From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V11 #406 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Saturday, November 30 2002 Volume 11 : Number 406 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: Acronyms & time signatures ["Terrence Marks" ] Re: An introduction to time signatures for the non-musician [Sebastian Ha] Re: time signatures [Sebastian Hagedorn ] Time is waiting in the wings ["Michael E. Kupietz, wearing a pointy hat" ] Re: An introduction to time signatures for the non-musician ["Michael E. ] heh [drew ] Fwd: Re: An introduction to time signatures for the non-musician ["Michae] Re: Rush times three ["Michael Wells" ] Time again ["Maurer Rose, Inverse Nome" ] 2/4 progressive jam ["Michael E. Kupietz" ] Re: Rush times three [Eb ] Re: An introduction to time signatures for the non-musician [Sebastian Ha] Re: Hey, Re: Time again ["Michael E. Kupietz, wearing a pointy hat" Subject: RE: Acronyms & time signatures Surprised nobody mentioned Pink Floyd's "Bike", which switches time signatures every five seconds or so. (The trick to playing it: it isn't in a time signature. It just goes on until the words stop, no matter how many beats that may take.) And, hmm...The Turtles' "Grim Reaper of Love" is in 5/4. Any Soft Boys songs in unusual time signatures? For some reason I think that the turnaround in "Muriel's Hoof" is. And "Superman" switches from a really cool 3/4 on the verse to 4/4 on the chorus, and only halfway switches back for the second verse. Mind you, I once tried to write a song in 4/3. I got about ten minutes into that before I realized that it wouldn't work because there were no such thing as third-notes. Terrence Marks http://nice.purrsia.com http://www.unlikeminerva.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 00:15:04 -0500 From: rosso@videotron.ca Subject: Re: An introduction to time signatures for the non-musician On 29 Nov 2002 at 18:40, Michael E. Kupietz, wearing a wrote: > OK, let me ask the poets a question. Here's the first verse of a poem I've > been working on. What meter is this? > > "I have, in my time, seen some cheeses. > No stranger to Swiss or Gruyere, > I may, as I wander, wherever I pleases, > pause briefly to ponder that prized food of meeses, > and of some poets, here and there." > > I assumed it was iambic pentameter? Try "i OF-ten DREAM of TRAINS when I'M a LONE" for a nice lyrical iambic pentameter, or try Shakespeare. It's just "ta DUM ty DUM ty DUM ty DUM ty DUM". Rather than nils, you'll see Shakespeare stuff extra non-accented syllables here and there. Kay, feel free to mop the floor with me if it will further the list's education. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 00:15:04 -0500 From: rosso@videotron.ca Subject: Re: time signatures On 29 Nov 2002 at 20:41, Michael E. Kupietz wrote: > But other than > ultra-cerebral prog-rockers, you never hear a piece of music where the > different instruments are in different time signatures. Careful with that generalization, Eugene! How about Brubeck? Gamelan? Africa? http://www.xs4all.nl/~marcz/Polyrhythm.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 00:01:12 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Rush Did I see someone claim "Tom Sawyer" is in 3/4? Huh?? Eb ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 09:08:09 +0100 From: Sebastian Hagedorn Subject: Re: An introduction to time signatures for the non-musician - -- "Michael E. Kupietz, wearing a pointy hat" is rumored to have mumbled on Freitag, 29. November 2002 18:40 Uhr -0800 regarding Re: An introduction to time signatures for the non-musician: > I racked my brain trying to come up with an > example of truly sinister-sounding music in 3/4, but I don't think it's > possible. These Immortal Souls - Marry Me (Lie! Lie!) - -- Sebastian Hagedorn Ehrenfeldg|rtel 156, 50823 Kvln, Germany http://www.spinfo.uni-koeln.de/~hgd/ "Being just contaminates the void" - Robyn Hitchcock ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 09:12:29 +0100 From: Sebastian Hagedorn Subject: Re: time signatures - -- rosso@videotron.ca is rumored to have mumbled on Samstag, 30. November 2002 0:15 Uhr -0500 regarding Re: time signatures: > On 29 Nov 2002 at 20:41, Michael E. Kupietz wrote: > >> But other than >> ultra-cerebral prog-rockers, you never hear a piece of music where the >> different instruments are in different time signatures. > > Careful with that generalization, Eugene! How about Brubeck? > Gamelan? Africa? And of course the famous section of Mozart's Don Giovanni where he has a second orchestra playing from the balcony - that's just plain weird but great! But maybe Mozart was a prog-rocker? Nah, not really. - -- Sebastian Hagedorn Ehrenfeldg|rtel 156, 50823 Kvln, Germany http://www.spinfo.uni-koeln.de/~hgd/ "Being just contaminates the