From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V12 #109 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Tuesday, March 25 2003 Volume 12 : Number 109 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Ebay/Paypal question (0%RH) [Miles Goosens ] Re: Ebay/Paypal question (0%RH) ["Brian Hoare" ] Re: Ebay/Paypal question (0%RH) ["Brian Hoare" ] when the parts are worth more than the sum [gshell@metronet.com] Re: Ebay/Paypal question (0%RH) ["Jason R. Thornton" ] Re: Ebay/Paypal question (0%RH) ["Jason R. Thornton" ] Re: Ebay/Paypal question (0%RH) [Ken Weingold ] Re: Ebay/Paypal question (0%RH) ["Roberta Cowan" ] Re: Ebay/Paypal question (0%RH) [Eric Loehr ] Re: Ebay/Paypal question (0%RH) ["Jason R. Thornton" ] Finger-pickin' good ["Rex.Broome" ] Re: Ebay/Paypal question (0%RH) ["Roberta Cowan" ] Re: Ebay/Paypal question (0%RH) ["Michael E. Kupietz, wearing a pointy ha] Re: when the parts are worth more than the sum [Jeff Dwarf ] REAP [Tom Clark ] Re: REAP ["Stewart C. Russell" ] Re: Please report any suspicious looking wallies ["Michael E. Kupietz, we] Re: beer! ["Brian Hoare" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 10:49:19 -0600 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: Ebay/Paypal question (0%RH) At 11:33 AM 3/24/2003 -0500, Eric Loehr wrote: >The seller says he can't accept a direct payment by credit card through >Paypal but can take a transfer of funds from the my Paypal account to his. > I don't carry a balance on my Paypal account -- I just use a credit card >to send the exact amount. The seller says he's only got a personal account >and can't accept the payment because it came from my credit card -- but >isn't that the whole point of Paypal -- being able to send $$ to anyone >with an email address and an account? I don't see why it matters on his end >how the money got into my account. > >One of us doesn't understand how this works -- it could well be me -- >anybody out there have any insight? The default transfer of money on PayPal is direct via bank accounts rather than credit card. That service is free to the seller. On the other hand, accepting credit card payments means giving back a percentage of the transaction to PayPal (as any credit-card-acceptin' merchant has to do), and not everyone wants to do that. When your seller says that "he's only got a personal account," that's what he's saying -- he only has the basic account, which does *not* accept credit card payments. Got it? later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 16:45:35 +0000 From: "Brian Hoare" Subject: Re: Ebay/Paypal question (0%RH) >From: Eric Loehr >The seller says he can't accept a direct payment by credit card through >Paypal but can take a transfer of funds from the my Paypal account to > >his. I don't carry a balance on my Paypal account -- I just use a credit >card to send the exact amount. The seller says he's only got a personal >account and can't accept the payment because it came from my credit card -- >but isn't that the whole point of Paypal -- being able to send $$ to anyone >with an email address and an account? I don't see why it matters on his end >how the money got into my account. > I'd be interested to know how this works out as I'm going to have to get paypal'ed for an auction of mine that's just finished. I've only got a personal ppal account and I don't really want to upgrade it just to recieve one payment. Brian _________________________________________________________________ Surf together with new Shared Browsing http://join.msn.com/?page=features/browse&pgmarket=en-gb&XAPID=74&DI=1059 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 16:47:46 +0000 From: "Brian Hoare" Subject: Re: Ebay/Paypal question (0%RH) >From: Eric Loehr >The seller says he can't accept a direct payment by credit card through >Paypal but can take a transfer of funds from the my Paypal account to > >his. I don't carry a balance on my Paypal account -- I just use a credit >card to send the exact amount. The seller says he's only got a personal >account and can't accept the payment because it came from my credit card -- >but isn't that the whole point of Paypal -- being able to send $$ to anyone >with an email address and an account? I don't see why it matters on his end >how the money got into my account. > I'd be interested to know how this works out as I'm going to have to get paypal'ed for an auction of mine that's just finished. I've only got a personal ppal account and I don't really want to upgrade it just to recieve one payment. Brian _________________________________________________________________ It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today! http://messenger.msn.