From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V11 #407 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Sunday, December 1 2002 Volume 11 : Number 407 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: more metre and rhythm [Eb ] Re: more metre and rhythm [Eb ] Sign of the Times ["Michael Wells" ] Re: Sign of the Times [Eb ] Martin Bell/New Zealand/IDG is out of the office. ["Martin Bell" ] Re: fegmaniax-digest V11 #406 [rosso@videotron.ca] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 15:29:09 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: more metre and rhythm >Sadly my sheet music to Abbey Road (which I hunted out this morning) only >lists the Lennon & McCartney songs. I can relate. For yeeeeeeears, I've had a rumpled sheet-music compendium called "Beatles Complete." It's almost 500 pages, and it was pretty much the blueprint for teaching myself to play "pop" piano. Impressively, it even includes a bunch of rare Lennon/McCartney songs which they wrote for other artists. "Tip of My Tongue," "I'll Keep You Satisfied," "Step Inside Love," "Bad to Me," "Hello Little Girl," "I'm in Love," "Goodbye," "I'll Be on My Way," "Love of the Loved," "Come and Get It"...songs like that. There are even a few early solo songs, like Lennon's "Instant Karma," "Cold Turkey" and "Give Peace a Chance" and McCartney's "Oo You." But it's odd, noting the ways in which the book is *incomplete*. Of course, it's missing all the cover songs, which is understandable. But it's also missing "Wild Honey Pie" and "Why Don't We Do It in the Road?," the novelty fragments from the White Album. Plus, Ringo's "Don't Pass Me By" and "Octopus' Garden." It's also missing "Revolution #9," for more justified reasons. And as with your above example, George is very shortchanged. Darn those publishing issues. Some Harrison songs are included, but most of the post-Magical Mystery Tour songs are absent. Including "While My Guitar Gently Weeps," "Something," "Piggies," "Savoy Truffle," "Old Brown Shoe," "I Me Mine," "Long, Long, Long" and "For You Blue." And yet, "The Inner Light" *is* included. So is "It's All Too Much" (oh, what a stellar bit of transcription *that* is ) and "Only a Northern Song." These deletions don't bother me much *now*, but they sure did back when I was less adept at playing by ear. Eb PS A dark song in 3? Nick Cave's "The Carny"! A masterpiece. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 15:31:24 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: more metre and rhythm >Some Harrison songs are included, but most of the post-Magical >Mystery Tour songs are absent. Including "While My Guitar Gently >Weeps," "Something," "Piggies," "Savoy Truffle," "Old Brown Shoe," >"I Me Mine," "Long, Long, Long" and "For You Blue." Oh, and "Here Comes the Sun" too! Sheesh, how could I forget to mention that? Eb ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 18:09:42 -0600 From: "Michael Wells" Subject: Sign of the Times Eb opines: > It would be ridiculous to conceive a piece which alternates the time > signature from measure to measure, for an extended period. Actually it's more common than you might think, though I suppose those of us who spent a lot of time listening to Rush, King Crimson, Zappa and the like heard it much more often. In the period immediately surrounding 'Tom Sawyer', for example, the Rush catalogue is rife with examples: The fundamental verse structure of 'Freewill' is 6/4 - 8/4 - 6/4 - 7/4 behind the vocals, deftly changing to 6/4 - 7/4 - 6/4 - 8/4, Part VIII (Waltz of the Shreeves) of 'La Villa Strangiato' contains 20 alternating measures of 3/8 and 6/8; The entire introduction to 'Jacobs Ladder' alternates 5/4 and 6/4 measures, cleverly echoed later in the song by alternating measures of 6/8 and 7/8; In 'Limelight' the verses go 4/4 - 3/4 (x3) - 4/4 - 2/4 - 4/4 - 2/4 - 3/4 (x2) - 4/4 (x2) The riff introduction to 'Cygnus X-1' runs 4/4 - 2/4 - 4/4 (x2) - 3/4 - 4/4 (x2) - 2/4 - 4/4 (x3) before transitioning into three repititions of 4/4 - 