void" - Robyn Hitchcock ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 00:28:30 -0800 From: "Michael E. Kupietz, wearing a pointy hat" Subject: Time is waiting in the wings At 12:15 AM -0500 11/30/02, rosso@videotron.ca propounded thusly: >On 29 Nov 2002 at 20:41, Michael E. Kupietz wrote: >> But other than >> ultra-cerebral prog-rockers, you never hear a piece of music where the >> different instruments are in different time signatures. > >Careful with that generalization, Eugene! How about Brubeck? >Gamelan? Africa? Mea culpa. I was unaware of those. Everything I know comes from reading "Guitar" magazine. This is the beautiful thing about music, every time you think you've mapped out the landscape, the horizon retreats further into the distance. At 12:15 AM -0500 11/30/02, rosso@videotron.ca propounded thusly: >On 29 Nov 2002 at 18:40, Michael E. Kupietz, wearing a wrote: >> OK, let me ask the poets a question. Here's the first verse of a poem >>I've >> been working on. What meter is this? >> >> "I have, in my time, seen some cheeses. >> No stranger to Swiss or Gruyere, >> I may, as I wander, wherever I pleases, >> pause briefly to ponder that prized food of meeses, >> and of some poets, here and there." >> >> I assumed it was iambic pentameter? > >Try "i OF-ten DREAM of TRAINS when I'M a LONE" for a nice >lyrical iambic pentameter, or try Shakespeare. It's just >"ta DUM ty DUM ty DUM ty DUM ty DUM". Rather than nils, >you'll see Shakespeare stuff extra non-accented syllables here >and there. > >Kay, feel free to mop the floor with me if it will further the >list's education. A-ha! I love this, because it corresponds so closely to music. So our "nil" beats are in there. My deadly serious, socially relevant verse is metrically exactly the same as IODOT, except I put syllables in where IODOT has rests. I knew me & Shakespeare had something in common! :-) At 12:54 AM -0500 11/30/02, Terrence Marks propounded thusly: >Surprised nobody mentioned Pink Floyd's "Bike", which switches time >signatures every five seconds or so. (The trick to playing it: it isn't in >a time signature. It just goes on until the words stop, no matter how many >beats that may take.) That's the feeling I've always got with Syd - he just sorta goes until he's done. Robert Johnson did the same thing occasionally. Listening to these things helped a great deal when jamming with the crackhead blues street musicians I met when I was living up in North Beach. I've had some let me join them on stage for a jam only to try and fool me with that stream-of-consciousness shit. Sorry, suckers, I been listening to Syd! For the classical heads, Erik Satie's "Sports And Diversions" was written without key or time signature or even bar lines, just music that goes from start to finish... a great idea, although a lot of the pieces do fall easily into that standard notation. That's not withstanding Satie's other tricks, such as having the baseline play octaves with the top note higher than the melody so you've got to have your left hand skipping back and forth over the right to play it. Gotta love a composer with a sense of humor. > And "Superman" switches from a really >cool 3/4 on the verse to 4/4 on the chorus, Very true! And an excellent example of changing time signature mid-song for readers who want a general audible example of what this kind of hijinx sounds like. BTW glad to see we had a couple of other fegs home on Friday night, it's always good to have a couple others about and making conversation. Been a nice periodic break from cleaning my room. Now, Afrika Bambaataa is playing at the Cat Club tonight so I'm out of here to try and boogie off some tomorrow morning's inevitable Sunday Feeling. Catcha later! Mike - -- ======== We need love, expression, and truth. We must not allow ourselves to believe that we can fill the round hole of our spirit with the square peg of objective rationale. - Paul Eppinger At non effugies meos iambos - Gaius Valerius Catallus ("...but you won't get away from my poems.") "Moderation in all things, except Wild Turkey." - Evel Knievel ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 00:31:14 -0800 From: "Michael E. Kupietz, wearing a pointy hat" Subject: Re: An introduction to time signatures for the non-musician Not familiar with it, but very interested - can you past a mp3? At 9:08 AM +0100 11/30/02, Sebastian Hagedorn propounded thusly: >-- "Michael E. Kupietz, wearing a pointy hat" is >rumored to have mumbled on Freitag, 29. November 2002 18:40 Uhr -0800 >regarding Re: An introduction to time signatures for the non-musician: > >> I racked my brain trying to come up with an >> example of truly sinister-sounding music in 3/4, but I don't think it's >> possible. > >These Immortal Souls - Marry Me (Lie! Lie!) >-- >Sebastian Hagedorn >Ehrenfeldg|rtel 156, 50823 Kvln, Germany >http://www.spinfo.uni-koeln.de/~hgd/ > >"Being just contaminates the void" - Robyn Hitchcock - -- ======== We need love, expression, and truth. We must not allow ourselves to believe that we can fill the round hole of our spirit with the square peg of objective rationale. - Paul Eppinger At non effugies meos iambos - Gaius Valerius Catallus ("...but you won't get away from my poems.") ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 00:41:02 -0800 (PST) From: drew Subject: heh So, um, maybe that long followup wasn't directed just to me, but I do understand that time signatures apply to the whole song. I've had a year or two of music theory and have been singing in musicals and choirs since my freshman year in high school. All I was asking is why the verse lines of IODOT have such a strong 3/4 beat that seems to "rest" while the guitar figure is played between each line. It's hard for me to hear the same beat there, but maybe it's there and I just don't hear it. Oh well. - -- drew at stormgreen dot com http://www.stormgreen.com/~drew/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 00:43:24 -0800 From: "Michael E. Kupietz, wearing a pointy hat" Subject: Fwd: Re: An introduction to time signatures for the non-musician Uhm, POST an mp3. POST. Sorry, been arguing with an ex-girlfriend over email between feg posts, the word "past" is kind temporarily hardwired into my fingers. At 9:08 AM +0100 11/30/02, Sebastian Hagedorn propounded thusly: >-- "Michael E. Kupietz, wearing a pointy hat" is >rumored to have mumbled on Freitag, 29. November 2002 18:40 Uhr -0800 >regarding Re: An introduction to time signatures for the non-musician: > >> I racked my brain trying to come up with an >> example of truly sinister-sounding music in 3/4, but I don't think it's >> possible. > >These Immortal Souls - Marry Me (Lie! Lie!) >-- >Sebastian Hagedorn >Ehrenfeldg|rtel 156, 50823 Kvln, Germany >http://www.spinfo.uni-koeln.de/~hgd/ > >"Being just contaminates the void" - Robyn Hitchcock - -- ======== We need love, expression, and truth. We must not allow ourselves to believe that we can fill the round hole of our spirit with the square peg of objective rationale. - Paul Eppinger At non effugies meos iambos - Gaius Valerius Catallus ("...but you won't get away from my poems.") - --- end forwarded text - -- ======== We need love, expression, and truth. We must not allow ourselves to believe that we can fill the round hole of our spirit with the square peg of objective rationale. - Paul Eppinger At non effugies meos iambos - Gaius Valerius Catallus ("...but you won't get away from my poems.") ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 07:49:44 -0600 From: "Michael Wells" Subject: Re: Rush times three > Did I see someone claim "Tom Sawyer" is in 3/4? Huh?? > > Eb It is 3/4 for a few measures very late in the song (alternating with cut time and finishing in 7/8)...which was the point, that there are moments of heavy 3/4 out there though not necessarily whole songs. Interestingly the pre-solo and solo sections of TS, which sound like they're in alternating measures of 3 and 4, are actually in 7. Michael pointy-hat: > Although if it's nonconsecutive instances of 3/4 in the middle of several > measures of time signature changes, I'm not sure it counts, because you > lose 3/4's perky insistence if you don't stick with it for a good couple of > measures. I agree. Michael ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 16:19:38 +0000 From: "Maurer Rose, Inverse Nome" Subject: Time again Mike's poem as I read it(/=stress): - -/--/--/- /-/-/-/- /-/-/-/-/-/- - -/-/-/-/-/-- - ---/-/-/ Otherwise known as hodgepodge light verse. Is there a second verse with the same meter;-? As you can see meter is much in the reading, the accent of the reader, even in the mood of the reader. And Im still not sure about the nil bits. A musician would hear them because of his training with songs, but would most poets and readers? In order for poetic meter to work it needs to be more obvious than a song rhythm because it is so often read silently(thou thats not its origin, but aside from Shakespeare, how many non-musician poets do we now hear rather than read?) yet -- heres the catch -- its job is to work on the body. If it works properly it can set up a light trance state. Tt does this by influencing the ear to focus the mind without anything actually being heard. Yup--one hand clapping. It works, like our pulse, as an inaudible sound, a insensate(as far as we are consiously aware at least) sensation. RossO: >Kay, feel free to mop the floor with me if it will further the list's >education. Well, if you really want me to you'd have to say something dumb first but youve brought up a very good point. Absolutely strictly metered poetry becomes too regular to be heard with