From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V11 #215 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Tuesday, July 2 2002 Volume 11 : Number 215 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Young, Who, Stones [Sebastian Hagedorn ] Maiden bass [The Great Quail ] Re: Ask not for whom ... [guapo stick ] Re: Old Fart speaks out [Michael R Godwin ] The Who's Left tour ["Russ Reynolds" ] musical gods [drew ] For What its Worth ["No Name" ] Re: The Who's Left tour [overbury@cn.ca] Re: For What its Worth [Michael R Godwin ] Re: For What its Worth [overbury@cn.ca] Re: a lot of things in the last digest [guapo stick ] RE: Interesting and Who [hamish_simpson@agilent.com] Re: Minority Report [guapo stick ] Re: Solaris and time [guapo stick ] felt she had a hook in her head ["Natalie Jane" ] RE: Ask not for whom ... ["Poole, R. Edward" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 16:17:44 +0200 From: Sebastian Hagedorn Subject: Re: Young, Who, Stones - --On Tuesday, July 02, 2002 15:22:26 +1200 James Dignan wrote: > For the Who, I'd search for "Meaty Beaty Big > and Bouncy". That one isn't available in Germany (Europe?) ... - -- Sebastian Hagedorn Ehrenfeldg|rtel 156 50823 Kvln http://www.spinfo.uni-koeln.de/~hgd/ Being just contaminates the void - Robyn Hitchcock ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 10:37:35 -0400 From: The Great Quail Subject: Maiden bass Mike writes, > Quail on the bass: It's actually happened a few times, in public, and it wasn't pretty. >> And I've always had a soft spot for Iron Maiden's Steve Harris. > > That's a cold sore. Good God! "Bomber Harris"; I'd forgotten about him. This > from someone who owned 'Killers'.. Every once in a while I'll get drunk, throw on some Maiden, and totally ROCK THE FUCK OUT. "Powerslave" rules. Man, I'm hearing it my head right now! > And Quail, isn't your Rush show coming up? I expect an effusive review. July 15! And I have managed to convince one LJ Lindhurst to go as well -- my first Rush show with a girlfriend on my arm, hanging eagerly on my every detailed explanation! ("Ah, that's the Hentor Barbarian bass, not the Rickenbacker....") Vince writes, > Once again, TGQ has succeeded in making me aroused. hmmmm, if he had longer > hair, a higher voice, hmmmmmmmmmm.......... : ) I look good in falsies, you know. > Steve Harris is amazing. I've seen Iron Maiden in concert 3 times and if I'm > not incorrect, Harris writes most of the songs. Yeah, most of the good ones, at least! All Bruce's songs are invariably about, uh, dueling with swords. (Not hard to imagine from an Olympic-quality fencer.) > Another recommendation.....Geezer Butler when he was in a zone, a la "Heaven > and Hell", some of the most melodic bass playing I'd heard in the midst of > heavy metal grunge. I was going to mention Geezer as another lad close to my heart! Not the best player of the bunch, but he knew his place, and knew when to deploy power or subtlety.... - --Q ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 10:33:27 -0400 From: guapo stick Subject: Re: Ask not for whom ... when we last left our heroes, No Name exclaimed: >Nat--that link you sent in didnt work! I love reading bad reviews of >Robyn. It gets my blood boiling in a pleasingly self-righteous way. I get >to mutter stuff like "naf git" under my breathe and feel very superior. I >-hate- to be robbed of this pleasure. here's the text: http://pitchforkmedia.com/record-reviews/h/hitchcock_robyn/robyn-sings.shtml Robyn Hitchcock Robyn Sings [Editions PAF; 2002] Rating: 6.5 [Excerpts from transcript of Crisis Hotline call, 12:34am, 5/15/02] Operator 1: Sir, what do you mean you're breaking your dishes and beating your kids and you don't know why? Caller: I don't know what it means! Aren't you supposed to help me figure it out? Why the hell else do you exist? Operator 1: Sir, try to calm down. I can hear that you're frustrated. Caller: Of course I'm frustrated! Duh! You would be too! Operator 1: But sir, I didn't call the Crisis Hotline tonight. Let's not make this about me. [The caller's response here is unintelligible except for what sounds like the words "shenanigan ass" and "Robyn Hitchcock."] Operator 1: Breathe, sir. Try to breathe. How about I count and you inhale and exhale along with my counting? Caller: I don't think you're taking this