From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V11 #410 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Wednesday, December 4 2002 Volume 11 : Number 410 Today's Subjects: ----------------- too much typing about too many subjects [grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dig] Anal Hacksawing ["Maurer Rose, Inverse Nome" ] Re: Anal Hacksawing ["Stewart C. Russell" ] Re: too much typing about too many subjects [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: Opening the mouth ["Stewart C. Russell" ] Re: Opening the mouth [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: fuzzy warbles? [Aaron Mandel ] You can, in fact, get quite a lot of "Satisfaction" ["Rex.Broome" ] Re: too much typing about too many subjects [Eb ] RE: too much typing about too many subjects ["Jason Brown (Echo Services ] Re: too much typing about too many subjects ["Michael E. Kupietz, wearing] Re: too much typing about too many subjects ["Michael E. Kupietz, wearing] that's-a what i say [drew ] 2002 tour photos [brian@lazerlove5.com] The Last-but-one Waltz ["Stewart C. Russell" ] Re: The Last-but-one Waltz [Tom Clark ] Hey Max, did you go to this one? [Jill Brand ] Re: Hey Max, did you go to this one? ["Maximilian Lang" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 23:34:09 +1300 From: grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan) Subject: too much typing about too many subjects >> There's something to this, but in certain strains of rock-- many of my >> favorite fields of study, like Dylan, Neil Young, or in many cases Robyn-- >> while it sure as hell isn't sheet music, the song isn't even the recording. >> It's just the song, floating in a cloud of ether near but not precisely *in* >> the writer's head, and it gets interfered with by electical disturbances >> within that cloud, so that the next time the singer pulls it out of that >> cloud all kinds of things might have happenedto it in the interrim. I doubt >> Dylan has spent much time at all with his own "classic" recordings. Those >> recordings are just how the tune sounded that night. > >That's a very good point - and one quite relevant to what makes a cover >version >work (or not). It's that invisible skeleton of a song that actually is >covered: >the lyrics (or most of them!), something in the way of melody and chord >structure >(structure is different from literal melody notes or chord voicings), but much >else is open to change. But all of this is just my bloviating - wouldn't >want to >be "pedantic," now. a friend of mine once talked about three types of rock song (as far as covers are concerned): 1) uncoverable; 2) coverable; 3) template songs. Saome songs just cannot be covered successfully - either because they are so strange that it is physically impossible (if you tried covering "Revolution no. 9", you'd end up with a different piece) or because they are so intrinsically linked with one singer. In the latter case, the songs are feasibly coverable, but they shouldn't be covered. Most songs, however, can be covered adequately or even successfully in a variety of different ways, either staying close to the original or radically altering them to suit the coverers own whims. The last group of songs - the template songs - are rare and beautiful beasts. These songs are a framework upon which any musician can hang whatever threads he or she wishes. They somehow transcend normal coverability and can be dressed up in any way the musician wants. A rather pointless analogy (I love doing these) is to cars. A model T Ford as Ford himself said, can be any colour as long as it is black. They just look wrong in other colours. Most cars, though, can be a variety of different colours. You could paint a chevy green or brown or red or blue. But a Mini, a VW beetle, or a Bambina? They're such cult cars that you could paint them bubblegum pink, candystripe, or decorated with murals and they'd still look OK. Your standard chevy wouldn't work that way. That's the reason that you could cover "Satisfaction" and - as long as you did it roughly like the Stones - it would sound pretty reasonable. It's also why Devo's and the Residents' versions sound so odd (and the Residents' version of the BeeGees song "Tragedy", too, for that matter). "Satisfaction" isn't a template song in the same way that, say, "Louie Louie" is. Or "Wimoweh". Or "Wild thing". Template songs are few and far between, but they are perhaps memorable because they are so simple and yet so adaptable. >>The kids' movie I saw last night was The Witches, directed >>by Nicholas Roeg, starring Anjelica Huston on crack and >>featuring Rowan Atkinson and Jane Horrocks in cute supporting >>roles. heh. not sure why this reminds me, but I had a weird conversation the other day with someone who managed to mix up Spike Lee and Mike Leigh. It led to a great idea for a movie they should work on together, starring Samuel L Jackson and Angela Bassett as a happy couple living in a middle-class London suburb, and the problems they have when a couple (played by Timothy Spall and Brenda Bleddyn) move next door and open up a crack house. I suppose you had to be there. >I've been thinking a lot about this as well. Our daughter is almost a