any attention to the words after awhile(Swinburne's and sometimes Tennyson's problem.) Its so bloody repatitious it gets wearysome. The best poets do indeed throw in variations, for one thing its a great tool to make the reader or listener pay extra attention to the bit thats different. For another, it can change the mood. Im not sure thou that a change in meter is the same thing as nil beats. And word sounds start to play a part in this too. Think how Shakes does most of a scene in blank verse but often throws in a rhyming couplet at the end(almost like it was a sonnet.) That rhyme signels closure, and end to the flowing rhyrthm. Often the couplet is an ironic or paradoxical comment that caps the drama or comedy of the scene. I really do think of sound(whither as melody or vowel sounds in words) and rhythem as its own langauge, a lanuage that every culture may read differently, but which is a real source of powerful effects. I pulled the following off the Net, its in the middle of an article at:http://www.eff.org/Net_culture/Consciousness/cybersynchronicity.article "In The Neural Lyre: Poetic Meter, the Brain, and Time, Frederick Turner and Ernst Poppel note that "...brain processing is essentially rhythmic. That these rhythms can be "driven" or reinforced by repeated photic or auditory stimuli, to produce peculiar subjective states, is already well known." They go on to show that this rhythmic nature is the same across cultural boundaries: "Metered poetry is a highly complex activity which is culturally universal. (Frederick Turner) has heard poetry recited by Ndembu spirit- doctors in Zambia and has, with the anthropologist Wulf Schiefenhovel, translated Eipo poetry from Central New Guinea. He reports, as a poet, that the meter of Eipo poetry, when reproduced in English, has much the same emotional effect as it does in the original." Through their study of poetry in hundreds of languages, Turner and Poppel have identified a fundamental temporal unit that seems to be shared by all humans. "It has been known for many years that rhythmic photic and auditory stimulation can evoke epileptic symptoms in seizure-prone individuals, and can produce powerful involuntary reactions even in normal persons. The rhythmic stimulus entrains and then amplifies natural brain rhythms, especially if it is tuned to an important frequency such as the ten cycle-per-second alpha wave." They have determined the length of this unit to be three seconds; in poetry, this period is identified with a vocal space unit discernible in all the languages they studied, which they call LINE. Rhythmic driving at frequencies that are harmonically related to this temporal unit produces astounding effects. "The curious subjective effects of metered verse--relaxation, a holistic sense of the world and so on--are no doubt attributable to a very mild pseudotrance state induced by the auditory driving effect of this repetition." Moreover, such stimuli seem to have an integrative effect on people. "Auditory driving is known to affect the right brain much more powerfully than the left: thus, where ordinary unmetered prose comes to us in a "mono" mode, so to speak, affecting the left brain predominantly, metered language comes to us in a "stereo" mode, simultaneously calling on the verbal resources of the left and the rhythmic potentials of the right." "But the driving rhythm of the three-second LINE is not just any rhythm. It is, as we have seen, tuned to the largest limited unit of auditory time, its specious present, within which causal sequences can be compared, and free decisions taken. A complete poem-- which can be any length--is a duration, a realm of values, systematically divided into presents, which are the realm of action. It therefore summarizes our most sophisticated and most uniquely human integrations of time." I love the comment about mono and stereo. Thanks you everyone, and especially Mike, for all the information. I love learning stuff. Kay, working _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 23:39:13 -0800 From: "Michael E. Kupietz" Subject: 2/4 progressive jam Found a straight 2/4 in rock & roll. I'm listening to "Leftoverture" - okay, yes, I do that sometimes, it's not even really slumming, actually - and in the middle of "Cheyenne Anthem" there's not one but 2 total 2/4 jams. It sounds like a polka on acid. Goofy as shit. Fortunately they're surrounded by all this over-serious prog-rock bombast, so you know they're actually Serious Art. Mike - -- ====== "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt, Republican "In times of war, it is the duty of every sane man to survive, thus keeping the numbers of sane men strong." -- Woody Allen "Why of course the people don't want war... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship... Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to do the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, ad denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger." -- Hermann Goering, at the Nuremerg Trials ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 12:16:15 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: Rush times three >Interestingly the >pre-solo and solo sections of TS, which sound like they're in alternating >measures of 3 and 4, are actually in 7. It would be ridiculous to conceive a piece which alternates the time signature from measure to measure, for an extended period. I don't hear any ambiguity to the 7/4 section at all. Eb ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 22:13:39 +0100 From: Sebastian Hagedorn Subject: Re: An introduction to time signatures for the non-musician - -- "Michael E. Kupietz, wearing a pointy hat" is rumored to have mumbled on Samstag, 30. November 2002 0:31 Uhr -0800 regarding Re: An introduction to time signatures for the non-musician: > Not familiar with it, but very interested - can you post a mp3? > > At 9:08 AM +0100 11/30/02, Sebastian Hagedorn propounded thusly: >> -- "Michael E. Kupietz, wearing a pointy hat" is >> rumored to have mumbled on Freitag, 29. November 2002 18:40 Uhr -0800 >> regarding Re: An introduction to time signatures for the non-musician: >> >>> I racked my brain trying to come up with an >>> example of truly sinister-sounding music in 3/4, but I don't think it's >>> possible. >> >> These Immortal Souls - Marry Me (Lie! Lie!) Now that I've listened to it again I find that it's actually 6/8, as are most of their songs. But I believe that "sinister-sounding" fits it perfectly. I saw them live about three times and it was always great. The late great Epic Soundtrack's drumming is something else: Enjoy! - -- Sebastian Hagedorn Ehrenfeldg|rtel 156, 50823 Kvln, Germany http://www.spinfo.uni-koeln.de/~hgd/ "Being just contaminates the void" - Robyn Hitchcock ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 14:28:53 -0800 From: "Michael E. Kupietz, wearing a pointy hat" Subject: Re: Hey, Re: Time again At 12:41 AM -0800 11/30/02, drew propounded thusly: >So, um, maybe that long followup wasn't directed just to me, >but I do understand that time signatures apply to the whole >song. I've had a year or two of music theory and have been >singing in musicals and choirs since my freshman year in >high school. All I was asking is why the verse lines of IODOT >have such a strong 3/4 beat that seems to "rest" while the >guitar figure is played between each line. It's hard for >me to hear the same beat there, but maybe it's there and I >just don't hear it. Oh well. Sorry, didn't mean to come across condescending, I totally misunderstood the question. I just had to throw on IODOT to check... yeah, that riff is funny, maybe it goes to 6/8 for that part - it's still in three, but he seems to put the accents in odd places. Or maybe it's syncopated, a concept I have never understood on a technical level. The same kind of funkiness goes on under "Maybe we'll we'll sleep someday/heading for paradise", which I'm almost sure is in 6 - "MAY - [rest] - [rest] - [rest] - be - we'll SLEEP - one - day - [rest] - [rest] - [rest]" and in the fadeout guitar riff. But the whole song is in some multiple of three. At 4:19 PM +0000 11/30/02, Maurer Rose, Inverse Nome propounded thusly: >Mike's poem as I read it(/=stress): > >-/--/--/- >/-/-/-/- >/-/-/-/-/-/- >-/-/-/-/-/-- >---/-/-/ > >Otherwise known as hodgepodge light verse. I like it! > Is there a second verse with the >same meter;-? "MEUNSTER AND BRIE IT'S ALL THE SAME TO ME (belloweth the mislactothrope) I HAVE, IN MY TIME HAD BETTER WITH WINE THAN WAS FORMED IN THE BOWELS OF A GOAT What discord! What spite has been uttered to curdle my smooth creamy dream! Who scorns so unfairly or greets with a shudder relation in dairy to cheesecake and butter to milk and to thick dreamy cream!" The second verse ("MUENSTER AND BRIE...") is stilted, that's intentional. Third is back to form. Incidentally, this poem (when it is finished... as you can tell, it's an epic, and is taking some time to complete) is designed to be read aloud, with the capitalized lines read through a megaphone. > >As you can see meter is much in the reading, the accent of the reader, even >in the mood of the reader. And Im still not sure about the nil bits. A >musician would hear them because of his training with songs, but would most >poets and readers? Good question - I can't see past my biases on this one. But I have read it alound without ever thinking about the meter before, ad I think those silent beats came naturaly in the recitiation. >heres the catch -- its job is to work on the body. If it >works properly it can set up a light trance state. Tt does this by >influencing the ear to