threat seriously enough. Have you considered what would happen if this double CD were left in a time capsule, and the rest of the world was destroyed in a war over oil so people could drive to their tanning beds and botox injections, and this thing was all that was left of Bob Dylan's legacy after the destruction? [Operator 1 was silent here. She reported to her supervisor that she did not know what to say.] Caller: Hello, operator? Jesus! Think about it! Anyone who heard these sixteen covers and thought they had heard Dylan-- that would be like thinking you'd seen some painter's masterpiece because you saw a postcard of it! The crap-recorded acoustic guitar on the first disc must be being strummed by a mannequin! [At this point, Operator 1 believed that the Caller had begun talking to someone else in his proximity. On the tape, he evidently told someone to "go away," because "Daddy's putting up special shelves."] Operator 1: Sir, are you still there? Caller: Yeah. Kids these days, huh? Operator 1: They're something. Caller: They really are. So, are you getting it yet? Operator 1: What I'm hearing is that you think someone's going to try to trap Bob Dylan in a capsule. Caller: That's not what I said at all. Do you even listen to Bob Dylan? Operator 1: No, sir. Caller: Who do you listen to? Operator 1: Country. Kenny Chesney, Alan Jackson... Caller: Hell, you wouldn't know country if it served you under a heat lamp in an All-U-Can-Eat buffet. Get me somebody else. I will burn this house down if you don't connect me with someone who knows who Bob Dylan and Robyn Hitchcock are! [Operator 1 patched the Caller through to Operator 2, who claimed familiarity with whatever the Caller was talking about. The tape didn't pick up until mid-conversation.] Operator 2: I thought the liner notes were only mildly self-indulgent and even kind of charming. Especially when Hitchcock compared Dylan to Monty Python's reluctant messiah Brian, and when he wrote about how, the first time he heard "Desolation Row," he thought Dylan was saying "Destination Roll." Caller: Yeah, but the song-order listing on the first CD is screwed up! Just by the time "It's All Over Now, Baby Blue" came on, I wanted the coffeehouse proprietor to interrupt and say for him to give someone else a chance at open mic night. Operator 2: Sir, Hitchcock doesn't purport to be trying to 'interpret' Dylan's songs. I think it was a very cool gesture, to a mentor. Hitchcock is saying 'thank you' to Dylan, in a way. Caller: I don't know, man. His restagings are as hackneyed as Gus Van Sant's Psycho! He totally botches "4th Time Around"! I didn't pay for two damn blooper CDs! Operator 2: I find the full-band rendition of "Visions of Johanna" really powerful, the way they soft-produced it for that retro feel. And the acoustic versions of the two more recent Dylan songs, the nihilist "Not Dark Yet" and the humanist "Dignity," hold up beside obvious jukebox fare like "Tangled Up in Blue." Caller: But that breathy vocal inflection for 'important' or 'intense' lines strikes me as so fake. He sounds like Willow marveling at Madmartigan! There's some murky quantity, some American idiom, missing. The same way Americans make goons of themselves doing Shakespeare, he makes a goon of himself doing Dylan. Hitchcock misses the spontaneity of Dylan's enunciation and forces a predictable pattern on the lyrical rhythm. His version of the whitey-blues swagger of "Leopard-Skin Pillbox Hat" is straight-up square! Operator 2: Sir, do you fancy yourself an amateur rock critic? Caller: What does that even mean? Is there any such a thing as a 'professional' rock critic, whom lawyers can summon to testify in cases? 