From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V12 #146 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Friday, April 18 2003 Volume 12 : Number 146 Today's Subjects: ----------------- The God, the Gay and the Dead ["Rex.Broome" ] two seasons (and some ink) in one day [grutness@surf4nix.com (James Digna] Re: actual Robyn Hitchcock question shock horror. [grutness@surf4nix.com ] double reap [grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan)] Re: actual Robyn Hitchcock question shock horror. [The Great Quail ] Re: Mr. Xandman [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: Mr. Xandman (plus Angel and Firefly) [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 13:17:46 -0700 From: "Rex.Broome" Subject: The God, the Gay and the Dead Tom C: >>Buh...er...wah? I'll admit I'm not the most perceptive guy in the world, >>but I've been on this list since almost the first day, and only now am I >>learning that Robyn is an agnostic bisexual. Did I miss a meeting? Hmmm. Odd. Interesting. My feeling is that Robyn would be one of those people who would agree in principle to the statement that "everybody is a little bit bi" (on a spectrum sort of like the one for left & right-handedness), thus the primary question is whether he self-identifies as "bisexual", which I'm pretty sure he doesn't. I do remember an interview many years ago, the source of which is too lame to reference, when he specifically alluded to not being gay but having written a number of what he called "gay" songs. He didn't name them, but you can name off the obvious ones pretty quickly-- "Pretty Girl", "Ted Woody & Jr" (which is specifically about an early, "coded" gay porn magazine), "Queen Elvis" (his most serious treatment of the subject, I think) and maybe "Woman's Shadow" (although it hadn't been recorded at the time of the interview). I'm sure I'm missing a few obvious ones, and other arguable ones, but there you go. His religious posture, as I read it, is virulently agnostic, but hardly atheistic. It all hinges on death and its aftermath. Death is a fascinating and common jumping off point from him, and he'll happily follow it into the void ("Then You're Dust"), some imagined spirit world ("Where Do You Go"), or a stylized spin on the Judeo-Christian take on the afterlife ("When I Was Dead" etc)... and then there are the sort of songs with ghosts, or the ones where you're dead but your bones are "all fine" and everything "sounds great"; I don't even know what that indicates unless it's a bit of "all of the above". And hey, we're actually talking about Robyn, although he'd probably just as soon we go back to parsing continuity errors on "Buffy"... - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 13:13:16 -0700 From: Glen Uber Subject: Re: actual Robyn Hitchcock question shock horror. Once upon a time John Barrington Jones say to me -- this is the dog talkin' now -- what is your conceptual continuity? > I've always thought that "Where Do You Go When You Die" was as literal a > statement of Robyn's beliefs as he could possibly write. But on the very same album, in the intro to "I'm Only You" he says, "I believe very firmly in God...I'm a very...in terms of spirituality..." So, I don't think that qualifies him as either an agnostic or atheist, if I understand the definition of those two words correctly. Further, if the lyrics to WDYGWYD accurately reflect his beliefs, I don't necessarily find it that unusual or hypocritical that he actually maintains both views. The belief in divine beings does not automatically mean that one has to belief in the concept of an afterlife. It was organized religious systems and not the deities worshipped by those religious systems that gave us afterlife, salvation, reincarnation, etc. - -- Cheers! - -g- "If it weren't for capital punishment, there'd be no such thing as Easter." - --Bill Hicks ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 16:24:14 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jonathan Fetter" Subject: Re: actual Robyn Hitchcock question shock horror. "I believe in nothing!" - --Shouted between songs by RH, Madison, WI, 1990 (?) I've always felt that he was using references to god, the devil, heaven, etc., for their symbolic value. Just a feeling though. Jon > Is he agnostic or atheist? I always had the impression that he believed in > some kind of heaven, afterlife, and supreme being. I don't remember him > saying anything to the contrary. