From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V11 #404 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Friday, November 29 2002 Volume 11 : Number 404 Today's Subjects: ----------------- London Rew Reminder/Tomorrow Nite @ Spitz [MarkP ] coldplay and momus [drew ] An introduction to time signatures for the non-musician ["Michael E. Kupi] Re: coldplay and momus [Aaron Mandel ] Re: An introduction to time signatures for the non-musician [Michael R Go] Re: An introduction to time signatures for the non-musician [Perry Ambers] Re: An introduction to time signatures for the non-musician [Perry Ambers] Post-Turkey(or veg substitute) Stress Disorder ["Maurer Rose, Inverse Nom] Re:An introduction to time signatures for the non-musician ["Maurer Rose,] Fwd: DUETS WITH DENI - This Friday - 11/29 - KIMBERLEY REW [dances with v] Yo La Tengo ["Maximilian Lang" ] reap ["Stewart C. Russell" ] Re: An introduction to time signatures for the non-musician ["Michael E. ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 06:21:33 -0800 (PST) From: MarkP Subject: London Rew Reminder/Tomorrow Nite @ Spitz Live Show! Kimberley Rew will be opening for Spoon at Spitz, Commercial Street, London on 29th November SOMEBODY attend this ... do it for Marky, eh? And if you do so graciously oblige, TAKE PICTURES, RECORD, MAKE SOME MENTAL NOTES AND JOT EM DOWN SOON AS YA GET HOME ...why am I shouting!? Thanks ...m http://www.mitchworldusa.net/ Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 14:16:44 -0800 (PST) From: drew Subject: coldplay and momus James: I've only heard the new Coldplay once but it seemed awfully boring to me. The last one was not exactly chockablock with thrills 'n' chills, but at least the tunes were somewhat memorable. Aaron: what you say about Momus is ironic given that I can't seem to see your name these days without getting Aaron Mandel loves to read about the scandal Of the artist Formerly known As Nixon stuck in my head (that may not even be how it goes, but that's what sticks). Stars Forever, indeed! - -- drew at stormgreen dot com http://www.stormgreen.com/~drew/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 17:12:37 -0800 From: "Michael E. Kupietz, wearing a pointy hat" Subject: An introduction to time signatures for the non-musician Hi, I have some time to kill and some extra beers so I thought I would write a brief overview of the concept of time signature in response to some of the questions that arose recently from non-musicians. PART 1: A Young Person's Guide To Common Time Signatures, and what they mean in real life Ok. When you listen to a song, it has a beat. This is what you tap your feet to, or maybe tap your fingers on a desk. The most common beat in rock and roll might be written something like this. "boom-boom-BOMP-bum, boom-boom-BOMP-bum, boom-boom-BOMP-bum". Tap your fingers to the the rhythm of the music in "Jet Airliner" by Steve Miller, or listen the drum beat of "Back In The USSR" or the title track of "Sgt. Peppers". There is an especially clear example at the beginning of "Freedom Of Choice" by Devo. It drives "Paranoid" by Sabbath. It's a very common rhythm. This beat is in "4/4 time". In this email, I am only going to discuss what the first number in a time signature means - 3/4, 4/4, 5/4 - because what the the numbers after the slash mean is less audible and more technical in nature. Sometimes in conversation, a song is referred to as simply "in 3" or "in 4", dispensing with the second number entirely. (Note that throughout this email I use CAPS to indicate words or beats which are emphasized, or slightly louder or stronger than the rest. Also, my choices of "boom" or "bum" etc. are completely arbitrary and simply indicate my own interpretation of the sound. I could have written "...BOMP-boom" instead of "...BOMP-bum" above but I just think it's a less clear reproduction of the subjective feel of the beat.) "boom-boom-BOMP-bum, boom-boom-BOMP-bum, boom-boom-BOMP-bum" is in 4/4. This is because the base rhythm has four beats - boom, boom, BOMP, then bum. Tapping your foot along with it, you tap four times before the basic "boom-boom-BOMP-bum" rhythm repeats itself. An example of a song where a vocal line follows the 4/4 rhythm is "I Am The Walrus": "I-am-he-as-YOU-are-he-as-YOU-are-me-as-WE-are-all-to-GETH-er..." Now in 'Walrus' it's not exactly the same pattern of beats, it's more "BOMP-bum-bum-bum" instead of "boom-boom-BOMP-bum". But