From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V12 #62 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Friday, February 21 2003 Volume 12 : Number 062 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: anti-war movement [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: Poll question of the day [Tom Clark ] Re: anti-war movement [Aaron Mandel ] Tiny shirts for little grrls [Scott Hunter McCleary ] Re: anti-war movement ["Michael E. Kupietz, wearing a pointy hat" ] Re: But, really, why would a genie need a foreskin? Stem cell researc h? [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] "I always felt he overused those in his valentines, too" (100% politics-free) [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: No wonder the world is so fucked up... [steve ] Re: anti-war movement ["matt sewell" ] Great White's Guitarist Among the Missing in RI Club Fire ["FS Thomas" ] Re: anti-war movement [Christopher Gross ] Re: worst covers (100% Tull) ["FS Thomas" ] Re: that's what I love about democracy [Ken Weingold ] Re: anti-war movement [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: worst covers (100% Tull) ["Jonathan Fetter" ] Re: anti-war movement [steve ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 17:54:12 -0600 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: anti-war movement Quoting FS Thomas : > Some protestors surprisingly displaying common sense here: > http://www.ochremedia.com/protest.php4 I would've thought slavery and fascism (I'll subsume "Nazism" under the latter) *led* to war...and in the specific instance of Nazism, arguably war *gave birth* to it, in that the surrender conditions of WWI impoverished the German people to the extent that a manipulative demogogue like...uh, that guy Godwin doesn't want us to mention in debates...could come along and appeal to people. As to war ending communism...uh, what planet are these protestors from? Gorbachev ended the Soviet Union - peacefully - and only people who think Ronald Reagan should be sainted (i.e., the insane) think the Cold War did it. Anyway, a cold war isn't a war proper. Above and beyond all that, just because war might have in the past eliminated some evils (and who's to say that other ways might not have done so more efficiently and less bloodily), that says nothing about its likelihood of doing so in *this* situation. Even *if* one grants the US the moral authority to bomb the fuck out of Iraq(*), even though we're not under attack; even *if* one grants that such bombing would drive out or kill Saddam; even *if* one grants that the Iraqi people would welcome a US puppet government (the notion that after driving out Saddam, the US would let just anyone rule is ludicrous); and even *if* one grants that such a victory could happen quickly and cheaply: on the very grounds that Bush wants to fight such a battle, it's likely to cause worse problems than it solves. *If* Saddam has WMD and chem/bio weapons, he's more likely to use them if Iraq is under attack. *If* Saddam has ties to international terror, specifically al Qaeda, attacking Iraq is likely to lead to more terrorism. And no ifs: the bombing of a major Middle Eastern (if secular) state by the US is almost certain to create greater antagonism against the US, and lead to more trouble, more terror, down the road. (*) The US is the only country to have used nuclear weapons. We've also tested them, and chemical and biological weapons, with rampant disregard for the health of our own citizens. Despite our nation's massive wealth, from 1/7 to 1/6 of the nation lives in poverty. Racial terror still exists, as evidenced in gross disparities between black and white in nearly every category one can measure, up to and including arrest rate, severity of conviction, length of sentencing, and likelihood of judicial murder. Draconian drug laws allow the confiscation of property *without trial*, and even if no evidence is demonstrated suggesting guilt, the govt. does not have to return such property. And under the Ashcroftian assault on liberty, even US citizens can be held indefinitely, without being charged, without lawyers, without being convicted, and without any way of anyone else knowing who's being held, where, or why. (Oh - and blatantly manipulated thwartings of the will of the people, including racially motivated exclusions of voters...) If we are going to hold Saddam's atrocious behavior up as evidence that we can bomb Iraq, even without UN imprimatur, there would no longer be any precedent to prevent any other nation from bombing us for our misdeeds. ..Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: This album is dedicated to anyone who started out as an animal and :: winds up as a processing unit. :: --Soft Boys, note, _Can of Bees_ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 15:56:33 -0800 From: Tom Clark Subject: Re: Poll question of the day on 2/20/03 1:45 PM, Eb at ElBroome@earthlink.net wrote: > http://pub20.ezboard.com/fkingofpopdiscussionfrm15.showMessage?topicID=141.top > ic&pollResults=on Holy shit. The scariest part is the poem - "I watch the blood as it pools beneath me, I shudder and breathe at the pain it cease A slice! another one! I wince in pain, For without Michael, I have nothing to gain" Call 911 ASAP - -tc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 19:07:40 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: anti-war movement On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, Michael E. Kupietz, wearing a pointy hat wrote: > be against this war is because they are "with the enemy", so to speak. > Sure, France must be with the bad guys. That's it. Being, say, SANE, or > NOT RULED BY GREED, or NOT FOOLED BY LYING AMERICAN LEADERS couldn't > possibly have anything to do with it! Who said it didn't? Good lord, you've got to be spoiling for an argument to pull one out of as even-tempered an article as that. > Also, uh, we have a *bit* of history with Hussein ourselves, of exactly > the sort that this article casts aspersions upon French leadership for > having... not that that's important, though, right? My country, right or > wrong! America uber alles! Calm down, Michael. > I'm going to file this article under "hypocritical propaganda" and > forget about it. This is exactly the sort of effort at demonization of > any and all opposition that is historically so common from societies > trying to rationalize immoral courses of action. You seem to be attributing to others the outrageous belief that it is impossible for someone to do the right thing for the wrong reason -- that is, you are assuming that if someone criticizes Chirac's motivations or priorities, they must be doing it to "prove" Chirac wrong. By your logic, any discussion of geopolitics right now is an argument for war or against it. aaron ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 19:33:37 -0500 From: Scott Hunter McCleary Subject: Tiny shirts for little grrls Rex said: Very cool for 14. That could quite well be her by then. Dunno about 2. However, I really do want to find a Sleater-Kinney shirt in size 4T for her. Guess I'll have to make one. I've got a 5T who would take one (though she's kinda getting into a skiffle phase thanks to her uncle). You'd think some smart merch manager would catch on. Nothing cuter than a three year old with a Bangs shirt.;) - -- ========= SH McCleary Prodigal Dog Communications PO Box 6163 Arlington, VA 22206 shmac@prodigaldog.com www.prodigaldog.com www.1480kHz.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 17:22:25 -0800 From: "Michael E. Kupietz, wearing a pointy hat" Subject: Re: anti-war movement Nyah, nyah! I can't hear you! At 7:07 PM -0500 2/20/03, those funny voices I hear when no one else is around called themselves "Aaron Mandel" and whispered: >On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, Michael E. Kupietz, wearing a pointy hat wrote: > >> be against this war is because they are "with the enemy", so to speak. >> Sure, France must be with the bad guys. That's it. Being, say, SANE, or >> NOT RULED BY GREED, or NOT FOOLED BY LYING AMERICAN LEADERS couldn't >> possibly have anything to do with it! > >Who said it didn't? Good lord, you've got to be spoiling for an argument >to pull one out of as even-tempered an article as that. > >> Also, uh, we have a *bit* of history with Hussein ourselves, of exactly >> the sort that this article casts aspersions upon French leadership for >> having... not that that's important, though, right? My country, right or >> wrong! America uber alles! > >Calm down, Michael. > >> I'm going to file this article under "hypocritical propaganda" and >> forget about it. This is exactly the sort of effort at demonization of >> any and all opposition that is historically so common from societies >> trying to rationalize immoral courses of action. > >You seem to be attributing to others the outrageous belief that it is >impossible for someone to do the right thing for the wrong reason -- that >is, you are assuming that if someone criticizes Chirac's motivations or >priorities, they must be doing it to "prove" Chirac wrong. By your logic, >any discussion of geopolitics right now is an argument for war or against >it. > >aaron - -- ======== We need love, expression, and truth. We must not allow ourselves to believe that we can fill the round hole of our spirit with the square peg of objective rationale. - Paul Eppinger At non effugies meos iambos - Gaius Valerius Catallus ("...but you won't get away from my poems.") "Moderation in all things, except Wild Turkey." - Evel Knievel ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 17:43:45 -0800 From: "Rex.Broome" Subject: But, really, why would a genie need a foreskin? Stem cell researc h? Jeff D: >>"Hey! You've got penis on my record sleeves!" >>"Oh yeah? You've got record sleeves on my penis!" What's really funny is that you