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 13:54:14 -0700 From: "Kenneth Johnson" Subject: Re: The God, the Gay and the Dead regarding bi-sexuality: I too recall an interview where Robyn mentions having "experimented at school" and that's all. I believe it was within liner notes for some ryko reissue. also, please review Storefront Hitchcock for Robyn's view on god. In the spoken word interlude where he talks about the church full of carcasses, he says he does believe in god, but deplores religion as anathema to spirituality. "It is very dangerous to be a heretic in someone else's eyes" Kenneth ************************************ ************************************* >From: "Rex.Broome" >Reply-To: "Rex.Broome" >To: "'fegmaniax@smoe.org'" >Subject: The God, the Gay and the Dead >Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 13:17:46 -0700 > >Tom C: > >>Buh...er...wah? I'll admit I'm not the most perceptive guy in the >world, > >>but I've been on this list since almost the first day, and only now am I > >>learning that Robyn is an agnostic bisexual. Did I miss a meeting? > >Hmmm. Odd. Interesting. > >My feeling is that Robyn would be one of those people who would agree in >principle to the statement that "everybody is a little bit bi" (on a >spectrum sort of like the one for left & right-handedness), thus the >primary >question is whether he self-identifies as "bisexual", which I'm pretty sure >he doesn't. > >I do remember an interview many years ago, the source of which is too lame >to reference, when he specifically alluded to not being gay but having >written a number of what he called "gay" songs. He didn't name them, but >you can name off the obvious ones pretty quickly-- "Pretty Girl", "Ted >Woody >& Jr" (which is specifically about an early, "coded" gay porn magazine), >"Queen Elvis" (his most serious treatment of the subject, I think) and >maybe >"Woman's Shadow" (although it hadn't been recorded at the time of the >interview). I'm sure I'm missing a few obvious ones, and other arguable >ones, but there you go. > >His religious posture, as I read it, is virulently agnostic, but hardly >atheistic. It all hinges on death and its aftermath. Death is a >fascinating and common jumping off point from him, and he'll happily follow >it into the void ("Then You're Dust"), some imagined spirit world ("Where >Do >You Go"), or a stylized spin on the Judeo-Christian take on the afterlife >("When I Was Dead" etc)... and then there are the sort of songs with >ghosts, >or the ones where you're dead but your bones are "all fine" and everything >"sounds great"; I don't even know what that indicates unless it's a bit of >"all of the above". > >And hey, we're actually talking about Robyn, although he'd probably just as >soon we go back to parsing continuity errors on "Buffy"... > >-Rex _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 17:34:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Gross Subject: Re: Mr. Xandman (plus Angel and Firefly) Wow -- considering our previous similar feelings about BtVS, I was a bit surprised at the depth of my disagreement with Miles here. (Miles: I'm a big enough Buffy geek to enjoy debating this ad infinitum, but I'll understand if you don't feel like it!) On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, Miles Goosens wrote: > I'm thinking of all that, and his continued grousing about/hatefulness > toward/willingness to vote for staking Spike, and what I think is a > continued willingness to sabotage any potential/current/past love > interest for Buffy. There's a real malevolence there. More on all > this later... I honestly don't see that. I agree that early on (seasons 1-2) Xander often made remarks to try to cut down other guys in Buffy's eyes (Angel and single-episode guys Owen and Ford). But that faded over time. In season 3, he continued to dislike Angel, but once Angel was proven to be soul-boy again, Xander did nothing to try to break them up. He even volunteered to help with the research to save Angel in "Amends" (the Christmas episode). And while he was initially suspicious of Riley, he got over it, he didn't try to sabotage their relationship, and later actively tried to help make their relationship work. He even tried to *stop* them from breaking up in the episode where Riley leaves! As for Buffy's affair with Spike, Xander didn't even know about it until after it was over. Most recently, he showed not the slightest twinge of jealousy when Buffy went on a date with Principal Wood. So after season 2 I see little sign of this willingness to sabotage love interests. As for his attitude toward Spike, let's remember that while he's great fun for us the audience to watch, he can be pretty obnoxious to the other characters, especially the males. The Spike-Xander antipathy has always been mutual. Plus until season 7 there was the whole soulless-bloodsucking-evil-monster issue with Spike. > There's no way I'm as up on it to the point of calling out exact > episode names (there are, apparently, limits to my geekery), Oh, I've descended to deeper levels of geekery than most people can even imagaine. For example, I'm comfortable with referring to episodes by abbreviations of their titles: WTTH, OMWF, NKABOTFD, etc. (One problem with "Doublemeat Palace" is that it can be confused with that other DMP, "Dead Man's Party.") > but I > thought that only Willow was in the dark about it rather than Buffy, > who clearly did spot the perfidy as you mention. I could be wrong, but as I recall it sounded like neither of them had realized Xander had lied. IMO this was sheer careless writing; they could just as easily have referenced Xander's lie as something Buffy and Willow already knew about. (The rest of that episode was pretty good though, so I guess I can forgive them.) > And yes, I'm willing > to believe that Buffy never discussed it with Willow. Not me. For example, it should naturally have come up when Buffy