'We need an official diagnosis of Yankee Hotel Foxtrot, quick! Help, we don't know what to think about The Soft Bulletin!' Fuck! Operator 2: I was just saying that you might try listening to Hitchcock's earlier work solo, and his two bands. Caller: Yeah, there's good stuff, but he's second-tier next to Dylan, right? He's like Pepsi, or K-Mart. Operator 2: Try to focus on something positive, sir. Caller: Okay, okay. Disc two is pretty good, the one where he re-enacts the Royal Albert Hall/'Judas' concert. Some of that stuff's top-notch homage, actually. High energy. He cusses well on that raucous "Ballad of a Thin Man." The band rips up "I Don't Believe You" and "Just Like Tom Thumb's Blues." And Hitchcock works himself into an inspired, endearing, middle-age rage on disc two. I love some of it, I think. Operator 2: That CD came out a long time ago as a promo called Beautiful Queen. Caller: What a stupid thing to know. What I was saying was, the best stuff on these discs only increases the sting of the lame stuff. And what England-covers-America album do my kids have to look forward to in 2025, if there is a 2025? Liam Gallagher doing Beck? [Caller groans, bangs the phone against some surface, possibly a tile floor, says something unintelligible except for the words "irony hostage," and then asks someone to "go get Daddy's lucky pliers" before disconnecting. No update is available at this time.] - -William Bowers, May 16th, 2002 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 15:39:19 +0100 (BST) From: Michael R Godwin Subject: Re: Old Fart speaks out On Mon, 1 Jul 2002, No Name wrote: > As for Elvis the P--I have two Elvis modes. The first one is a liking for > the older stuff, like "Mystery Train" or "Baby Lets Play House." The original Sun Records are just great. 'Blue Moon of Kentucky' and 'Milk Cow Blues Boogie' are terrific too. And I also like many of the pre-Army RCA hits, like 'Heartbreak Hotel', 'Don't Be Cruel' and 'Hound Dog'. But he was already in a rut after half a dozen of those, and things like 'Teddy Bear', 'Good Luck Charm' and 'Treat Me Nice' show a definite fall-off even before the army stint. > The second one is a --this is so fucking bad its good. "Suspecious > Minds" and "Hunka Hunk of Burning Love" fall into that categorty. I > have always thought the end of "Hunka Hunk..." was one of the funnest > things in all rock n roll. Don't forget "The wonder of you" and "I can't help falling in love" :) > I wonder what would have happend to Holly(who in alot of ways is -alot- > easier to like) if he hadnt died young. Well, the last records are those New York sessions where he has an orchestral backing and King Curtis on sax: things like 'Early in the Morning' and 'Reminiscing', which show an interest in Ray Charles-style soul music. I was at a Georgie Fame gig recently where Fame was describing how Eddie Cochran introduced him to Ray Charles. Eddie featured 'Hallelujah I Love Her So' and 'What'd I Say' in his act, so both Buddy Holly and Eddie Cochran were open to these influences. On the other hand, Buddy was also recording mushy things like 'True Love Ways' and 'Raining in My Heart' (which he did very well) so he might just have become another ballad singer. However, I don't think that he had the voice to become an "all-round entertainer", which was the goal of many pop stars in those days. My guess is that he would have moved back into country music, but more sophisticated than the old Buddy and Bob records, and with a tinge of soul music. Remember he was writing with Waylon Jennings shortly before he died. And didn't Bob Dylan play the piano for Buddy on one tour? Now that would have been a songwriting partnership to match the Wilburys ... - - MRG n.p. "It's so easy to slip", Little Feat ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 08:16:46 -0700 From: "Russ Reynolds" Subject: The Who's Left tour >> The Who tour -- >> >> with Jack Bruce and Ginger Baker! > > That's the best suggestion I've heard so far. I want to see > that band! Hadn't thought of that one. What DID occur to me, and stop me (as if you could) if this has already been mentioned because I haven't read a digest thoroughly in about a week, but think about this: Who's Dead: Drummer, Bass Player. Beatles Alive: Drummer, Bass Player. you don't think THAT tour would be a money maker? - -rUss, who nonetheless would rather have seen the four dead guys play together. np: A Quick One (While He's Away) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 08:54:49 -0700 From: drew Subject: musical gods Thanks to all of you for your suggestions. Without going into detail I'll say that I have access to a fairly decent selection of music that I dip into from time to time to try out albums and artists. "Meaty, Beaty, Big & Bouncy" is in that selection, along with several other seminal Who albums, and a few Neil Young albums are in there, including "Harvest." So I'll let you know how the pilgrimage goes. I haven't checked for Kinks