that doesn't matter. It's the length, the number of beats in a repetition we're concerned with, not which one of those beats happens to be the strong one. Now, songs in 3/4 follow the same scheme. They are formed of patterns that repeat every three beats. For instance, the classic examples of 3/4 rhythm are a waltz, "dum-DUM-DUM-dum-DUM-DUM", or the "OOM-pa-pa" rhythm of German drinking music: "OOM-pah-pah-OOM-pah-pah-THAT'S-how-it-GOES-pah-pah". Some pop music examples: "Lucy In The Sky", as someone suggested: "PIC-ture-your-SELF-on-a-BOAT-on-a-..." "SUD-den-ly-SOME-one-is-THERE-by-the...". Or Piano Man: "SING-us-a-SONG-you're-the-PYAN-o-man". Or especially, Manic Depression: "MAN-ic-de-PRESS-ion-is-CRUSH-ing-my-..." "MU-sic-sweet-MU-sic-i-WISH-i-could..." The rhythmic patters of these songs are all 3 beats to a repetition. "I Am The Walrus" is not in 3/4 because it does not go "I-am-he-AS-you-are-HE-as-you-ARE-me-and-WE-are-all-TO-geth-er" Now, I'm going to make a small side excursion. You might notice that in many of the examples, I trailed off "..." in the middle of a line. That's because I only wanted to show sections of lyrics where all the words fall one syllable to a beat. Actually, there doesn't need to be one syllable to a beat, you could squeeze two syllables into the space of one beat, or you could have a beat go by with nothing at all in the vocal line. A longer excerpt of "Lucy" might read "PIC-ture-your-SELF-on-a-BOAT-on-a-RIVer-[nil]-with-TAN-ger-ine-TREES-[nil]-and-MARSH-mal-low-SKIES-[nil]-[nil]".The [nil] is a beat, you tap your foot there, even though there's no sung word on that beat. A word could potentially go there if John Lennon rose from the dead and began revising the song - he could change "TAN-ger-in-TREES-[nil]-and-MARSH-mal-low" to "TAN-ger-in-TREES-un-der-MARSH-mal-low" and it would work just fine. Also, the two syllables of "RIVer" in this longer excerpt are squeezed into the same beat, sung at twice the speed of the other syllables... you'd be singing it slightly wrong if you sang "SELF-on-a-BOAT-on-a-RIV-er-with", where the three syllables of "river with" fall as evenly timed as the three syllables of "boat on a". Tap your foot along with the song and you'll see what I mean. BUT: Those variations don't matter. The rhythm of the song goes "DANT-dah-dah-DANT-dah-dah", all the way through. Three beats to a repetition = 3/4 time. I am only even complicating my explanation with this side excursion is because it's damn near impossible to think of songs where every single syllable of the lyrics always falls on a beat and every beat has a sung syllable on it. With the understanding of the above variations, you may even be able to see how "I Often Dream Of Trains" is in 3/4: "OFT-[nil]-ten-DREAM-[nil]-of-TRAINS-[nil]-when-I'M-[nil]-a-LONE-[nil]-[nil]", even though the melody doesn't go "DAH-dah-dah" itself, it generally goes "DAH-pause-dah". The song as a whole still does the repeating rhythmic pattern of 3 beats. (I left out the 'i' before 'often' because it's easier to grasp the pattern if you start on a strong beat.) If you have trouble imagining any of these examples, try tapping your desk in a slow, constant, even rhythm - "tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap" - and reciting the lyric examples along with it, one hyphenated phrase per tap, saying aloud: "i OFT nil ten DREAM nil of TRAINS nil when I'M nil a LONE nil nil". Recite it evenly, without any attempt at emphasis, one syllable per tap, and you should hear what I mean. OK. 2/4 time is marching music: "BOOMP-bah-BOOMP-bah-BOOMP-bah-BOOMP-bah". Only two beats to the pattern. Marching bands do it all the time. I'm sure it's been used in rock but I can't think of an example. Laibach has probably done it. 5/4 is heard occasionally on the radio: the already mentioned "Living In The Past" by Jethro Tull, and the surprisingly not yet mentioned "Good Morning, Good Morning" on Sgt. Pepper (what a great album for these things.) If you can pick out the repetitions of 5 beats in either of these songs, you have an excellent ear - there would be plenty of both "[nil]" and 'squeezed' extra syllables if I were to try and illustrate these songs using lyrical phrases. Another famous example also already mentioned is Brubeck's "Take 5", which has no lyrics whatsoever, but the 5 beat repetition exists nonetheless. So 5 is a but more ephemeral. PART II: Something in discussing time signature which musicians take for granted implicitly, but that non-musicians do not know. There's a shorthand involved with time signatures, particularly the 2/4, 3/4 and 4/4. Each of those time signatures is frequently (although not always) associated with certain types of music, which I have alluded to. 2/4 suggests marching music. 