year >old and I find myself having this fantasy of her growing up on some sort of >hippie ranch with horses, overlooking the Pacific. Then again I'd like her >to be in an intellectual environment like a college town. um... so what's the problem? Sounds like Otago Peninsula to me - very alternative lifestyle, and 25 minutes from university. >If grandpa is still alive, point out to him that one of the most powerfully >trance-inducing bits in western music is the beginning of the slow movement >in Beethoven's 7th(the one that sounds like immense waves breaking on a >rocky coast on a gray day.) Works on me every time. Rock n Rollers are >amateurs compared to this. add "Mars" from the Planets Suite by Gustav Holst to that. And it's in 5/4! :)) >> Yeah. I love Jodie Foster. i wish there was some politician I could kill, >> or something, to make her go out with me. join the queue! >SYDNEY, Australia (AP) - Peter Garrett (news), the energetic lead singer of >Australian rock band Midnight Oil, has quit the band after 25 years. rumours are he's going to have another attempt at running for the Australian senate. He stood about ten years ago, and as you all (should) know, he's long had strong political views. >It >is very similar to the bridge riff in "Badge" (on which Harrison appears >as L'Angelo Misterioso) erm... that would be the badge riff (unless I've misread your handwriting... ;) James James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand. =-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= .-=-.-=-.-=-.- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-. -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= You talk to me as if from a distance =-.-=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time -=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 14:58:52 +0000 From: "Maurer Rose, Inverse Nome" Subject: Anal Hacksawing Cosmetic Alteration: Isnt it the rule of thumb that most people who make their living in front of the camera start having nips, tucks, insertions and get-out-the-hacksaw early and often? I take it as a given. - ------------ Eb: I never said it was "picayune," though I may have implied it. ;P Right--you used "anal." ;-P I don't feel I'm being guided in how to listen. When I listen I don't listen with that analytic part of myself. But I like the fact that now, if I want to analyse something, I have a new tool with which to do it. And I love new tools, so thank you and all for contributing. - --------------- Jill: >does anyone else feel that Goblet of Fire was screaming out for some >better editing? This is my beef with many authors after they've achieved a fair amount of success. I liked it alot but tighter editing would have helped it. I hope Rowllings take her time with the rest of the series. If she does, if she allows herself to regenerate abit, it will become a classic series. She is unbelieviably inventive but Im sure each book takes alot out of her. Plus, she is a mom, which also takes alot out of you. I hate it when authors are viewed as commercial machines expected to just punch out product -- because product is then all too often what you get. Maybe she should just go off and do something completely different for a few years. She may not be 23 but shes still got time. I hope I can get to the movie. Id like to see it on the big screen and I hear theres the cool scary spider bit. - -------------------------- Tom --slushy, good description. Why dont people drum like Moon and Bonham anymore? - ----------- Kay _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:11:30 -0500 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: Re: Anal Hacksawing Kay wrote: > > I hate it when authors > are viewed as commercial machines > expected to just punch out product But book contracts exist where N books are required within M years -- just like record deals. Whether JKR signed such a one, I dunno -- but her publicists make much of books being "late" to keep her in the news. And still most of the Uncle books remain out of print, fetching $200+ used. It's a crime. Stewart ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 09:12:52 -0600 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: too much typing about too many subjects Quoting James Dignan : > Saome songs just cannot be covered successfully - either because they are > so strange that it is physically impossible (if you tried covering > "Revolution no. 9", you'd end up with a different piece) Which didn't prevent The Shazam from trying, on their _Rev9_ EP - worth hearing if you like guitar pop along the lines of the Who circa '66 and '67. I'm not so sure about the "uncoverable" songs that are so intrinsically linked with a particular performance: some examples? - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: PLEASE! You are sending cheese information to me. I don't want it. :: I have no goats or cows or any other milk producing animal! :: --"raus" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 16:13:53 +0000 (GMT) From: Michael R Godwin Subject: Re: Opening the mouth I have just been looking at answers to the question: 'Who said, "Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt"?' at They don't seem to have a conclusive answer. Can