From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V11 #218 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Wednesday, July 3 2002 Volume 11 : Number 218 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: For What its Worth [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: legalised murder [Eleanore Adams ] skinerama [drew ] Re: Only connect [Michael R Godwin ] Re[2]: Interesting and Who [noe shalev ] Re: stumbling, forward [gSs ] Re: stumbling, forward ["Jason R. Thornton" ] The Circulation of the Feg ["No Name" ] elvis is everywhere ["ross taylor" ] Re: stumbling, forward [gSs ] "Pansy Division" is a great band name ["Natalie Jane" ] Re: stumbling, forward ["matt sewell" ] Re: what is worst and what is best? ["matt sewell" Subject: Re: For What its Worth On Tue, 2 Jul 2002, No Name wrote: Didn't Yes used to perform 'Everydays', or > have I made that up? Yes, and no. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::No man is an island. ::But if you take a bunch of dead guys and tie 'em together, ::they make a pretty good raft. __Max Cannon__ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 22:46:48 -0700 From: Eleanore Adams Subject: Re: legalised murder Just commentary.... While in law school (I just graduated a month ago!!! I can't believe it is over.....) I worked on the Innocence Project for 2 semesters. Oh, my god, our system is defective. Our system is very fallible, as is all man-made things. We have killed innocent people, and have freed innocent people. As well as the opposite, allowing guilty free reign on our streets. for that reason alone we should stay the death penalty. I think it should be abolished since man is fallible. I believe conviction is just the beginning of the process, not the end, if we are to make sure that our justice system is to run effectively. my 2 cents e Monday, July 1, 2002, at 08:22 PM, James Dignan wrote: >>> U.S. District Judge Rakoff said the federal death penalty act >>> "deprives >>> innocent people of a significant opportunity to prove their innocence" >> >> Significant opportunity already exists. It's called the appeals >> process. > > and if evidence of innocence turns up after the appeals process is > over...? > If the prisoner is still serving time, they can rejoin the community. > That's not that easy if the penal system has already murdered them. > >> Which is why the Supremes at one point ruled more or less that, even if >> compelling evidence of innocence exists, after a certain point it can >> no >> longer be introduced... > > that would have to have been in the lyrics of "You keep me hangin' > (on)", right? > > James > > James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand. =-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= > .-=-.-=-.-=-.- > .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-. > -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= You talk to me as if from a distance > =-.-=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time > -=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 22:44:55 -0700 From: drew Subject: skinerama Deja vu: I think it was one of my cognition classes where I was told that this is basically a brain-glitch; like, the part of your brain that deals with Now and the part that remembers things get their wires crossed, so you experience it simultaneously with a memory of it, or something. I have no other explanation that makes sense, since deja vu for me is rarely triggered by anything I could possibly believe was part of a past life. > From: Eleanore Adams > Subject: Cinerama, new one > > Well, I picked up the new Cinerama today "Torino", being a huge Wedding > Present fan. I've never really listened to the Wedding Present, and only the other day heard anything by Cinerama other than "Superman," one amazingly wonderful song. I really liked the first two Cinerama albums and will probably buy them sooner or later -- but I'll probably pick this one up first. Thanks for the recommendation! Oh -- my Kinks exploration isn't going much better, I'm afraid, though I did end up with two songs out of ten that were likeable and three or four more that were OK. Incidentally, please don't take my remarks about these humongous classic acts as a criticism; I'm not making any statements about whether I think they're great bands, just about my personal reaction to and enjoyment of their music. > From: glen uber > > Agreed. If any white person deserves the title "King of Rock and Roll" > it > is Buddy. I don't know about that. For one thing, keep in mind that the crown rarely goes to one most qualified to wield power. Drew ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:08:06 +0100 (BST) From: Michael R Godwin Subject: Re: Only connect > Godwin: > >And didn't Bob Dylan play the piano for Buddy on one tour? On Tue, 2 Jul 2002, No Name wrote: > Huh? Wait, youre not really Greg Shell, now are you? You're kidding, right? * No, I made a mistake. It was Bobby Vee, not Buddy Holly, whom Dylan played piano for. Recording listed at: http://www.taxhelp.com/williams-performing.html Darkness Darkness: > Its a killer, aint it. I have a weakness for songs where it seems the singer > has lost it in front of the mike. You feel awe at the rawness of it. And if > its also good music, you feel even greater awe at the artistry of it. * I hear from a long-lost source that Robert Plant has included it on his new album. - - Mike Godwin n.p. Bonzos 'Mr Apollo': "Wrestle poodles and win!" