From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V11 #394 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Friday, November 22 2002 Volume 11 : Number 394 Today's Subjects: ----------------- The '90: when the levee broke ["Rex.Broome" ] Subject: Re: those fabulous eighties ["The Birdpoo" ] top 100 of the 90s [drew ] Re: those fabulous eighties [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: New Order boot... [Aaron Mandel ] fuel [drew ] RE: top 100 of the 90s ["Bachman, Michael" ] Re: Pitchfork '90s list [Ken Weingold ] Token entries, epic rock ["Rex.Broome" ] Take that, Feg! ["Montauk Daisy" ] Another knotty consolidation [Eb ] Quailmaniax returns! [Miles Goosens ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:31:36 -0800 From: "Rex.Broome" Subject: The '90: when the levee broke Miles: >>There was a point in the mid-'90s where People Who Previously Listened To the >>Same Stuff As Me started buying GbV, Stereolab, Elliott Smith, Pavement, and >>Built To Spill. This was exactly the same point where I began feeling very, very >>old because I did not like, and still do not like, any of these artists That's interesting. I like all but two of those artists but I experienced the same thing with the "next batch" of '90's trendiness (Belle & Sebastian, Beta Band, and I'd stick Eliot Smith and most Radiohead-derivatives in here) about three years later... which I think is about the difference between our ages, Miles? - -Rex, who also got married and finally started to weigh more that 130 pounds at the same time and wonders if there's a correlation... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:12:29 -0800 From: "Jason R. Thornton" Subject: Re: New Order boot... > > > oh! me, me! this sounds delicious. > > > > Me too! Please do put it up. > >Sure. Anyone have any server space with good speed? My home system >only has an up of about 15 k/sec. At Ken's request, here y'all go: http://ugr8.ucsd.edu/jasonweb/norder/ Download like mad... I've seen New Order twice, if you're wondering, and Revenge and Electronic once each. I saw Sigur Ros last night. I've been trying to reconstruct my concert going experience from memory. I think that concert makes the total somewhere in the mid-200s. And only one of those was Journey. At least the tickets were comped. Damn, what I won't sometimes put up with for a "significant other." - --Jason "Only the few know the sweetness of the twisted apples." - Sherwood Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 20:23:35 -0000 From: "The Birdpoo" Subject: Subject: Re: those fabulous eighties I think that the Pitchfork list is rather heavily weighted towards the US's experience of the decade, especially since it completely omits Orange Juice's "You Can't Hide Your Love Forever". This should be in the top 10! No, really, it should. It set the tone for the UK "indie" sound of the early 80s and so was massively influential - Edwyn Collins had a quiff long before Morrissey poked his head out of the bedroom window. It still delights every time I hear it. Good to see Television Personalities on that chart though. It's quite reasonable to say that without Dan Treacy, there would have been no Creation Records. Keg http://www.btinterent.com/~birdpoo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:30:36 -0800 (PST) From: drew Subject: that's what the world is today > From: Ken Weingold > > Incidentally, I have a really good New Order bootleg from 1985 on > vinyl that I tranferred to CD and then to MP3. IMO it sounds > fantastic. If anyone wants, I can put it somewhere. *raises hand* > Most noteable quote from Bernie on Lonesome Tonight: "You reached out > in your sleep and you felt my big fat cock." Heh...dreams really do never end, do they, Sumner? > From: The Great Quail > > I rescind my previous comment about agreeing with you musically. Well, we knew that, didn't we? :) I remembered that you were happy with Bloodflowers; I'm sorry I wasn't. I really wanted to be. I like your best-of-90s list even though I would only consider a few of them (OK Computer, Homogenic, Boys for Pele) for mine (you already know my negative feelings about U2 & Neutral Milk Hotel, and boy howdy do I hate Pearl Jam). > From: "Eclipse Tuliphead" > > > From: drew > > > Oh, by the way, I forgot to mention that Weezer easily make my > > list of annoying bands. Lordy, I hate that crew. > > Drew, i could kiss you for this. agreed, wholeheartedly. Hmmm, maybe I should hate Weezer publicly more often! ;) > From: Miles Goosens > > Speaking of U2, what I perceive as a common thread in Quail's taste in > music and film is a strong desire for *connectedness* and *belonging.