2/4 - 4/4 - 3/4 - 4/4 - 2/4 - 4/4 (x2). Interestingly in the intial three appearances of consecutive 4/4 measures (x2, etc), the first of those measures all the instruments are at rest - you have to count it out to play it correctly. Granted, these last two examples have multiple measures in the same time, but do go to show the type of feeling you can generate by using a frequently alternating meter...i.e. though it is not an "extended period" by any stretch, 'The Spirit of Radio' has a memorable eight-bar bridge of alternating 3/4 and 4/4 measures. I think it's pretty cool, actually, but then it's no indie-pop that's for sure. Michael "let's write it in six flats" Wells Ps. and I haven't heard it in years, but ISTR Zep's 'The Ocean' alternated 4 and 7 in the verses? Or was this mentioned already? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 17:30:37 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: Sign of the Times >Eb opines: >> It would be ridiculous to conceive a piece which alternates the time >> signature from measure to measure, for an extended period. > >Actually it's more common than you might think >In the period immediately surrounding 'Tom >Sawyer', for example, the Rush catalogue is rife with examples: Now when did I ever claim Rush's catalog had no ridiculous traits? >The fundamental verse structure of 'Freewill' is 6/4 - 8/4 - 6/4 - 7/4 >behind the vocals, deftly changing to 6/4 - 7/4 - 6/4 - 8/4, > >Part VIII (Waltz of the Shreeves) of 'La Villa Strangiato' contains 20 >alternating measures of 3/8 and 6/8; > >The entire introduction to 'Jacobs Ladder' alternates 5/4 and 6/4 measures, >cleverly echoed later in the song by alternating measures of 6/8 and 7/8; > >In 'Limelight' the verses go 4/4 - 3/4 (x3) - 4/4 - 2/4 - 4/4 - 2/4 - 3/4 >(x2) - 4/4 (x2) > >The riff introduction to 'Cygnus X-1' runs 4/4 - 2/4 - 4/4 (x2) - 3/4 - 4/4 >(x2) - 2/4 - 4/4 (x3) before transitioning into three repititions of 4/4 - 2/4 - 4/4 - 3/4 - 4/4 - 2/4 - 4/4 (x2). You're spending waaay too much time counting, dude. Why is this list suddenly de-evolving into soulless prog math? ;) I don't entirely trust your statements above, anyway. Are you making these own statements based on your own speculations, or based on seeing the sheet music? I can't hum these songs in my head well enough to count them, but I wouldn't be surprised (for instance) if "La Villa Strangiato" was actually 10 measures of 9/8, instead. Been catching up on junk movies, over the long weekend. For those who think I'm a sci-fi/fantasy basher, lemme just say that I think the first "Harry Potter" film is going to be watched by new generations of kids for a long, long time. A classic of its type. On the other hand, my god...could "Panic Room" possibly suck more? Disappointed with "Ali" and "The Curse of the Jade Scorpion," as well. Eb ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 01:00:39 +1300 From: "Martin Bell" Subject: Martin Bell/New Zealand/IDG is out of the office. I will be out of the office starting 29/11/2002 and will not return until 05/12/2002. I will respond to your message when I return. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 14:15:21 +0100 From: Sebastian Hagedorn Subject: re: Marry Me (Lie! Lie!) - -- "Michael E. Kupietz, wearing a pointy hat" is rumored to have mumbled on Samstag, 30. November 2002 14:56 Uhr -0800 regarding re: Marry Me (Lie! Lie!): > Wow! Thanks for posting that! It definitely is dark, and it definitely is > in 3! (or 6, I'm undecided.) You say most of their stuff is like this? Yup. It's all that dark and most of it is in 6/8. I prefer the first CD (Get Lost - Don't Lie), but "I'm Never Gonna Die Again" is also pretty good. - -- Sebastian Hagedorn Ehrenfeldg|rtel 156, 50823 Kvln, Germany http://www.spinfo.uni-koeln.de/~hgd/ "Being just contaminates the void" - Robyn Hitchcock ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:40:07 +1300 From: grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan) Subject: Re: fegmaniax-digest V11 #406 >Surprised