From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V12 #64 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Saturday, February 22 2003 Volume 12 : Number 064 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Thoughts on Iraq [Aaron Mandel ] Re: anti-war movement [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] The fish went through the trees... ["Eugene Hopstetter, Jr." ] I don't care about the money, just make them stop (O% war or whimsy) ["Jo] Re: reap ["FS Thomas" ] Re: I don't care about the money, just make them stop (O% war or whimsy) [Sebastian Hagedorn ] warm and fuzzy [Ken Ostrander ] Re: warm and fuzzy [The Great Quail ] Re: warm and fuzzy [Ken Ostrander ] the stupidest thing I have ever seen ["Michael E. Kupietz, wearing a poin] Re: warm and fuzzy [steve ] Re: Thoughts on Iraq [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] grounding a turntable ["Brooks Martin" ] Re: I don't care about the money, just make them stop (O% war or whimsy) [Jeff Dwarf ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 14:06:33 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: Thoughts on Iraq On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, The Great Quail wrote: > So there's the rub -- while morally I would like to see us help out Iraq > by ridding them of this dictatorship, I know that we are not doing it > for the right reasons, nor would it play out in the context of a more > justifiable and sane Middle-East policy. And of course, what happens > after the war? This is the crux of my feelings about it... most of the good arguments I've heard in favor of war depend on the war being carried out with priorities that don't seem to be the ones our government *has*. Being "for war on Iraq" is like being "for budget increases" without reference to what the extra money's going to be spent on. It's not just an abstract issue (i.e. is it okay to do the right thing for the wrong reason?); our priorities will very much affect what happens when we go in. a ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 13:39:25 -0600 (CST) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: anti-war movement On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, The Great Quail wrote: > Man, the knee-jerk ranting that passes for political commentary on this list > is all too typical of why the left has nearly rendered themselves impotent. Could be - but knee-jerk ranting seems in no short supply on the right, and yet they're doing alright for themselves... - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::I feel that all movies should have things that happen in them:: __TV's Frank__ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 11:46:26 -0800 (PST) From: "Eugene Hopstetter, Jr." Subject: The fish went through the trees... Wow, actual Robyn content. Sorta. Here's a link to a *wonderful* short QuickTime film by Industrial Light and Magic called "Work in Progress." It made me smile and I couldn't help think of Robyn when the fish swim through the trees: http://www.ilm.com/ilmshorts.html The chihuahuaraffe is a winner, too. . Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 13:50:34 -0600 (CST) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: reap On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, FS Thomas wrote: > Any news on their guitarist? Has he turned up? I think that should be a "b"... - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::Never drive a car when you're dead:: __Tom Waits__ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 14:53:05 -0500 (EST) From: "Jonathan Fetter" Subject: I don't care about the money, just make them stop (O% war or whimsy) Suit Filed Against Exhibitors over Pre-Movie Advertisement: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news? tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030220/film_nm/film_movieads_dc_1 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 14:54:38 -0500 From: "FS Thomas" Subject: Re: reap - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey" > On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, FS Thomas wrote: > > > Any news on their guitarist? Has he turned up? > > I think that should be a "b"... I had originally typed "had they managed to dig him up yet" and thought that, while ambiguous enough, was leaning to far to the morose. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 21:03:06 +0100 From: Sebastian Hagedorn Subject: Re: I don't care about the money, just make them stop (O% war or whimsy) - --On Freitag, 21. Februar 2003 14:53 Uhr -0500 Jonathan Fetter wrote: > Suit Filed Against Exhibitors over Pre-Movie Advertisement: > > http://story.news.yahoo.com/news? > tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030220/film_nm/film_movieads_dc_1 You don't know how lucky you are! In Germany commercials for more than 30 minutes, starting at the advertised time, aren't unusual. And it's not as though tickets were much cheaper over here ... - -- Sebastian Hagedorn PGP key ID: 0x4D105B45 Ehrenfeldg|rtel 156 50823 Kvln http://www.spinfo.uni-koeln.de/~hgd/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:16:15 EST From: HSatterfld@aol.com Subject: a humorous political commentary from Terry Jones (OT) http://www.observer.