From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V11 #413 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Friday, December 6 2002 Volume 11 : Number 413 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Bridgestowe [Michael R Godwin ] c'mon Eb - out with it! [John Barrington Jones ] Anal/Lips/CDNow (please forgive unfortunate collision of subjects ) ["Rex] RE: FLips and UK TV [hamish_simpson@agilent.com] Re: c'mon Eb - out with it! [Eb ] RE: FLips and UK TV [Michael R Godwin ] Re: Flaming Lips [Eb ] Re: Flaming Lips [Caroline Smith ] Re: Flaming Lips [Eb ] Re: Flaming Lips [Miles Goosens ] Re: Flaming Lips [Caroline Smith ] it was the wrong night of Hanukkah [Jill Brand ] Re: it was the wrong night of Hanukkah ["Maximilian Lang" ] Re: anal bum cover [Aaron Mandel ] REAP ["Maximilian Lang" ] reap ["Stewart C. Russell" ] Glass Flesh, a Robyn Hitchcock Tribute (slight return) [bayard ] Don't you wish you lived in Hollywood? [Eb ] Re: flame on ["Michael E. Kupietz, wearing a pointy hat" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:51:09 +0000 (GMT) From: Michael R Godwin Subject: Re: Bridgestowe On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, Brian Hoare wrote: > "psychedelic version of Soft Cell" isn't enough to scare me off, > Godders but the Golden Shot image is still troubling me. Brian, Charlotte: see you at the Fleece on 26th Jan! Anyone else up for this one? Matt, Tony, Jim, Jonathan, this is the voice of the Bristolians - - we know you can hear us! - - Mike Godwin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 07:32:05 -0800 (PST) From: John Barrington Jones Subject: c'mon Eb - out with it! Send us that Best of 2002 list! I am working on mine. Its shaping up like this: Wilco, Elvis Costello, Sleater-Kinney, Peter Mulvey, Soft Boys, Beck, and that's it so far. And that is not in any particular order. I'd put Steve Earle in there if there weren't a few songs in there that were way too cheezy for me. The Eels release was disappointing. I liked a few songs, but that was it. =jbj= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:03:02 -0800 From: "Rex.Broome" Subject: Anal/Lips/CDNow (please forgive unfortunate collision of subjects ) Drew: >> I am anal enough to point out that this is a fairly anal observation you make here >>(pedants are anal, with no exceptions that I can think of). Fair enough. Perhaps our shared anality is why I enjoy your observations so much even when our musical tastes are so wildly divergent? (Actually, they're not... most of our shades of disagreement are fairly picky-yooney... anal, if you will.) Eb: >>I didn't hear the new Flaming Lips album until quite recently, and >>when I finally did, I was disappointed. The ambience just doesn't >>feel like a "band" anymore. Well, I was a little disappointed as well. It felt initally like an echo of "Soft Bulletin" without expanding too much on that model (although admittedly "expanding" on such an expansive sound is a questionable endeavor). Just seemed a little undercooked, but still enjoyable. I think you may underestimate the contributions of the other members, though... just because the three guys aren't playing in a "band" format (gtr/bass/drums) doesn't mean it's not collaborative. I'm basing that not so much on the records as the radio sessions I've heard over the years, where the guys are loose, play around with the arrangements radically, and turn on a dime into some pretty impromptu stuff. I like the Lips a lot. Kinda surprised at how they've had a kind of late-career elevation to godhead status. Seems like I was recommending "Soft Bulletin" to a lot of uninterested people that year, only to discover it near the top of just about everyone's year-end top ten. __________ And okay, the REAL question about CDNow: WHERE THE HELL IS MY WISH LIST?!?!?! You know, the one that I just told everyone about who wants Christmas gift suggestions for me? The one that allows people to see records that I actually want and actually don't have? Merry Christmas!!! Bastards. - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:02:10 -0700 From: hamish_simpson@agilent.com Subject: RE: FLips and UK TV MRG (no MSG) sed > They appeared on Jools Holland last(?) season and came over as a > psychedelic version of Soft Cell, two blokes with a big spinning stripy > wheel behind them which brought back disturbing memories of The Golden > Shot. Yeah, a few years back. They did "Race for the Prize" and something else I don't remember. They weren't very good on that, but I've seen a lot of acts that sound bad on "Later". I think it's a TV studio mix thing. OTHO, "Soft Bulletin" replaced the Damneds "Black Album" as my all time favourite a few years ago. It is quite frankly astounding. No other album has caused me such a strong emotional reaction. I was already a Lips fan but the previous albums I'd heard didn't prepare me. "Yoshimi" is taking a while! Unfortunately they left off "Funeral In My Head" from the final version which IMHO was one of the best tracks on the early mix version. And what's with the implied dissing of the Golden Shot. Bernie