and Willow were reconciling in early season 3, when Buffy was trying to explain why she ran away at the end of season 2. But I admit they are never shown discussing it during an episode; I'm just extrapolating what would have happened between the episodes. > I can buy that in the "big picture," but I think Xander's lie makes a > helluva difference in the character of his, um, character, and in his > relationships with his friends. I agree that what he did was wrong and that it reflects badly on him, but not to the same extent you seem to feel. First of all, his lie wasn't *unambiguously* bad -- after all, the spell to restore Angel's soul was a disaster the first time they tried it, and Angel was then an evil monster about to destroy the freakin' world; so even without the unrequited-lust-jealousy factor there were valid reasons why someone would want Buffy to go up against Angel ready to kill without hesitation. I see no reason to believe Xander did it just from jealousy. Secondly, I just don't agree that this one bad thing that he did during a very stressful situation is enough to condemn him. He's done more than enough good to outweigh it. > I strongly disagree with *that.* The big thing in Xander's "vision" of > the future, even if it was a maniuplated "vision," was the unrequited > thing for Buffy -- *that* was what IMO convinced him that marrying > Anya genuinely wouldn't work. And again I strongly disagree. (Aren't we a couple of strong men? ;) ) In his fake visions, Xander saw a future where *everything* in his life went wrong, including Buffy being dead and Xander having nearly died trying to help her; but I don't recall anything specifically about his love for her. Being bitter that Buffy died and he couldn't save her would be natural for a just-friends friend, IMO. And when he told Anya he wasn't going through with the wedding, he just said that he wasn't ready and wasn't sure it would work between them. It's sheer speculation that he was thinking of his "thing for Buffy" when he said that; there's no evidence for it in the episode. > He hasn't tried anything with Buffy at > the junctures you mention because he very well knows that he doesn't > have a shot with her, but his rage at being thwarted gets expressed > constantly and consistently, even if it has to take sublimated forms. Sorry, I just don't see it. I can't think of any such sign of rage since season 3, if not earlier. And even back in season 1 it was usually depression, not rage. Now, obviously I like Xander, but I'm not saying he's perfect. He's impulsive, immature, overly emotional, rather snarky, sometimes irresponsible, often prone to fly off the handle. But I think he has a good heart, and he's been a very good friend to Buffy over the years. > Speaking of ANGEL, I think someone ought to bestow the Cynthia > Stevenson Award for Hottest Really Skinny Chick on TV (Non-Bulemic) to > Amy Acker. I can't place the name Cynthia Stevenson, but as far as I'm concerned Amy Acker can have any award she likes. Nobel Peace Prize, Order of Lenin, Heisman trophy, you name it. And while we're on the subject of Angel women, am I the only one who wishes Cordelia would grow her hair out again? > Sure, and Summer Glau (I don't even like Pavement, yet I always think > of her as "Summer Glau/Winter Babe") while we're at it. The only > FIREFLY actor I initially didn't think was doing that good of a job > was the doctor, Sean Maher, but I thought over the last three or four > episodes, he really started to stretch his acting wings and embrace > the role. I totally agree with this. BTW I recently found out that Summer Glau was one of the ballerinas in that episode of Angel that takes place at a ballet (surely I could have found a better way of phrasing that). And I think that the *best* actor on Firefly may have been Ron Glass as Shepherd Book. > >I must have missed something. Who is Jane the Timeline Chick? > > Gotta keep up with the Gnat posts, Chris. Well, if she would write about Phish and Skinny Puppy more often.... - --Chris (a right-hander who holds his pen strangely and smears ink) ______________________________________________________________________ Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog. chrisg@gwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 15:31:27 -0700 From: Tom Clark Subject: Zappa stuff As a public service, here are a couple of online resources for streaming Zappa audio. Plug these URL's into your favorite MP3 player software, oh except Windows Media Player, which doesn't play streaming MP3 (last time I checked). Zappa Radio @32Kbps, from zappa.com: http://streaming.televizion.com:8000/ZappaRadio Hot Rats Radio @128Kbps KCSN (Cal State Northridge), Saturday nights, 10-12 PDT: http://130.166.72.114:8002 The Hot Rats show always plays a nice chunk of Beefheart. You're welcome, - -tc ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 11:30:27 +1200 From: grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan) Subject: two seasons (and some ink) in one day >Kinda weird... I falsely claimed to be listening to Jack Frost, but it just >now registered that I was and am in fact listening to... > >...Hank Snow. > >So you see how that