From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V11 #242 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Sunday, July 28 2002 Volume 11 : Number 242 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Venting about Tuatara ["Maximilian Lang" ] Not Again... ["Michael Wells" ] Robyn review - Toronto [Caroline Smith ] Robyn interview [Caroline Smith ] Throwing Follies ["Michael Wells" ] Re: Not Again... [Jason Thornton ] Re: Venting about Tuatara [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: Venting about Tuatara [Jeff Dwarf ] Re: Side 3 [Jeff Dwarf ] Re: Venting about Tuatara, though feeling better now ["Maximilian Lang" ] Wire's US Tour ["Maximilian Lang" ] Tuatara and the service charge ["Maximilian Lang" ] Re: Venting about Tuatara, though feeling better now [Jeffrey with 2 Fs ] Phil Dick and other cunts ["Natalie Jane" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 15:32:24 -0400 From: "Maximilian Lang" Subject: Venting about Tuatara Well, I must say I was very much excited about seeing Tuatara this weekend at the Theater Of The Living Arts in Philadelphia. I heard it is a four hour show with musicians coming and going from the stage or something like that. The show was to be tonight. Last night I went to the show venue's site, low and behold it was cancelled only a couple of days ago. I thought, gee is somebody hurt, did something go wrong? NOOOOOOOOO, they were not happy with the ticket sales so they cancelled the show and are instead opening for the Who tonight. Down the drain go my 12 dollars in service charges, plans ruined, disappointment and all that. This is such total Bullcrap. I guess I have to deal with the fact that Rock Stars don't live in the real world and don't have any real responsibilities, I guess the only thing I can do is never give any of these people my money again, which is impractical considering the number of members and who they are. Here is a comical link where Peter Buck somewhat suggests that money isn't an issue on the tour like it some Utopian tour. Everyone making the same even if it's little or nothing, unless of course if the Who are in town: http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/entertainment/music/3731095.htm Pissed, massively so, Max _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 19:07:15 -0500 From: "Michael Wells" Subject: Not Again... Looks like I'm not the only one upset at a certain someone's refusal to post upcoming tour dates... http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020727/ap_on_re_us/brf_dy ing_squid You know, for my money you just can't have enough 'giant squid with human-like eyeballs washing up by the thousand on populated beaches' news stories. Or Kate Winslet updates/gossip. Michael "steady, Sea Biscuit" Wells ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 20:15:35 -0400 From: Caroline Smith Subject: Robyn review - Toronto Copied from: http://www.nationalpost.com/artslife/story.html?id={FF1A3A0C-CF2E-4E6B-9C55- 253BB7176ED0} Mike Doherty National Post Friday, July 26, 2002 ROBYN HITCHCOCK The Horseshoe Tavern, Toronto TORONTO - There's something to be said for concerts that go off without hitches or glitches, where months of blood, toil, tears and sweat have honed performances to marvels of precision. On the other hand, after one too many of these, it can be refreshing to wander into a club where neither the audience nor the artists really know what to expect. At a gig by Robyn Hitchcock, for instance, it's hard to predict anything other than that you'll be entertained. He's a greatly talented songwriter, as well as a surrealist stand-up comic whose between-song banter can find him extemporizing about the Pope, the Rolling Stones, trilobites, the Dirty Harry vehicle Magnum Force or reading E. Annie Proulx in the bath with the light off. "It's great to still exist," Hitchcock tells the crowd at the Horseshoe as he takes up his acoustic guitar and straps a harmonica holder around his neck. His floppy hair may have gone grey, but at 49, he's a little young to be giving thanks for longevity. His fans, however, are thankful they know of his continued existence: Like some kind of alt-pop shaman, you have to seek him out. For a short time in the late '80s and early '90s, he was on a major label. But despite hum-along hooks, expensive pop production and guest appearances by REM's Peter Buck and Michael Stipe, Hitchcock's songs about Perspex, moss and exploding balloon men -- delivered with a distinctive middle-class London accent -- somehow