* That's still kind of a snobbish way to put it. :) I'd just say he's not afraid of what's mainstream. The way I thought you were going to go was to suggest that he likes warm, optimistic artists for the most part (Nick Cave being one obvious hole in that theory :)). It's actually more interesting sometimes to analyze other people's tastes in music. Also keep in mind that while his literary tastes are not exactly esoteric, they are still challenging works about as far from "populist" as you can get. I'll post separately about that best-of-90s list. I bet you're all on tenterhooks, whatever those are. - -- drew at stormgreen dot com http://www.stormgreen.com/~drew/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:56:52 -0800 (PST) From: drew Subject: top 100 of the 90s I'm shocked to report that unless I miscounted I own only 31 of the top 90s albums, or 36 if you count burned CDs I haven't bought yet (in some cases, though, I never will). That's just about exactly the same number of 80s albums I had. This is doubly bizarre because I didn't buy a CD player until 1992 and didn't have a significant amount of disposable cash coming in until 1996. I guess just as I was crippled in the 80s by my lack of interest in the Fall, I was crippled in the 90s by my lack of interest in Built to Spill, Elliot Smith, Pavement, and emo. I'm afraid the accusation of "whiteboy indie rock" is even more appropriate here. I can't even recall offhand any significant hip-hop or rap inclusions besides the Beasties. But really, face it, Pitchfork is about indie rock. It just is. I love Loveless and all but I think OK Computer deserved the top slot. It's a hard album to overpraise. The apologies for including Tori Amos are pretty funny and also pretty revealing. These guys make no pretense of objectivity. Needless to say they missed a whole shitload of great albums; I couldn't begin to list them all. - -- drew at stormgreen dot com http://www.stormgreen.com/~drew/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 14:57:51 -0600 From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: those fabulous eighties Quoting Michael R Godwin : > WRT the 1980s, I think Bath University must have been in a different > universe from the people whose lists I've been reading. All that my > postgrad pals played was (1) FGTH (incessantly, to the point of screaming > monotony) Uh, "Fuck Goddamned Tory Hathead"? "Forget God - Toot Horns"? "Fred Gordon, the Hegemon"? Or maybe just an abbreviation for an archaic form of third person verb? "He feggeth unto me, and was forgiven"? - --Jeff, who can't figure out who "TFF" is either. J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html :: PLEASE! You are sending cheese information to me. I don't want it. :: I have no goats or cows or any other milk producing animal! :: --"raus" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:33:55 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: New Order boot... On Fri, 22 Nov 2002, Jason R. Thornton wrote: > http://ugr8.ucsd.edu/jasonweb/norder/ The web says this show is 6 December 85 at London Polytechnic, by the way. Thanks, Jason and Ken! a ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:35:54 -0800 (PST) From: drew Subject: fuel > From: Miles Goosens > > But Sugar -- oh man. I can't even remember a single song title or melody, I was surprised that I actually liked File Under Easy Listening. I can easily remember the songs (maybe not the exact titles) and melodies from it, and I've only listened to it a handful of times. "Company Book," "Your Favorite Thing," "Panama City Hotel," "Gee Angel"...not deathless stuff, maybe, and not up to the standard of Husker Du (I assume...not one of my favorite bands), but not terrible. > From: Michael R Godwin > ["Relax" and "Two Tribes"] > which had those revolting loathesome Trevor Horn over-productions (I still > have no idea how anyone can hear this kind of thing without getting a > headache) The production was the best part. :) > I agree with all the people who said that "East Side Story" is first > rate, specially "Tempted". How many other lyrics include a baggage > carousel? "I'm So Worried" by Monty Python mentions baggage retrieval... > From: Ken Weingold > > Funny you mention it. I get a lot of dirty look for this, but I do > tend to prefer early New Order to Joy Division. I love Joy Division, > even bought the box set, but don't listen to them nearly as much as > New Order. Well, Joy Division is not exactly easy listening. You can put on New Order pretty much anytime, but you have to be prepared for Joy Division. So this makes perfect sense to me. And they really, really are two different bands in the end, with very different artistic goals. Example: I'd never heard "World In Motion" before yesterday and now I wish I'd stayed ignorant. > From: "Rex.Broome" > > Mine, too, although I'm not totally sure why. Recently because of Cuomos' > abominable attitude; don't care if it physiological, the guy's a dick. Physiological? How so? > From: The