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:53:26 -0800 From: noe shalev Subject: Re[2]: Interesting and Who > I think the point is that the fiddle part "made" the song. It is a good song but the fiddle part is very distinctive and lifted the whole song IMHO. Of course this is >all very subjective and I just happen to think that BV is the absolute dog's bollocks so I could be biased! actualy the piece added by him should be neasured by the same criteria every creation is meseared in order to grant it copyright, that include originality, talent, effort and so and so, being distinctive and charecterizing only show that there's enpugh originality and effort to make it a different creation and to rule that thise composition or recording is based on two or more creations. by the way on primus records there's a special credit for guitar solos and this is for composition not for performing. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 08:56:21 -0500 (CDT) From: gSs Subject: Re: stumbling, forward On Tue, 2 Jul 2002, FS Thomas wrote: > We're all granted under the Constitution the right to > keep and bear arms--not haul off and commit crimes with > them. yer getten kinda silly now. i can get a pilot's license but that freedom is not setup so I can fill the plane with fuel and crash it into a building full of people, for instance. > In light of the reality that unless completely > repealed, the right for every nut case in the country > to own a gun is going to remain secured. nut cases do not have the right to own a gun in this country, in fact it is illegal. > The answer to gun-related crimes: make the penalties harsh as hell. are you a christian and do you support the death penalty? that's what started this thread. well, the death penalty part anyway. should we apply hate crime laws to cover wild animals? > As someone who worked in bars for a dozen years in > capacities from bouncer to manager the one thing that > always scared the CRAP out of me was that someone would > get in a fight and pull a gun. Knives, chairs and > bottles I can handle. Yes, they can be deadly, but not > with the immediacy (or implied immediacy) of a gun. > They wig me out in general and perhaps harsher > penalties for committing crimes by their use would > lower their use. there are harsher penalties for armed robbery and quite a few other crimes in which a gun or any weapon is used. but murder is murder no matter the method. that is my point. you still didn't answer any question. you wrote: > Using a flintlock rifle in a robbery is different than using a > Mac-10, don't you think? The /potential/ for harm is higher, isn't it? i wrote: > > So you think we should punish people for what they could have done, > > even though they didn't? you replied: > Holy Minority Report, Batman! So are you saying the potential energy of the weapon, whether used or not should directly influence the sentance? If a 250lb. 6'2" man beats his wife to death, should be get a tougher sentance than the 5'3" 140lb. man who did the same thing? If an englishman yells "dago twit" right before he kills a frenchman, should he get a more severe sentence than the englishman who yells "dirty communist" or nothing at all before he kills a communist frenchman? remember, hate laws don't cover political affiliation. i know this seems like it has little to do with using a gun rather than your penis to kill someone, but in my opinion the same flawed logic floats them both. gSs ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 08:37:08 -0700 From: "Jason R. Thornton" Subject: Re: stumbling, forward At 08:56 AM 7/3/2002 -0500, gSs wrote: >should we apply hate crime laws to cover wild animals? Only for black bears, the Mexican bean beetle and the fairy wren. The wasp, of course, will not be covered. Even if it's killed by a black panther. >If an englishman yells "dago twit" right before he kills a frenchman, >should he get a more severe sentence than the englishman who yells >"dirty communist" or nothing at all before he kills a communist frenchman? Anyone calling a frenchman a 'dago' is a really bad racist. I don't mean he's a horrible person, I just mean he's not very good at racism. - --Jason "Only the few know the sweetness of the twisted apples." - Sherwood Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 15:47:58 +0000 From: "No Name" Subject: The Circulation of the Feg I wrote: >Nevertheless, your hypothosis is no more provable than the hypothosis >that >it was a polergeist. And Ed wrote in response: >well, except to the extent that there's never been a measurement or >'objective' verification of super- or extra-natural forces at work. Which only proves that they are not measurable by science's present tools. Blood circulated before Harvey prooved it did. There may have even been an occult