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,882459,00.html (Perhaps someone can confirm that this is _the_Terry Jones?) Hollie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 13:43:05 -0700 From: "Marc Holden" Subject: London area shows Hey there London area Hitchcock fans-- I'm just trying to get a bit of information here. Are there any interesting concerts in the London area between the 26th of February and the 4th of March? Any show information or links to sites that might list London area concerts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks a lot, Marc I believe in making the world safe for our children, but not our children's children, because I don't think children should be having sex. Jack Handey ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:33:03 -0500 From: Ken Ostrander Subject: warm and fuzzy > Anyone have a romantic V-Day story to share? Don't look at me.... called in sick and spent the day in bed with my wife, keeping warm. we've had some problems with heat in our apartment. we live in an old farm house with no insulation and, despite paying huge heating bills, have still been frickin' freezin'. we finally moved our bed to the living room and were able to close it off from the rest of the house and heat the room, with a little help from a ceramic heater. we have grounds to break the lease. we're seriously considering leaving the area completely and going to florida where there is a lot of available work in my wife's field. there's a glut of clinitions here in boston. i had another warm moment this past weekend when i caught my wife singing along with 'if you know time' on a mix cd that i made for her. i made sure to put it right after a particular u2 song that she loves. >What with everyone enthusing about John Cale I'm surprised no-one's mentioned that The Soft Boys 'borrowed' his excellent arrangement of Heartbreak Hotel. i did. well, i mentioned 'heartbreak hotel' as one of the songs for which i've got many versions. two from the soft boys. i also expressed confusion, since i remembered that cale's version of 'hallelujah' was featured in the actual movie of _shrek_, even though the less satisfying rufus wainwright version was featured on the released soundtrack album. someone said that wasn't the case; but it is. >What a small world-I finally hear a Brian Eno song in an >Italian movie that I recognized from a New Zealand sig file. weird. i just saw that movie last week. >Anybody know anything about Walt Mink? I've heard a few songs by him >(they?) and they were all really good. they're a band. they do a great cover of 'pink moon' actually. >Steely Dan's "Can't Buy A Thrill", "Katy Lied", "Pretzel Logic", "The Royal >Scam" - uh, I guess, pretty much every one except "Aja", "Gaucho" and >maaaaybe "Countdown To Ecstasy". It's always amazed me how consistently >lousy their cover art was. Even the reunion album "Two Against Nature" has >a lousy cover. the first album that lept to mind for me was _countdown to ecstasy_. i dispise that one. my copy is a hand-me-down with actual faces drawn in on the cover. another album cover that i don't much care for is _ok computer_ i have to say that i've always liked _blonde on blonde_. probably because zimmerman reminds me of tom baker. >this isn't really too far from "Virgin Gives Birth To Son in Barn". > > > > > >More than 90 percent of Indonesia's 210 million are Muslim, though many >still believe in sprits and the unseen world. According to Islamic >tradition, Indonesian boys are normally circumcised, usually when they reach >the age of 6 or 7. why do they wait so long? so they can get attached to their foreskin and it feels like a sacrifice? i've read about the health benefits associated with circumcision; but isn't there a school of thought that says it's better to be uncircumcised? am i the only one who thinks of genital mutilation? >By the time we dump all our dollars into the military and >fuchsia alerts and super duct tape, there won't be anything left to >protect here. it does seem illogical to have all of our troops surrounding iraq. who's going to "secure the homeland"? of course, the money isn't there. the budget proposal put forth by the administration will pay for our pre-emptive use of weapons of mass destruction with a huge deficit. we'll be paying for our "new american century" until the next one. >>Are you guys around the continents feeling the panic in the air that Shrub is causing? People are going nuts. On the Dallas news last night, they showed people wrapping their houses in plastic and stocking up on water. It's like being in the twilight zone! my wife was very concerned about it last week. we bought extra supplies of water, canned goods, and scooby doo; but stopped short of plastic and duct tape. i stayed home sick for a few days during the "eid al-adha" day of sacrifice, rather than come to work here at the military industrial technocracy. i love reading about the "chatter" that intelligence sources are hearing. there were similar warnings before