failed to find a wide audience. The Horseshoe audience is also somewhat small, but the intimate setting is perfect for his between-song ramblings, and Hitchcock is a versatile enough guitarist and singer to keep an audience enthralled, carrying off heartfelt Dylan covers and his own compositions -- be they folk, rock or grotesque novelty numbers -- with panache. Oddly enough, his best material tends to be the dreamier fare, like the gentle new number I Feel Beautiful Because You Love Me, which Hitchcock acknowledges has "a pretty unambiguous message." Nonetheless, it does contain the lines "I wake up in the morning and I face the East / I am in the paws of an enormous beast." Sublimely ridiculous. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 20:28:39 -0400 From: Caroline Smith Subject: Robyn interview More! Copied from: http://www.canoe.ca/JamMusicArtistsH/hitchcock_robyn.html Saturday, July 27, 2002 Robyn's Soft side By MIKE BELL -- Calgary Sun On Tuesday, two notable figures landed in Canada -- both in Toronto actually. One is the head of the Roman Catholic Church; the other, British singer-songwriter Robyn Hitchcock. "That's why I'm here," jokes Hitchcock, who's sitting in his T.O. hotel room staring outside at the passing transit vehicles. "My work is never done as a representative of the other side. I mean, a lot of the other sides." Nor, too, does it appear his work as one of the world's most unique (eccentric? To-may-toe, to-mah-toe) and original pop artists will be winding down any time soon. At the age of 49, the wry Hitchcock, who plays the folk fest main stage tonight as well as workshops today and tomorrow, is currently playing a handful of dates in order to support his latest release Robyn Sings. Unlike past solo albums such as Fegmania!, Globe of Frogs, or Perspex Island, his latest is a two CD collection of Bob Dylan covers, including one disc that is a re-enactment of Dylan's infamous Albert Hall concert. The reason for the project is simple. "I grew out of Dylan," Hitchcock says. "I wouldn't have been a singer or a songwriter if it wasn't for Dylan, I would have been a poet or a comedian or a painter or a novelist or something. "In a way, it's like the Soft Boys -- I'm checking in with my origins, completing the spiral." The Soft Boys to which he refers is his influential late-'70s cult band which reunited last year for several shows to celebrate the re-release of its quintessential album, Underwater Moonlight. "It was interesting to see where time had left us all relative to each other after 20 years," Hitchcock says of the reunion. "It seemed to leave us within reach of each other. We'd all been cast up pretty close on the same beach ..." So much so that, two decades after first splitting up, the quartet is set for the September release of a new studio album, Nextdoorland. Although Hitchcock does think the album should wrap things up for the Boys, he says he has enjoyed the new experience. "There's been very few flashbacks. People are all recognizably what they were, but it isn't exactly the same thing. I feel very different internally, and I look pretty different externally. I guess we're all the same height ... but I think between us we've gained the weight of an extra person," he jokes. "I wisely foresaw that in Edinburgh in 1980 when we were all sharing a hotel room ... "They rang up and said, 'How many will be down to breakfast?' and I said 'There's five of us.' And she said, 'I thought there were only four gentlemen in there?' I said, 'Yeah, one of us has had a baby.' "And I was so right, we have. And our baby is called Our Collective Weight Gain." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 19:58:01 -0500 From: "Michael Wells" Subject: Throwing Follies Well, at least one very interesting tour date came to my attention today. Knowing there's Grant and Kristen Hersch fans here, you all might find this interesting... === Saturday, September 28 - The Abbey Pub Chicago Exile Follies Featuring: Grant Lee Phillips + Kristin Hersch + John Doe Early Show, Doors: 6:00pm, Show: 7:00pm, $20/Advance or $20/DOS The tour starts 9/18 and (so far) covers Atlanta, Carrboro, Philly, Washington, Hoboken, Somerville, NYC, Detroit, and Chicago. I'll be at the Chicago gig for sure - anyone else? Daryl? More from Grant's website: "The aim of The Exile Follies is to bring together various maverick personalities whose differences are their stock and trade. Typically these aren't the types who travel in packs, at least not forever, which makes