ommitted the inevitable next line: "Tastes great!" _________ MEKWAPH: Hey, you're not wearing a pointy hat in that photo! But you can retain the initials... "Michael E. Kupietz, waving a political..." ummm... what starts with H and means "slogan" or something like that? "Hieroglyph" just won't cut it, will it? __________ Eb: >>I ended up standing behind a petite little gal who "danced cute" -- you >>know, all those dainty, bird-like, over-the-head hand flicks which >>only short girls can pull off without looking ridiculous Hmmmm. I just can't picture this dance at all, although it does sound interesting. Not the gothy full-body shimmy? That usually involves more hands in front of the face than over the head... - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 02:54:59 +1300 From: grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan) Subject: Re: worst covers >> Okay, in the '70s the album that finally made me give up on Tull: _The >> Broadsword and the Beast_. Yes, the cover's as awful as the title's as awful >> as the music. as far as Tull's covers go, "Too old to rock'n'roll" has to take the cake for worst, surely? James James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand. =-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= .-=-.-=-.-=-.- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-. -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= You talk to me as if from a distance =-.-=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time -=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 21:11:08 -0500 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: Cannot find Weapons of Mass Destruction taking a break from developing films in coffee: "The weapons you are looking for are currently unavailable." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 18:24:54 -0800 From: Eb Subject: Re: But, really, why would a genie need a foreskin? > >>I ended up standing behind a petite little gal who "danced cute" -- you >>>know, all those dainty, bird-like, over-the-head hand flicks which >>>only short girls can pull off without looking ridiculous > >Hmmmm. I just can't picture this dance at all, although it does sound >interesting. Not the gothy full-body shimmy? That usually involves more >hands in front of the face than over the head... Not goth...like I said, the crowd wasn't any more goth than at any other alt-rock show. Um...I guess I could have painted a better picture, but I started running out of steam about 75% through that post. ;) Put off finishing it for a day, even. Imagine making a "periscope" with one arm, and sorta swiveling your wrist and thrusting your fingertips with the beat. Alternate which arm is up, now and then. Add pumping torso and hips. She moved with an obvious natural coordination. The type of dancer who makes you think "Hm, I bet she makes her boyfriend very happy." ;) The crowd was thick and she was right in front of me, so for better or worse, she was in my field of vision for the entire set. Given our height disparity, I was occasionally in danger of being poked by her fingers. ;) I believe she worked up more of a sweat than Interpol did. Heh. Eb, freshly back from a run and deeply frustrated about every thing ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 20:47:41 -0600 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: fame awaits... http://www.scenario.com/people/hello/001071.html Someone is apparently impressed with one of my .sig files...which came from a member of this very list! - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: PLEASE! You are sending cheese information to me. I don't want it. :: I have no goats or cows or any other milk producing animal! :: --"raus" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 20:49:56 -0600 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: But, really, why would a genie need a foreskin? Stem cell researc h? Quoting "Rex.Broome" : > Jeff D: > >>"Hey! You've got penis on my record sleeves!" > >>"Oh yeah? You've got record sleeves on my penis!" > > What's really funny is that you ommitted the inevitable next line: > "Tastes great!" Uh-and the even more inevitable next next line (in some cases): "Less filling!" ..Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: it's not your meat :: --Mr. Toad ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 21:59:59 -0500 (EST) From: Jill Brand Subject: that's what I love about democracy It was written and then written some more: ">I know it's always a crapshoot to do crowd estimation, but has anyone seen a >worldwide estimate of total protestors? About 30 million. " But remember what fearless butthead said - that's what he loves about democracy. People can express their opinions, but he doesn't have to pay attention to any of them because he stole the election. Jill ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 21:38:01 -0600 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: "I always felt he overused those in his valentines, too" (100% politics-free) http://www.theonion.com/onion3906/girlfriend_stops_reading.html ..Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: Some days, you just can't get rid of a bomb :: --Batman ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 01:31:38 -0500 From: Ken Weingold Subject: grounding a turntable Anyone have any tips for grounding my turntable? I brought it into my bedroom to record some vinyl into my Mac. I have the ground wire under one of the screws of my PC, which is plugged in but not turned on. There is a fairly low but definitely noticeable hum coming from the speakers when I have the pass-through on. If I unplug the PC the hum gets a lot louder, so it's working, at least somewhat. Is this the best I can do or is there a better way? Thanks. - -Ken ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 00:41:20 -0600 From: steve Subject: Re: No wonder the world is so fucked up... On Thursday, February 20, 2003, at 03:54 PM, Tom Clark wrote: > According to Islamic tradition, Indonesian boys are normally > circumcised, > usually when they reach the age of 6 or 7. And we wonder why they're so mad at everybody? - - Steve __________ It's time to stop all this dancing around and call Bush's [Axis Of Evil] speech what it is: a flight of idiocy. - David Talbot ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 09:39:24 +0000 From: "matt sewell" Subject: Re: anti-war movement I just want to point out that just because I agree with Chirac's stance against the war in Iraq, it doesn't follow that I think he's doing for the right reasons or that I think he's any less a self interested bastard than, say "president" Shrub or the Rt Hon Member for Texas, T. Blair... Cheers Matt I expect that someone's already pointed out that war didn't end communism, haven't they? >From: "Michael E. Kupietz, wearing a pointy hat" > >At 5:00 PM -0500 2/20/03, those funny voices I hear when no one else is >around called themselves "FS Thomas" and whispered: > >It's funny, because on one of the posters (from Nice, France) is a picture > >of Chirac and Hussein, with text saying "Thirty Years of Close Relations." > >Thirty years of close Franco-Iraqi relations is right...starting some time > >in the mid-seventies when the French sold Iraq their first nuclear reactors > >and enough uranium to build three or four bombs. It's not surprising that > >Chirac is so against *any* action being taken against Hussein, once you > >read > >a bit of the history. The article can be found here: > > > >http://www.stratfor.com/promo/Story.neo?site=usiraq&s=210275&promo=1 > > > >Some protestors surprisingly displaying common sense here: > >http://www.ochremedia.com/protest.php4 > > > >-f. > > >Yes, that sneaky France! Pretending to be our ally all this time, while >probably secretly waiting for the day they could betray us for the sake of >their evil masters in Baghdad! > >Wow, that's amazingly cynical, implying that the only reason France could >be against this war is because they are "with the enemy", so to speak. >Sure, France must be with the bad guys. That's it. Being, say, SANE, or NOT >RULED BY GREED, or NOT FOOLED BY LYING AMERICAN LEADERS couldn't possibly >have anything to do with it! Also, uh, we have a *bit* of history with >Hussein ourselves, of exactly the sort that this article casts aspersions >upon French leadership for having... not that that's important, though, >right? My country, right or wrong! America uber alles! > >I'm going to file this article under "hypocritical propaganda" and forget >about it. This is exactly the sort of effort at demonization of any and all >opposition that is historically so common from societies trying to >rationalize immoral courses of action. > >At 10:52 PM +0000 2/20/03, those funny voices I hear when no one else is >around called themselves "matt sewell" and whispered: > > Sometimes war is the only way to peace; sometimes the only way to help > >some of the very poorest people on Earth is to bomb their houses and kill > >their family - it's simple er, common sense... > >Yes, sometimes you must destroy a village to save it, as a very wise man >once said. > >Mike >-- >======== > >We need love, expression, and truth. We must not allow ourselves to believe >that we can fill the round hole of our spirit with the square peg of >objective rationale. > - Paul Eppinger > >At non effugies meos iambos > - Gaius Valerius Catallus ("...but you won't get away from my poems.") > >"Moderation in all things, except Wild Turkey." > - Evel Knievel - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Express yourself with cool emoticons. Get MSN Messenger today. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 08:19:33 -0500 From: "FS Thomas" Subject: Great White's Guitarist Among the Missing in RI Club Fire Great White's Guitarist Among the Missing Feb 21, 04:03 (West Warwick-AP) -- A guitarist of the band on stage when a deadly fire broke out at a West Warwick nightclub is among the missing. Great White's lead singer Jack Russell said band member Ty Longley hasn't been found. The fire, which killed at least 26, apparently started after the band's pyrotechnics ignited the ceiling at The Station nightclub. Russell said the band had permission to use the pyrotechnics. He said when the fire started, the place went black and he was pulled off the stage. A clearly shaken Russell said he was stunned and said his words couldn't express his grief over the tragedy. Great White is a Los Angeles heavy metal band that had its heyday in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Their hits include "Once Bitten, Twice Shy" and "Rock Me." They earned a Grammy nomination in 1990. F S Thomas ferris@ochremedia.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 08:46:03 -0500 (EST) From: "Jonathan Fetter" Subject: Re: worst covers (100% Tull) Never liked the covers for "Warchild" and "A" either. I do, however, highly esteem the covers for "Minstrel in the Gallery" and "Thick as a Brick." "J-Tulldotcom" just slipped right by me. What was Ian thinking? It looks like Tull has finally achieved their own "Smell the Glove," if you can call that an achievement. So is the music as bad as the concept? Jon > as far as Tull's covers go, "Too old to rock'n'roll" has to take the cake > for worst, surely? > > James ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 08:47:18 -0500 (EST) From: Christopher Gross Subject: Re: anti-war movement On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, Michael E. Kupietz, wearing a pointy hat wrote: > Wow, that's amazingly cynical, implying that the only reason France could > be against this war is because they are "with the enemy", so to speak. > Sure, France must be with the bad guys. That's it. Being, say, SANE, or NOT > RULED BY GREED, or NOT FOOLED BY LYING AMERICAN LEADERS couldn't possibly > have anything to do with it! Aaron and Matt have already responded to this, but I just want to add that this is *exactly* the kind of attitude I was bitching and whining about a week ago. America's leaders must be knowingly, cynically doing evil for their own gain; but French leaders? They can't possibly be motivated by self-interest! After all, they're not Americans, and they agree with Mike! Re: kill-filing Ferris -- You can do whatever you want, of course; but I don't see how Ferris merited such a reaction. On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: > As to war ending communism...uh, what planet are these protestors > from? Gorbachev ended the Soviet Union - peacefully - Actually, Gorbachev did everything he could to *preserve* the Soviet Union. It was Boris Yeltsin and the leaders of the other Soviet Republics who dissolved the USSR. You could say that Gorbachev *inadvertently* destroyed Communism and the USSR, by unsuccessfully trying to reform them. But then again, you could say that the anti-Gorbachev coup leaders, or for that matter Brezhnev, destroyed Communism by acting like Communists. (You could also say that Marx and Lenin destroyed Communism by making it such an unworkable system in the first place.) > and only people > who think Ronald Reagan should be sainted (i.e., the insane) think the > Cold War did it. Anyway, a cold war isn't a war proper. I beg to differ. Only Reaganites think that Ronnie gets the primary credit for destroying Communism; but I think most who have studied the question would agree that the entire Cold War effort, from Truman onwards, *helped* to destroy Communism. As for real, non-cold wars, I think the war in Afghanistan (I mean the 1979-1989 war) helped hammer a lot of nails in Communism's coffin. (Note that by Communism I mean Marxism-Leninism as practiced in the USSR and its followers, not communism the theoretical final stage of social development in Marxist philosophy.) > Above and beyond all that, just because war might have in the past > eliminated some evils (and who's to say that other ways might not have > done so more efficiently and less bloodily), that says nothing about > its likelihood of doing so in *this* situation. Here, finally, we get to the best response: whether or not war has worked in the past, that doesn't prove it will work in Iraq now. It only proves that "War bad" is not, by itself, much of an argument against attacking Iraq. - --Chris "V 1980-om godu budem zhit' pri komunizmu." --NS Khrushchev ______________________________________________________________________ Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog. chrisg@gwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 09:04:26 -0500 From: "FS Thomas" Subject: Re: worst covers (100% Tull) - ----- Original Message ----- Jonathan Fetter exclaimed: > Never liked the covers for "Warchild" and "A" either. I do, however, > highly esteem the covers for "Minstrel in the Gallery" and "Thick as a > Brick." "A" is such a classically wretched design! Tres, tres 80s (though only hitting the skids in 1980 proper!) I wish I could've found a scan of the inside artwork, but for the un-initiated, here's the cover : http://remus.rutgers.edu/JethroTull/Photos/a.jpg I would have to think, though, that all things considered, Warchild's at the top of the bottom of the list. An all-time worst? No; but definitely a low for Tull. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 09:06:44 -0500 From: Ken Weingold Subject: Re: that's what I love about democracy On Thu, Feb 20, 2003, Jill Brand wrote: > But remember what fearless butthead said - that's what he loves > about democracy. People can express their opinions, but he doesn't > have to pay attention to any of them because he stole the election. Sorry, Jill, but Butthead said such gems as, "Some people are dumb." - -Ken ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 08:11:52 -0600 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: anti-war movement Quoting Christopher Gross : > Actually, Gorbachev did everything he could to *preserve* the Soviet > Union. It was Boris Yeltsin and the leaders of the other Soviet > Republics > who dissolved the USSR. Technically true...but what I meant was that Gorbachev bears primary responsibility for creating the environment in which the USSR *could* devolve peacefully (more or less) into the collection of republics (of better and worse governance) that exist today. Yeltsin, on the other hand, proved himself a dangerous and demagogic (okay, I got the "a" right this time...but what about the suffix?) leader, unworthy of anyone's trust. > I beg to differ. Only Reaganites think that Ronnie gets the primary > credit for destroying Communism; but I think most who have studied the > question would agree that the entire Cold War effort, from Truman > onwards, > *helped* to destroy Communism. As for real, non-cold wars, I think the > war in Afghanistan (I mean the 1979-1989 war) helped hammer a lot of > nails > in Communism's coffin. Yeah, yeah, yeah: the issue's complex, and I'm sure the pressures put on the Soviets by the US contributed - but they were far more intense earlier, when the Soviets didn't give up or change, than they were at the time they did change. As for Afghanistan: yes, that war contributed by nearly bankrupting the USSR - but I think what the protestors meant was a more direct sort of "war ends communism": i.e., we fought them and defeated them. War's ended a whole lot of things. > Here, finally, we get to the best response: whether or not war has > worked > in the past, that doesn't prove it will work in Iraq now. It only > proves > that "War bad" is not, by itself, much of an argument against attacking > Iraq. Which is why our theoretical bickering and arguing about who killed whom...oops, accidental Monty Python reference. ..Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: When the only tool you have is an interociter, you tend to treat :: everything as if it were a fourth-order nanodimensional sub-quantum :: temporo-spatial anomaly. :: --Crow T. Maslow ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 09:16:01 -0500 (EST) From: "Jonathan Fetter" Subject: Re: worst covers (100% Tull) > "A" is such a classically wretched design! Tres, tres 80s (though only > hitting the skids in 1980 proper!) I wish I could've found a scan of the > inside artwork, but for the un-initiated, here's the cover : > http://remus.rutgers.edu/JethroTull/Photos/a.jpg Maybe somebody knows the answer to this, but what is the box of golf tees in front of Ian doing on an air-traffic controller's desk? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 08:41:58 -0600 From: steve Subject: Re: anti-war movement >> Actually, Gorbachev did everything he could to *preserve* the Soviet >> Union. It was Boris Yeltsin and the leaders of the other Soviet >> Republics who dissolved the USSR. On Friday, February 21, 2003, at 08:11 AM, Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: > Technically true...but what I meant was that Gorbachev bears primary > responsibility for creating the environment in which the USSR *could* > devolve peacefully (more or less) into the collection of republics (of > better and worse governance) that exist today. I like the argument that the Soviet economy had reached the end stage of it's development and had nowhere to go but down. It puts the effect of outside forces in better perspective. - - Steve __________ People have a stereotype about what animation is, and don't recognize the possibilities. Hayao Miyazaki's "Spirited Away" had the most remarkable command of narrative I've seen in a very, very long time. This is just the best-told movie story of the year, enormously inventive and satisfying and meticulous. To me, it completely revivifies the value of real narrative in a movie. - Scott Rudin, producer of "The Hours" ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V12 #62 *******************************