From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V12 #39 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Sunday, February 2 2003 Volume 12 : Number 039 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: year 2002 [Ken Ostrander ] Intolerance (the album not the attitude) ["Rex.Broome" ] Re: double taxation causes consternation [Christopher Gross ] red sky in the morning [grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan)] Re: double taxation causes consternation [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] grant me, grant me... pest-free anime... [Dolph Chaney ] Re: adaptation, anime ["matt sewell" ] RE: ps ["matt sewell" ] Reap? They lost the space shuttle! [rosso@videotron.ca] Re: Reap? They lost the space shuttle! [tanter@tarleton.edu] robyn solo gigs [dances with virgos ] Nil Fun [Jeff Dwarf ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 16:02:19 -0500 From: Ken Ostrander Subject: Re: year 2002 sheez! sorry about the lousy formatting. i cut and pasted this from a word file and it looked oh so spiffy when i sent it. in case anyone's confused, i had a quote for each album. sigh. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 13:28:57 -0800 From: "Rex.Broome" Subject: Intolerance (the album not the attitude) James: >>In fact, I'd say the GH album "Intolerance" is possibly one of the most >>consistently underrated albums I know. It's a good 'un, that's for sure. I forget that myself, as I sometimes confuse it with the first Nova Mob record (which was all kinds of inconsistent as I recall it). Did anyone besides me like "Good News for Modern Man"? I remember being pretty impressed with it, and several of the songs still come to mind, but I didn't end up listening to it as much as I thought I would. ___ Kay: >>Look at Nader. Wow, that's leaping from one feglist hotbutton to another! Moreover, I liked what you had to say very much and have nothing intelligent to add. Par for the course, I suppose. ____ Melissa: >>part of it might be that the whole "oh it's so cute and weird and japanese" >>coolness thing works less for someone who grew up in hawaii surrounded by >>sanrio crap. Interesting... the primal appeal of anime for me does rest in my childhood, but it's the opposite of "cuteness"... it was the hook of those early imports like "Battle of the Planets" and "Star Blazers" which were a little darker and more sophisticated than their American "action cartoon" counterparts. I'm far from an avid consumer of anime now, but the stuff that catches my fancy even now tends to be attractive for its moodiness and lyricism. Oh, well. I'm eagerly awaiting Spirited Away's arrival at the rental shop. - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 21:52:33 +0000 From: "Maurer Rose, Inverse Nome" Subject: Movies and Adventures for Literary Boys and Girls Ross, Ive never read the O'Brien sea-frothies, thou Ive always meant to (since I like sailing and like history, seems a natural.) I have a friend who loves them. I gather from him that they are boy's adventure books for literary boys, another reason why I'd probobly race thru the whole series once I started. He says the realtionship between the two main characters is fun and well developed and the historical detail is excellent. Didn't someone here quote from one once? Something about disturbing a sloth? It sounded pretty good. The movie also sounds like it will be firt-rate(well, I hope it will be.) Peter Weir directs and Russell Crowe acts, which seem promising markers for quality control. Im wondering if the movie will also feature the ship herself. I love tall ships. The Danish navy or a school had a tall ship they'd use for the trainning of cadets in the Carabean in the winter when I was a kid. She could often be seen, anchored in Charlotte Amielie harbour, and what a beauty she was against all the brilliant blue. I'd imagine myself upon her engaged in all sorts of adventures. Once somehow we were allowed to actually tour the ship and I was in heaven. - ---------------------------- To answer Melissa's literary question, my book piles at work and home (recently restocked) presently contain: A Jean Huston book on dogs. I should be ashamed to admit this but Im not. Haven't started Lawrence Sutin's bio of Crowley, which is scholarly and judisciously enough done for sections to be almost, but not quite tedious, which I like. I'm almost done. "The Plants that Shaped our Gardens" by David Stuart. Almost done. A nice overview with good illustratiions of when, from where, and how foreign plants were first introduced into England. The bio of Billy Conally by his wife. Haven't started. Like the cover. "In Ruins" by Christopher Woodward. Haven't started but looks intiguing. "The Kindness of Sisters: Annabella Milbanke and the Destruction of the Byrons" by David Crane. Havent started but looks well done. "ALexandria 4" ed. by David Fideler. Came out ages ago but I finially found a copy. Wish this series still continued, though some of the essays are better than others. Just finished. "Lectures on Shakespeare." I forget now who edits this, but its text is based on student's notes held in the Berg Collection at NY Public. It's voice certianly sounds like the esteemed lecturer, who was W H Auden(one of my prime intellectual crushes) so I think some of the students must have taken their notes in shorthand. Its wonderful; witty, insightful, eccentric, pragmatic, funny, poignent and worth the price of admission