Great Quail > > Er, thanks. I'm glad that I have your seal of legitimacy! ;) Though again, I > think that some people around here, you perhaps included, tend to shut > yourself off from things if they have the whiff of popularity, and that > seems like a limitation to me. I'm sure you weren't including me, but I have two Spice Girls albums, all three Garbage records, the popular Sixpence None the Richer album, four or five Duran CDs, two Shawn Colvin records, a burn of Whoa, Nelly!....... - -- drew at stormgreen dot com http://www.stormgreen.com/~drew/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:37:03 -0500 From: "Bachman, Michael" Subject: RE: top 100 of the 90s Drew wrote: >I'm shocked to report that unless I miscounted I own >only 31 of the top 90s albums, or 36 if you count burned >CDs I haven't bought yet (in some cases, though, I never Bingo! I have 31 as well. I agree that a lot was missed. Missing: Girlfriend, 0898, Car Wheels on a Gravel Road, Songs for Drella and Amplified Heart are just a few that should have made it. Michael PS I fianlly picked up John Cale's Fear. I like it just as much as Paris 1919, and that's saying a lot because I love 1919. Andalucia from 1919 is still my favorite song though. I'll probably get Helen of Troy next. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:38:03 -0500 From: Ken Weingold Subject: Re: New Order boot... On Fri, Nov 22, 2002, Aaron Mandel wrote: > On Fri, 22 Nov 2002, Jason R. Thornton wrote: > > > http://ugr8.ucsd.edu/jasonweb/norder/ > > The web says this show is 6 December 85 at London Polytechnic, by the way. > Thanks, Jason and Ken! Yes, it is. She's Lost Control is from the 7th or 8th I think. - -Ken ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:45:14 -0500 From: Ken Weingold Subject: Re: Pitchfork '90s list On Fri, Nov 22, 2002, Miles Goosens wrote: > But Sugar -- oh man. I can't even remember a single song title or > melody, and I own all of their albums. It was like the sprawling > Husker Du mess o'sound suddenly got put through the mill and came > out as a bland, undifferentiated mass. The tunes weren't as > tuneful, the noise wasn't as noisy. Probably my biggest > disappointment of the '90s, Sugar. I love Sugar. I really do. I think there is some really awesome stuff there. Beaster is an intense bridge, where Come Around is the up ramp to it, and it just keeps you up there until Walking Away brings you back down. What a ride. And that scream in the beginning of Judas Cradle is once of those that can send a chill down my spine. - -Ken ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:49:07 -0800 From: "Rex.Broome" Subject: Token entries, epic rock Drew: >>I'm with you on Monster, by the way -- hated it at first, >>and then it became one of my favorite REM albums. Hmmm. I liked it at first, then it started to seem really patchy, and I finally decided it's three thematic EP's welded together by fate. The first one is a good pop record with creepy undertons. The third one is a good just plain creepy record, the REM equivalent to "Beaster". The one in the middle just sucks royal. >>I have yet to hear the black REM. Cynically: Hootie & the Blowfish. Optimistically: The Negro Problem Admittedly both have black frontmen and largely white backup musicians, but both bands did spring to mind upon hearing that phrase. _____ The rap discs on the Pitchfork '80's list are almost exactly the ones I own. I think there's a non-accusatory explanation for that. A lot of white kids were interested in hip-hop in the '80's & early '90's, and, even at the time, those were the discs you were directed to. They were also the albums that spoke to the concerns of white college kids-- politics, social ills, gettin' high, etc. They reflect some common ground with the indie rock of that era. (You can see the same thing today when you look at the rock artist with whom hip-hoppers tend to collaborate: genrally nu-metal bands who share the concerns of getting laid, being famous, having too much money, and still whining about it.) But really, let's say you're interested in, but inexperienced with, jazz, or whatever. What do you do? Read up and/or ask around for recommendations with people who know their stuff. You end up with Bitches Brew and A Love Supreme-- even I know that. That's how we all ended up with those hip-hop albums, or any number of other "token" albums from outside our primary genres. (BTW most of the jazz fanatics I know are as white as the day is long.) That said, I doubt the list authors spend much time listening to vintage hip-hop these days. _______ Quail: >>I like epics. It's true, whether the Ring cycle, Joyce and Pynchon, Titanic, or the >>epic emotions of Bono. And here's another maybe-inconsistency in my personal tastes. I love literary epics, too (lots of the same writers as Quail). And