this event all the more rare and inviting. Phillips ushered the concept into being with the intention of creating future gatherings with various artists as the model develops. Says Phillips, "My hope is that a tour like this would give us each a chance to have that one on one with our audience and perhaps a chance to explore playing together, however the mood struck. That kind of spontaneity and raw intensity, none of which you can really plan for, is really missing today. You'll hardly find it on the radio, and it's getting harder to come by in general. This makes for lonely listeners and lonelier musicians, for that matter. The Exile Follies is a town hall meeting for all of us oddballs!"" source: http://www.grantleephillips.com/exilefollies.html Michael "and it's on my birthday, fuckin' a" Wells ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 19:23:28 -0700 From: Jason Thornton Subject: Re: Not Again... On Saturday, July 27, 2002, at 05:07 PM, Michael Wells wrote: > Looks like I'm not the only one upset at a certain someone's refusal to > post > upcoming tour dates... > > http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020727/ap_on_re_us/brf_dy > ing_squid > > You know, for my money you just can't have enough 'giant squid with > human-like > eyeballs washing up by the thousand on populated beaches' news stories. I'm sure that since this occurred here in La Jolla, you're all blaming me. And you'd be right. Houston, you're next. - --Jason 'Blah blah blah.' -- some guy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 23:41:10 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: Venting about Tuatara On Sat, 27 Jul 2002, Maximilian Lang wrote: > opening for the Who tonight. Down the drain go my 12 dollars in service > charges, plans ruined, disappointment and all that. This is such total > Bullcrap. I guess I have to deal with the fact that Rock Stars don't live > in the real world and don't have any real responsibilities, I guess the only > thing I can do is never give any of these people my money again, which is > impractical considering the number of members and who they are. It's not necessarily the musicians who cancel the gig - and as you suggest, it's not the musicians who got your $12. It's the promoters, and TicketBastard, etc., with their ridiculous "service charges" (it is, of course, impossible to buy tickets at their actually listed price). But if it'll make you feel any better, steal a Tuatara CD. Seriously, the problem isn't that gigs get cancelled - everyone involved is trying to run a business, and if a hall is rented for X dollars, and only 20 people are going to show up, better to cancel the gig than lose even more money. But of course, there are probably going to be non-refundable costs associated w/booking the hall, etc. Who *should* pay those costs? I would think it would be good promo to say to ticketholders of the cancelled show that they can get, say, $10 off tickets to the Who show - but that'd be possible only if the same ticketing agency is involved, etc. etc. etc. In other words, probably impossible. No matter how much we might want musicians to act as if they're not running a business, they are...if only because they, too, have costs to recoup, etc. (I read a boneheaded critic locally who, in an article about a guy who was a producer in the '70s, claimed that probably there wasn't much of a market for such producers these days because "anybody can just buy ProTools." Uh-huh...have you looked at the price of ProTools, Mr. Journalist? I did: the lowest end product offered by the fine folks at Digidesign is about $1,000 - and ProTools proper is (in its bargain incarnation) $8,000 if I remember right. Not just "anybody" can afford that.) - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::a squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast and bulbous...got me? __Captain Beefheart__ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 00:44:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeff Dwarf Subject: Re: Venting about Tuatara Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: > On Sat, 27 Jul 2002, Maximilian Lang wrote: > > opening for the Who tonight. Down the drain go my 12 dollars in > > service charges, plans ruined, disappointment and all that. This > > is such total Bullcrap. I guess I have to deal with the fact that > > Rock Stars don't live in the real world and don't have any real > > responsibilities, Who in Tuatara besides Peter Buck really qualifies as a Rock Star? Scott