just for the Shakespearean bits Auden chooses to quote. I'm actually dipping into it slowly to make it last as long as possible. I'm about halfway thru. Hmmm, and thats it for now. Have a good weekend all. Kay _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 17:10:28 -0500 (EST) From: Christopher Gross Subject: Re: Movies and Adventures for Literary Boys and Girls On Fri, 31 Jan 2003, Maurer Rose, Inverse Nome wrote: > Ross, > > Ive never read the O'Brien sea-frothies, thou Ive always meant to (since I > like sailing and like history, seems a natural.) I have a friend who loves > them. I gather from him that they are boy's adventure books for literary > boys, another reason why I'd probobly race thru the whole series once I > started. He says the realtionship between the two main characters is fun and > well developed and the historical detail is excellent. Didn't someone here > quote from one once? Something about disturbing a sloth? It sounded pretty > good. "Jack, you have debauched my sloth." --Patrick O'Brian, _HMS Surprise_ I'd comment on whether or not the books are frothy, but first I'd have to know what "frothy" in this context means! For now I'll just say that the Aubrey/Maturin novels rank high among the best historical fiction I've ever read. Hell, they rank high among the best fiction of any kind that I've ever read. Great characters, superb historical authenticity, and delightful use of the language. I think they've been mentioned in several Feg-books threads too. If Fegs like 'em, how can you go wrong? > The movie also sounds like it will be firt-rate(well, I hope it will be.) > Peter Weir directs and Russell Crowe acts, which seem promising markers for > quality control. Im wondering if the movie will also feature the ship > herself. I love tall ships. Check out the trailer here: Alas, course neither Russell Crowe nor Paul Bettany bears the slightest physical resemblance to the characters they portray; but hopefully the acting will be good enough to make me forget this. Looking forward to it! - --Lef-tenant Chris ______________________________________________________________________ Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog. chrisg@gwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 17:05:21 -0500 From: Ken Ostrander Subject: double taxation causes consternation first off, a couple of shrubisms: http://fuckitall.com/bsh/ http://www.democracymeansyou.com/satire/explainified.htm me, then blatzman blatzman blatzman ><< it is not double taxation. just because the same money is being taxed >again doesn't count. it's the people that are being taxed. income is >income. >> > >What a point of view!!! thank you. >It's double taxation alright, and if my grandmother >gets more satisfaction knowing that she's going to pay for her >great-grandchildren's college rather than spending the money on herself, then >it's her right, and those kids shouldn't be made to pay a penny. your grandmother could avoid the taxation by paying for their school (you can pay well in advance) or by buying things for her loved ones, rather than hiding it away. i will say that there should be some latitude given to smaller inheritance; when it actually seems to work the opposite way. >If people want to will their belongings rather than spend them themselves, >it's their right, and it should be given without double-taxation. it's not double taxation!!!! this is the same argument that bush uses and it's simply not true. if you follow money around it gets taxed over and over. your grandmother gets taxed on her income, her heirs get taxed on theirs. are you trying to tell me that inheritance is not income? if so, i disagree. >That type of view just disgusts me to no end... what type of view? the view that people should be taxed on their income? if you want to get rid of taxes (an idea that has it's relative merits) you should consider joining the libertarian party. http://www.lp.org/ this year i saw my grandmother's will get disregarded because of squabbling amongst the siblings. this disgusts me. sometimes, these taxes can be avoided if people were more giving while they were alive. my grandmother did give everything away. she didn't leave much, except her house. jeme, then blatzman ><< I'm much more annoyed by the accumulation of huge, unearned (by the > recipient) hereditary fortunes. >> > >I'm not one of these people, but I wouldn't want to take their parents money >away from them so that the government can spend it the way they think it >should be spent. And why does this annoy you anyway? because rich people are born with an unfair advantage and...oh wait, you're talking to jeme. anyway, it's all the more reason for you to take an interest in what the government is doing with your taxes. i'd like to see taxpayers given the ability to directly determine where their tax dollars get spent. if they were able to choose what departments get, say, a third of their total tax dollars; it could revolutionize tax spending. more jeme: >Is it "double taxation" when you pay a sales tax since the money was taxed >when you were paid? i believe it is. just like the idea that we get taxed on our gross income before medicaid and social security are taken out. >Is it "double taxation" when your paycheck is taxed since the company that >pays you was ostensibly taxed on the revenue? i don't think so. but bush would have you believe that it is. >Is it "double taxation" when a commercial organization is taxed