anyone nail it, please? - - Mike Godwin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 11:26:55 -0500 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: Re: Opening the mouth Michael R Godwin wrote: > > They don't seem to have a conclusive answer. Can anyone > nail it, please? It's one of those "difficult" ones that have been attributed to everyone. Mark Twain is the most common source, but no-one's quite sure when or in what form he wrote it first. It seems to be a paraphrasing of Proverbs 17:28: "Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding." Don't thank me, thank the exo-brain ... Stewart ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:42:06 -0600 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: Opening the mouth Quoting Michael R Godwin : > I have just been looking at answers to the question: > 'Who said, "Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to > open it and remove all doubt"?' at > > > They don't seem to have a conclusive answer. Can anyone nail it, please? Dunno - but was it in reference to one of the Gallaghers? ..Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: sex, drugs, revolt, Eskimos, atheism ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 12:10:37 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: fuzzy warbles? On Mon, 2 Dec 2002, drew wrote: > Is anyone ordering these? Has anyone heard them yet? > Should I or shouldn't I? I ordered them on the grounds that I'd heard a few of those songs and liked them better than anything on either half of Apple Venus. I do have the gnawing feeling that I'll get them, listen to them once, and feel like a spendthrift for not loving them instantly. a ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:16:45 -0800 From: "Rex.Broome" Subject: You can, in fact, get quite a lot of "Satisfaction" Eb: >>I suppose whether 40 can be readily described as "young" is up to individual >>discretion. I've decided it can be, just to preserve the option for myself in a few years. __________________ Tom C: >>Our daughter is almost a year old and I find myself having this fantasy of her >>growing up on some sort of hippie ranch with horses, overlooking the Pacific. >>Then again I'd like her to be in an intellectual environment like a college town. >>We'll probably just paralyze ourselves with indecision and end up raising her >>right here in San Jose. I hear every single bit of that, with the possible exception of the ranch being "hippie". But you got the location spot on... Big Sur, I'd say. I think we will move eventually, but that cost of living thing is so pesky-- tends to limit one to inland areas. Proximity to family is also an issue... we have nary a grandparent within reasonable distance right now, and in my family's case I'm depriving them of contact with their only grandchild. (For those keeping score, though, our second daughter is due in... cripes, three weeks...) ____________ James: >> is it true that John Cage's "4'33"" is in 4/4? Hah! You've hit perhaps the one composition where the answer can only be said to be right there on the sheet music. Or what about something like the song "All" by the Descendants? It's one beat long. Is it in 1/1? ____________ Kay: >>I was deformed at an early age my my dads impromptue drunken recitations of >>Scot or Macauley or Kipling or etc. This is almost definitely totally perverse, but I really like to hear stories about peoples' fathers who were both alcoholic and intellectual (not that you're specifically saying that, Kay, but it just brought this to mind). I'm sure there's a lot of sadness that goes with such scenarios, but it really tugs at my heartstrings for some reason. Possibly because I myself go oddly literary when I've had a few. And it kind of evokes a lost era where people read more and literature was more of a common glue to society than, like, Gilligan's Island or whatever. Dunno. __________ Satisfaction: The Album: One must not forget Television's live cover, most readily available on "The Blow Up", and Britney Spears' version! The AMG also lists probable covers by Mountain, Otis Redding, Alien Sex Fiend , The Count Five, and quite interestingly Clawhammer's cover of Devo's cover on their album "Q: Are We Not Men? A: We Are Not Devo!". And at least one reggae and several Spanish versions. There's also the remix of Fatboy Slim's "Rockefeller Skank" built around a sample of the Satisfaction riff, and I would also put Mr. Soul on there for balance. - -Rex "just how white can my shirts be?" Broome ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 10:57:39 -0800 From: Tom Clark Subject: Re: You can, in fact, get quite a lot of "Satisfaction" on 12/3/02 10:16 AM, Rex.Broome at Rex.Broome@preferredmedia.com wrote: > > I hear every single bit of that, with the possible exception of the ranch > being "hippie". But you got the location spot on... Big Sur, I'd say. I don't really know what I meant by that; maybe the nature-loving, running-through-a-field-of-daisies aspect. Big Sur is beautiful, but there's no "there" there. I'm thinking Santa Barbara area... > Or what about something like the song "All" by the Descendants? It's one > beat long. Is it in 1/1? You need to extrapolate. It's clearly