works. Presumably one of the albums featuring his younger brother Edgar... no, wait, that's Johnny Winter, isn't it? - --- >> A large proportion of lefties do write this way, and it's largely becuase at >> one time lefties were taught to write that way to avoid smudging what they >> had just written. > >at one time (not that long ago -- about 3-4 generations), lefties in >Scotland got the tawse [leather strap] on the left hand, then got their >left arm tied behind their back until they fell in line and used their >right hand. not just in Scotland, either. By "ast one time" I meant after lefties started being taught that being left-handed was okay - which would be as recently as about 50 years ago. But that was still definitely in fountain pen days (even I recall in my very early days at school that I had to learn to use a fountain pen as well as a ball-point, and we're talking early 1970s here). Consider how much smudging you'd get with ink. - --- >> Also, if anyone knows of any info about the song, recording session, etc. >> floating around on the web or on paper, please let me know. Thanks! > >To start with, there are 141 covers at: >http://members.lycos.nl/summertimeweb/Summertime_covers.html including >Barry Manilow, the Doors, Ten Years After, the Residents, the Royal >Philharmonic, John Coltrane, Dave Edmunds, the Walker Brothers, Iggy Pop, >and the Pride of Dayton Marching Band. > >But I suspect there are many more. I do too, since only one of the three versions I have is on that list. He can add Shelley Manne and His Men's 1959 version, and the Art Blakey Quartet's 1963 version. I can clear a room with my impersonation of Billie Holiday singing "Summertime"... James James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand. =-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= .-=-.-=-.-=-.- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-. -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= You talk to me as if from a distance =-.-=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time -=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 11:30:42 +1200 From: grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan) Subject: Re: actual Robyn Hitchcock question shock horror. I must be on the wrong list. I started a conversation about Robyn Hitchcock. >On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, James Dignan wrote: >> When I was a kid; When I was dead; Sometimes I wish I was a pretty girl; >> I wanna be an anglepoise lamp... I get the feeling Robyn is often very >> uncomfortabble with who he actually is. The hooded monk responded: >And I'm insanely jealous of the people that aren't me. > >The guy's clearly not comfortable with who he really is. He can be really >great and creative and interesting as an artist, even when he wears his >influences on his sleeve. But often I think he's just trying to BE Syd >Barrett or Bob Dylan and rejects those things that are uniquely his. >This is when he fails as an artist, entertainer, and person, in my >opinion. this would tie in with the way he mimics people's intonations when he sings covers. Listen to the Van Morrison songs he's done ("Lyndon Johnson stole the heatpumps" in particular, but also "Fairplay"), and there's a deliberate attempt to imitate rather than sound like Robyn singing those songs. It's obvious with his take on Yer Blues, too, although Robyn's normal singing voice is Lennonesque enough that it would be hard for him not to mimic there. But it's more likely just a personal doubt about his own abilities somewhere, rather than anything strong enough to cause major frictions. And I don't think that his wearing his influences so heavily on his sleeve is a 'failure as an artist'. His ability to articulate his feelings is possibly one of the things that makes his work stand apart. I suspect a large proportion of artists - musical and otherwise - wish they were not who they are. It comes with the territory of being able to imagine other possibilities. I guess what I'm trying to say is that Robyn articulates these feelings more than most artists. >Is he agnostic or atheist? I always had the impression that he believed in >some kind of heaven, afterlife, and supreme being. I don't remember him >saying anything to the contrary. ISTR some between song comments (one of the Mountain Stages, perhaps? - gah, that makes it sound like the Tour de France...), about when you're dead that's it. But the opposite thoughts come through in several of his songs. James James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand. =-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= .-=-.-=-.-=-.- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-. -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= You talk to me as if from a distance =-.