, we weren't really comparing the two or suggesting they were >equivalent emotional experiences, we were merely countering the notion that >one shouldn't be grossed out by something just because it's a "natural >process." Nature isn't always beautiful by our acquired standards, nor is >it something I necessarily want to see all the time. There ya go. Most of what I was trying to say! And well said. >Then again, for the >most part, it really isn't something we should get too freaked out about. Now that ties back into the "voluntary" vs. "involuntary" exposure to said processes -- I know they're necessary for human life to continue, but personally I don't want to see, think, or hear about these particular substances unless it's absolutely necessary. So the TLC promo or, to a certain extent, stumbling upon this discussion on Feg constitutes (for me) unnecessary contemplation of placinta(e/s). Tom: >It's not just the baby shows either. I'm cruising through an episode of >"Junkyard Wars" and the next thing I see is a sliced open leg in an ad for >"The Operation". Please, I don't need that. Yeah, it's shown on promos for a lot of these "reality" shows about E.R.s, pet rescue, birth, etc. Again, if you're actually watching those shows, you know what you're in for and what you're likely to see, but if you're watching TRADING SPACES and in the commercial break there's Fresh Hot Innards A-Go-Go, that ain't right. Heck, I can't even stomach E.R.'s gore fixation (I also think it's way too soapy and oft trite, but even if it was up to ST. ELSEWHERE standards, the gore would be a dealbreaker for me). Back to Michael Wells: >Trust me on this...if you're in on the birth, and it's YOUR child coming >out, the last thing you'll be looking at is the placenta. There is >something incredibly focusing about a little =you= screaming and crying >there under the warming lamp, to the exclusion of most everything else. I'm sure my attitude would be different if it was my kid on the way and my beloved wife going through labor - of course my focus would be on their well-being. But at the same time, I dunno if my wife would want to be awake and aware for the whole thing (unless it was a Rex daughter #2 "whoosh!" sorta deal, and you probably can't predict those things), or if I would want to be there to see it, even if it is the debut of my kid. Wife going through awful pain, blood and fluids and parts everywhere (hey, Romero and Craven had to be inspired by something, to go back to the jbj comment), and I've had a lifelong aversion to seeing medical-type stuff and wounds, so it doesn't seem like my kinda scene, you see? When you're a bright kid, everyone says you should be a doctor or lawyer, but I always knew that I didn't have the stomach for the former (found out in a h.s. internship that I didn't care for the latter either). I can't even watch my own blood being drawn, for gosh sakes. And to get back to another jbj question: >Are the same people who are hemming and hawing about looking at a placenta >the same ones who have not, or never will, have children? Enquiring >splatstick fans want to know. We were childless by choice until a couple of years ago, and now it's not possible. It simply never was high on the agenda for either of us even when it was possible. But I think you'd be well-advised not to inflate a very specific blood/gore/pain aversion into some general theory of Feg attitudes toward the body, sexuality, and reproduction - far as I can tell, the placenta-averse seem rather fond of the ladies and their various charms. :-) I thought Natalie's posts were *very* well-balanced on the whole subject. Very well thought-out! On to Rex: >Well, the other parents (and dude, Tom, cute kid*) have covered a lot of >this, and I can only really speak for m'self. But I certainly wasn't forced >to watch the births, I wanted to. Admittedly I'm not squeamish about much >and I am a seeker after new experiences and stuff, and I did feel I owed it >to the wife to stick with her after (cliche warning) putting her in that >position to begin with. So that confluence of conditions played into it. And then Rex said a lot more. Rex, I'm worried that you actually *did* feel maligned by my original placenta post, even though I thought I had provided sufficient qualifications to keep that from happening. The fact that you offered such a lengthy, point-by-point explanation of your thought process is proof positive that I didn't sufficiently qualify my statement. So maybe I should say it again -- I don't consider you to be a shallow person who would do things because they're trendy, especially when it comes to your wife 'n' kids. >BUT... as for the moms being drugged out like in the good old days... there >are a lot of legit reasons to avoid almost every form of medical >intervention during childbirth if you can manage it. Sure, most of the kids >turn out okay anyhow, but why risk it? I've never investigated this in any detail beyond the stuff that occasionally makes its way into the popular press, mostly because I've never had a baby on the way and *had* to delve deeper. So no doubt you're armed with more facts, but putting together the "we turned out OK" factor (wife and I were '66 and '67 babies who came into the world via the au courant methods of the day) with the "use common sense" realistic approaches described by Natalie and especially Jeffrey (regarding his sister's laborious labor), and, well, I'm a wee bit more inclined to think that natural childbirth uber alles is just as dicey a proposition as the pump-'em-full-o'-dope side of the spectrum. When my aunt was pregnant in '88, I learned one thing from the thousand-and-one strange women who thought my aunt's swelling belly gave them free reign to walk up to her and touch her stomach (why the heck do people think that a woman being pregnant gives them license to *touch* her?) -- they all had a "honey, you're gonna have [craving X] and [side effect Y], and when it comes, it's going to be [condidtion Z]" bunch of stories, and you know what? My aunt's pregnancy didn't go like *any* of them, so I concluded that no two pregnancies were alike. So even though Melissa and I won't be having our own for contrast and comparison purposes, I still blanch at the "one way fits all" undercurrent that seems pretty strong whenever I encounter discussions of childbearing. later, Miles ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V12 #259 ********************************