theory that, by using the imagination, concieved of or described it before science could measure it. Don't forget how many of the most important scientific theories came into being because for a few moments a scientist dreamed or daydreamed his way into the phenomena(e.g., reletivity and the carbon ring.) No one has ever invented an instrument that verifies and quantifies love(except perhaps for Solomon,but thats a legend;-). One of the delusions of our age is that we use science to define reality. Of course the answer to this delusion is not to switch to its idiot twin, -not- using science, but to have the discernment to balance both sorts of understanding, knowing when each sort is most fruitful. >my confidence that a physical explanation is available (or would be, >if we >knew all the facts, which we won't) isn't just skepticism of >your >experience, but a position borne out of the lack of any evidence >that >another explanation is plausible. If something can't happen according to the instruments you use, it can't be percieved as evidence. And thanks Ed for debating in such a civilized manner. Its a privilage to slightly disagree with you;-) - ----------------------- Drew on the Who: >The rest were at best uninvolving to me, and at worst really very annoying. :-). One thing I forgot to warn you about. The Who(to my ears at least) are one of the most uneven bands ever. And when they're bad they're strident, knuckle-headed and grating. But I love the good stuff. - --------------------------- Thanks for all the Holly info and opinions. - ------------------------------------ So which is going to happen first, The SBs get in the Hall of Fame or Dylan gets the Noble? (My moneys on Dylan. The HOF seems like a cross tween coporate politics and a popularity contest. Perhaps their problem with Patty Smith and the Stooges was that these two were -too- rock n roll. Oy. - --------------------- My celebration of the 4th will include a total media embargo. Anything so as not hear all the stupid stuff people are going to get into the bullypulpit and say. Kay _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 12:02:46 -0400 From: "ross taylor" Subject: elvis is everywhere (Incidentally, I can't remember if there are any Memphians on list -- my dad was & I've spent some time there). Elvis & racism -- A couple of years ago I had the pleasure of meeting Ernest Withers, one of the first African-American photo journalists in the US (he's most well known for documenting early civil rights events in Memphis). Anyway he seemed to think Elvis was fine regarding race. He showed me a photo he took of Elvis arm in arm w/ a very young --and *skinny*-- B.B. King. As regards Flavor Fav, Chuck D & co., I have known lots of older southern white people who worship "th' King" but have major issues about race. I've only just gotten to grudgingly admire some of Presley's early stuff, plus "Suspicious Minds." When I 1st started listening to pop in the late 60s, Elvis was the AntiCool, arm in arm w/ Richard Nixon, singing "Don't Mess w/ the U.S. Male," & having some really bad movies etc. He seemed soooo straight. Looking back, yeah, he crossed the color line, he shook his hips. One reviewer even called him "effiminate" because "every note had a sob wrapped around it." Plus there's the cool reverb on the Sun sessions. One thing that still bugs me about him is that most academics who write about pop music write about him & Madonna. Then they can wink at their academic audience like "I'm really just writing about him as a social phenomenon." Madonna kinda winks like that too. Buddy & more 50s -- I love fantasies about what performers who died would have done -- once wrote a bad story called "Still Raining, Still Dreaming" about two guys throwing yarrow sticks & tossing coins to use I Ching to work out lots of different alternate lives for Hendrix (in most of them he dies early). Seems like most 50s rock stars never really changed, just revived their old acts, maybe w/ a bit more soloing. Little Richard was the only one to really mutate, going glam & gay briefly then renouncing that. Or maybe Ricky Nelson & Johnny Cash -- at least their lyrics changed w/ the 60s. Maybe the Everly Bros. took on a bit of British invasion sound ("Gone, Gone, Gone") & maybe Berry for about a minute ("Nadine" sounds almost like the Kinks). Wasn't Holly a bit younger? So maybe he would've performed at Monterey. Buffalo Springfield & Byrds -- Too bad the (well recorded) boot of BS w/ David Crosby filling in for Neil Young at Monterey Pop is so unexciting. I guess they were holding back because of being underrehersed. And Crosby either hadn't yet taken the drugs he was on for the Byrds set or was crashing from them. Ross Taylor "what about Memphis home of Elvis and the ancient Greeks what's that smell is that home cooking? it's only the river! it's only the river!" - --Talking Heads Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:02:34 -0500 (CDT) From: gSs Subject: Re: stumbling, forward On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Jason R. Thornton wrote: > Anyone calling a frenchman a 'dago' is a really bad racist. I