-=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time -=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 11:32:30 +1200 From: grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan) Subject: double reap Dr Robert Atkins (72) Sir Paul Getty (70) James ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 20:00:43 -0400 From: The Great Quail Subject: Re: actual Robyn Hitchcock question shock horror. James Dignan: >> When I was a kid; When I was dead; Sometimes I wish I was a pretty girl; >> I wanna be an anglepoise lamp... I get the feeling Robyn is often very >> uncomfortabble with who he actually is. Oh, I wouldn't go that far. I think an important part of the creative mind is the ability to project, to empathize, to place one's consciousness somewhere else for a time. Robyn, coming as he does from a personal universe of surrealism and metaphor, is even more prone to this than usual. For instance, let's look at your examples: the first is about growing up and the losses accompanying it, the second is a quasi-surreal attempt to imagine a strange, coexistent afterlife of sorts, the third is a song about sexual loneliness, and the last, well...ok, he wants to be a lamp. I think it would be different if he were singing about, well, being other types of people; or even if he more or less projected himself into "characters" that seemed to stand for values detached from his normal persona. I don't detect much of a yearning in Robyn to break free from himself, in fact, I think he's pretty secure in his own identity, and I think he generally speaks his mind. Jeme writes, > This is when he fails as an artist, entertainer, and person, in my > opinion. It's ugly and sad. Wow, well...you really think you are in a position to claim that Robyn fails as a person? Because, artistically, he favors homage and parody rather than appropriation and re-invention? I think this is a bit extreme, not to mention rather personally judgmental. Though I certainly agree that his covers lack any real surprising elements -- though hearing Robyn sing anything is certainly good, and cool, and valuable to me. "In a very real sense these songs wrote me." - --Robyn on Dylan's music >I also suspect that this is a cause for > friction in his long-term collaborations and possibly the reason for some > of the splits we've seen. I think almost the opposite -- I imagine that Robyn has a very strong artistic ego regarding his own material, and if someone wants to zig when Robyn wants to zag, the association becomes less attractive for him. >It's always been fairly clear to me that he > doesn't know what his best material is. Well, I do wish he'd retire "I Something You," "Cheese Alarm," and "Gene Hackman," but I'm usually satisfied by his concerts.... - --Quail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 17:34:54 -0700 From: Eleanore Adams Subject: Re: actual Robyn Hitchcock question shock horror. Wait....isn't that from The Big Labowski...... eleanore On Thursday, April 17, 2003, at 01:24 PM, Jonathan Fetter wrote: > "I believe in nothing!" > > --Shouted between songs by RH, Madison, WI, 1990 (?) > > I've always felt that he was using references to god, the devil, > heaven, etc., for their symbolic value. Just a feeling though. > > Jon > >> Is he agnostic or atheist? I always had the impression that he > believed in >> some kind of heaven, afterlife, and supreme being. I don't > remember him >> saying anything to the contrary. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 19:28:18 -0700 From: Eb Subject: re: more sci-fi >For example, I'm comfortable with referring to [Buffy] episodes by >abbreviations of their titles: WTTH, OMWF, NKABOTFD, etc. My father was laid to rest today...might put a few cemetary pictures on the Web for temporary perusal. Eb ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 22:16:48 -0500 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: Mr. Xandman Quoting Miles Goosens : > At 11:56 AM 4/17/2003 -0400, Christopher Gross wrote: > >Warning: major Buffy geekery ahead.... I don't suppose anyone's surprised I'm posting...only that it took me this long (busy day; printer is fucked up - I'm buying a new one tomorrow...) > I'm thinking of all that, and his continued grousing about/hatefulness > toward/willingness to vote for staking Spike, and what I think is a > continued willingness to sabotage any potential/current/past love > interest for Buffy. There's a real malevolence there. More on all this > later... While I see your point, I wouldn't call it a "real malevolence." I think Xander's negative feelings are a part of what makes him, in many ways, the most *human* of the _Buffy_ characters - and I think for the writers to hold him to superhuman standards, and judge him accordingly, wouldn't sit well with me. Now, for bad things to happen to him because of those flaws, however unfair - that would certainly fit the Jossverse, though. > Every Joss show has been a cornucopia of females, IMO. Heck, even > ANGEL's Lila, the one significant female character in a Whedon show that > didn't do anything for me, started to get foxy in the latter stages of > Season Three and until (and heck, one episode after) her unfortunate > demise this season. Yep. And Miles - it's not as if I ever had a *problem* with the looks of Faith...but somehow, she's been even hotter in her appearnces this season on Angel & Buffy. I think she's acting better, too: the intensity of her first re-appearance on _Angel_ practically leapt out of the screen. > Speaking of ANGEL, I think someone ought to bestow the Cynthia Stevenson > Award for Hottest Really Skinny