dense, detailed, long-ass movies. Generally anything that requires an extended attention span is highly beguiling to me. Except pop songs. As I've mentioned I dislike big rock shows and prefer small venues, bars and clubs, the smaller the better... and epics just don't play as well there, in what, to me, is r'n'r's native environment. The "epic text" to me is, if anything, the album itself, ideally with the songs as concise, self-contained chapters or thematically related sketches/short stories. It's an interesting divergence, eh? So how to account for the presence among my favorite artists of Neil Young, Tom Verlaine, Sonic Youth, and (now that I've outed myself) the Church, none of them strangers to the 10-minute-plus extravaganza? Well, at a guess, those artists still adhere to basic, organic forms and idiosyncratic, personal visions even as they stretch out an distort the idioms of basic rock. Their epics are more like rambling dreams than dissertations or oratory. I dunno. I've spent probably more time trying to suss this inconsistency in my own tastes than I probably should have. Or maybe I'm a big fat hypocrite! - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 21:55:41 +0000 From: "Montauk Daisy" Subject: Take that, Feg! FF: >There's some history here: I've gotten very tired of certain hipsters ... >whose record collection is exactly as white >and indie->rock as mine >suddenly declaring their undying love for Fela Anikulapo Kuti((or African >American styles "of the last 30 years")) in crowds where that's more hip to >do - I went through >college >w/a zillion of those. Thats one of the funniest bits Ive read in ages. Kudos. Theres plenty of African American musical genres this indie rock/folk/60ish pop-rock(vs pet-rock) woman would happily lug to her desert island retreat, but I can tell you, rap wouldnt be one of them. Every morning my husband listens to sports radio. Have you ever listened to sports radio? Its basic premise is guys yelling at each other. Not talking, yelling. And calling each other idiots. I'm not exagerating. It is constant, stupid male bellowing. And it sets my teeth on edge. My husband can happily listen for hours, I swear he finds it soothing. Within 5 minutes I start hyperventelating. For me rap and hip hop, whether done by black or white artists is like paying to listen to sports radio. The only difference is the guys yell in rhythem. Oh where oh where did the music go, oh where oh where can it be? I realize there are plenty of people whose taste I respect who like this form of music. Im not writing this so that the virtues of rap can be pointed out to me. Im know they exist even thou I am tempermentally disinclined to them. But the barrage of noise in rap is too much like the things I try to avoid in this world: loud, rude crowds, the assults of casinos and arcades, vast parties where no one knows each other, snarled, blaring traffic. Yes, this is our world and all the above needs to be part of our culture. Part of our culture, not all of it. A part within a whole. Luckily, harmony ruins a bloody good racket ... - --------------- Ken, those New Order MP3s look mighty tempting ... - ------------- Eclipse, sounds like youve got my sort of job;-) - ------------- Miles on Quail Studies: >feeling like part of a bigger thing, and I think it helps explain >some of >his populist leanings in music and film. Right and to my mind, thats part of being human. Humans are capable of, and enjoy, solidarity. It can come in many forms. It can be used to great good or great ill. But just because it can be used for ill dosnt mean it should be ignored or denied. Its part of our makeup. I can't begin to express what early Springsteen concerts felt like. It was a total mass(well, we're talking clubs here so a small mass)catharsysis, every marginal kid who felt like a freak affirming their worth. And, short of Nazi Nurenburg rallies, thats worthwhile. - ----------- Miles: >Probably my biggest disappointment of the '90s, Sugar. Grrr. While I also liked Mould's more folky solo stuff, "Copper Blue" hit me just right(hmmm, alright I was also in love with the guy who got it for me.) Anyway --"Hoover Dam" is awesome, and I mean that is the old sense of the word(it fills me with awe.) But then what do I know, I hate rap and loved early Springsteen concerts;-) - ---------- Mike -- Are you thinking of the slide TBone Walker redo/adaptation of "Dust My Baguette"? Or the "Baby do you want to ho" bit of "Home Sweet Chicago"? - ------------ Ross with his set-your-clock-by-it Fri PM post: >But I do like thinking about thousands of young women getting rythmically excited. Hey-- so don't go to any Soft Boys concert then;-) I forget which 60s icon made a pithy and funny comment on this, explaining why he spent so much of his teenage time practicing the guitar, but it was one