McCaughey? Barrett Martin? Justin Harwood? Working musicians, sure, but there is probably a limited amount of financial loss that anyone of them -- even Peter Buck -- can take on. > I guess the only thing I can do is never give any of these people > > my money again, which is impractical considering the number of > > members and who they are. > > It's not necessarily the musicians who cancel the gig - and as you > suggest, it's not the musicians who got your $12. It's the promoters, > and > TicketBastard, etc., with their ridiculous "service charges" (it is, > of > course, impossible to buy tickets at their actually listed price). > > But if it'll make you feel any better, steal a Tuatara CD. > > Seriously, the problem isn't that gigs get cancelled - everyone > involved > is trying to run a business, and if a hall is rented for X dollars, > and > only 20 people are going to show up, better to cancel the gig than > lose > even more money. > > But of course, there are probably going to be non-refundable costs > associated w/booking the hall, etc. > > Who *should* pay those costs? > > I would think it would be good promo to say to ticketholders of the > cancelled show that they can get, say, $10 off tickets to the Who > show - > but that'd be possible only if the same ticketing agency is involved, > etc. > etc. etc. In other words, probably impossible. > > No matter how much we might want musicians to act as if they're not > running a business, they are...if only because they, too, have costs > to > recoup, etc. > > (I read a boneheaded critic locally who, in an article about a guy > who was > a producer in the '70s, claimed that probably there wasn't much of a > market for such producers these days because "anybody can just buy > ProTools." Uh-huh...have you looked at the price of ProTools, Mr. > Journalist? I did: the lowest end product offered by the fine folks > at > Digidesign is about $1,000 - and ProTools proper is (in its bargain > incarnation) $8,000 if I remember right. Not just "anybody" can > afford > that.) > > --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey > > J e f f r e y N o r m a n > The Architectural Dance Society > www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html > ::a squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast and > bulbous...got me? > __Captain Beefheart__ ===== "This week, the White House says President Bush meant no disrespect when he referred to the Pakistani people as 'Pakis.' But just to be on the safe side, White House staffers have cancelled his trip to Nigeria" -- Tina Fey, Saturday Night Live's "Weekend Update" "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt . Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 01:11:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeff Dwarf Subject: Re: Side 3 Brian Hoare wrote: > From www.underwatermoonlight.com > > "The new album's "Side Three," a CD of five new studio tracks, will > be available at shows." > > Do they mean that those who can't get to the shows will be reduced to > scrounging cdrs? It now says this: "Following a date at the Mean Fiddler in London on October 17th, the Soft Boys will be touring North America in support of the album into early November, with UK dates planned to follow (nothing confirmed as yet). Available at shows (as well as through the website) will be the new album's "Side Three," a CD comprising five studio tracks plus one live recording from the last tour: "Evil Guy," recorded at the soundcheck at the Fillmore and featuring Thomas Dolby on keyboards." so it looks like you can also buy it through the website. ===== "This week, the White House says President Bush meant no disrespect when he referred to the Pakistani people as 'Pakis.' But just to be on the safe side, White House staffers have cancelled his trip to Nigeria" -- Tina Fey, Saturday Night Live's "Weekend Update" "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt . Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 10:19:22 -0400 From: "Maximilian Lang" Subject: Re: Venting about Tuatara, though feeling better now >From: Jeff Dwarf >Who in Tuatara besides Peter Buck really qualifies as a Rock Star? >Scott McCaughey? Barrett Martin? Justin Harwood? Working musicians, >sure, but there is probably a limited amount of financial loss that >anyone of them -- even Peter Buck -- can take on. If you read the link Buck said that implies that they don't give a shit about the money. As far as the poverty line of rock star that's quibbling over semantics, how about 'people who rock for a living'? I do think it is rather crass to give an interview in which one says what he did when a gig has been canceled because one is not satisfied with sales. Also one must consider the location of the venue. The theater Of The Living Arts is smack dab in the middle of South Street and is almost assured a rather robust walkup for a Saturday night. Yes, maybe it's a biz. but you have to admit you would be pretty damn peeved if it happened to you. It would be one thing if were to be canceled 10 days before the show. I was at the T.L.A. on Tuesday night to see Lucinda Williams(the recording is great, she was seriously pissed off and it's damn pretty funny. she goes off about Nashville with a torrent of efff bombs), it was still on at that point. Imagine how you would feel if you drove to the show, parked in a busy part of town and got to the gate to find it had been canceled? It was still listed in fridays adds in local papers. Then you find out not only has it been canceled but they had played five hours earlier at the Who show in N.J.. Luckily I caught it out of the corner of my eye on the web at 11:00 PM the night before the show. >_have_ to be cheaper to go buy at the box office.) One buys tickets early to avoid losing out to a sell out, common sense methinks? Also Ticketmaster did not cancel the show. I am not blaming Tuatara for the service charge but rather for switching their show to a sold out venue and therefore costing me twelve dollars and making it IMPOSSIBLE to attend. So it is in essence their fault. I'm not angry all the time(tonsillitis does not help though), Max _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 10:22:29 -0400 From: "Maximilian Lang" Subject: Wire's US Tour from Wires web site: The following dates are now confirmed for Wire's North American tour in September 2002 SAT 7 - SAN DIEGO, CA - Casbah SUN 8 - LOS ANGELES, CA - El Rey Theater MON 9 - SAN FRANCISCO, CA - Fillmore TUE 10 - SEATTLE, WA - Showbox WED 11 - PORTLAND OR - Crystal Ballroom FRI 13 - MINNEAPOLIS, MN - First Avenue SAT 14 - CHICAGO, IL - Metro SUN 15 - TORONTO, ON - Lee's Palace TUE 17 - CAMBRIDGE, MA - Middle East (Down) WED 18 - NEW YORK, NY - Irving Plaza THUR 19 - PHILADELPHIA PA - Gasoline (Making Time event) FRI 20 - WASHINGTON, DC- 9:30 Club SAT 21 - ATLANTA, GA - Echo Lounge SUN 22 - AUSTIN, TX - La Zona Rosa _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 12:00:43 -0400 From: "Maximilian Lang" Subject: Tuatara and the service charge I just returned my Tuatara Tix. I should point out that contrary to what a friend told me I happily did get the service charge back. Max _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 11:02:27 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: Venting about Tuatara, though feeling better now On Sun, 28 Jul 2002, Maximilian Lang wrote: > If you read the link Buck said that implies that they don't give a shit > about the money. As far as the poverty line of rock star that's quibbling > over semantics, how about 'people who rock for a living'? I do think it is > rather crass to give an interview in which one says what he did when a gig > has been canceled because one is not satisfied with sales. I didn't read the interview, but (a) "not giving a shit about money" usually means you don't care if you don't make a lot - not that you don't care if you lose a lot; (b) I don't know what you mean by "people who rock for a living"? I do know that the average musician - even one in a band signed to a major label - makes very little money indeed. And finally, (c) I rather doubt that Peter Buck personally looked over the sales for the show and said, "cancel this gig." So to answer an interviewer's question, or talk about what he was doing instead...what, he's supposed to say, "I can't tell you what I'm doing that night because I wouldn't want to offend anyone who had tickets to the gig that got cancelled"? I mean, yeah, musicians should be involved enough in the business end of things so they don't get screwed over - but at the end of the day, it's not their primary job - so if Buck was thinking more about the gig that did exist, and the playing that he would be doing, than about a gig that got cancelled, I can't blame him. Let's say you made an appointment to have some work done on your car. Something else comes up, you call and cancel the apointment. How do you know the mechanic wasn't coming in only to do your job that afternoon - maybe the boss couldn't find anyone else to do the work - so the mechanic