don't mean > he's a horrible person, I just mean he's not very good at racism. so please correct. who are the dagos, if they are not french? after years and years of watching british comedy, especially 'are you being served', 'fawlty towers', 'black adder' and 'fools and horses' for instance it is easy to see that some of the british regard anyone who lives in Portugal, Spain, France, Italy, Greece, Yugoslavia, some of the North African Countries and any gypsy as a dago. It was used so often I was always amazed that it did not seem to bother any of the mainstream brits. The label is applied almost equally to anyone from these countries by the characters in these comedies. the first couple times i heard it I thought it was only applied to italians but the more I watched the shows, the more I learned that is not true. these shows were all recorded from the early seventies through the mid to late eighties. also, i have heard the term used to describe southern europeans in general in other british comedies as well as dramas made well into the nineties. it is apparently a common word in the british vocabulary. gSs ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 09:11:47 -0700 From: "Natalie Jane" Subject: "Pansy Division" is a great band name >To my mind, that's the least complaint you could >bring against them. The songs all sound alike, Jon >Ginoli's voice is so-so, the sound is not what I'd >call ass-kicking (or even -fucking) punk, the lyrics >are often groan-inducing, and so on. I guess they're a band that's best enjoyed live. I wouldn't buy one of their records. Their bassist did look fabulous in that dress. I was envious. My friends' band Mazinga opened up for them, and my main memory of that is someone throwing up in the pit. "Don't laugh," my friend Marc cautioned the crowd. "It may happen to you. Either in this life or the next." But why not >criticize the Rolling Stones or Barry White for >singing about being straight all the time? That's kind of boring, too. Or it can be. Depends on how you do it. My memory is that Pansy Division sang about being gay in a boring, one-note kind of way. But I can't expound on that because I don't remember any of their lyrics. >If you're a Dylan >worshipper and all you can hear is how Robyn falls >short, then sure, you'll be dissatisfied, but since >you don't like Dylan, you wouldn't have that problem. Since I don't like Dylan, why would I want to hear someone else singing Dylan? Oh, OK, I like the versions of "All Along The Watchtower" and some other stuff. But a whole double album of Robyn doing his earnest Dylan impersonation - no thanks. >The review's pretty funny, though. Yeah, that's one of the funnier reviews I've read. Another funny one was a review of a recent Momus record that suggested that he was Britain's revenge on us for sending them They Might Be Giants. >"No kind of wishes >Can make things come true" >- -- Mr. Rogers That's really fucking dark! > >Rumour, Shalamar, the Soft Boys, Squeeze, the Stranglers, Stuff, Suicide, > >Wire, and XTC. What are you willing to bet that there'll be Chalkhillians shrieking with rage, writing angry letters, etc. when XTC don't get into the Hall of Fame? Steve and co., I expect a report. n. p.s. Isn't there some variant on Godwin's Law pertaining to discussions about the existence of God? If not, there should be. _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:11:13 -0500 (CDT) From: gSs Subject: what is worst and what is best? this kinda crap used to scare the shit out of me but now i would not call it a neccesary evil, more like a step forward towards stability. http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homeaffairs/story/0,11026,748444,00.html Wednesday July 3, 2002 All UK residents could be required to hold a card with details of their identity under a controversial scheme outlined to the House of Commons today by the home secretary, David Blunkett. But Mr Blunkett claimed that there was no question of the "entitlement card" being a compulsory ID card that individuals would be required to carry at all times. The proposal will now go to an open six-month consultation with the public, with Mr Blunkett insisting the government was "neutral" on the issue - despite it being a never-realised pet project of both Labour and Conservative governments for more than 20 years. And he stressed to those who objected to the idea on libertarian grounds: "There is nothing to fear from our own identity being properly acknowledged and recognised. "There is everything to fear from wrongful identification, or the acquisition of our identity for fraudulent purposes." The scheme most likely to be adopted would involve existing credit card-style driver's licences and the recently nnounced passport cards doubling up as entitlement cards, with a separate card for people who are eligible for neither of these documents. Mr Blunkett said he was personally "enthusiastic" about entitlement cards, which would be the first ID card scheme in the UK since the abandonment of wartime identity documents in 1952. They could help combat illegal immigration and illegal working, fraud and identity