From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V11 #122 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Tuesday, April 16 2002 Volume 11 : Number 122 Today's Subjects: ----------------- For Your Endurement (photos): ["Thomas, Ferris" ] my manifesto ["Natalie Jane" ] Re: bottom line boots [invader woj ] the omega man ["victorian squid" ] RE: my manifesto ["Jason Brown (Echo Services Inc)" ] ferris's pics ["Mike Hooker" ] Re: the omega man [The Great Quail ] Woj lives, and other intelligent beasties ["Spring Cherry" ] Re: bottom line boots [dmw ] Re: my manifesto ["noe shalev" ] Re: Any tickets left for the Croc show? [cmb adams ] Re: Any tickets left for the Croc show? ["Kenneth Johnson" ] playguys [drew ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 10:43:13 -0400 From: "Thomas, Ferris" Subject: For Your Endurement (photos): A few photos from April 12th Bottom Line gig(s) http://www.ochremedia.com/photos/omPhoto.php4?pg=rh020412.php4 (This is all there is, by the way. Unexplained lens flares aside...) ________________________________ Ferris Scott Thomas Lead Programmer The Production Group McGraw-Hill Education 860.409.2612 ferris_thomas@mcgraw-hill.com (email) Never be afraid to try something new. Remember: amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic. This e-mail may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient (or have received this e-mail in error) please notify the sender immediately and destroy this e-mail. Any unauthorized copying, disclosure or distribution of the material in this e-mail is strictly forbidden. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 07:55:19 -0700 (PDT) From: bayard Subject: Jonathan Turner Is the person credited with the "robyn acoustic" photos in _robyn sings_, OUR Jonathan Turner? - -- http://glasshotel.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 09:02:07 -0700 From: "Natalie Jane" Subject: my manifesto Our man on the scene said: >on the testies mattar though, I don't think mr Gore would have done > >better. >after all I think Clinton had a magor key in what happanes now in >Israel >and palestine. >I hate speculating but if it wasn't for him we might not be where we >are >today. Noe, I hate putting you on the spot (I realize everyone's doing that right now), but could you expand on this statement? I was talking to my (mainstream liberal) dad on Sunday and he kept saying that if only Clinton were still in office, things would be so much better now in Isreal. I knew this couldn't possibly be the case, but I didn't have a good counter-argument. As for being off-topic, I cannot help but quote a dearly-departed sage of fegdom: "The death of any mailing list is pouting schoolmarms who complain about off-topic content." I have this theory. Every mailing list, if it's around for long enough and has the right combination of personalities, will hit an "omega point" beyond which off-topic conversation becomes permissible and even desirable. If you look back at early feg digests, everything is strictly on-topic. Robyn, Robyn, Robyn. Favorite songs, favorite shows, favorite shirts, lyric analysis, all that stuff. I believe that the feglist's "omega point" was the Quail's classic "Diaries of Debbie Flosshilde," which prompted a huge flurry of schoolmarming ("What does this have to do with Robyn??"), but eventually everyone grew to accept the fact that intelligent, thoughtful people are not necessarily going to obsess over Robyn every single minute of the day. And gol dingit, I like it that way. I was on Chalkhills for two years and got really, really tired of lists of favorite songs and endless lyrical analyses and gushy paeans to Andy Partridge's genius and all that kind of thing. (Chalkhills does occasionally veer off-topic, but the sheer geekiness of most of its denizens usually keeps it on the straight-and-narrow.) I don't need any more of that, thank you very much. I have a life. (Err... sort of.) I have found out about so many cool things and made some really good friends due to off-topic content on the feglist. In fact, if it weren't for Viv posting long lists of her favorite words back at the beginning of 1999, I would not be in Portland today. (It was my response to her posts that began our friendship.) So viva off-topic content, and down with schoolmarms! Join fegmaniax-announce if you don't like it! Or better yet, join Chalkhills! gnat "If I can't dance, I don't want to join your mailing list!" the gnatster _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 12:23:43 -0400 From: invader woj Subject: Re: bottom line boots when we last left our heroes, mike hooker exclaimed: > ive been working non stop on my bottom line boots. i meant to take some >time, but i'm hooked , i cant tear myself away from it. i'm soliciting >opinions from those who were in attendance. a few comments: 1) there were several tapers at the bottom line. i'm hoping that we can compare and contrast the recordings so that the best-sounding one is the one that makes it out to the world (or, at the very least, the different versions are labelled so folks know which one is which). 