of them. Or all of them? >But if you put one at the beginning & one at the end, it can be like "We Can Be Together"/ >"Volunteers." Ooh, nice. - -------------- >Rex, who used to use the term "grungy" to refer to the sound made by >Crazy >Horse, Husker Du, and/or the Stooges, :-). Too bad we've lost that usage, it was a good one. BTW--I am ignorant of grunge. It coencided with giving birth and the first 5 years of my daughters life. But what filtered thru of Nirvana I liked, so I figure someday the time will be right to dive headlong in. - -------------- Kay the warm, hipless dork(my thighs attach directly to my abdomen,) who freely admits to spending much of the 80s listening to REM and whose idea of a perfect rucus is loud and intricate and melodic. Oh, and I like The Monkees too. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:58:21 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Another knotty consolidation >http://pitchforkmedia.com/top/90s/ For me: 59 from the 80s list, 52 from the 90s list. And there's probably a few albums on the 90s list which I'll still buy one day. I feel like I'm long delinquent about investigating Tortoise and the Dismemberment Plan, for instance. I suspect I'll enjoy both a lot, if I just take a deep breath and plunk down for some near-blind purchases. >I'd even take the Breeders if it wasn't produced by St. Albini, whose >last great production work came on SURFER ROSA. Albini productions >RID OF ME and IN UTERO I like, but it's *despite* him. It's like his >production work is all about dogma instead of all about getting the >best sound for the artist and the material. Not all Steve Albini productions have "that sound," though. Remember that he has worked with groups like the Auteurs, Low, Bedhead, Mogwai, Nina Nastasia (*excellently* produced, I must say), Shannon Wright.... There are probably more counterexamples, but I'm simply not familiar with a lot of the bands he has produced. My mental reserves come up empty for many of his credits listed on the AllMusic site. He sure f*cked up that Jimmy Page/Robert Plant album, though. >Anyway, [a Tull mailing list] took a subscribership poll as to people's >favorite Tull album, and "A Passion Play" came out on top. Wow...that really surprises me. I would've predicted Thick as a Brick (Aqualung tends to draw a been-there-done-that jadedness from the hardcores), and personally, I enjoy at least six JT albums more than A Passion Play. I guess the poll reflects a serious prog-aesthetic bent, since A Passion Play is arguably the most hardcore "prog" album in Tull's catalog. (Yes, Thick as a Brick is probably my own #1 as well.) >But Sugar -- oh man. I can't even remember a single song title or >melody, and I own all of their albums. It was like the sprawling >Husker Du mess o'sound suddenly got put through the mill and came >out as a bland, undifferentiated mass. The tunes weren't as >tuneful, the noise wasn't as noisy. Probably my biggest >disappointment of the '90s, Sugar. Wow...I think Copper Blue has more consistent melodic catchiness, from beginning to end, than just about any other album I can name out of the last 10-15 years. >* There was one very bass-heavy New Order thing (Blue Monday, I believe) >which was played constantly Few things plunge me into instinctive convulsions like the instrumental prologue of that song. Oh man...please don't even make me think about it. >I finally picked up John Cale's Fear. I like it just as much >as Paris 1919, and that's saying a lot because I love 1919. >I'll probably get Helen of Troy next. I like Fear even better. Never did make up my mind whether I like Helen of Troy. Taped it from someone literally years ago, felt ambivalent/undecided on the first two listens and never got around to playing it again! > the universally panned Tin Machine Never understood why the first Tin Machine album drew such abuse. I think it's mostly a question of the album being really, really overhyped by a shaky label eager to get a payback on their new prize signing. Plus, a lame choice for the single ("Under the Gun"). There are four or five tracks on the first Tin Machine album which are among the very best examples of "classic-style Bowie" found in his last 20 years of work. "Baby Can Dance," "I Can't Read Shit, "Crack City"...I dunno, I'd have to pull out the album to remember the others. (Note: I wrote the previous line *before* I stumbled on a Miles Goosens post which endorsed the exact same tracks.) I wish Bowie hadn't included that pointless "Working Class Hero" cover though, as much as I worship that song in its original form. The album's a bit overlong -- I could probably find an original tune worth cutting, too. Now, on the other hand, the *second* Tin Machine album "sucked all kinds of ass" (to borrow someone's amusing Love & Rockets slag). But it seemed