nobody mentioned Pink Floyd's "Bike", which switches time >signatures every five seconds or so. (The trick to playing it: it isn't in >a time signature. It just goes on until the words stop, no matter how many >beats that may take.) hm. I thought that was in 4/4 all the way through! >>Try "i OF-ten DREAM of TRAINS when I'M a LONE" for a nice >>lyrical iambic pentameter, or try Shakespeare. It's just >>"ta DUM ty DUM ty DUM ty DUM ty DUM". Rather than nils, >>you'll see Shakespeare stuff extra non-accented syllables here >>and there. no. That would be true if IODOT was in 4/4, surely, but not 3/4 >It would be ridiculous to conceive a piece which alternates the time >signature from measure to measure, for an extended period. I don't >hear any ambiguity to the 7/4 section at all. "Light flight" by Pentangle has alternating bars of 5/4 and 7/4 throughout the verse, according to the sheet music. >I think that what you're looking at is dactylic - BOOM-cha-cha-BOOM-cha-cha. (i)-OF-ten-rest-DREAM-rest-of-TRAINS-rest-when-I'M... oh, and as for hard& heavy in some variety of 3 time, how about the instrumental break from "21st Century Schizoid Man"? (or is this triplets yet again?) James James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand. =-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= .-=-.-=-.-=-.- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-. -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= You talk to me as if from a distance =-.-=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time -=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 15:01:19 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Countin' > >Surprised nobody mentioned Pink Floyd's "Bike", which switches time >>signatures every five seconds or so. (The trick to playing it: it isn't in >>a time signature. It just goes on until the words stop, no matter how many >>beats that may take.) > >hm. I thought that was in 4/4 all the way through! Of course, it's wrong to say "It isn't in a time signature," but it's not all in 4/4 either. That song is a really interesting case. I was just listening to "Bike," and it seems like the last two lines of the verse are in a different meter *every time*. In one verse, it sounded like a 2/4 measure followed by a 5/4 measure and a 4/4 measure. In another, it was 2/4 followed by two 4/4 measures. In another, it was a 3/4 measure followed by two 4/4 measures. Etc. Love that Syd! :) I could go into more specific detail, but this topic has become awfully anal and I think most of the list couldn't give a f*ck. Eb ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 19:20:48 -0500 From: rosso@videotron.ca Subject: Re: fegmaniax-digest V11 #406 On 2 Dec 2002 at 11:40, James Dignan wrote: > >>Try "i OF-ten DREAM of TRAINS when I'M a LONE" for a nice > >>lyrical iambic pentameter, or try Shakespeare.> > no. That would be true if IODOT was in 4/4, surely, but not 3/4 Jeez! Tell me you don't get what I said, or that this little ditty doesn't sing perfectly to the verse melody of IODOT, or that it's not iambic pentameter. 1 Shall I compare thee to a summer's day? 2 Thou art more lovely and more temperate. 3 Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May, 4 And summer's lease hath all too short a date. 5 Sometime too hot the eye of heaven shines, 6 And often is his gold complexion dimm'd; 7 And every fair from fair sometime declines, 8 By chance or nature's changing course untrimm'd; 9 But thy eternal summer shall not fade 10 Nor lose possession of that fair thou ow'st; 11 Nor shall Death brag thou wander'st in his shade, 12 When in eternal lines to time thou grow'st: 13 So long as men can breathe or eyes can see, 14 So long lives this, and this gives life to thee. Now recite the first verse of IODOT exactly as it is sung, but without notes -- just using conversational tones. Do you hear the difference between the above and IODOT? Shirley, you don't. ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V11 #407 ********************************