but I'd be surprised if they're not there, and of course I mentioned Hot Rocks. Drew ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 15:57:24 +0000 From: "No Name" Subject: For What its Worth JFTR, Im against the death penelty not just because of the violence it does to a possible-murderer, but also because of the violence it does to us. And while I dont oppose sport hunting as strongly, Im also extremely wary of it for the same reason. It hardens us in ways which once may have been necissary for survival, but are now neither necissary nor expediant. - -------------------- RossT: >someday I'm going >to do a big post about how I REALLY HATE THE >BEACH. Then I'll have to explain how I can >hate the beach yet love music from New Zealand >or even Robyn Hitchcock. My rebutall essay is already half written. Thanks for the warning;-) But let me make one off-the-top-of-my-head guess. You burn easily, right;-) >The Who tour -- with Jack Bruce and Ginger Baker! You rule!:-) Ive tried to imagine the Whotles, but someone I just can't picture Ringo in Moon's seat. Its like they are two repelling magnets. - ------------------------ Me: >>"Nowadays Clancy Cant Even Sing"(thou not Young, I dont think)) Rex: >Written by Young, sung by Furay. Thanks. If I ever did get a time-machine, one thing Id programm it for is one night where I could catch both the Byrds and Bufallo Springfield live. Hmmm, and maybe the Loovin Spondful were in LA at the same time too. Niiicccce fantasy. - ------------------------ Ross0: >If you were in my livingroom and wanted to hear some Who, I'd probably put >on Who's Next and Quadrophenia before Tommy. And "Mary Ann with the Shaky Hands" and "I Can See For Miles" and "The Good's Gone" and ... . Which Quad, the one they rereleased with the movie or the original? - ------------------ Drew: >I'm particularly interested in how you knew you were dealing with the Christ, and truly; I'd be worried that I saw Jesus merely because I grew up surrounded by Christians and understood spiritual reality through their filters. Well, its quite possible its Jesus Christ cause of cultural filters. I don't have a problem with that. As for the full particulars of conversion, like Wells the Wise I am a tad cautious because its not easily expressible. Its like asking for a public recounting of loosing your virginity. (Yes, I know it was an earlier thread but my answer was fairly veiled.) And get thee a recording of "Cinnamon Girl":-) - -------------------- James: >and Pay the Price, Sit Down i think I love You, et al. Buffalo Springfield >are a much neglected musical wonder IMHO. Or "Go and Say Goodbye" or "In the hour of Not Quite Rain." - --------------------- Godwin: >PS My favourite Springfield tracks are Flying on the Ground is Wrong, Kind Woman, and Rock'n'Roll Woman. Didn't Yes used to perform 'Everydays', or have I made that up? How did I forget FOTGIW. For only a few albumns, an amazing amount of good songs. And nobodies yet mentiones "4 Days Gone." >n.p. Darkness Darkness, Youngbloods. What a record! Are you -trying- to call me by name? That is another of my all time adolescent(and not so adolescent) fave raves. Very cathartic. Kay "Your hair is reminiscent of a digesting yak." Surrealist compliment generator. _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jan 1980 02:44:15 -0500 From: overbury@cn.ca Subject: Re: The Who's Left tour On 2 Jul 02, at 8:16, Russ Reynolds wrote: > Hadn't thought of that one. What DID occur to me, and stop me (as if you > could) if this has already been mentioned because I haven't read a digest > thoroughly in about a week, but think about this: > > Who's Dead: Drummer, Bass Player. > Beatles Alive: Drummer, Bass Player. > > you don't think THAT tour would be a money maker? Yes, but a mismatch. Baker and Bruce have the chops and the agression the Who needs. Macca could do some interesting things with the more melodic Who numbers, but Ringo? Somebody else did mention that combo already. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 17:07:09 +0100 (BST) From: Michael R Godwin Subject: Re: For What its Worth > Godwin: > >n.p. Darkness Darkness, Youngbloods. What a record! On Tue, 2 Jul 2002, No Name wrote: > Are you -trying- to call me by name? That is another of my all time > adolescent(and not so adolescent) fave raves. Very cathartic. No, I just can't help liking a record that finishes: "Emptiness! Emptiness!" ding ding dig-a-ding dig-a-ding DING! - - MRG ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jan 1980 02:57:01 -0500 From: overbury@cn.ca Subject: Re: For What its Worth On 2 Jul 02, at 15:57, No Name wrote: > Ross0: > >If you were in my livingroom and wanted to hear some Who, I'd probably put > >on Who's Next and Quadrophenia before Tommy. > > And "Mary Ann with the Shaky Hands" and "I Can See For Miles" and "The > Good's Gone" and ... . Oh my, yes! And Pictures of Lily! And Happy Jack. Tommy would find its way to the playlist, but only if I saw the aforementioned material was going over well. If you don't get that stuff, I don't think you'd get Tommy. I probably play Tommy least of the Who in my collection, though it's not because I don't like to hear it. > > Which Quad, the one they rereleased with the movie or the original? I'd forgotten there were two. I have the original, and don't think I've ever heard the other. Am I missing out? I did see the movie when it came out, but don't remember what I heard. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 12:09:27 -0400 From: guapo stick Subject: Re: a lot of things in the last digest when we last left our heroes, matt sewell exclaimed: >Multiple universes exist apparently, according to some scientific geezer >here in Oxford, experimenting with photons and the statistics of chance. >He would fire a handful (ie. less than 10) at a sheet of metal with two >gaps in it, the photons would travel through the gaps in roughly even >amounts. Things got very strange when he fired a single photon at the >sheet - photons would appear through both gaps. He concluded the spare >photon came from another universe. Did it really? Well, I've absolutely >no idea, being next to being completely uneducated... I don't know much >about science, but I know what I like..! for a good, if challenging, read on this -- tied into a "theory of everything" along with epistemology, computer science and evolution -- check out david deutsch's _the fabric of reality_. it's kinda pop science, but extremely thought-provoking. the bit about separate instances in time actually being separate universes messed me up almost as much as the re/search book on industrial culture. woj ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 10:15:19 -0600 From: hamish_simpson@agilent.com Subject: RE: Interesting and Who > Interesting copyright ruling here: > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml? > xml=/news/2002/07/02/ublue.xml&sSheet=/portal/2002/07/02/ixport.html > Apparently the fact that Bobby Valentino added a fiddle part to 'Young at > heart' makes him into a co-author of the song. Does this mean that anyone > who ever threw together a guitar solo or riff can claim a co-authorship? > Kimberley might be in for a few bob on some of those Soft Boys numbers! > Seriously, I'm surprised at this ruling. What do other people think? I think the point is that the fiddle part "made" the song. It is a good song but the fiddle part is very distinctive and lifted the whole song IMHO. Of course this is all very subjective and I just happen to think that BV is the absolute dog's bollocks so I could be biased! And on the Who debate I only own "Live at Leeds" which kicks the pants out of all the studio stuff I've heard/borrowed/fenced. I won't get into the pointless "best bass player on the planet ever" debate (especially since no one mentioned me or RossO when even Twat Taylor gets listed) but I can only think of one person who would fit properly in style and also to fit in with the groups "status", and that's my fellow Scot Jack Bruce. Of course what they should really do is fold! :) (H) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 12:11:33 -0400 From: guapo stick Subject: Re: Minority Report when we last left our heroes, Mike Runion exclaimed: >Now, let me finish by saying that I rented "Hedwig and the Angry Inch" a few >weeks back and was completely rocked by it. It's the first movie I can >remember keeping all 5 days and watching multiple times. ditto. it intrigues me that two "rock musicals" -- this one and rocky horror -- seem to capture the musical essence of rock'n'roll so much more than classic rock records. then again, maybe i'm just listening to the