like that one didn't get nearly as much as abuse, purely because by that time, no one really *cared* anymore. Eb ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:05:02 -0600 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Quailmaniax returns! Mr. Quail, I will take your points out of order, putting the most important one first. >I must say, by the way, if this weren't a mailing list -- which means you >don't really know me in person, only my postings on a few subjects -- I >would feel a bit offended at your tone. First of all, by dispensing >legitimacy you assume yourself to have elevated taste. Secondly, your >comment regarding popularity=good is somewhat iffy, for several reasons. >Number one, you shouldn't make such an assumption about me based on so >little data; number two, the data you use is subjective to your own tastes, >and number three, the fact I spend much of my free time writing about >difficult-to-understand postmodern writers would seem to indicate that such >an general assumption would be false anyway. Yes, I like Spielberg; but I >also like Wenders, Herzog, and Jodorowsky. Yes, I like Beethoven and Glass; >I also like Lindberg, Ligeti, and Boulez. And so on. > >But again, seriously, I know you meant no offense, and none was taken. I am >actually a bit flattered that you would spill so much ink trying to figure >my tastes out! I'm very glad to see that last paragraph, and yes, no offense was meant at all. In fact, I hoped the piece was written and understood as a fond piece between -- well, whatever people are who have been on a mailing list together for years (I was here first, so however long you've been here is how long) but haven't met. I wish we could have remedied that in May '99 when Melissa and I visited NYC. Which leads me to a few responses to the first paragraph quoted above: * I thought my "popularity = good" comment, in context, was a qualification, not a condemnation. Sorry if it read differently. * I'm also worried that what I thought was a playful and faux-highfalootin' tone came off as genuine highfalootin' condescension. (And I've just read Drew making the same point, so yeah, it didn't work.) I also thought it was implied that you could condescend right back at me! Apologies for the shortcomings of my writing skills. * So little data? With the reams of stuff you've written here, not to mention your website? (At the risk of my argument losing momentum, I'll stop to qualify and say that "reams" is no veiled insult -- you became pretty much essential to Feg from your first day here, and it's usually a better list when you're posting often and at length. And please continue to do so. Anyway, back to our feature, already in progress.) I certainly wouldn't presume anything in the way of knowing Allen the person, but the Quail? I think any regular reader of fegmaniax knows that bird very well! * I think some Fegs, through volume and memorable contributions, have pretty much become celebs here. You, Eb, Drew of late, Rex then and now... Woj, Bayard... Jeme and Eddie and Nat and James and Kay and Susan and Randi and Mike Runion and more. OK, I'm about to lose my train of thought, but I think what I was wanting to get it when I started this Romper Room namedropping is (1) something about how I "know" these people, even though I've only "met" a few -- I at least know the aspects of them that they chose to present here, and (2) something about how you can participate as much as you like, from lurking to posting a megaton of stuff. And while participating a lot shouldn't entail bad things happening to you, it does make those aspects of you more known, perhaps more than you like or realize, and more likely to transition from discusser to discussed. Which as long as it doesn't turn into an ad hominem bludgeoning is fair play in my book. * It could just be a reaction to what you perceive as snobbiness on the list that you so often defend Dreaded Popular Things here. Maybe the little guys don't need defending, because they're the ones who rule the Feg kingdom, unlike the world beyond the Feg inbox. But on the occasions I remember you listing your very, very favorite rock albums or films, IIRC, they're loaded up with million sellers and big box office bonanzas. I haven't forgotten your toils among the obscure, particularly in literature, but I think that makes it even more worth discussing why the Big Things strike such a chord with you. And not discussing as "look at Quail's peculiar taste" or as laying the groundwork for excommunication, but as an interesting line of inquiry that could provoke really cool discussion about why people like what they like. * I think I also presumed too much about people here remembering or knowing me. I participated *a lot* (or what seemed to me like a lot!) in Feg from when I joined ('94, I think) until around 