Chick on TV (Non-Bulemic) to Amy Acker. Yeah, I can buy that...although I"m not generally in the Really Skinny Chick Appreciation Society (although there's this student of mine this semester who...ah never mind). I really like the way _Angel_'s plot is developing - at first, I was dubious, thinking, "okay, how long can everyone stumble around like sheep anyway? Gotcher point, Joss: excessive religious conformity is creepy, check." But, the magnitude of the threat is pretty cool, and the sheer creepiness is, well, creepy (in a creepy way). And as if Mutant Enemy's playing the anti-messianic card wasn't obvious enough, there's the very clever play on "through his [her] blood you shall be redeemed"... Speaking of creepy, how about that Preacher guy on _Buffy_ (Nathan Fillion - captain on _Firefly_)? ..Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: Some days, you just can't get rid of a bomb :: --Batman np: Giles Giles & Fripp _The Brondesbury Tapes_ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 22:20:57 -0500 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: Mr. Xandman (plus Angel and Firefly) Quoting Christopher Gross : > Oh, I've descended to deeper levels of geekery than most people can even > imagaine. For example, I'm comfortable with referring to episodes by > abbreviations of their titles: WTTH, OMWF, NKABOTFD, etc. (One problem > with "Doublemeat Palace" is that it can be confused with that other DMP, > "Dead Man's Party.") You can just say "the DMP that sucked" for "Doublemeat Palace" - that'll simplify things... ..Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: I feel that all movies should have things that happen in them :: --TV's Frank ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 23:07:11 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: re: Mr. Xandman Chris sez: >Wow -- considering our previous similar feelings about BtVS, I was a bit >surprised at the depth of my disagreement with Miles here. (Miles: I'm a >big enough Buffy geek to enjoy debating this ad infinitum, but I'll >understand if you don't feel like it!) I'll probably call it quits on the list itself after this message, and continuing other parts of it would require me to rewatch some episodes, so those parts will have to be tabled anyway. >season 3, he continued to dislike Angel, but once Angel was proven to be >soul-boy again, Xander did nothing to try to break them up. He even >volunteered to help with the research to save Angel in "Amends" (the >Christmas episode). And while he was initially suspicious of Riley, he got >over it, he didn't try to sabotage their relationship, and later actively >tried to help make their relationship work. He even tried to *stop* them >from breaking up in the episode where Riley leaves! I think you mistake the absence of Xander actively pursuing Buffy, and Xander sometimes reluctantly doing the right thing re: Buffy's boyfriends, as equating to an absence of Buffy jones. And I ain't buying. I think it works as a powerful drive with Xander, even when it's subliminated. >As for Buffy's affair >with Spike, Xander didn't even know about it until after it was over. And of course he was full of rage when he found out, and has shown even more venom towards Spike ever since. And the whole time Spike and Buffy were carrying on, his ears were pricked up IMO -- even if he didn't know what was really happening, he could sense it. >As for his attitude toward Spike, let's remember that while he's great fun >for us the audience to watch, he can be pretty obnoxious to the other >characters, especially the males. The Spike-Xander antipathy has always >been mutual. Plus until season 7 there was the whole >soulless-bloodsucking-evil-monster issue with Spike. Um, again, Xander is the one who is intent on bringing this up all the time, and since Season 5, the one who pushes the buttons most often. You'd be pretty antipathetic towards Xander if he kept lobbying for you to be killed or calling you names every time you turned around. And while we're not forgetting, let us not forget the chip in Spike's head inserted during Season 4. Plus (and this is something they've not played up especially), Spike all but developing a conscience on his own during Seasons 5 and 6 -- IMO getting an actual soul was almost superfluous at that point. I think the Tabla Rosa episode is essential to this plotline: our memoryless "Randy," rather than being innately evil and feasting on his fellow amnesiacs, instead behaves with extraordinary goodness and kindness. But I'm starting to digress from Xander... >> There's no way I'm as up on it to the point of calling out exact >> episode names (there are, apparently, limits to my geekery), > >Oh, I've descended to deeper levels of geekery than most people can even >imagaine. For example, I'm comfortable with referring to episodes by >abbreviations of their titles: WTTH, OMWF, NKABOTFD, etc. (One problem >with "Doublemeat Palace" is that it can be confused with that other DMP, >"Dead Man's Party.") Hot damn, I'm still an amateur geek! >> but I >> thought that only Willow was in the dark about it rather than Buffy, >> who clearly did spot the perfidy as you mention. > >I could be