wrong records. woj ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 12:15:30 -0400 From: guapo stick Subject: Re: Solaris and time when we last left our heroes, Sebastian Hagedorn exclaimed: >Has anybody else seen something other than "Lola rennt"? we watched "der Krieger und die Kaiserin" ("the princess and the warrior" on these shores) a couple weekends and i really enjoyed it. can't really put my finger on why or how though -- i don't think about movies in that way (which is why i rarely take part in the film critic discussions here) - -- but i found its slow pace and unfolding very intriguing. woj ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 09:23:36 -0700 From: "Natalie Jane" Subject: felt she had a hook in her head >There's no way in hell I could buy an album called >"Meaty Beaty Big & Bouncy." Even if it were recorded >by Pansy Division. Maybe if it were recorded by Joy >Division. Buy it anyway. I saw Pansy Division once. The bassist wore a gold sequinned dress. I enjoyed them, but at one point a friend of mine said, "Gee, do you think they're gonna play a song about being gay next?" > > Hmm, but then you might miss "Like a Hurricane" or > > "Needle and the Damage > > Done" or "A Man Needs a Maid" which are sorta mid-period? > >I've heard all those and I'm not eager to hear them >again. I admit I'm not a big Neil fan, though I like to shout "NEEEEIILLL!!!" whenever I see him on TV, and I have a lot of respect for him. "The Needle and the Damage Done" is one of the few heroin songs I really like. The others include: Anything by the Velvet Underground "Cold Turkey" "Needle in the Hay" And that's about it. >Nat--that link you sent in didnt work! I love reading bad reviews of Robyn. http://pitchforkmedia.com/record-reviews/h/hitchcock_robyn/robyn-sings.shtml If this doesn't work, go to pitchforkmedia.com and look in the reviews under H. Keep in mind that I am posting this link because I cannot imagine why anyone would buy or listen to this record, and this review simply confirms my prejudice. Was listenin' to some records from my tawdry college days recently... The Blake Babies' "Sunburn" is much milder than I remember, and tainted by Juliana Hatfield's crappy later career (anyone remember the immortal lines "I hate my sister, she's such a bitch"?). I still like "Out There," my theme song from when I was 19. They were the first club gig I ever went to, I think. I met Juliana and she was very nice. I hear she's changed a lot. So today I was listening to the Throwing Muses' "The Real Ramona." Also much milder than I remember, and lacking the visceral punch of their earlier stuff. It's enjoyable, though, and there's some really good songs on it. I like "Counting Backwards," "Golden Thing," and a few others. I also like hearing Kristin and Tanya harmonize. uh-huh, gnat "I could be a sad lover, and hate death" the gnatster p.s. New Flaming Lips soon... soon... I hear they're touring with Modest Mouse, Cake and De La Soul... weird. They're not coming to Portland. Blah. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jan 1980 03:11:43 -0500 From: overbury@cn.ca Subject: Re: Minority Report On 2 Jul 02, at 12:11, guapo stick wrote: > ditto. it intrigues me that two "rock musicals" -- this one and rocky > horror -- seem to capture the musical essence of rock'n'roll so much more > than classic rock records. Boy, are we at odds on that one. Unless rock'n'roll's essence is cabaret and WWF, I can't agree. Not that rock hasn't occasionally become cabaret and WWF -- but I like to think that represents the decay of r'n'r. > then again, maybe i'm just listening to the wrong records. Get Who's Next! (god, I'm sounding like a Machead now!