september 11 that went unheeded. http://nafeez.mediamonitors.net/book/index2.html > "Among other things, this body would launch secret operations aimed at > 'stimulating reactions' among terrorists and states possessing weapons of > mass destruction - that is, for instance, prodding terrorist cells into > action and exposing themselves to 'quick-response' attacks by U.S. forces." i have the image of a cattle prod in my head. reminds me of cointelpro. "agent provocateurs" have been infiltrating radical organizations for decades. when double-agents couldn't incite groups to violence, they planted evidence of wrongdoing. and worse... http://www.anarres.org.au/reviews/churchill_agents.htm >Sometimes war is the only way to peace; sometimes the only way to help >some of the very poorest people on Earth is to bomb their houses and kill >their family - it's simple er, common sense... or sensible treatment of the commoners. despite the rhetoric about fostering democracy and human rights, we have been working to make sure that the resources of this planet do not fall into the hands of the people. http://sweb.uky.edu/~jahanl1/911/archive/oil-draffan.html >If we are going to hold Saddam's atrocious behavior up as evidence that we >can bomb Iraq, even without UN imprimatur, there would no longer be any >precedent to prevent any other nation from bombing us for our misdeeds. that's why the u.s. has refused to recognize any international court that might try us for said misdeeds. and, while i have no affection for saddam, the whole "gassed his own people" thing is still pretty fuzzy: http://foi.missouri.edu/polinfoprop/warcrime.html preemptive war is simply wrong. there are many countries currently in violation un security council resolutions: http://www.fpif.org/commentary/2002/0210unres_body.html >Is it worth pointing out that the British government was happily (if >clandestinely) supplying arms to Iraq in the eighties, at the same time >as the French were supplying nuclear power stations? and how many u.s. companies supplied iraq during that time? and why did the united states try to cover it up? oh right, national security. http://www.democracynow.org/Zumach.htm >So there's the rub -- while morally I would like to see us help out Iraq by >ridding them of this dictatorship, I know that we are not doing it for the >right reasons, nor would it play out in the context of a more justifiable >and sane Middle-East policy. And of course, what happens after the war? http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17038 business as usual. the marshall plan was an anomaly. our current administration is not interested in a solution other than their own. they have made plain their plan of regime change from the very start. look to afghanistan for your model on a new iraq. while i'd also like to see democracy in iraq; i don't think that it is in the "interests" of the united states. it's a lot cheaper to keep the people in line with repression. that's good for business. after all, we don't want iraq to nationalize the oil fields like the venezuelians have. then we'd have to pay more...or worse, we'd have an emboldened arab people. the united nations should oversee new elections in iraq (and what the hell, here in the united states as well). of course, they'll need the support of u.s. military forces. arguably, democratic socialism in europe owes its very existance to nato forces. that doesn't mean that they have to let the u.s. take control of the huge oil reserves under the iraqi sands. inspections haven't been working because the intelligence community is not very forthcoming. there are different groups competing with each other. none of them want the un to show them up. >I don't think there's been a successful communist-run nation yet, has there? >With a booming economy? china? success is all relative, isn't it? of course, communism is an ideal. socialism is the ladder. isn't it all about workers getting the fruits of their labor? isn't it all about redistribution of resources? when a small group takes over making decisions for the masses, you're going to have a problem. it's funny how we are quick to oppose communist dictators who keep out business interests by nationalizing their economies; but we are buddy-buddy with dictators that make things easy for business. ken "in the warm long heat of love" the kenster np you are free cat power http://www.mtv.com/music/first_listen/cat_power/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 16:05:29 -0500 From: The Great Quail Subject: Re: warm and fuzzy Ken writes, > business as usual. the marshall plan was an anomaly. our current > administration is not interested in a solution other than their own. they have > made plain their plan of regime change from the very start. look to > afghanistan for your model on a new iraq. For once, I am -- sadly -- in complete agreement with you. > inspections haven't been working because the intelligence community is not > very forthcoming. there are different groups competing with each other. none > of them want the un to show them up. Inspections have not worked because Saddam Hussein is