on revenue >since the people who paid for the goods or services were taxed at the >point of sale? certainly not. >And is it quintuple taxation when you buy something from the company that >employs you? ah, the mirror within the mirror. typically employees steal from their employers, don't they? probably to get back for all of those years forced to buy from the company store. ken "another day older and deeper in debt" the kenster ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 17:14:54 -0500 (EST) From: Christopher Gross Subject: Re: double taxation causes consternation On Fri, 31 Jan 2003, Ken Ostrander wrote: > jeme, then blatzman > ><< I'm much more annoyed by the accumulation of huge, unearned (by the > > recipient) hereditary fortunes. >> Hey! Don't insult Jeme by attributing my words to him! ;) Dropping the taxation thread by popular demand, Chris ______________________________________________________________________ Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog. chrisg@gwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 14:37:02 -0800 (PST) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: double taxation causes consternation On Fri, 31 Jan 2003, Ken Ostrander wrote: > jeme, then blatzman > ><< I'm much more annoyed by the accumulation of huge, unearned (by the > > recipient) hereditary fortunes. >> > > > >I'm not one of these people, but I wouldn't want to take their parents money > >away from them so that the government can spend it the way they think it > >should be spent. And why does this annoy you anyway? > > because rich people are born with an unfair advantage and...oh wait, > you're talking to jeme. Um, no. That's a misattribution. I absolutely did not write that line about being "much more annoyed by the accumulation...". I didn't and wouldn't write that. > more jeme: > >Is it "double taxation" when you pay a sales tax since the money was taxed > >when you were paid? > > i believe it is. Well, that actually was me. But I disagree. Double taxation should be reserved for taxes paid on a total that includes taxes. > just like the idea that we get taxed on our gross income before medicaid > and social security are taken out. Right. That's a good example. Another good example is state income tax that does not allow one to deduct federal tax paid. In those cases, the amount taxed includes an already paid tax. I don't think you'd make the same argument if merchants didn't simply include the sales tax in the shelf price and pay it without making you directly aware. In Oregon, we have no sales tax, but there are certainly taxes on some goods and services that are just not itemized on the bill. The town where I went to college, for example, being a huge tourist town as well as a college town put a small tax on meals eaten in restaurants. Most restaurants just absorbed the tax or modified their menu prices. No reason to share the gritty details with the patrons. > >Is it "double taxation" when your paycheck is taxed since the company that > >pays you was ostensibly taxed on the revenue? > > i don't think so. but bush would have you believe that it is. To me, this is no different than a retailer paying a sales tax. Imagine if manufacturers insisted that the tax to their revenue be listed separate from the purchase price or calculated at the register! > >Is it "double taxation" when a commercial organization is taxed on revenue > >since the people who paid for the goods or services were taxed at the > >point of sale? > > certainly not. These are all examples of the same thing. > >And is it quintuple taxation when you buy something from the company that > >employs you? > > ah, the mirror within the mirror. typically employees steal from their > employers, don't they? probably to get back for all of those years > forced to buy from the company store. Well, that's hard to do when you're an employee of a service organization or a massive conglomerate or something. I mean, I worked for years for a fiber optic carrier, but I never "stole" bandwidth. (OK, I gave my self accounts on the NNTP servers for use at home and made many free long distance calls from work, but that's about it.) However, I was a customer of my company's long distance service (at a reduced rate). The number of different taxes paid in that circle of transactions was surprising. But noe of them felt like "double taxation". They were distinct transactions and none of them were based on amounts already paid as tax. J. - -- _______________________________________________ Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 11:58:20 +1300 From: grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan) Subject: red sky in the morning >Jeez, that sounds aweful. Like a John Martin painting come to life. Wern't >there some bad fires last year as well? Is it a drought thats causing all >this? I hope theyre getting people out of the way, but even so, I can think >of few things worse than to have your home, or your enviroment, go up in >flames. thankfully for me, the fires are a looong way from here (and there's a sea in between which should stop them). But the situation in Australia is often bad at this time of year - they have a bushfire season the same way the great plains have a tornado season. This year it's been particularly bad, with about 400 homes destroyed and about three or four deaths, mainly around the Canberra area. It's rare for us in NZ to get so much of the smoke over here though - we are a couple of thousand km away. But when we get Nor'wester winds (one of our main weather patterns), and those winds are stronger than normal, the smoke gets pushed across the Tasman sea. An analogy would be that if there was a volcanic eruption in Mexico, and a strong souwester, you might get smoke from it in Florida and some of the Caribbean islands. Of course it could simply be Peter Jackson doing some additional filming of Mordor for the third LotR movie. James (today, the sky is clear. And it's HOT) James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand. =-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= .