wrong, but as I recall it sounded like neither of them had >realized Xander had lied. I'm dropping this whole part for now, since it requires watching episodes I don't currently have on tape, though I can watch the early Season 3 episodes on DVD to see how the "who knew what and said what after it was over" part worked out. It might be objectively settled by watching all the relevant episodes again; it might be a subjective thing. Dunno, but I need to be more up on it to do a proper rejoinder -- or concession. >> I can buy that in the "big picture," but I think Xander's lie makes a >> helluva difference in the character of his, um, character, and in his >> relationships with his friends. > >I agree that what he did was wrong and that it reflects badly on him, but >not to the same extent you seem to feel. First of all, his lie wasn't >*unambiguously* bad -- after all, the spell to restore Angel's soul was a >disaster the first time they tried it, and Angel was then an evil monster >about to destroy the freakin' world; so even without the >unrequited-lust-jealousy factor there were valid reasons why someone would >want Buffy to go up against Angel ready to kill without hesitation. I see >no reason to believe Xander did it just from jealousy. I'll buy multiple motivations -- and encourage such interpretations -- but I do think he took a malevolent joy in telling that particular lie and ensuring that Angel(us) would be removed from the picture. > Secondly, I just >don't agree that this one bad thing that he did during a very stressful >situation is enough to condemn him. He's done more than enough good to >outweigh it. I'm not saying he should be condemned; I *am* saying that he hasn't been called out for everything, and those lies, half-truths, and subtle attempts at sabotage (I'm also beginning to wonder if you're not seeing them because Xander isn't often successful at translating them into action, given his oft-ineffectualness at steeling his own nerves or persuading others) have added up over the seasons. >> I strongly disagree with *that.* The big thing in Xander's "vision" of >> the future, even if it was a maniuplated "vision," was the unrequited >> thing for Buffy -- *that* was what IMO convinced him that marrying >> Anya genuinely wouldn't work. > >And again I strongly disagree. (Aren't we a couple of strong men? ;) ) In >his fake visions, Xander saw a future where *everything* in his life went >wrong, including Buffy being dead and Xander having nearly died trying to >help her; but I don't recall anything specifically about his love for her. >Being bitter that Buffy died and he couldn't save her would be natural for >a just-friends friend, IMO. And when he told Anya he wasn't going through >with the wedding, he just said that he wasn't ready and wasn't sure it >would work between them. Lord help me, I'm about to resort to a transcript. These are all quotes from Xander's "vision" sequences in the Anya/Xander wedding episode: >Xander: You going out again? >Anya: picking up a small wastebasket Im doing a >make-over party. >Xander: I thought you hated those. >Anya: Well, one of us has to make some money. >picking up empty beer bottles >Xander (angry): Well, what do you want me to do, >Anya? Huh? I cant work. My back is shot. >Anya: And whose fault is that? >Xander: Oh, no no no. Not the Buffy thing again. >Anya: You had no business fighting demons with >her. >Xander: Buffy needed me. I had to help. >Anya (bitterly): Well, it didnt save her, did it? All it did was ruin our lives. And the much more pointed one, even less ambiguous and more direct when I watched it: >[Flash to a kitchen, even more years later. The sink is >piled with dirty dishes.] >Xander:f you were so unhappy, why didnt you >just leave? >Anya: I wanted to. I should have! >[Pan over to a small table against a wall. Xander and >Anya sit there, facing each other across the table. He >is still in his tux and still the same age. Anya is much >older.] >Xander: Yeah, you should have. Cause then maybe >I would have gotten some touch in the past twenty >years. >Anya: I wasnt the one who stopped touching! >Xander: Oh! Maybe, but you werent touching me! >[He jumps up angrily, begins to pace.] >Anya: What did you expect me to do? You wouldnt >come near me after Buffy >Xander [shouts]: Dont bring her into this! >Anya: Fine. Forget her. Maybe you were just born to >be a bitter, angry old man. >Xander [quietly, very angry]: Shut up. >Anya: No! [tearfully] I want my life back! If I hadnt >married you I wouldnt have had to hate myself for >the last THIRTY YEARS! Back to Chris: >It's sheer speculation that he was thinking of >his "thing for Buffy" when he said that; there's no evidence for it in the >episode. See above. Again, just because Xander didn't say to Anya "I have this unrequited desire for Buffy that undermines my entire life" doesn't mean that it's not the real reason, and I think the above provides plenty of evidence to go with the million subtle things that Xander's said, done, and been shown to think over the course of lo these seven seasons (and now when I start watching reruns again, I'll start keeping track of 'em). Plus all Joss shows are pretty big on