3/4 generally suggests waltz, German oom-pa bands or circus music. 4/4 is most rock, folk, and ALL hip-hop AFAIK. This is a vast generalization, of course (except for the hip-hop comment); rock music occurs in all of the above and more, but I'm pretty certain, for instance, that there are few or no heavy metal tunes in 3/4. It's generally associated with music that's too perky and chirpy. Even "Piano Man" has that slight circus feel to it. This is why it's such a gas that Hendrix pulled off a rockin' tune in 3/4, without a hint of irony, with "Manic Depression". So there's a bit of a shorthand. Time signature is not just a technical thing, there's a whole school of associations that goes with certain time signatures in the musical mind, at least with regard to the 2/4, 3/4, and 4/4 time signatures that comprise the vast majority of western music. 5/4 is a little more vague; there's not really enough popular music written in 5/4 - and certainly no "cliche'd" 5/4 beats lodged in the collective unconscious - for most people to have a strong association with it. Although there are some strange people out there. (Just kidding, James.) So when we discuss time signature, it's a "loaded" issue in a way, with musico-cultural associations at times, and once you become aware of it, it's a fundamental aspect of how you hear. Slow or moody songs in 3/4 like "Lucy" or IODOT are beautiful in a certain unique sort of way, because most ballads are in 4/4, and doing a good one in 3/4 tickles the musical ear on a certain, perhaps even subconscious, level. And a flat-out rocker like "Back In The USSR" is in four - "FLEW-in-from-mi-AM-i-beach-b-O-a-[nil]-[nil]-C-[nil]-[nil]-[nil]-DID-n't-get-to-SLEEP-last-[nil]-[nil]-NIGHT-[nil]-[nil]-[nil]" - - because it HAS to be, because flat-out "good old-fashioned rock'n'roll" is in four. It doesn't sound like that, doesn't suggest that "beach boys"-type vibe, if it isn't. (Of course, again, these are generalities, I'm sure there are beach boys tunes in other time signatures. But not ones with the "classic" rock sound that "USSR" alludes to.) A heavy metal tune in 2 or 3 would get kudos in my book slightly higher than your generic 4/4 metal or even your highfalutin' 13/8 prog-metal, because technical issues aside, coming up with a metal tune in 2 or 3 is such a goofy idea to begin with. (I'm sure if such a song exists, somebody on this list will point it out.) This is also why I am so gassed by "Strawberry Fields Forever", because while a lot of songs which either change time signature during instrumental breaks, or have an unusual time signature all the way through, it's unusual to have a pretty song that stays in 4/4 most of the time but shifts and changes while the melody is still underway without seeming jarring or odd... if you don't listen for it, you won't even know it's there. I have no idea how you come up with that kind of stuff, and it increases my appreciation for the song. And it's at this point that I feel the technical aspects of music theory break down and reveal their limitations. To view Strawberry fields as going "4/4, 4/4/, 2/4, 4/4, 4/4, 6/8" is missing the point... that's a contrivance, and it exists solely on an intellectual level. The song goes how it goes, it wasn't created within that system, it's not weird, it just is what it is. It's like trying to fill the round hole of John Lennon with the square peg of objective rationale. (ouch!) But if you understand everything I've written here, you can still hear old songs in new ways, and find commonalities between popular musics that you hadn't heard before, even solely within the familiar 3/4 and 4/4 paradigm. Then, you can reexamine Rush for a while and get a feel for music in 7/4 (or 7/8 most likely, though that's beyond the scope of this discussion.) Soon you're tappin' away to your Zappa records in 13/8, then you're throwin' on Three Of A Perfect Pair and flailing your hands away in 21/8, and then your head explodes. Mike - -- ======== We need love, expression, and truth. We must not allow ourselves to believe that we can fill the round hole of our spirit with the square peg of objective rationale. - Paul Eppinger At non effugies meos iambos - Gaius Valerius Catallus ("...but you won't get away from my poems.") ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:33:33 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: coldplay and momus On Thu, 28 Nov 2002, drew wrote: > Aaron: what you say about Momus is ironic given that I can't > seem to see your name these days without getting > > Aaron > Mandel loves to read about the scandal > Of the artist > Formerly known > As Nixon > > stuck in my head Yeah, I know. I was optimistic after Ping Pong! But I forgot to tell him how to pronounce my name, so he got it wrong and I am sort of sheepish about the whole thing, though not ashamed. a ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 11:00:44 +0000 (GMT) From: Michael R Godwin Subject: Re: An introduction to time signatures for the non-musician On Thu, 28 Nov 2002, Michael E. Kupietz, wearing a pointy hat wrote: > OK. 2/4 time is marching music: "BOOMP-bah-BOOMP-bah-BOOMP-bah-BOOMP-bah". > Only two beats to the pattern. Marching bands do it all the time. I'm sure > it's been used in rock but I can't think of an example. It's ubiquitous in country rock. I first became aware that it was different from 4/4 when I tried to rehearse Bob Dylan's "Tell me mama" in a band in - ooh - 1974 - and the rhythm section couldn't do it. They were fine on the Chuck Berry 4/4 ("Roll over Beethoven", "Nadine" etc) but they they couldn't snap into the two beat at all. IMHO every one of those yellow Sun records from Nashville is in 2/4 (well, "Blue Moon of Kentucky","That's alright mama", and "Wear my ring around your neck" are, anyway). Eddie Cochran's original "Cut across Shorty" is in 2/4, but the Rod Stewart version has been smoothed out into 4/4, I believe. They way I see it, if you can do an alternating bass line to it (like your oom-pah example) it's in 2/4. Disagreements welcomed. - - Mike Godwin, wearing a pair of slippers PS And there is a strain of Europop which is based on German march time. Cliff Richard's "Congratulations" is an awful warning here. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 06:26:51 -0800 (PST) From: Perry Amberson Subject: Re: An introduction to time signatures for the non-musician Very useful information, even for the semi-non-musician's among us (i.e. the self-taught ones with very little formal training like me). I probably already knew most of that, but it was nice to see it laid out so clearly. While I've got the floor, let me put a plug in for my favorite "heavy metal waltz" (though "Manic Depression" is a close second) "I Dig a Pony." - --Perry _____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 06:30:19 -0800 (PST) From: Perry Amberson Subject: Re: An introduction to time signatures for the non-musician Oops! That's "semi-non-musicians." I hate the misplaced apostrophe with a passion, but I guess early morning sluggishness got the best of me. - --Perry ______________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 15:01:53 +0000 From: "Maurer Rose, Inverse Nome" Subject: Post-Turkey(or veg substitute) Stress Disorder Small town<>Big City I was raised in the center of the center of the world, e.g. NYC. I was also raised to consider myself a superior being because of it --more sophisticated, tougher, smarter and just plain, you know, superior. I saw college(in another smaller city) as exile. But the I went and fell and love with a guy from Philly. Who wanted to live in an urban village on the outskirts of town. And I like it. I like seeing people I know when I do errands. I like that my community isnt defined by those just like me whom I choose to go to parties with. I like that theres a spread of classes here and some spread of races. Now this isnt a small town(and I can see how that could be horribly clasutrophobic.) There are cultural resources within a short train or car ride. I work in the city. But there is also a community with a 4th of July parade that consists of kids on decorated bikes, scooters or in strollers, a dog run park where people are identified by their animals, where your crazy people outside the 7/11 have names and histories, a local paper that makes boulders out of pebbles overwhich everyone gets overexcited, some small businesses run by the same family for generations, really big trees, a walkable village for doing errands, etc. Now sometimes its too much