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 16:50:02 +0000 From: "Brian Hoare" Subject: Re: Ebay/Paypal question (0%RH) >From: Eric Loehr >The seller says he can't accept a direct payment by credit card through >Paypal but can take a transfer of funds from the my Paypal account to > >his. I don't carry a balance on my Paypal account -- I just use a credit >card to send the exact amount. The seller says he's only got a personal >account and can't accept the payment because it came from my credit card -- >but isn't that the whole point of Paypal -- being able to send $$ to anyone >with an email address and an account? I don't see why it matters on his end >how the money got into my account. > I'd be interested to know how this works out as I'm going to have to get paypal'ed for an auction of mine that's just finished. I've only got a personal ppal account and I don't really want to upgrade it just to recieve one payment. Brian _________________________________________________________________ Stay in touch with absent friends - get MSN Messenger http://messenger.msn.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 10:44:35 -0600 (CST) From: gshell@metronet.com Subject: when the parts are worth more than the sum Son of Saddam As Iraq's top Olympic official, Uday Hussein is accused of the torture and murder of athletes who fail to win By Don Yaeger As he stood at the double-door entrance to the office of Iraqi National Olympic Committee president Uday Hussein, the boxer knew what awaited on the other side. He had just returned from a Gulf States competition, where he had been knocked out in the first round. Now it was time to pay the price. Inside the yellow-and-blue office, Uday, the older of Iraqi president Saddam Hussein's two sons, paced the floor, waving his expensive Cuban cigar and glaring out the floor-to-ceiling windows overlooking Baghdad. "He was yelling about how Iraq should not be embarrassed by its athletes," recalls Latif Yahia, employed for nearly five years as Uday's body double - -- he would stand in for Uday on occasions that were deemed a security threat -- and one of his closest associates to have escaped to the West. "He kept saying, 'This is my Iraq. Embarrassing Iraq embarrasses me.'" With a wave of Uday's arm the manacled boxer was led into the room by Iraqi secret service. Sitting behind a dark wood desk beneath an oversized portrait of himself, Uday began his tirade. "In sport you can win or you can lose. I told you not to come home if you didn't win." His voice rising, he walked around the desk and gave the boxer a lesson. "This is how you box," he screamed as he threw a left and a right straight to the fighter's face. Blood dribbled from the athlete's nose as Uday launched another round of punches. Then, using the electric prod he was famous for carrying, Uday jolted the boxer in the chest. Blood was streaming from a cut above the boxer's eye when Uday ordered his guards to fetch a straight razor. The boxer cried out as Uday held the razor to his throat, and as he moved the blade to the fighter's forehead, Uday laughed. He then shaved the man's eyebrows, an insult to Muslim males. "Take him downstairs and finish the job," Uday screamed. Says Yahia, "They took him to the basement of the Olympic building. It has a 30-cell prison where athletes -- and anyone else who is out of favor with Uday -- are beaten and tortured. That was the last I ever heard of that boxer." THE BUTCHER'S BOY , as he is sometimes called, is reputed to be the most brutal member of Iraq's notorious ruling family. As an infant he reportedly played with disarmed grenades. By 10 he was accompanying his father to the torture chamber at Qasr-al-Nihayyah (the Palace of the End, where many political enemies, including deposed King Faisal II, were killed) to watch Saddam deal with dissidents. By 16 he bragged of committing his first murder, telling classmates he had killed a teacher who had upbraided him in front of a girlfriend... http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_online/news/2003/03/24/son_of_saddam/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 08:58:57 -0800 From: "Jason R. Thornton" Subject: Re: Ebay/Paypal question (0%RH) At 04:45 PM 3/24/2003 +0000, Brian Hoare wrote: >I'd be interested to know how this works out as I'm going to have to get >paypal'ed for an auction of mine that's just finished. I've only got a >personal ppal account and I don't really want to upgrade it just to >recieve one payment. Here's a page describing the various account types available through PayPal: http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/accounts-outside I "upgraded" once to accept a credit card payment on a somewhat expensive item, because I really wanted to sell it, but now I'm charged a percentage on every transaction - and as a result, I really don't put much up for auction anymore. - --Jason "Only the few know the sweetness of the twisted apples." - Sherwood Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 09:15:45 -0800 From: "Jason R. Thornton" Subject: Re: Ebay/Paypal question (0%RH) At 08:58 AM 3/24/2003 -0800, I wrote: >I "upgraded" once to accept a credit card payment on a somewhat expensive >item, because I really wanted to sell it, but now I'm charged a percentage >on every transaction - and as a result, I really don't put much up for >auction anymore. Looking around the PayPal site, I just realized you can "downgrade" your account back to "Personal." Cool. Jason ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 12:16:15 -0500 From: Ken Weingold Subject: Re: Ebay/Paypal question (0%RH) On Mon, Mar 24, 2003, Jason R. Thornton wrote: > I "upgraded" once to accept a credit card payment on a somewhat expensive > item, because I really wanted to sell it, but now I'm charged a percentage > on every transaction - and as a result, I really don't put much up for > auction anymore. I had to do that once as well. They will let you go back to a Personal account one time only. I did it. But I AM confused now, as I sold something once and was payed by PayPal and though the person said that they didn't use a credit card, PayPal told me I needed to upgrade the account to accept the payment. I have no idea what the problem was, and their support sucks. - -Ken ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 12:33:54 -0500 From: "Roberta Cowan" Subject: Re: Ebay/Paypal question (0%RH) Their support has gotten a lot better since they were taken over by eBay. There is even a phone number so you can talk to a real live person though you have to dig a bit on the site to find it. Roberta ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 12:57:41 -0500 From: "ross taylor" Subject: Katrina and the Waves, etc. Kay! Hooray! A O-Kay! Hip, hip, hoo-Kay! Re. studying peace (for those who ain't gonna study war no mo')-- No answer. But my new favorite book regarding human conflict is "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond (Norton, 1999, with a 2003 afterward). - --- Partially out of frustration, I picked up a used casset ($.50; pristine condition) of the 1985 Kristina and the Waves lp. I like the "Walking on Sunshine" with horns, but remember hearing "Going Down to Liverpool" in its earlier version off the 1983 album & remember it sounding better. I'm frustrated because Bongo Beat said it would re-release the 1st two K&tW albums in January, but I don't see any evidence at their website, Amazon, the K&tW site, anywhere. Anyone know the story on this? As for the tape, I feel the big 80s production ruins some potentially good songs that would sound great done in the rootsier, more 50s style of Great Central Revisited. For that matter, the only songs where I wouldn't prefer hearing Rew's voice are the ballads. Underneath it all you can still hear some great guitar by a guy who probably memorized Richie Valens' output. Ross Taylor "Why is it that you white people developed so much cargo and brought it to New Guinea, but we black people had little cargo of our own?" --Yali, in _Guns, Germs and Steel_ by Jared Diamond Need a new email address that people can remember Check out the new EudoraMail at http://www.eudoramail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 13:10:54 -0500 From: Eric Loehr Subject: Re: Ebay/Paypal question (0%RH) Thanks everyone who replied both on and offlist for clearing this up -- I figured it was probably me who didn't have it right -- but I do think it sucks that a personal account can't accept credit cards -- they're already getting their percentage with each transaction, and in my case it's kind of funny that they look on a checking account as more solid -- I've got a way higher credit card limit than I do money in the bank. Oh well. Eric At 12:33 PM 3/24/2003 -0500, Roberta Cowan wrote: >Their support has gotten a lot better since they were taken over by eBay. >There is even a phone number so you can talk to a real live person though >you have to dig a bit on the site to find it. >Roberta ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 10:31:01 -0800 From: "Jason R. Thornton" Subject: Re: Ebay/Paypal question (0%RH) At 01:10 PM 3/24/2003 -0500, Eric Loehr wrote: > but I do think it >sucks that a personal account can't accept credit cards Yes, it does suck. But, in PayPal's defense, they're likely charged for credit card transactions by the credit card companies, so it's probably justified that they pass on these expenses to the users. - --Jason "Only the few know the sweetness of the twisted apples." - Sherwood Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 10:45:21 -0800 From: "Rex.Broome" Subject: Finger-pickin' good Eb: >>Based on this page, it appears that the Replacements' Hootenanny and >>Let It Be are the only Twin/Tone albums which outsold Eye? Y'know, I'm kinda surprised this information is accessible. Every once in a while I get the urge to know which record is any given artist's "best seller", usually to confirm some cockamamie theory (for example, I'd bet Robyn's best seller is one of the A&M records that's been out of print forever, possibly Queen Elvis?) but it seems that such sales information is hidden from the general public unless the record went at least gold. Odd contrast with the film industry, where film grosses