a clever man who has had plenty of time to inculcate a secret network, and with the UN in his pocket, he can stall all he wants. I mean, does anyone think the French, Russians or Germans are going to cause him to change? >> I don't think there's been a successful communist-run nation yet, has there? >> With a booming economy? > > china? success is all relative, isn't it? Yeah, using China as an example proves that, I guess. Soaring AIDS rate, low technological innovation, repressive view towards human rights; and slowly leaning towards capitalism as we speak. > when a small group takes over making decisions for the masses, you're going to > have a problem. This is how government has always worked, no matter what philosophical "ladder" one used to climb towards an idea. You really want the tyranny of the masses? The fact is, "you are always going to have a problem," period. - --Q ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 17:33:23 -0500 From: Ken Ostrander Subject: Re: warm and fuzzy >Inspections have not worked because Saddam Hussein is a clever man who has >had plenty of time to inculcate a secret network, and with the UN in his >pocket, he can stall all he wants. I mean, does anyone think the French, >Russians or Germans are going to cause him to change? well, saddam has been setting himself up as martyr. he apologized to god and to kuwait for actions that, unbeknownst to him, may have been wrong or sinful. he has gotten rid of a lot of his weapons, and, thus far, inspectors haven't found that smoking gun. he has been telling his people that the united states is going to enslave them for their oil. is it likely that he has changed? no; but he's playing the game. and the fact is that this is just that: a dangerous political game. anyone can play, as long as they've got nuclear capability; but so far that's still a pretty exclusive club. why shouldn't any nation be trying to get a nuke to play at the big boys table? i wouldn't say that saddam has the un in his pocket; rather, he has played along. the united states has used the united nations much more than saddam ever could. there is a world of difference between the security council (with it's veto-power wielding permanent members) and the masses of the general assembly. >> when a small group takes over making decisions for the masses, you're going > to have a problem. > >This is how government has always worked, no matter what philosophical >"ladder" one used to climb towards an idea. You really want the tyranny of >the masses? > >The fact is, "you are always going to have a problem," period. which is why proportional representation is so important. rather than the back and forth between republican and democratic dynasties each cancelling out what the last one did, we could be building solutions that work for everyone. granted, it takes a lot longer; but the more voices that are heard, the better a decision will be made. when people are left without a voice, then they have a right to be upset. the "tyranny of the masses" wouldn't the horror that you imply if people were educated instead of placated. one reason that many people don't get involved or simply don't care is because of their experience. they know that they don't count; so they don't bother. another reason is that many people don't have a sense of what their freedoms are worth because they never had to fight for them and, therefore, take them for granted. then there's the folks who bow out saying, "leave that to the experts." people are easily led, and in this age there are more sophisticated bread and circus distractions. the problem is cyclical. every generation needs to be educated on how to keep the government in check. if we take care of people's basic needs, then they might just have a little extra time and energy to get involved. we should educate our children in civics and require everyone to do social service and community building. we need to teach empowerment. ken "ready to go home" the kenster ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 18:30:24 -0800 From: "Michael E. Kupietz, wearing a pointy hat" Subject: the stupidest thing I have ever seen - --- begin forwarded text better than virtual post-it note, better than virtual glue stick. http://www.virtualstapler.com/ - --- end forwarded text - -- ======== We need love, expression, and truth. We must not allow ourselves to believe that we can fill the round hole of our spirit with the square peg of objective rationale. - Paul Eppinger At non effugies meos iambos - Gaius Valerius Catallus ("...but you won't get away from my poems.") "Moderation in all things, except Wild Turkey." - Evel Knievel ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 20:45:49 -0600 From: steve Subject: Re: warm and fuzzy > Ken writes, >> look to afghanistan for your model on a new iraq. On Friday, February 21, 2003, at 03:05 PM, The Great Quail wrote: > For once, I am -- sadly -- in complete agreement with you. Yes, the Bushies are doing a shit job in Afghanistan. But, you know, there's really not much there for them to be interested in. Of course, that leaves the nasties lurking about not