Hobbitown for someone whose half elf, but sometimes its just pretty close to perfection. I dont want to move back to NYC, or even Center City Philly. I like the balance I get here. But then, Im very good at being rude to peopler who offend or bore me. Beyond cordialities, I dont tend to be troubled by those I have no patience for. So Im not advocating small towns, but I am less than enthused over the anonyminity of big cities. I remember as a kid feeling isolated, and not liking it much. Perhaps its all really just a matter of temparment. - --------------------- I heard Rhett Miller on a local radio station this morning. I could clearly hear the Robyn/Edgyptians/ Beatles influence but I could also hear how Miller had mutated it. It seemed rougher and Americanzied(not sure what I mean by that but I know mean something;-) I see why people like his stuff, its infectious. - ------------------- Grunge: subset Vender Rex: >Henry Rollins likens it to a cow imitation That is perfect. Pearl Jam I have heard ont he radio but I couldnt seem to warm up to it. Now I can explain why:-) - -------------------- I take hope from the fact that sports fans Miles and James seem to find the hectoring on sports talk radio grating too. - ---------------------- James: "Here comes the sun" mucks around all over the place with changing signatures.: Any chance you'd explicate? I find this all interesting. I had enough music in school to know what 4/4 is, and to know, in theory, what say, 5/4 or any other sig is, but having someone explain the time changes on songs I love and can play in my mind fleshes out the theory, I can hear it and feel it then. - ------------------------ Miles: >But when the rhymes are smart and the samples are happening (lots of P.E., Digital Underground, Tribe Called Quest, De La >Soul, and lots more), it doesn't feel as tuneless and abrasive to me. Thats probobly not what I hear rumbling out of passing cars' stereos, my major and probobly not propriatious exposure to the genre. (The African Americans I know all listen to jazz.) - ----------------------- Kay, working _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 16:47:33 +0000 From: "Maurer Rose, Inverse Nome" Subject: Re:An introduction to time signatures for the non-musician Mike in a Pointy Hat: You are a prince among men and a gentleman among Fegs, not to mention a scholar. Thank you, that was wonderful. Ive always fallen over the stubling block of what the bottom number means in terms of the top As I was reading your post, I found it I kept translating what you said about beats into poetry meters. Which answered my own question a tad about inherent mood, etc. I like the fact that you can use nil beats in songs, thats where the music gives you more freedom within your meter(time sig) than youd get in poetry. Its interesting that 3/4 suggests "perky" walzs in music because theres a prejuidice in poetry thats its only right for comic verse. Different, but close perceptions. >"Lucy" or IODOT are beautiful in a certain unique sort of way, because >mostballads are in 4/4, and doing a good one in 3/4 tickles the musical ear > on a certain, perhaps even subconscious, level. Right, I very much agree with that. Thanks, your explanation has helped me make a connection to something Ive always gotten very het up about-- significance of sound in poetry, both timing and vowel sounds. Anyway, now Ive -really- got alot to think about. Im not even listening to Zappa and my head is exploding:-) Kay _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 12:27:36 -0500 From: dances with virgos Subject: Fwd: DUETS WITH DENI - This Friday - 11/29 - KIMBERLEY REW >Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 20:33:07 -0800 >From: "Deni Bonet" >To: woj@smoe.org >Subject: DUETS WITH DENI - This Friday - 11/29 - KIMBERLEY REW > >DUETS WITH DENI >Hosted by DENI BONET >EVERY FRIDAY NIGHT at 12:30 - HALF PAST MIDNIGHT >Time Warner Cable - Channel 56 >RCN Cable - Channel 108 >For now, only in Manhattan. BUT... Streamed over the Internet at: >www.mnn.org Click channel 56 > >Hey there! This Friday night, Nov. 29th I am happy to bring you a very >special show. My guest on DUETS WITH DENI this week will be KIMBERLEY REW. >Kimberley is a member of The Soft Boys, (along with Robyn Hitchcock). He >was also a founding member of Katrina & The Waves, (where he wrote WALKING >ON SUNSHINE). This is one show you wont want to miss! >(www.thesoftboys.com) and