are almost instantaneous public information no matter how bad a flop it is. _____________ Nat then Jeffff: >>> He finger-picked with his thumb and forefinger only, which I've never seen >>>anyone do before >>Well, that's how I play if I'm not using a pick - but then, that's only >>because I'm too lame and clumsy to actually use the other fingers... Broome-Style finger-picking is similar, with the middle finger not so much under control, but free to hit random strings if it so desires (or just randomly happens to)... usually nobody gets hurt. This technique is needed more and more these days as my daughter is wont to demand the pick from me for ukulele use while I'm playing. _____ And hey, big welcome back to Kay! - -Rex, who has some songs without guns or Charlton Heston, but is still underqualified for membership in the Mortals ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 13:40:07 -0500 From: "Roberta Cowan" Subject: Re: Ebay/Paypal question (0%RH) from Jason: > Yes, it does suck. But, in PayPal's defense, they're likely charged for > credit card transactions by the credit card companies, so it's probably > justified that they pass on these expenses to the users. Also, most real businesses accept credit cards and they're charged a percentage by their bank to take credit cards which is, if not higher than that charged by PayPal, then comparable. Everybody's gotta get their cut you know... Roberta ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 14:00:53 -0500 From: Eric Loehr Subject: Re: Ebay/Paypal question (0%RH) I don't dispute that they should get their cut -- but why can't they make it easy and automatically tack on whatever percent surcharge for each transaction? I don't mind paying the extra fees -- it's the convenience factor; after all, I'm already responsible for charges on my credit card - -- I don't see why I have to add a bank account number to be able to transfer "real" money to my account. Anyway, once again, thanks all for the info. Eric At 01:40 PM 3/24/2003 -0500, Roberta Cowan wrote: >from Jason: >> Yes, it does suck. But, in PayPal's defense, they're likely charged for >> credit card transactions by the credit card companies, so it's probably >> justified that they pass on these expenses to the users. > >Also, most real businesses accept credit cards and they're charged a >percentage by their bank to take credit cards which is, if not higher than >that charged by PayPal, then comparable. Everybody's gotta get their cut >you know... >Roberta ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 13:01:47 -0800 From: "Michael E. Kupietz, wearing a pointy hat" Subject: Re: Ebay/Paypal question (0%RH) On a distant shore, miles from land, stands an ebony Eric Loehr on ebony sand, a dream at 3/24/03 2:00 PM -0500 in a mist of gray: >I don't dispute that they should get their cut -- but why can't they make >it easy and automatically tack on whatever percent surcharge for each >transaction? I don't mind paying the extra fees -- it's the convenience >factor; after all, I'm already responsible for charges on my credit card >-- I don't see why I have to add a bank account number to be able to >transfer "real" money to my account. Because per-transaction credit card surcharges are illegal in the U.S. We only made the leap to accepting credit cards at the Tortoise 2 or 3 years ago, and have had to deal with this sort of thing. There is legislation in the US making it illegal to pass the 4% credit card processing charge on to customers (thank industry lobbyists for that little peach.) Essentially the law says you can't charge a different price for the same thing to customers who pay by credit card. This necessitates the separate "personal account" and "premier account" packages with different features. This way the extra cost they're passing you is technically not for a credit card transaction per se, it's for an account package, a different product. MK (w/a PH) - -- ======== This is a piece by Peter Fruendlich heard on NPR. All right, let me see if I understand the logic of this correctly. We are going to ignore the United Nations in order to make clear to Saddam Hussein that the United Nations cannot be ignored. We're going to wage war to preserve the UN's ability to avert war. The paramount principle is that the UN's word must be taken seriously, and if we have to subvert its word to guarantee that it is, then by gun, we will. Peace is too important not to take up arms to defend it. Am I getting this right? Further, if the only way to bring democracy to Iraq is to vitiate the democracy of the Security Council, then we are honor bound to that too, because democracy, as we define it, is too important to be stopped by a little thing like democracy as they see it. Also, in dealing with a man who brooks no dissension at home, we cannot afford dissension among ourselves. We must speak with one voice against Saddam Hussein's failure to allow opposing voices to be heard. We are sending our gathered might