focus the mind without anything actually being >heard. >Yup--one hand clapping. It works, like our pulse, as an inaudible sound, a >insensate(as far as we are consiously aware at least) sensation. From the above down, your post extremely interesting - thanks for posting it! Although the quote from that article sounds uncomfortably close to that hysterical "the repetitive beat of rock and roll is going to hypnotize our children" idea so rampant in the 50's and quoted as recently as 1987 by my grandfather. >Thanks you everyone, and especially Mike, for all the information. I love >learning stuff. You, too, these are some fascinating, thought-provoking issues. Mike, drinking his breakfast - -- ======== We need love, expression, and truth. We must not allow ourselves to believe that we can fill the round hole of our spirit with the square peg of objective rationale. - Paul Eppinger At non effugies meos iambos - Gaius Valerius Catallus ("...but you won't get away from my poems.") ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 11:53:28 +1300 From: grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan) Subject: more metre and rhythm Interesting (if a bit academic) discussion, this one. >"I have, in my time, seen some cheeses. >No stranger to Swiss or Gruyere, >I may, as I wander, wherever I pleases, >pause briefly to ponder that prized food of meeses, >and of some poets, here and there." > >I assumed it was iambic pentameter? If it was music it would be 3/4, which >would validate what Kay said earlier about some thinking poetry in 3 was >only for comic verse (although I myself consider the subject matter to be >deadly serious.) iambic is 2 or 4/4 - cha-BOOM-cha-BOOM-cha-BOOM. trochaic is also 2 or 4 - BOOM-cha-BOOM-cha-BOOM-cha. I think that what you're looking at is dactylic - BOOM-cha-cha-BOOM-cha-cha. >Now, as always, in music, there are exceptions. If you're listening to >Zappa or King Crimson, you may hear songs which involve different >instruments playing in different time signatures alongside each other. KC's sound is based partly on the multi-rhythms of southeast Asian gamelan music, in which different instruments do not necessarily keep the same time signatures. It's very rare in western musical forms, however. >One further thought on 3 - I believe there is definitely some punk in 2. >Anybody know any in 3? (Melodic punk bands like the Buzzcocks don't count. >I'm talking Angry Samoans or heavier.) I actually looked at a bit of punk and grunge while I was looking for heavy 3/4, and couldn't think of any. Since the Buzzcocks don't count I won't mention Pete Shelley's "I generate a feeling" (oops - dang). Eb: yeah, I think you're right about that part of "Here comes the sun". Just goes to show how tricky this whole business is. I'm sure I saw some sheet music to in one time that changed t/s at those points though. Sadly my sheet music to Abbey Road (which I hunted out this morning) only lists the Lennon & McCartney songs. But that does tell me that "Oh Darling" is in 12/8, as is the coda fom "I want you (She's so heavy)". Several of the songs slip from 4/4 into 2/4 for just one bar, oddly - probably to make a 'half bar' (the "Sleep little darling do not cry" bit of Golden Slumbers is probably the most obvious example). James James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand. =-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= .-=-.-=-.-=-.- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-. -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= You talk to me as if from a distance =-.-=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time -=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 14:56:04 -0800 From: "Michael E. Kupietz, wearing a pointy hat" Subject: re: Marry Me (Lie! Lie!) Wow! Thanks for posting that! It definitely is dark, and it definitely is in 3! (or 6, I'm undecided.) You say most of their stuff is like this? At 10:13 PM +0100 11/30/02, Sebastian Hagedorn propounded thusly: >Now that I've listened to it again I find that it's actually 6/8, as are >most of their songs. But I believe that "sinister-sounding" fits it >perfectly. I saw them live about three times and it was always great. The >late great Epic Soundtrack's drumming is something else: > > > >Enjoy! >-- >Sebastian Hagedorn >Ehrenfeldg|rtel 156, 50823 Kvln, Germany >http://www.spinfo.uni-koeln.de/~hgd/ > >"Being just contaminates the void" - Robyn Hitchcock - -- ======== We need love, expression, and truth. We must not allow ourselves to believe that we can fill the round hole of our spirit with the square peg of objective rationale. - Paul Eppinger At non effugies meos iambos - Gaius Valerius Catallus ("...but you won't get away from my poems.") ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V11 #406 ********************************