-=-.-=-.-=-.- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-. -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= You talk to me as if from a distance =-.-=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time -=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 17:00:57 -0600 (CST) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: double taxation causes consternation On Fri, 31 Jan 2003, Ken Ostrander wrote: > anyway, it's all the more reason for you to take an interest in what the > government is doing with your taxes. i'd like to see taxpayers given > the ability to directly determine where their tax dollars get spent. if > they were able to choose what departments get, say, a third of their > total tax dollars; it could revolutionize tax spending. Oooh, this is a very bad idea. I'll probably get pilloried for this, but...first, the administrative costs of working such a system, in which a plebiscite determines every last expenditure, would all but ensure that there's nothing left to spend anyway. Furthermore, I'm not sure that subjecting the course of a nation to the momentary whims of the populace ascertained by something like hte Nielsen ratings is going to do anything but produce a whirlwind of incoherency. A few other things: who's going to verify what people want? And: if you think things are corrupt now, and politicians and media spin issues up down and sideways, this would make it ten times worse. I think the idea of a *representative* democracy is a good one (in theory): we elect people to represent us, and they do the actual work. (Insert long rant about how US system isn't actually represtnative, electoral college blah blah, instant run-off voting blah-blah, public not corporate funding yadda yadda....) C'mon: how many people are actually going to bother to study what an effective use of revenue might be? Hey, since James isn't reading this: New Zealand really sucks! Yeah! Ha! There, I said it! - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::Solipsism is its own reward:: __Crow T. Robot__ ps: flags are dumb ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 17:28:55 -0500 (CDT) From: gSs Subject: Re: double taxation causes consternation On Fri, 31 Jan 2003, Ken Ostrander wrote: > it's not double taxation!!!! this is the same argument that bush > uses and it's simply not true. if you follow money around it gets > taxed over and over. any gain monetary or otherwise, should be taxed. it's difficult to keep up with the small things but double taxation could really only exist if i was taxed twice for the same declared specific gain. if i declare received income from a job and then pay someone for anything and that person declares that gain, why would it not be taxed? income and gain are synonyms, right? gSs ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 18:18:20 -0600 From: Dolph Chaney Subject: grant me, grant me... pest-free anime... At 03:28 PM 1/31/2003, Rex.Broome wrote: >Did anyone besides me like "Good News for Modern Man"? I remember being >pretty impressed with it, and several of the songs still come to mind, but I >didn't end up listening to it as much as I thought I would. I had the same reaction. I put it on, it's pleasant, I want to like it a lot more than I do, and then I forget I own it for months. melissa said: > Do you all have any anime suggestions for a feg? since it's more than likely that I will be at Otakon again i think it would be more fun if I had seen more anime before then. So far the > things that I have liked are jin-roh wolf brigade, hellsing and if you count it spirited away. i tried to watch lain and got kind of bored with it. part of it might be that the whole "oh it's so > cute and weird and japanese" coolness thing works less for someone who grew up in hawaii surrounded by sanrio crap. > any suggestions woudl be helpful. Well, I dug Lain m'self (it's why my cat's named Arisu)... I'd still say nothing tops Neon Genesis Evangelion for epic mindfuck. I also liked Escaflowne (the FIRST round of subtitles, thank you) and Trigun. dolph ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 23:19:02 -0600 From: steve Subject: Re: grant me, grant me... pest-free anime... On Friday, January 31, 2003, at 06:18 PM, Dolph Chaney wrote: > Well, I dug Lain m'self Idea and design guy Yoshitoshi Abe's new series - http://web.mit.edu/anime/www/Series/Haibane_renmei.html Fansubs can be found on eBay. The Apple/Lain nexus - http://www.cjas.org/~leng/apple-lain.htm - - Steve __________ I know that it's cynical, but I feel that civil liberties-for a lot of these people in Congress-are either an inconvenience or a campaign slogan. They care only about money and power. - Wil Wheaton ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 01:07:09 -0500 From: "Terrence Marks" Subject: RE: anime > Do you all have any