the Bolt would be most disappointed. Speaking of old UK TV shows, I was thinking of Mrs Slocombe's pussy last night. I used to watch this when it was first on in the UK and I don't remember whether "pussy" had the connotation at the time. Anyone? I also remember an episode of Dad's Army where Jones kept saying "fakir" and pronouncing it in a rather suspect way. Ah, innocent times. Dolph sed > * When Kay asked why nobody drums like Moon and Bonham anymore, I wanted to > scream "FLAMING LIPS!!" Steven Drozd is a walloper extraordinaire, in > addition to being a great guitarist and keyboardist. Oh yeah!!!! That overdriven sound on "Race For The Prize" version 1 is excellent. > My favorite favorite of theirs is CLOUDS TASTE METALLIC. Another good album. Also gives a few clues about direction, e.g. "Bad Days", "Evil Will Prevail". ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:48:20 -0800 From: Eb Subject: Re: c'mon Eb - out with it! >Dean Wormer: >I am working on mine. Its shaping up like this: > >Wilco, Elvis Costello, Sleater-Kinney, Peter Mulvey, Soft Boys, Beck, and >that's it so far. Huh...who's Peter Mulvey? Never heard of him. Off to CDNow, er, Amazon.... >Send us that Best of 2002 list! Um, all right. I wasn't sure whether that I'd post it at all, because last year, everyone just ignored/bitched/moaned about the dreaded spate of "top-10 talk." And so few others had lists of their own. That's about the point where I decided to take a long break from posting. But, this is how my list now stands. 1. Tom Waits - Alice 2. Ed Harcourt - Here Be Monsters 3. Beck - Sea Change 4. Cornelius - Point 5. Paul Westerberg - Stereo 6. Tom Waits - Blood Money 7. Super Furry Animals - Rings Around the World 8. Interpol - Turn on the Bright Lights 9. Sonic Youth - Murray Street 10. Hot Hot Heat - Make Up the Breakdown Purty good, but not quite in the money: The Soft Boys (who just may be in the unfortunate close-but-no-cigar #11 position, if it's not QOTSA), Queens of the Stone Age, Elvis Costello, Badly Drawn Boy (*both* albums), Enon, Neil Young, Jurassic 5, the Flaming Lips My top four were cut-and-dried, from the start. All my fretting was in the #5-#15 range. I'm still especially cringing that I haven't heard the Guided by Voices, Sleater-Kinney and Of Montreal discs -- I think it's fully likely that they could rank somewhere among the above. And as ever, I always wonder what new little bands have flown under my radar. Heck, just yesterday, I found out that Thin White Rope's Guy Kyser released a new album this year, leading a band called the Mummydogs -- how did *that* info elude me?? Major disappointments: Peter Gabriel (wince), Sigur Ros, the Breeders, Tanya Donelly, Marianne Faithfull, Lambchop, "I am Sam" soundtrack. Who would have predicted that Gabriel, Costello and Young could all release albums during a year, yet not rank on an Eb10? Notable discoveries: Harcourt/Interpol/HHHeat, Steven Jesse Bernstein (catalog), Mull Historical Society. Way too short a list, this year. Belle & Sebastian and the Kostars almost count in this category, but really, that's more a case of finally finding their discs for cheap. And then there's Eyes Adrift, but that's just a spinoff. And yes, I really hate that both the Harcourt and Super Furries discs came out in 2001 overseas. But I just couldn't avoid including them on my list. I guess my rationalizations are: 1) Harcourt got *zero* votes in last year's Pazz & Jop poll, so the album obviously didn't get around very far. 2) The US release of the Furries album has a new bonus CD of material. UKers are welcome to scorn me anyway, however. Eb np: http://home.earthlink.net/~elbroome/np.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 18:51:41 +0000 (GMT) From: Michael R Godwin Subject: RE: FLips and UK TV On Thu, 5 Dec 2002 hamish_simpson@agilent.com wrote: > Speaking of old UK TV shows, I was thinking of Mrs Slocombe's pussy last > night. I used to watch this when it was first on in the UK and I don't > remember whether "pussy" had the connotation at the time. Don't remember that one. The nearest I can offer is Mr Slater's parrot: "Hallo" "Hallo" "Hallo" "Hallo" ect ect - - MRG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:06:41 -0800 From: Eb Subject: Re: Flaming Lips >Kinda surprised at how >they've had a kind of late-career elevation to godhead status. Yes...it's remarkable and very, very unusual that a band could hit a career peak, 12-15 years into their catalog. Quite a notable achievement. They even weathered the great late-'90s plague of major-label droppings, besides. Who would have predicted this, back when they were signed to Pink Dust? Eb, who still has the first EP and Hear It Is on promo colored vinyl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:17:41 -0500 From: Caroline Smith Subject: Re: Flaming Lips >> Kinda surprised at how >> they've had a kind of late-career elevation to godhead status. > > Yes...it's remarkable and very, very unusual that a band could hit a > career peak, 12-15 years into their catalog. Quite a notable > achievement. They even weathered the great late-'90s plague of > major-label droppings, besides. Who would have predicted this, back > when they were signed to Pink Dust? > Of course, I can't help but wonder if they'd still be under the radar if not for the Beck tour... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:20:49 -0800 From: Eb Subject: Re: Flaming Lips >>>Kinda surprised at how >>>they've had a kind of late-career elevation to godhead status. >> >>Yes...it's remarkable and very, very unusual that a band could hit >>a career peak, 12-15 years into their catalog. Quite a notable >>achievement. They even weathered the great late-'90s plague of >>major-label droppings, besides. Who would have predicted this, back >>when they were signed to Pink Dust? >> > >Of course, I can't help but wonder if they'd still be under the >radar if not for the Beck tour... They entered the radar with "She Don't Use Jelly," several years earlier. Eb ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 13:32:07 -0600 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: Flaming Lips At 11:20 AM 12/5/2002 -0800, Eb wrote: >>>>Kinda surprised at how >>>>they've had a kind of late-career elevation to godhead status. >>> >>>Yes...it's remarkable and very, very unusual that a band could hit >>>a career peak, 12-15 years into their catalog. Quite a notable >>>achievement. They even weathered the great late-'90s plague of >>>major-label droppings, besides. Who would have predicted this, back >>>when they were signed to Pink Dust? >>> >> >>Of course, I can't help but wonder if they'd still be under the >>radar if not for the Beck tour... > >They entered the radar with "She Don't Use Jelly," several years earlier. I think it was a hit more than once -- it seems like I remember it getting lots of college airplay when it was first out, but then it had a resurgence a few years later and got a lot more mainstream attention then. Plus, as Rex just said, THE SOFT BULLETIN got them about as much attention from magazines and critics as anyone could get. So it's hardly like Beck has plucked them out of obscurity. later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:29:44 -0500 From: Caroline Smith Subject: Re: Flaming Lips On Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 02:20 PM, Eb wrote: >>>> Kinda surprised at how >>>> they've had a kind of late-career elevation to godhead status. >>> >>> Yes...it's remarkable and very, very unusual that a band could hit a >>> career peak, 12-15 years into their catalog. Quite a notable >>> achievement. They even weathered the great late-'90s plague of >>> major-label droppings, besides. Who would have predicted this, back >>> when they were signed to Pink Dust? >>> >> >> Of course, I can't help but wonder if they'd still be under the radar >> if not for the Beck tour... > > They entered the radar with "She Don't Use Jelly," several years > earlier. > > Eb > > Yeah, yeah, they even appeared on Beverly Hills 90210, right? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 16:35:51 -0500 (EST) From: Jill Brand Subject: it was the wrong night of Hanukkah Ken and Max, I'm sorry to have delivered the Ray news with no preparation. That's the problem with Hanukkah. It's just too long and can hold too many surprises. I mean, one night you get a stupid bag of 'geld' which is supposed to be chocolate but tastes like wax and then another you get the special Spongebob version of Uno. If there were only one night, then you would get all the goodies at once (Ray and the French jazz guys and YLT and bad chocolate and the Spongebob Uno). But then again, you wouldn't get to eat lots of latkes and gain ten pounds. Jill, off to buy more matzo meal ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 16:38:42 -0500 From: "Maximilian Lang" Subject: Re: it was the wrong night of Hanukkah >From: Jill Brand >Jill, off to buy more matzo meal mmmmmmmmmm, matzo. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 14:22:50 -0800 From: "Jason R. Thornton" Subject: interpolio, the flaming lips, and some ON TOPIC CRAP! Yay, Interpol. Mark that down as one of my favorite albums of the year as well, along with "Sea Change." Speaking of which, I saw Beck and the Flaming Lips last night. They were recruiting girls outside the venue before the show to dance around in those animal costumes. Beck even did a solo acoustic version of the Lips' "Do You Realize?" The Flaming Lips had played it, of course, during their opening slot. Anyway, here's a message that was posted to the Chapman Stick mailing list yesterday: >Subject: Re: (TEFLON) - Peter Gabriel > > > >Robyn Hitchcock at the Ark here in Ann Arbor a few years ago and it was = >not extortionist-expensive! And a great show.