to the Persian Gulf to make the point that might does not make right, as Saddam Hussein seems to think it does. And we are twisting the arms of the opposition until it agrees to let us oust a regime that twists the arms of the opposition. We cannot leave in power a dictator who ignores his own people. And if our people, and people elsewhere in the world, fail to understand that, then we have no choice but to ignore them. Listen. Don't misunderstand. I think it is good that the members of the Bush administration seem to have been reading Lewis Carroll. I only wish someone had pointed out that "Alice in Wonderland" and "Through the Looking Glass" are meditations on paradox and puzzle and illogic and on the strangeness of things, not templates for foreign policy. It is amusing for the Mad Hatter to say something like, "We must make war on him because he is a threat to peace," but not amusing for someone who commands an army to say that. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 15:11:41 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Dwarf Subject: Re: when the parts are worth more than the sum gshell@metronet.com wrote: > Son of Saddam > > As Iraq's top Olympic official, Uday Hussein is accused of the > torture and murder of athletes who fail to win > > By Don Yaeger > [snip] > http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_online/news/2003/03/24/son_of_saddam/ Wow, and only several months after ESPN reported the same story. Between that and the "Kirby Puckett is a wife beater" story, I expect that anyday now SI will note that former Mets and Phillies pitcher Tug McGraw's son is making a bit of name for himself in country music. ===== "Propaganda is that branch of the art of lying which consists in very nearly deceiving your friends without quite deceiving your enemies." -- F.M. Cornford "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt . Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 12:03:59 +1200 From: grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan) Subject: where's wally? MRG of the GWR responded to my comments thus: >> A wally is a prat. A bit of a norman. A schlemiel. > >My recollection is that this dates from the Weeley pop festival of >whenever (Commander Lang, help!). A group of fans gathered in the crowd >around a banner which read "Wally from Weeley". Soon there were appeals >across the PA for Wally to contact the Release tent, or the organisers' >booth, or the veggieburger stall etc. People started to shout "Wally" at >any hippie who looked confused or lost. Hence 'Wally' = a bemused hippie. >This usage rapidly spread nationwide. > >I'd be glad for confirmation or rebuttal of this piece of folklore. the Oxford Dictionary of Modern Slang dates it to about 1969, which would make sense for that. It compares it with an old Scottish term "Wallydraigle" meaning a worthless person, but makes no attempt to say that this is where it would have come from. I';d always assumed it came from the word "wallah", which came into the UK via old colonials back from India, but that was always just a guess. James James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand. =-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= .-=-.-=-.-=-.- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-. -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= You talk to me as if from a distance =-.-=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time -=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 12:04:25 +1200 From: grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan) Subject: Re: beer! >>Hello Mr B, >>This is a good mission to be on! I'm still in NZ, and so far I've >>particularly enjoyed Speights, DB Draught, Mac's Black, Export Gold, & >>Monteith's Black (although I had to sleep after two of those in the >>afternoon!). There are loads of others but their names are escaping me >>now... >>I haven't come across Emersons yet, but I will keep looking.... Emersons may only be available in the South Island - it's a local Dunedin brewery. James np - the ultimate NZ drinking song, "Bliss" by Th'Dudes: "Drink yourself more bliss - forget about the last one, get yourself another!" James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand. =-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= .-=-.-=-.-=-.- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-. -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= You talk to me as if from a distance =-.