theft, while at the same time helping people apply for benefits and services to which they were entitled, he said. Mr Blunkett, launching a consultation document on the desirability of such cards, said they could provide "a simple, straightforward and verifiable way to establishing the right to work legally". The home secretary said such a card could be required for the purpose of gaining access to services as well as employment. Selling the possible advantages of the scheme, Mr Blunkett added that cards could also be used as a convenient travel document, as proof of age and as a means of promoting new ways of voting. Mr Blunkett said he hoped the proposed scheme would be self-financing through an increase in the charge for more secure passports and driving licences. The home secretary conceded: "There is always a danger of bureaucracy in such areas as this," adding that this "possible downside" was spelt out in the consultation document. The shadow home secretary Oliver Letwin told MPs that if the government was proposing a strictly defined benefit entitlement card, Tories would strongly welcome such a measure. Mr Letwin said Mr Blunkett's statement was full of "obscurity and spin" and warned that the public were bound to be anxious that the government planned to use such cards for a wide variety of other purposes. Mr Blunkett played down suggestions that the cards would provide a weapon in the fight against terrorism in the wake of the September 11 attacks on the US - even though the Home Office was one of the first bodies to float the idea following the terrorist panic last year. "Following the events of September 11, there was a call to introduce a type of 'identity card' system. We said we would not be giving a knee-jerk reaction in the wake of this terrorism and we have stuck to that," he said. Home Office estimates put the cost of the scheme over the next 13 years between #1.3bn, if simple plastic cards were used, and #3.1bn, for hi-tech computerised cards. Holders could be asked to pay for the cards through a #10-#18 hike in the cost of driving licences and passports from the current charges of #29 and #30 respectively. Refusing to register for a card would probably be a punishable offence, but ministers indicated that they did not anticipate major efforts to enforce participation. They expected most people would want to "opt in" to the scheme because they would be denied services if they did not. Mr Blunkett said he was "painfully aware" of the need for information on the cards to remain absolutely confidential, in order to allay concerns over invasion of privacy. He stressed that the government was "neutral" on the issue, and would wait until public reaction had been tested before announcing its plans early next year. Any legislation would not be introduced until the following session of parliament, and it would take three years to set up the scheme and a further five or six years before the details of an estimated 67.5 million UK resident were included on a central database. He said: "I am not going to disguise my own enthusiasm for an entitlement card system, but it is for the public to decide whether or not this is something they would see as useful and making their lives easier. "I have made it clear that the introduction of an entitlement card would be a major step and that we will not proceed without consulting widely and considering all the views expressed very carefully. "I want to see a far-reaching and meaningful public debate on the issue of entitlement cards, and a vigorous response from all parts of the community." The creation of a card scheme could involve every UK resident aged 16 and over being issued with a new unique personal number. But the Home Office stressed that no records would be kept on the cards of racial origin, sexual orientation, religious belief, trade union membership, political affiliation, health or criminal convictions or charges. "The central register would not become the depository for a wide range of information held by different government departments or agencies about individuals," said today's document. "The government is clear that protection against intrusion or unauthorised access to personal information is crucial if any such scheme were to work." The most hi-tech versions of the card could be used for a variety of functions, ranging from benefit applications to an EU-wide travel document, a library card or public transport season ticket. The Association of Chief Police Officers' spokesman on entitlement cards, Staffordshire chief constable Roger Baker, said: "We are pleased to see that the government has ruled out a card which would be compulsory for people to carry and produce to the police on demand. "Calling the card an entitlement card strikes the right note, stressing that the card should help people get the services they are entitled to, rather than being seen as a policing measure." John Abbott, director general of the National Criminal Intelligence Service, said: "With the large-scale migration of people throughout continents, identity of individuals is becoming increasingly important for those of us who provide actionable intelligence to law-enforcement agencies to fight organised crime and volume crime. "An entitlement card could have a major impact in the prevention of certain areas of organised crime - eg widespread benefits fraud." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 17:16:27 +0100 From: "matt sewell" Subject: Re: stumbling, forward I think you need to watch those comedies a little more closely - it's not all that commonly used, and when it is it's used in a derogatory way about the Spanish (hence you perhaps hearing it on Fawlty Towers). I've not heard it used for many years, since really the 70s when racism seemed perfectly all right (seemed odd to me as a child, really, and seems odd to me now that I didn't pick up on the casual racism my grandparents had bestowed upon my parents). Thankfully now, at least my parents seem to know better... Sometimes, Greg, I get the feeling you are posting from a parallel universe...! Cheers Matt >From: gSs >Reply-To: gSs >To: fegmaniax@smoe.org >Subject: Re: stumbling, forward >Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:02:34 -0500 (CDT) > >On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Jason R. Thornton wrote: > > Anyone calling a frenchman a 'dago' is a really bad racist. I don't mean > > he's a horrible person, I just mean he's not very good at racism. > >so please correct. who are the dagos, if they are not french? > >after years and years of watching british comedy, especially 'are you >being served', 'fawlty towers', 'black adder' and 'fools and horses' for >instance it is easy to see that some of the british regard anyone who >lives in Portugal, Spain, France, Italy, Greece, Yugoslavia, some of the >North African Countries and any gypsy as a dago. It was used so often I >was always amazed that it did not seem to bother any of the mainstream >brits. The label is applied almost equally to anyone from these countries >by the characters in these comedies. the first couple times i heard it I >thought it was only applied to italians but the more I watched the shows, >the more I learned that is not true. these shows were all recorded from >the early seventies through the mid to late eighties. also, i have heard >the term used to describe southern europeans in general in other british >comedies as well as dramas made well into the nineties. it is apparently a >common word in the british vocabulary. > >gSs - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: Click Here ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 17:20:08 +0100 From: "matt sewell" Subject: Re: what is worst and what is best? Nurse! My sedatives, please... I heard a Labour robot clone parroting this old bollocks on this morning's Today programme and it had me ranting like a loon (at 7.30am)... Don't get me started... Cheers Matt >From: gSs >Reply-To: gSs >To: fegmaniax@smoe.org >Subject: what is worst and what is best? >Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:11:13 -0500 (CDT) > >this kinda crap used to scare the shit out of me but now i would not call >it a neccesary evil, more like a step forward towards stability. > >http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homeaffairs/story/0,11026,748444,00.html > >Wednesday July 3, 2002 > >All UK residents could be required to hold a card with details of their >identity under a controversial scheme outlined to the House of Commons >today by the home secretary, David Blunkett. But Mr Blunkett claimed that >there was no question of the "entitlement card" being a compulsory ID card >that individuals would be required to carry at all times. The proposal >will now go to an open six-month consultation with the public, with Mr >Blunkett insisting the government was "neutral" on the issue - despite it >being a never-realised pet project of both Labour and Conservative >governments for more than 20 years. And he stressed to those who objected >to the idea on libertarian grounds: "There is nothing to fear from our >own identity being properly acknowledged and recognised. "There is >everything to fear from wrongful identification, or the acquisition of our >identity for fraudulent purposes." The scheme most likely to be adopted >would involve existing credit card-style driver's licences and the >recently nnounced passport cards doubling up as entitlement cards, with a >separate card for people who are eligible for neither of these documents. >Mr Blunkett said he was personally "enthusiastic" about entitlement cards, >which would be the first ID card scheme in the UK since the abandonment of >wartime identity documents in 1952. They could help combat illegal >immigration and illegal working, fraud and identity theft, while at the >same time helping people apply for benefits and services to which they >were entitled, he said. Mr Blunkett, launching a consultation document on >the desirability of such cards, said they could provide "a simple, >straightforward and verifiable way to establishing the right to work >legally". The home secretary said such a card could be required for the >purpose of gaining access to services as well as employment. Selling the >possible advantages