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 12:32:59 -0400 From: guapo stick Subject: Re: Minority Report > > ditto. it intrigues me that two "rock musicals" -- this one and rocky > > horror -- seem to capture the musical essence of rock'n'roll so much more > > than classic rock records. > >Boy, are we at odds on that one. Unless rock'n'roll's essence is >cabaret and WWF, I can't agree. not the visual aspects. if you just listen to the hedwig soundtrack, there is some cabaret, but it's not key to the music. well, i don't think so anyways. strip away hedwig's vocals and i still think you have some rocking tunes -- even the ballads. woj ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 12:36:56 -0400 From: "Poole, R. Edward" Subject: RE: Ask not for whom ... >Shell: >>all claims of magic, esp, mind control, any aspect or part of the >>"supernatural" is nothing but food for the ignorant. Kay: >Has anyone on Feg ever had an "uncanny" expereince. Something for which our >present theories do not seem to account for? I'm sure those experiences -- not broken-clock-working experiences, but ones involving unusual occurrences are charged with extra personal meaning or "messages" -- are quite common in any given sample of the population (I mean one or so per customer, not that these are daily happenings). There may be no easy way to explain why, mechanically, your clock acted in this manner -- though this isn't to concede that a physical explanation is possible, I'm certain it would be if all the facts were known (which may well be impossible). If you could describe the location/energy state of every sub-atomic particle in your vicinity at the time of this event (and please don't tell me about heisenberg's or bohr's work at this point; unless, of course, you would like to argue that quantum mechanics provides a door through which free will may escape the prison erected by physical determinism. My conversational familiarity with, say, the uncertainty principle, doesn't give me the tools necessary to tackle this argument, but it intrigues me with its surface charm), I'm confident you could describe the forces at work on your clock that caused its behavior. That doesn't account for the timing, the coincidence, the "message" involved in these elements coalescing, right? I would suggest that the physical world is indifferent to such interpretations that we use to label our experiences. In terms of the acceleration & trajectory & velocity & wind resistance & whathaveyou, the lump of metal that blasted JFK's skull is indistinguishable from the similar flight of any other lump of metal, not resulting in such human consequences. If some strange combination of factors could cause your clock to behave in that way, they could have done so while you were visiting relatives in utah. Or another way to look at it, if you had decided to get the clock fixed the week before, that same unusual set of circumstances may have had no noticeable effect. Both how you observe physical phenomena (not "sudden build up of atmospheric pressure" or whatever, but rather "sudden movement of broken clock") and the interpretation you place on those results, is dependent on the human context. Maybe there is something 'spiritual' to the way we understand/process the experience these type of events, and maybe that says something about the way we are set-up or taught to process information. Maybe the existence of that capacity suggests something interesting about human thought. Maybe that sensory or mental experience is a result of one cascade of neural firings suddenly crossing paths with another, and the fact that we experience it on the macro level of thought in the way we do is simply epiphenomenal -- essentially a shadow cast by the processes at work at the micro level, but which has no more ability to predict or influence those processes than your shadow has to cause you to walk in one direction or another. Either way, it just seems to me that the importance or explanation or perception of these events has everything to do with our minds and little or nothing to do with our ability (or lack thereof, given imperfect data) to describe them in terms of physical/mechanical processes, rather than as "supernatural" forces at play. - -ed ============================================================================This e-mail message and any attached files are confidential and are intended solely for the use of the addressee(s) named above. This communication may contain material protected by attorney-client, work product, or other privileges. If you are not the intended recipient or person responsible for delivering this confidential communication to the intended recipient, you have received this communication in error, and any review, use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, copying, or other distribution of this e-mail message and any attached files is strictly prohibited. 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