-=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time -=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 19:05:30 -0500 From: "Maximilian Lang" Subject: A perfect weekend. Well, it was for me at least. Bettie Serveert on Saturday and Television on Sunday. Both bands were really on. I had heard things about Television being sloppy last year, if they were any tighter...well they couldn't be. The sound was a problem at Television, you could barely hear Richard Loyd and the lead vocals were too loud while the backing were non existant. It is a shame that R.L.'s guitar was badly mixed because he was playing like his life depended on it. The Bettie show was great. They are so upbeat, it's refreshing, must be all that good weed in Amsterdam. Highly recommended, I wish I had enough energy left to go see them tonight in Philly. Max _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 18:06:18 -0800 From: Tom Clark Subject: REAP Computer maker Adam Osborne http://news.myway.com/tech/article/id/312413|technology|03-24-2003::18:05|re uters.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 21:50:12 -0500 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: Re: REAP Tom Clark wrote: > > Computer maker Adam Osborne We raise our distended right arms in salute to you. (bloody hell, but weren't Osbornes heavy?) Stewart ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 17:47:54 -0800 From: "Michael E. Kupietz, wearing a pointy hat" Subject: Re: Please report any suspicious looking wallies On a distant shore, miles from land, stands an ebony James Dignan on ebony sand, a dream at 3/22/03 7:47 PM +1200 in a mist of gray: >A wally is a prat. A bit of a norman. A schlemiel. Now yer talking my language. According to the, uh, Oxfordzky Yiddish Dictionary, a schlemiel is a "well-meaninged fool", frequently sighted in the company with his counterpart, the Schlemazel (why may explain the lyrics to an old sitcom theme song.) The schlemiel is the guy who always trips on the carpet while trying to bring you a bowl of soup, the schlemazel is the guy it always lands on. My favorite Yiddish swear word is something I won't attempt to spell here, but which means "Go take a shit on the ocean." I used to overhear my grandmother say it to my grandfather all the time. Thanks to all who wrote me on & off-list with music recommendations, by the way, looks like I'll be having some interesting listening coming up soon. MK (w/a PH) - -- ======== This is a piece by Peter Fruendlich heard on NPR. All right, let me see if I understand the logic of this correctly. We are going to ignore the United Nations in order to make clear to Saddam Hussein that the United Nations cannot be ignored. We're going to wage war to preserve the UN's ability to avert war. The paramount principle is that the UN's word must be taken seriously, and if we have to subvert its word to guarantee that it is, then by gun, we will. Peace is too important not to take up arms to defend it. Am I getting this right? Further, if the only way to bring democracy to Iraq is to vitiate the democracy of the Security Council, then we are honor bound to that too, because democracy, as we define it, is too important to be stopped by a little thing like democracy as they see it. Also, in dealing with a man who brooks no dissension at home, we cannot afford dissension among ourselves. We must speak with one voice against Saddam Hussein's failure to allow opposing voices to be heard. We are sending our gathered might to the Persian Gulf to make the point that might does not make right, as Saddam Hussein seems to think it does. And we are twisting the arms of the opposition until it agrees to let us oust a regime that twists the arms of the opposition. We cannot leave in power a dictator who ignores his own people. And if our people, and people elsewhere in the world, fail to understand that, then we have no choice but to ignore them. Listen. Don't misunderstand. I think it is good that the members of the Bush administration seem to have been reading Lewis Carroll. I only wish someone had pointed out that "Alice in Wonderland" and "Through the Looking Glass" are meditations on paradox and puzzle and illogic and on the strangeness of things, not templates for foreign policy. It is amusing for the Mad Hatter to say something like, "We must make war on him because he is a threat to peace," but not amusing for someone who commands an army to say that. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 08:32:53 +0000 From: "Brian Hoare" Subject: Re: beer! >Emersons may only be available in the South Island - it's a local Dunedin >brewery. She's on the right island then, resting up in Christchurch at the moment. She has voted in favour of NZ over UK beers Some may dispute her authority on the subject:) "I think the beers taste nicer here - but that might be because I'm on holiday. At home I usually drink wine rather than beer - and if I drink beer I like the Czech and Belgian stuff, especially that funky white beer that I can't remember the name of. Here the beers seem less gassy - they don't make you feel so bloated as in the UK! " I'll wrap this up in a month's time when she's had a chance to sample some of the US offerings. Brian np Nick Drake, Bryter Layter _________________________________________________________________ Use MSN Messenger to send music and pics to your friends http://messenger.msn.co.uk ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V12 #109 ********************************