of the scheme, Mr Blunkett added that cards could also >be used as a convenient travel document, as proof of age and as a means of >promoting new ways of voting. Mr Blunkett said he hoped the proposed >scheme would be self-financing through an increase in the charge for more >secure passports and driving licences. The home secretary conceded: "There >is always a danger of bureaucracy in such areas as this," adding that this >"possible downside" was spelt out in the consultation document. The shadow >home secretary Oliver Letwin told MPs that if the government was proposing >a strictly defined benefit entitlement card, Tories would strongly welcome >such a measure. Mr Letwin said Mr Blunkett's statement was full of >"obscurity and spin" and warned that the public were bound to be anxious >that the government planned to use such cards for a wide variety of other >purposes. Mr Blunkett played down suggestions that the cards would provide >a weapon in the fight against terrorism in the wake of the September 11 >attacks on the US - even though the Home Office was one of the first >bodies to float the idea following the terrorist panic last year. >"Following the events of September 11, there was a call to introduce a >type of 'identity card' system. We said we would not be giving a knee-jerk >reaction in the wake of this terrorism and we have stuck to that," he >said. Home Office estimates put the cost of the scheme over the next 13 >years between #1.3bn, if simple plastic cards were used, and #3.1bn, for >hi-tech computerised cards. Holders could be asked to pay for the cards >through a #10-#18 hike in the cost of driving licences and passports from >the current charges of #29 and #30 respectively. Refusing to register for >a card would probably be a punishable offence, but ministers indicated >that they did not anticipate major efforts to enforce participation. They >expected most people would want to "opt in" to the scheme because they >would be denied services if they did not. Mr Blunkett said he was >"painfully aware" of the need for information on the cards to remain >absolutely confidential, in order to allay concerns over invasion of >privacy. He stressed that the government was "neutral" on the issue, and >would wait until public reaction had been tested before announcing its >plans early next year. Any legislation would not be introduced until the >following session of parliament, and it would take three years to set up >the scheme and a further five or six years before the details of an >estimated 67.5 million UK resident were included on a central database. He >said: "I am not going to disguise my own enthusiasm for an entitlement >card system, but it is for the public to decide whether or not this is >something they would see as useful and making their lives easier. "I have >made it clear that the introduction of an entitlement card would be a >major step and that we will not proceed without consulting widely and >considering all the views expressed very carefully. "I want to see a >far-reaching and meaningful public debate on the issue of entitlement >cards, and a vigorous response from all parts of the community." The >creation of a card scheme could involve every UK resident aged 16 and over >being issued with a new unique personal number. But the Home Office >stressed that no records would be kept on the cards of racial origin, >sexual orientation, religious belief, trade union membership, political >affiliation, health or criminal convictions or charges. "The central >register would not become the depository for a wide range of information >held by different government departments or agencies about individuals," >said today's document. "The government is clear that protection against >intrusion or unauthorised access to personal information is crucial if any >such scheme were to work." The most hi-tech versions of the card could be >used for a variety of functions, ranging from benefit applications to an >EU-wide travel document, a library card or public transport season ticket. >The Association of Chief Police Officers' spokesman on entitlement cards, >Staffordshire chief constable Roger Baker, said: "We are pleased to see >that the government has ruled out a card which would be compulsory for >people to carry and produce to the police on demand. "Calling the card an >entitlement card strikes the right note, stressing that the card should >help people get the services they are entitled to, rather than being seen >as a policing measure." John Abbott, director general of the National >Criminal Intelligence Service, said: "With the large-scale migration of >people throughout continents, identity of individuals is becoming >increasingly important for those of us who provide actionable intelligence >to law-enforcement agencies to fight organised crime and volume crime. "An >entitlement card could have a major impact in the prevention of certain >areas of organised crime - eg widespread benefits fraud." - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: Click Here ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V11 #218 ********************************