in 12/8! > -Rex "just how white can my shirts be?" Broome The answer is none. None more white. on 12/3/02 6:58 AM, Maurer Rose, Inverse Nome at theyarenotlong@hotmail.com wrote: > Why dont people drum like Moon and Bonham anymore? Because of Dave Grohl. - -tc ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 19:19:17 +0000 From: "Maurer Rose, Inverse Nome" Subject: Re:Opening the mouth Godwin: 'Who said, "Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt"?' Whats interesting about it is that it can be self-referential. It can condem the snideness of person who says it about another, thou not always. Kay _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 14:30:30 -0500 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: Re: Opening the mouth Kay wrote: > > What's interesting about it is that it can be > self-referential. It can condem > the snideness of person who says it about another Which, if I read it correctly, is exactly how it was used in Hogg's "The Private Memoirs and Confessions of a Justified Sinner", which I'm re-reaeding, and enjoying more than before. But I do wish that the Gutenberg edition had been proof-read... Stewart ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 12:08:11 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: too much typing about too many subjects >I'm not so sure about the "uncoverable" songs that are so intrinsically linked >with a particular performance: some examples? I do think some songs are essentially uncoverable, on a conceptual level. For whatever reason, the first example which usually pops into my head is Lennon's "Oh Yoko." Cute pop song, but...anyone else singing it would sound really stupid. For that matter, I'd say "Mother" is fairly uncoverable, too. (And yes, finding artists who have tried won't change my mind.) I did something that I practically *never* do, last night...I went to a record store and spontaneously bought an album which I didn't intend to buy, purely based on in-store soundclips and a cheap price. What's more, I believe it's going to end up in my top 10. Yup, Mary, I caught your addiction: Interpol. Eb ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 12:16:17 -0800 From: "Jason Brown (Echo Services Inc)" Subject: RE: too much typing about too many subjects I totally agree. Barbra Streisand's cover of "Mother" must be heard to be believed. Cheap Trick's cover of "Magical Mystery Tour" is similarly useless. Interestingly, the Minus 5's cover of "My Mummy's Dead" works just fine. - -----Original Message----- From: Eb [mailto:ElBroome@earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 11:08 AM To: fgz Subject: Re: too much typing about too many subjects >I'm not so sure about the "uncoverable" songs that are so intrinsically linked >with a particular performance: some examples? I do think some songs are essentially uncoverable, on a conceptual level. For whatever reason, the first example which usually pops into my head is Lennon's "Oh Yoko." Cute pop song, but...anyone else singing it would sound really stupid. For that matter, I'd say "Mother" is fairly uncoverable, too. (And yes, finding artists who have tried won't change my mind.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 11:41:55 -0800 From: "Michael E. Kupietz, wearing a pointy hat" Subject: Re: too much typing about too many subjects At 9:12 AM -0600 12/3/02, Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey propounded thusly: >I'm not so sure about the "uncoverable" songs that are so intrinsically >linked >with a particular performance: some examples? Stairway to Heaven. Sure, it's been covered numerous times, but only as a novelty - a disco version? Zappa doing it note for note with the guitar solo played by 4 horns, playing farting noises on his keyboard throughout it? - and even then retaining as much of the original as possible. Mike - -- ======== We need love, expression, and truth. We must not allow ourselves to believe that we can fill the round hole of our spirit with the square peg of objective rationale. - Paul Eppinger At non effugies meos iambos - Gaius Valerius Catallus ("...but you won't get away from my poems.") "Moderation in all things, except Wild Turkey." - Evel Knievel ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 12:40:01 -0800 From: "Michael E. Kupietz, wearing a pointy hat" Subject: Re: too much typing about too many subjects At 12:08 PM -0700 12/3/02, Eb propounded thusly: > I'd say "Mother" is >fairly uncoverable, too. (And yes, finding artists who have tried >won't change my mind.) I saw Extreme Elvis do an AMAZING cover of Mother a few months ago. (Last person I would've expected to, too.) Stuck pretty close to the original, but an intense, powerhouse performance. Mike - -- ======== We need love, expression, and truth. We must not allow ourselves to believe that we can fill the round hole of our spirit with the square peg of objective rationale. - Paul Eppinger At non effugies meos iambos - Gaius Valerius Catallus ("...but you won't get away from my poems.") "Moderation in all things, except Wild Turkey." - Evel Knievel ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 13:20:20 -0800 (PST) From: drew Subject: that's-a what i say > From: rosso@videotron.ca [The Witches] > The book ends on a much darker note. There's no good witch, > and no recovery for the little boy, who lives the rest of his mouse > lifespan as a witch-hunter. Excellent...much better (and, as I said, much more unsettling). I'm not surprised they changed it, though I wish they'd made the tacked-on happy ending make SOME KINDA FREAKIN SENSE. > From: Jill Brand > > (does anyone else feel that Goblet of Fire was screaming out for some > better editing?) Yes, definitely, but now that Rowling is established as an author she doesn't get good editing anymore. It seems to be a rule. Sigh. > Paul McGann to play Remus Lupin Hell, he could play Scabbers and I'd be happy. > Who will play Sirius Black? Alan Rickman in Sherriff-of-Nottingham facial hair! Oh, wait a minute... > Is > it true that Christopher Lee will be the new Dumbledore? I sincerely hope not; that wouldn't work either. Ian McKellen would be fine if he weren't already playing essentially the same character in Lord of the Rings. My beef with Harris is that he seemed incredibly absent and flaccid; I think Lee would be a little too intense, if not too sinister. To me, Dumbledore was always jollier and warmer, with a livelier sense of humor. In all honesty it should be a part any older male actor could handle with ease, which is why Harris was so frustrating. Maybe we could stick a beard on Tom Baker... > albums), but I don't think they sound anything alike. I certainly see > that Damon Albarn got a lot of his lyrical themes from the Kinks, but the > music is thoroughly different. Glad to hear I'm not crazy -- that's pretty much how I hear it too. > From: Eb > > But Garrett, a committed and eloquent environmental activist, said it was "time > for me to move on and immerse myself in those things which are of deep concern > to me and which I have been unable to fully apply myself to up to now." That's pretty cool. - -- drew at stormgreen dot com http://www.stormgreen.com/~drew/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 18:27:46 +0000 (GMT) From: brian@lazerlove5.com Subject: 2002 tour photos Sorry if this was already posted. 'Official' photos from the 2002 tour: http://thesoftboys.com/photopages/photostour.html# Oh yeah, just listen to Glass Flesh II last night. Man! There are some good covers on that! I'd encourage any feg who doesn't have it to buy it for themselves for Xmas. I think it's on sale at the glasshotel. Nuppy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 17:58:12 -0500 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: The Last-but-one Waltz forwarded from a HMR list, where the response is "This is one of the most depressing articles I've read in ages": summary: > [Delray Beach commodities trader] Jerry Leeman > had this crazy idea back in August: to recreate, > with local musicians, the 1976 farewell concert > of The Band ... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 15:32:31 -0800 From: Tom Clark Subject: Re: The Last-but-one Waltz on 12/3/02 2:58 PM, Stewart C. Russell at scruss@sympatico.ca wrote: > forwarded from a HMR list, where the response is "This is one of the most > depressing articles I've read in ages": > > .column> > > summary: >> [Delray Beach commodities trader] Jerry Leeman >> had this crazy idea back in August: to recreate, >> with local musicians, the 1976 farewell concert >> of The Band ... That's funny, I've always wanted to recreate Altamont. But with hamsters. - -tc np Talking Heads "Stop Making Sense" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 21:18:07 -0500 (EST) From: Jill Brand Subject: Hey Max, did you go to this one? For all the Yo La Tengo people, I just got this from the Kinks list: Since no one's mentioned it yet, last night Ray guested with Yo La Tengo as part of YLT's annual Hanukkah shows at Maxwell's. He joined the band for a three-song encore, e.g. "This Is Where I Belong," "Animal Farm" and "Till the End of the Day." I, uh, wish I'd been there. Jill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 21:44:58 -0500 From: "Maximilian Lang" Subject: Re: Hey Max, did you go to this one? >From: Jill Brand >Reply-To: Jill Brand >To: fegmaniax@smoe.org >Subject: Hey Max, did you go to this one? >Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 21:18:07 -0500 (EST) > >For all the Yo La Tengo people, I just got this from the Kinks list: > >Since no one's mentioned it yet, last night Ray guested with Yo La Tengo >as part of YLT's annual Hanukkah shows at Maxwell's. He joined the band >for a three-song encore, e.g. "This Is Where I Belong," "Animal Farm" and >"Till the End of the Day." > > >I, uh, wish I'd been there. > >Jill F$%K, no. We had John Cameron Mitchell. I am by no means complaining, he was brilliant. Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy, why did I have to miss Ray Davies. There is always next year, Max _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 03:08:59 -0800 From: Eb Subject: Amazon... ...says Nextdoorland is the 34th best album of 2002. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/1200212/21/ Eb, grumbling about "the Wilco thing" again ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V11 #410 ********************************