understatement and underplaying things, even for seasons at a time, then having enormous payoffs when they do blow up. It's part of what makes 'em great. I think this is one of those things, and a big one. >Now, obviously I like Xander, but I'm not saying he's perfect. He's >impulsive, immature, overly emotional, rather snarky, sometimes >irresponsible, often prone to fly off the handle. But I think he has a >good heart, and he's been a very good friend to Buffy over the years. That's true, but what I say can also simultaneously be true. And it's that kind of complexity that draws me into Whedon's shows. Chris, I'll conclude my end of the BtVS discussion for now by turning over the floor to my wife, Melissa. I took the liberty of forwarding your earlier post to her (the one before the one I'm replying to now). I think she'd point to the same evidence as I would about Xander, his Buffy jones, and his associated sins great and small, but she quickly moves on to a more general discussion of the men in Buffy's life, one so well-stated that I think the whole reply bears quoting. As usual, she's more concise, more incisive, and just plain smarter than I am: Here's Melissa: >I agree with you, as you already know. Xander has consistently been ruled >by his lust for Buffy. There is also a really irritating pattern that >male humans, as opposed to vamps, have with Buffy of becoming all >judgmental about her sexual relationships and protective over her. Giles, Robin >Wood, Riley, and Xander all act like she needs to be protected from the vamps in >her life, but I think part of what they fear is her power and sexuality. >They know that she is too much woman for them--mere mortals--and they are >jealous of the men who can go toe to toe with her, both of whom have had >more than a little demon in them. Buffy is as much of a freak as the >vampires and demons she fights and no one should ever forget that. This >year we learned once and for all that there is something demonic in Buffy, >too. I think it is pretty easy to see that fear of a strong, sensual, >sexually free woman making her own moral choices is part of what motivates >the decisions of mortal males in Buffy's life. They are unsettled and at >times downright terrified by Buffy's strength--both physical, moral, and >emotional--and they keep wanting to reduce her to some sort of confused, >over-stimulated teenaged girl with a crush, who needs the protection of a >father-figure or brother-substitute. > >We have also seen that the mortal men in Buffy's life are by no means >immune to foolish crushes, bad decisions, or downright immoral actions >themselves, so they are hardly in a position to cast stones at Buffy >and her vampires. The longer both this show and "Angel" go on, >the more clearly one can see that the acts of demons and vampires >are only the sins of humans writ large. > >In some cases, like that of Spike and Doyle, demons or part-demons have >actually exhibited more responsible, caring, morally conscionable behavior >than their fully human counterparts. Even without his soul, Spike was a >better man than Xander, for instance, and therein may lie the rub for the >men in Buffy's life. - -finis- Do I need to say that I completely agree with her, and that reading something like that reminds me of why I fell for her in the first place? Probably not, but I just did. :-) Meanwhile, back at the ranch, here's Chris again: >> Speaking of ANGEL, I think someone ought to bestow the Cynthia >> Stevenson Award for Hottest Really Skinny Chick on TV (Non-Bulemic) to >> Amy Acker. > >I can't place the name Cynthia Stevenson, but as far as I'm concerned Amy >Acker can have any award she likes. Nobel Peace Prize, Order of Lenin, >Heisman trophy, you name it. Cynthia first came to my attention as Bob Newhart's adult daughter on BOB, but she was also in a fine TV talk show parody called MY TALK SHOW that proceeded her role on BOB. She was Hope in HOPE AND GLORIA, and most recently she can be seen as Frankie Muniz' mom in AGENT CODY BANKS -- and God help us, she's really and truly old enough not just to play a mom, but actually to be the mom of a kid *older* than Frankie Muniz. How the heck did those ten years go by so fast for all of us? >And while we're on the subject of Angel women, am I the only one who >wishes Cordelia would grow her hair out again? I am a big fan of the Cordy short hair. While she's made some occasional missteps with it, in general I've thought it's sexier than hell. It looked great to me when she first got it cut short, and, for another example, in "that episode of ANGEL that takes place at a ballet." > And I >think that the *best* actor on Firefly may have been Ron Glass as Shepherd >Book. Loved him since Barney Miller, and that remake of THE ODD COUPLE wasn't so bad, starring two really underrated actors in Glass and SANFORD's Lamont, Demond Wilson. >> >I must have missed something. Who is Jane the Timeline Chick? >> >> Gotta keep up with the Gnat posts, Chris. > >Well, if she would write about Phish and Skinny Puppy more often.... Ugh, I might not keep up with them then. later, Miles ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V12 #146 ********************************