too far outside the city limits. Iraq is light years ahead of Afghanistan in terms of resources and social organization. There's plenty there to work with, although it will take billions to get the oil facilities back to regular production. It's seeming pretty certain that Bush will install an American (civilian) overseer for at least a couple of years. The big question is whether the Bushies have the wisdom and enough good will to pull off nation building. I doubt it, but maybe they'll get lucky. But I'm thinking they'll deal in their cronies on the post-war goodies, not to mention letting the Turks fuck over the Kurds again. I think that the only honest argument that can be made for taking over Iraq is that the US is a super power and it will do what it will. (And the Bushies have been doing everything they can to avoid making it). Even with the best intentions, this is an arrogant position. In the hands of the Bushies, well... I think they're conducting their foreign policy just as they would their domestic policy, if it were not for some checks on their power. The West is riding the tiger, over a century old, and it's going to take some unique kung fu to jump off without getting bitten. - - Steve __________ President Bush met privately with top officials from the Salvation Army in May to discuss his "faith-based" initiative while the White House was reviewing a request from the charity for a regulation protecting it from local workplace nondiscrimination laws based on sexual orientation. - Dana Milbank, Washington Post ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 21:17:41 -0600 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: Thoughts on Iraq First, let me state that whatever my disagreements with Quail's post, I praise it as a highly thoughtful and intelligent examination of the issues. Anyway... Quoting The Great Quail : > And, yes, I do believe we have a moral obligation here in Iraq, despite > our > own hypocrisies. (I am nauseated at the way we prop up tyrannical regimes > in > the first place.) War is loathsome, but I am not a pacifist. In this > case, > war probably a better solution than the horrible sanctions and this > interminable waiting game, where we bomb Hussein on-and-off while his > people > suffer under our sanctions and his ruthless rule. A moral obligation in Iraq is not the same as *our* (US) obligation in Iraq. And of course, a huge problem here is that even if we as US citizens feel we specifically have a moral obligation in Iraq, that in itself is absolutely no guarantee that the actions our government takes will work to absolve that obligation - in fact, that such actions will not make it worse and create further, more onerous moral obligations. > Secondly, to address inspections, the holy grail of the UN and most US > liberals. I do not believe inspections will work without the immediate > threat of overwhelming violence. I believe that anyone who "trusts" > either > the effete and compromised UN or Hussein himself is hopelessly naove. The > UN > is a joke, and the inspections are the punchline. Of course, they may be > a > necessary joke to tell, as credibility and allies are two nice things to > have. But they haven't worked in the past, and they are not working now. If the UN is a joke, it's largely a joke because the most powerful nation in the world treats it as such. The case for humanitarian intervention (and I take it that your reasons for favoring intervention follow from this logic - not that you've necessary concluded overall that you favor intervention) seems to me to require such intervention to be undertaken *without* favoring any one nation's political interests...and clearly, with Iraq this is not now possible, nor is it likely to be so in the immediate future. US intervention - even UN intervention led by the US - is almost certain to be undertaken to further US interests - not to prevent humanitarian abuse. (And I should state that my long rant about US culpability a couple of days ago intentionally painted only the worst picture of the US. One point of my using that strategy was to show that *any* nation can, looking at the wrong things, be depicted as wholly evil and motivated by the worst factors.) Finally, on an issue that seems to follow from Quail's paragraph above: I have never been able to fathom the moral logic that prohibits assassination of foreign leaders while approving warfare. If Saddam is guilty, then shouldn't he be the one to suffer for his actions? Quail says he's not a pacifist: I may well be one, because I simply have a very hard time countenancing actions that inevitably lead to the deaths of wholly innocent peoples. And yes, I know that Saddam is already guilty of such actions...but does our ensuring more of the same make up for that? ..Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: This album is dedicated to anyone who started out as an animal and :: winds up as a processing unit. :: --Soft Boys, note, _Can of Bees_ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 17:42:22 -0800 From: "Brooks Martin" Subject: grounding a turntable Ken (and anyone else interested) Your first concern when hooking your turntable up to your MAC or PC isn't grounding (though that's essential too) but the RIAA EQ that you need to transfer to straight line level. To plug a turntable into a line level input such as the one on your computer you need something like this. Not only does it get your signal up to snuff, but it provides a terminal for grounding on the unit. Your home stereo has a phono input as well as a host of line inputs. To see(hear) what I'm talking about in terms of the RIAA EQ curve just plug your turntable into one of the other inputs and listen to the difference. Hope that helps! Now burn CD's of all your rare Robyn! Actually, I can't think of much that hasn't been digitized already. That promo only interview record from 88 maybe? Anyway, Fegs up, Hos down!(jk) Brooks Martin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 23:02:28 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Dwarf Subject: Re: I don't care about the money, just make them stop (O% war or whimsy) Sebastian Hagedorn wrote: > Jonathan Fetter wrote: >> Suit Filed Against Exhibitors over Pre-Movie Advertisement: >> http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030220/film_nm/film_movieads_dc_1 > > You don't know how lucky you are! In Germany commercials for > more than 30 minutes, starting at the advertised time, aren't > unusual. And it's not as though tickets were much cheaper over > here ... As annoying as they are, this suit sounds like a waste of time. Sorry, but court time should be reserved for really problems, not just annoyances that _are_ ultimately trivial. Besides, I think it would be much more effective to either: a) just not use the products/businesses that are advertised, making the ads ineffective and a waste of money; b) start showing up later to movies so that you miss the ads; or c) if possible, go to theatres that don't sell the ads. If the ads aren't effective at drumming up business for the advertisers, they won't sell and they won't be a problem. ===== "Propaganda is that branch of the art of lying which consists in very nearly deceiving your friends without quite deceiving your enemies." -- F.M. Cornford "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt . Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 13:29:43 -0500 From: Fric Chaud Subject: Re: Catching up, with also a bit of RH On 12 Feb 2002 at 2:35, James Dignan wrote: > Back online after a gap of several days and a replaced logic chip (in > the computer that is - mine's as faulty as ever) I think you still need to adjust your clock. You sent that letter last year. > Steve, Fric, calm down. There's more to who you are than what drive > you drive. Build on both being Robyn fans, rather than on your > different OSes Thank for the sage advice. I am both a Robyn fan, and I agree it makes more important that my better choice of platform. Peace! RH: I have hear Robyn recorded in Chicaco, and I think he makes the SB songs his own when he plays them alone. I wonder would we think those songs different if he had never reunited with the SB, and would he have written them? I think no, and yes. PS: Too much American politics here today. Please discuss Quebec's struggle for the yes instead. - -- Fric Chaud ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 12:17:08 -0800 From: Barbara Soutar Subject: Re: anti-war movement Marcy Tanter said: "I haven't really been keeping up with this thread (I have to grade papers sometime!) but it seems to me that one must bear in mind that France was the most ravaged country during both of world wars and they have a little perspective on what war does to a nation and what the implications could be for nations who support an offensive on Iraq. Foreign policy aside, there are humanitarian issues involved that the US gov't doesn't care about, as George Bush so eloquently noted the other day when he said that he doesn't care about the peace rallies held around the world last weekend, if he wants to bomb Iraq he will. Attacking Iraq is not equivalent to deposing Hussein from power, a lot of people will be killed, including Americans both there involved in the fight and around the world. No one should kid themselves into believing that if we attack Iraq no one is going to attack us somewhere. Once we strike Iraq, anything could happen." Hi, I have to agree with Marcy on this, European countries had their lives seriously ravaged by the 2nd World War. (For instance, my father emigrated to Canada from England in 1950 after serving in Sicily with the British Army because it was so depressing to live in England after the war, with bombed neighbourhoods, a destroyed economy and endless rationing.) This is no doubt behind most European countries UNITED reluctance to go to war, not shady money deals and "friendship" with Saddam Hussain. Once you start looking around the world there are all kinds of human rights violations happening that would keep world policemen endlessly busy. In China for instance. And Africa. Barbara Soutar Victoria, British Columbia ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V12 #64 *******************************