also (www.kimberleyrew.com) > >Please check out (www.denibonet.com) for all the latest news and updates >AND WHILE YOU ARE THERE, CHECK OUT THE NEWEST STREAMING VIDEO CLIPS OF THE >SHOW! Weve just posted a new song from the Robyn Hitchcock show that >aired last week. > >Next week, Dec. 6, we will be rebroadcasting a very special episode with >RICHARD BARONE. (www.richardbarone.com) > >Thanks for all of the kind emails and letters. Im having a blast putting >on this show, and I hope you are all enjoying it as much as we are! Please >feel free to write and tell me what you think. Id love to hear from you. >Hope you all had a great Thanksgiving. I'm feeling REALLY full, and VERY >thankful! >Love, >Deni >deni@denibonet.com > > >................................................................ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 12:51:26 -0500 From: "Maximilian Lang" Subject: Yo La Tengo Hi, Anyone else going to tomorrows Yo La Tengo show? Some of us are getting together for dinner beforehand. If you are interested please contact me. Thanks, Max _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 13:30:30 -0500 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: reap Dave Ray, 59. From : "As young Bobby Zimmerman, Dylan had listened to records at Ray's house and traveled in the same circles." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 13:01:32 -0800 From: "Michael E. Kupietz, wearing a pointy hat" Subject: Re: An introduction to time signatures for the non-musician At 11:00 AM +0000 11/29/02, Michael R Godwin propounded thusly: >[2/4 time] It's ubiquitous in country rock. I first became aware that it >was >different from 4/4 when I tried to rehearse Bob Dylan's "Tell me mama" in >a band in - ooh - 1974 - and the rhythm section couldn't do it. They were >fine on the Chuck Berry 4/4 I had actually thought of that Dylan song I can't remember the real name of which goes "Everybody must get stoned". It's in 2, but I decided not to use it as an example because it's a swing rhythm, not straight 2. >They way I see it, if you can do an alternating bass line to it (like your >oom-pah example) it's in 2/4. After I sent the email, I remembered that character from Saturday Night Live who used to say "Gimme a C, a bouncy C!" and the piano player would launch into the archtype vamp with the alternating bassline in 2. At 4:47 PM +0000 11/29/02, Maurer Rose, Inverse Nome propounded thusly: >You are a prince among men and a gentleman among Fegs, not to mention a >scholar. [blush]! >As I was >reading your post, I found it I kept translating what you said about beats >into poetry meters. Which answered my own question a tad about inherent >mood, etc. That's extremely interesting, and makes a lot of sense. Inciedentally, regard thise "nil" beats and stuff - I was trying to keep things as close to plain english as possible, and present greatest possible simplification in the examples, etc. The "nil" thing was just what I came up with on the spot to represent what would more properly be called a "rest" I suppose. I figured "nil" was the best single-paragraph word to describe "nothing" in plain english, it's not an actual musical term. > I like the fact that you can use nil beats in songs, thats where >the music gives you more freedom within your meter(time sig) than youd get >in poetry. I think that's the difference between "meter" and "rhythm". Going back to "I Often Dream Of Trains", if you just recite the words "I often dream of trains when I'm alone" it has a meter (of 2, sort of), but if you say the words as they are sung, with the rests, "I oft ten dream of trains when I'm alone",you're are saying them in a certain rhythm . >Thanks, your explanation has helped me make a connection to something Ive >always gotten very het up about-- significance of sound in poetry, both >timing and vowel sounds. Anyway, now Ive -really- got alot to think about. Watch it, you might find yourself crossing the line between "poet" and "spoken word artist"... or even "performance artist"! [shudder] - -- ======== We need love, expression, and truth. We must not allow ourselves to believe that we can fill the round hole of our spirit with the square peg of objective rationale. - Paul Eppinger At non effugies meos iambos - Gaius Valerius Catallus ("...but you won't get away from my poems.") ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V11 #404 ********************************