cancels all his other plans for that day. Then his boss calls and tells him don't bother, the guy cancelled. Is the mechanic justified in being pissed off at you for making him cancel whatever he'd had scheduled for that day? > One buys tickets early to avoid losing out to a sell out, common sense > methinks? Also Ticketmaster did not cancel the show. I am not blaming > Tuatara for the service charge but rather for switching their show to a sold > out venue and therefore costing me twelve dollars and making it IMPOSSIBLE > to attend. So it is in essence their fault. Not necessarily. Do you know who *did* cancel the show? Do you know who added Tuatara to the bill at the sold-out show? I seriously doubt Peter Buck, or anyone else in the band, got on the phone and made a few arrangements to play at the show. Most likely, there were managers and promoters and agents scurrying to figure out the best option. Another way to look at it: the band had a gig. Then they didn't. Would you rather no one scrambled to get them a gig, so they weren't working at all? Any time one buys a ticket for something in advance, one runs the risk that the show won't happen. The bass player could die (oh never mind - that didn't stop the show), the band might break up, the drummer might lose an arm...you just don't know. I'm assuming the ticket *said* the $12 service charges were non-refundible, right? C'est la vie. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::beliefs are ideas going bald:: __Francis Picabia__ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 12:35:19 -0700 From: "Natalie Jane" Subject: Phil Dick and other cunts >Hey, some cunt's gotta do it :) > >(H) - whose fave swear word of all time is "cunt" "Cunt" really only sounds good with certain British (mainly northern) and Scottish accents. It's a fine Latin word, though, and deserves to be used freely. There's a book by Inga Muscio called "Cunt," trying to revive the word. I haven't read it - I got annoyed at an article she wrote in which she was unable to praise SF author Octavia Butler (who happens to be black) without putting down "whitey-pants" male SF authors like Phil Dick, who had the temerity to have had movies made out of his books. Anyway... >Then there's Alfred Bester. Maybe R.A.Lafferty, John >Brunner, Spider Robinson, Robert Silverberg, Vonda McIntyre. Gene >>Wolfe >is amazing, but hard going (his "New Sun" series is wonderful). I love Alfred Bester, especially his incredibly clever and funny short stories. "The Demolished Man" is excellent, though "The Stars My Destination" suffers from a poorly worked-out premise and a hero who is also a rapist. I finally slogged through the "New Sun" series a while back. Good stuff, but keep a dictionary handy. Carrion birds picking at a dead horse: >I would >argue that SF isn't really about "science" or "the future" (at least >not >when I'm interested in it) but about the ways in which scientific >ideas >(including those from humanistic sciences like psychology and >sociology) >can, sufficiently extended or extrapolated, shed light on the lives of >readers now. Much SF is like that, yes - at least, the kind that isn't of the "gee-whiz" variety. (E.g. "what would happen if they invented a space ship that could WARP TIME!!!") But many SF writers, including Dick, managed to create a commentary on the present without blatant paid ads for the Gap (or equivalent) peppering their stories, and used made-up products without jeopardizing what they were trying to say. Perky Pat (from "Three Stigmata") is an excellent example. I suppose what ultimately gets me is I know that the Gap, or Lexus, or whatever else was in "Minority Report," are there only partly for artistic purposes. Somebody also got paid. I think if I had been seeing this in an era before paid product placement was commonplace, I wouldn't have minded nearly as much. As it is, it just seems cheap and pathetic, and one more ad that I have to screen out. I'm pretty sure that's my last word on the subject, so you can all relax. Oh yeah, and all this hostility runs in the family... my mom said she left "Minority Report" "tense with rage," and my dad announced that Steven Spielberg is responsible for the decline and fall of American movie-making. I disagree - I think it's George Lucas. (And I'm saying this as a big fan of the first "Star Wars" trilogy, by the way.) time to get the laundry out, gnat "Jedi master" the gnatster _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V11 #242 ********************************