anime suggestions for a feg? since it's more > than likely that I will be at Otakon again i think it would be > more fun if I had seen more anime before then. So far the things > that I have liked are jin-roh wolf brigade, hellsing and if you > count it spirited away. i tried to watch lain and got kind of > bored with it. part of it might be that the whole "oh it's so > cute and weird and japanese" coolness thing works less for > someone who grew up in hawaii surrounded by sanrio crap. > any suggestions woudl be helpful. Grouped by genre. Mind you I'm leaving out a decent number of genres that I'm just not into, like sports romance, or mecha, or what have you. I strongly recommend the following. Oh My Goddess [Ah! Megami-sama] Chobits (anime or manga) I'll Be an Angel [Tenshi Narumon] (anime) Pita-Ten (anime) One Pound Gospel (anime or manga) Inu Yasha (anime or manga) Mysterious Play [Fushigi Yuugi] (anime or manga) Black Jack (manga) Astro Boy (manga) Ranma 1/2 (manga or anime) Urusei Yatsura/Lum (manga or anime) Dr. Slump (manga) Kinnikuman (manga) Hunter x Hunter (anime or manga) Get Backers (anime) Rockman.EXE (anime) Hana Yori Dango (manga or anime) Mars (manga) Penguin Brothers (manga) Sushi Girl (manga) Here is Greenwood [Koko wa Greenwood] (anime) All Purpose Cultural Cat Girl Nuku Nuku (anime) Love Hina (manga, preferably) Salad Days (manga) And in the list of stuff I haven't seen but has been recommended to me: Neon Genesis Evangelion, FLCL [aka Furi Kuri aka Foolly Coolly], Trigun, Ruroni Kenshin, Kimagure Orange Road, Marmalade Boy Anything by Studio Ghibli If you want manga online... http://pinoyotaku.com/salad_days/downloads.html http://mangaproject.cjb.net/ http://certhy.mircx.com/ http://www.toriyamaworld.com/manga.html Terrence Marks http://nice.purrsia.com http://www.unlikeminerva.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 09:07:20 +0000 From: "matt sewell" Subject: Re: adaptation, anime I've just finished The Third Policeman by Flann O'Brien - it's a fantastic book that blew my mind and taught me all about omnium and how, according to the Atomic Theory, bicycles and humans swap particles (Stewart R, on this basis, must be at least 45% bicycle). I can't really recommend it enough... Cheers Matt >From: "melissa" >btw anyone read anything good lately? i think i've exhausted all of the terry pratchet books. > >melissa - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Chat with friends online - download MSN Messenger today. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 10:06:40 +0000 From: "matt sewell" Subject: RE: ps I thought this is what America's about these days - hence the extra words in the pledge - "one nation under guard"... Ok, Ok, I'm going... Cheers Matt >From: Capuchin > >Third, security can only be guaranteed by a nanny or shepard the like that >ensures security by restricting freedom and controlling the environment. >We all know what Benjamin Franklin said about this. I think he hit the >nail on the head. > >Last, I think the Golden Rule applies very well here. If you want to feel >relatively sure that you're not going to be the victim of a bombing or >your air's not going to be unbreathably polluted or you and your loved >ones are not going to be hauled off by the Secret Police, you must FIRST >stop supporting bombing, polluting, and the Secret Police. > >Security is not bought or imposed, it comes about only by consensus. >J. >-- >_______________________________________________ > >Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Send instant messages for free with MSN Messenger. Click here to download it now! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 09:42:52 -0500 From: rosso@videotron.ca Subject: Reap? They lost the space shuttle! If you're not watching the news, tune in now. They lost the shuttle over Texas! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 10:08:03 -0600 (CST) From: tanter@tarleton.edu Subject: Re: Reap? They lost the space shuttle! We heard it. Really, really, really sad. We were lying in bed and at just about 8am, it sounded like something fell off the roof and shook the windows. I thought it was probably a tree limb and didn't think about it again until we turned on the tv at 8:30. It's horrible. I feel for the families--the one good thing maybe is that the astronauts must have died instantly so they wouldn't have sufferred too long or too much. I can't imagine what they're families must be going through. Marcy On Sat, 1 Feb 2003 rosso@videotron.ca wrote: > If you're not watching the news, tune in now. They lost the shuttle > over Texas! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 13:05:53 -0500 From: dances with virgos Subject: robyn solo gigs robynhitchcock.com is listing two new solo gigs: february 19 - rhythm room, phoenix, az february 23 - cafe largo, w. hollywood, ca woj ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 07:36:17 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Dwarf Subject: Nil Fun My VCR screwed up so I can't say what he played or how good he was, but Neil Finn will be on the Comedy Central re-runs of Late Night with Conan O'Brien Monday evening at 7pm (and Tuesday afternoon at 1pm). ===== "Propaganda is that branch of the art of lying which consists in very nearly deceiving your friends without quite deceiving your enemies." -- F.M. Cornford "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt . 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