1997, when I started finding it a lot more difficult to keep up and be as active on the list. I've continued to read the list regularly, which keeps me up on all of you, but I suppose I've become less of a known quantity to everyone else, even though in my mind, I'm thinking that any damn thing I said on the Feg list six years ago is still common knowledge, and that people still remember the stuff I like or don't like. But my taste is out there too (my yearly rock best of's, anyway; I've never compiled similar personal stuff for film or TV, though I'm always happy to post lists of my favorites in these categories), and if anyone wants to analyze it or praise it or knock it, hey, I'm the one that said "here's what I think; what do you think about what I think?" I put it out there; I'll take my lumps. As you have plenty of times before, too. Anyway, I presumed too much context and intimacy, so sorry about that too. I did think that you, the GQ, did know me well enough not to say something like this (albeit qualified by a "perhaps"): >Er, thanks. I'm glad that I have your seal of legitimacy! ;) Though again, I >think that some people around here, you perhaps included, tend to shut >yourself off from things if they have the whiff of popularity, and that >seems like a limitation to me. I might not have said it lately, but my only criterion is "do I like it?" If you've ever looked at my yearly music lists, there's million-sellers sitting beside of hundred-sellers, and I'm pretty sure that at some point in my life (probably several), I delivered unto Feg my famous pro-Nirvana anti-"more-alternative-than-thou" panegyric/harangue about how the same people who were all "yeah, NEVERMIND kicks ass" in September 1991 were calling it a sellout record just a few weeks later. I hate Spielberg not because because I think he's a wretched hack who can't get past his own pulp-induced limitations on storytelling and characterization, as well as his startling distrust of the audience (let *me,* not John Williams, decide if I'm moved by this COLOR PURPLE scene, dammit!), not because his films make oodles of cash. And earlier this very day, why, I expressed my disdain for those annoying Total Request Live staples GbV, Stereolab, and Elliott Smith. :-) In other words, if anyone's organizing a crusade against the more-alternative-than-thou, I'll happily be in the front ranks. Alright, 'nuff of that stuff. And Drew, when I said this: >> Speaking of U2, what I perceive as a common thread in Quail's taste in >> music and film is a strong desire for *connectedness* and *belonging.* I didn't mean to sound snobbish at all here, if anywhere (reading over my post again, I would have picked other places to cite for that!). It really did strike me forcibly that a lot of Quail's very favorites have that bigger-than-us join-together sort of vibe, and that it's probably not coincidence that they get the top slots. And it also fascinates me because here's an incredibly intelligent person whose opinions I respect very much (and with whom there's lots of overlap in taste) who highly values a quality to which I'm all but totally indifferent. Me, I would see every show from the vantage point of an invisible plastic bubble, where I could see and hear everything, but *not* have to bump into people, *not* hear the person next to me singing the words out of tune, and *not* having The Giant Youth Of Today block out the stage. I feel like my connection is more directly with the artist than with the throng. If there's a bigger vibe going on, that's gravy (the one time I saw Midnight Oil comes to mind); with some acts (P-Funk being the best example), it's part and parcel of what they do. But it's not essential for me, not at all. A lot of my favorite live experiences were ones where the art was damn sure the focus, rather than the communion. Like R.E.M.'s shows through '87, or Wire anytime: very much a "here's the stuff, it's cool if you enjoy it, but here it is anyway" art-first thing. Some find it cold, but if the quality's there, I find it exhilarating. Oh, I'll shut up now. Maybe we're closer to what I was getting at then when we started. And maybe not. Rejoinders and psychohistorical perspectives on my taste are welcome off-list or on-list. I'll get things started: I have probably listened to ABC's HOW TO BE A ZILLIONAIRE and Sisters of Mercy's FLOODLAND more than almost anything in my collection. I'll be on the couch if you need me. >Delivered after Eb's "Deconstructing the Clippity Cloppity Brainfry Beat" >and LJ's "You Can Tease Him All You Want, But I Actually Have to Listen to >Rush Three Times a Week." With those papers, it's a must-attend symposium! Can we get a convention rate at the Plaza? snobbishly yours, M. ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V11 #394 ********************************