< > > >My band opened up for Robyn on his tour supporting that album with = >"Balloon Man" on it, I can't think of the name for some reason. Too = >many years ago I guess. Great album though. Anyway, my conversation = >with him went like this: > > >Me: "Hello, it's an honor to play with you Mr, Hitchcock." > > >Robyn: "Where am I." > > >Me: "You are in Utah, Salt Lake City, at the Bar and Grill" > > >Robyn: "Ah yes, that would explain the mountains." > > >Me: "Yeah, we have mountains." > > >Robyn: "Why am I here?" > > >Me: "Uh, you are playing here, you are just about to hit the stage." > > >Robyn: "Ah yes, that would explain the guitar I have on." > > >Me: "Are you feeling o.k.?" > > >Robyn: "Yes, brilliant, brilliant. Right, which way is the stage?" - --Jason "Only the few know the sweetness of the twisted apples." - Sherwood Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 22:39:01 +0000 From: "Charlotte Tupman" Subject: Would I like...The Soft Boys? I see the Bristol date (26th Jan) has been put up on www.thesoftboys.com. There's a Brighton date too, advertised on www.wayahead.com for the 28th Jan. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 15:01:46 -0800 (PST) From: drew Subject: fuzzy warbles - thanks Thanks to those of you who responded regarding Fuzzy Warbles. I'm taking a chance and ordering both from my favorite local independent record store (Mod Lang in Berkeley). I should have them in a day or two and I'll post my reactions to the list. - -- drew at stormgreen dot com http://www.stormgreen.com/~drew/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 18:13:08 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: anal bum cover On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, Rex.Broome wrote: > Anyway, Interpol... does anyone else hear the breathtaking originality > on that record, or does the lack thereof not matter terribly? Like I > said, I enjoy the album a good deal; I just dunno if I respect it as > much as a lot of people do. I don't even know how much I enjoyed it after the first few listens. Some of the songs are good, and they're definitely reminiscent more of a period in time than any particular band, but the failings of the guy's voice just got to me. As accused-of-being-Joy-Division bands go, I prefer the Xiu Xiu album. It's histrionic, pretentious and noisy, but I guess they've also got my number... I start every song thinking "well, this is a nice combination of sounds" and then it gets more and more emotionally bleak until -- wow! A melody! I assume that if I had a little less patience with them I'd turn it off in disgust, and if I had *more* patience I wouldn't feel like they were taking me right to the edge and back, which is part of what I like. http://www.5rc.com/bands/xiuxiu has an mp3 of one song at the end if this has made anyone curious. Don't take my comment up there to mean Xiu Xiu sound like Interpol; I've just heard both of them compared to Joy Division a lot. Probably for different reasons. Also, big thumbs up for Hot Hot Heat. a ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 19:35:08 -0500 From: "Maximilian Lang" Subject: REAP Roone Arledge _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 22:51:54 -0500 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: reap Ivan Illich ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 20:53:32 -0800 (PST) From: bayard Subject: Glass Flesh, a Robyn Hitchcock Tribute (slight return) Hello all, happy holidays, greetings from the snowy east of west... This is just to let you know that GLASS FLESH, the robyn hitchcock tribute album, is on super special discount for a limited time (though not really in time for Hanukkah... sorry about that) ...both discs, volumes 1 and 2, are priced the lowest they've ever been... just $12.50 each, down from $15.00; so if you've been waiting for a price break, here you are! And yes that does include shipping; and we DO take paypal (www.x.com) for those of you who prefer to pay by credit card. Overseas shipping is slightly extra, but we offer volume discount if you purchase three or more discs (either volume, mix or match.) You can learn more and hear MP3 samples at http://glasshotel.net/glassflesh - and I intend to put up the Virgineer's cover of "Surgery" in its entirety, for your holiday enjoyousment. Any questions, just give me a holla. I'm barely on the list these days, I mean I don't have time to read it, but I'm still subscribed, goldurnit! Oh, if you want to get opinions on _Glass Flesh_, a bunch of people here have it, (some of them are even on it), and would be glad to tell you about it, I think Drew and Nick have volunteered, they both wrote reviews of it too. A few famous people join our fellow fegs on the discs - Vic Chesnutt is on Volume 1, Elephant 6 personage "Marshmallow Coast" closes out the second release, and Bryan from Elf Power is hiding on both albums. Sorry to hear cdnow got assimilated. For looking up bands, songs and records though, allmusic.com is probably better - it does not limit your search to what is in print. So we can still use that. joie heureuse heureuse de joie! =b -- http://glasshotel.net "If you ever get close to a Human... be ready to get confused" - bjork ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 22:56:43 -0600 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: analingus now Quoting "Rex.Broome" : > WHERE THE HELL IS MY WISH LIST?!?!?! > > You know, the one that I just told everyone about who wants Christmas gift > suggestions for me? The one that allows people to see records that I > actually want and actually don't have? > > Merry Christmas!!! Bastards. Some truly intelligent customer relations there... If you're lucky and happened to look at your wish list within the last week or so, and you haven't cleaned out your browser history or cache, a copy just might be sitting around on your hard drive. I found mine that way - looked for when I'd last visited CDNow (it was still online Monday, I think) and found a cache entry at the corresponding time...voila, there it was. ..Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: Some days, you just can't get rid of a bomb :: --Batman ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 21:34:15 -0800 From: Eb Subject: Don't you wish you lived in Hollywood? January 3rd, at the Knitting Factory: Whole Lotta Rosies, Cheap Chick, Threeway $10 All Girls. All Covers. All Night. All Right. Whole Lotta Rosies are L.A.'s all-girl AC/DC tribute band, and Threeway are your very necessary Rush cover band. Cheap Chick are four foxy women slavishly devoted to 70s-era Cheap Trick who are fronted by Pamita from the Neptunas and Melanie from the Excessories. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 22:36:31 -0800 From: "Michael E. Kupietz, wearing a pointy hat" Subject: Re: flame on At 4:56 PM -0800 12/4/02, those funny voices I hear when no one else is around called themselves drew and whispered: >> From: "Michael E. Kupietz, wearing a pointy hat" >> >> - - a few years ago they released an album on 4 CDs which had to be >>played >> simultaneously. > >_Zaireeka_. It's cooler than it sounds (see, to me, it >sounded amazingly dorky). The easiest way to play it is >to rip it to mp3 and run four instances of your mp3 player. ...or, to be friends with a DJ with four CD decks and a two mixing boards (for quad sound, y'know.) The interesting thing is that since no two CD players play at the same speed(*) the songs slowly drift out of phase. That's why every track has a "sync" sequence before it... because players drift so much that it's actually necessary to re-sync before each song, they're off by a beat or more. The question in my mind (and the reason I'm still posting this even though I've seen since I wrote it that somebody already said the above) is whether the resultant "phase shift growing into total discord" was intended to be a part of the music**, or simply a technical limitation that couldn't be as easily overcome a handful of years ago as it can now. I wonder if you with your simultaneous MP3s or I with my 4 CD players heard the version closer to the original artistic intent. Has Wayne ever talked about this? (*Contrarians and unfamiliar audiophiles can do a web search on the words "CD jitter" for a fascinating evening's reading about timing problems inherent in CD playback.) (** I freakin' love it when an artist is thinking along those lines - like Jimi having you getting up and changing the record be part of the music, between sides 3 and 4 of Electric Ladyland. This is why I've always found the concept of Ladyland on CD to be extremely disrespectful. They could have at least put it on 2 disks, with the break in the right place.) Mike - -- ======== We need love, expression, and truth. We must not allow ourselves to believe that we can fill the round hole of our spirit with the square peg of objective rationale. - Paul Eppinger At non effugies meos iambos - Gaius Valerius Catallus ("...but you won't get away from my poems.") "Moderation in all things, except Wild Turkey." - Evel Knievel ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 22:43:46 -0800 From: "Michael E. Kupietz, wearing a pointy hat" Subject: Re: Don't you wish you lived in Hollywood? At 9:34 PM -0800 12/5/02, those funny voices I hear when no one else is around called themselves Eb and whispered: >Whole Lotta Rosies are L.A.'s all-girl AC/DC tribute band, Geez, how many of these are there? In SF we've got "AC/DShe" and IIRC there's also "Hell's Belles". Mike - -- ======== We need love, expression, and truth. We must not allow ourselves to believe that we can fill the round hole of our spirit with the square peg of objective rationale. - Paul Eppinger At non effugies meos iambos - Gaius Valerius Catallus ("...but you won't get away from my poems.") "Moderation in all things, except Wild Turkey." - Evel Knievel ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 13:59:55 +0000 (GMT) From: Michael R Godwin Subject: Re: reap On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > Ivan Illich I hadn't realised we were allowed social theorists on here. Can I counter with economists' favourite philosopher John Rawls (either 81 or 82 depending on whom you believe): http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=&targetRule=10&xml=%2Fnews%2F2002%2F11%2F27%2Fdb2701.xml> - - MRG PS There's something about Illich that I never quite cared for. Can't remember what it was now, but probably something to do with the religious mysticism. ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V11 #413 ********************************