2) for the most part, i tend to prefer unretouched recordings for the most part. aside from normalization, about the only thing that i'll do to a recording is try to rebalance the audience applause if it's significantly louder than the music. that said, recordings which have been eq'ed can sound pretty good too, so i guess i'd say that you should either go with the unprocessed audio or the one which you think sounds best. 3) i just listened to my recording of the second set (didn't do the first set since i arrived late and was still frazzled by the traffic which delayed me) and it sounds just fine to me. didn't notice any mismatch between guitar and voice...but i was sitting a bit closer to the stage than you and was practically beneath the pa, so maybe that has something to do with it. woj ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 09:32:47 -0700 From: "victorian squid" Subject: the omega man Wow, Gnat, you really think the "omega point" was that late in the game? It might have been the crest of a wave, but it was hardly the start of the OT revolution. I think the reason the Flosshilde thing upset some people was its tremendous length. The "culture of off-topic" definitely existed prior to that, but I don't think too many people had posted anything -that long- to the list before, RH-related or not. It's possible also that because of its length it was perceived by some listmembers as -aggressively- off-topic, and a good bit nervier than just chattering casually about favorite musicians and authors. loveonya, susan recalling favorite word lists and other such well before Quail's opus Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 09:41:19 -0700 From: "Jason Brown (Echo Services Inc)" Subject: RE: my manifesto > Our man on the scene said: > >on the testies mattar though, I don't think mr Gore would have done > > >better. > >after all I think Clinton had a magor key in what happanes now in >Israel > >and palestine. > >I hate speculating but if it wasn't for him we might not be where we >are > >today. > > Noe, I hate putting you on the spot (I realize everyone's doing that right > now), but could you expand on this statement? I was talking to my > (mainstream liberal) dad on Sunday and he kept saying that if only Clinton > were still in office, things would be so much better now in Isreal. I > knew this couldn't possibly be the case, but I didn't have a good > counter-argument. I ran into a former professor of mine on the bus the other day and I expressed a similar sentiment. He said that Clinton probably would have helped avoid things getting to this point but at the same time he shares a lot of the blame in it all for trying to orchestrate a final settlement at Camp David when a smaller agreement might have been a more prudent step. But he cautioned that he's no expert on the ins and out of it all but the middle east is his field but he has spent the last 30 years studying Yemen not Israel. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 12:49:59 -0400 From: invader woj Subject: Re: For Your Endurement (photos): when we last left our heroes, Thomas, Ferris exclaimed: >A few photos from April 12th Bottom Line gig(s) i've just added a couple of gary "black bart" assa's photos from the late show to fegmania . woj ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 13:22:31 -0400 From: "Mike Hooker" Subject: ferris's pics hi, i just took a look at the pics of the bottom line gig ferris put up, and right away , a sense of deja-vu. it only took one look at the wall to see why. a pic of robyn opening for billy bragg at the beacon in 96, same exact shirt as the one he wore last friday. take at look at my music trading list ( new URL) http://hometown.aol.com/mhooker216/myhomepage/index.html have fun, Mike Hooker ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 14:09:20 -0500 From: The Great Quail Subject: Re: the omega man Susan writes, >I think the reason the Flosshilde thing upset some people was its >tremendous length Hmmm, yes, there was some of that, but I received more than a few baffled and slightly hostile emails to the effect that I was using the Feg List as something of a captive audience for long, off-topic, surreal ramblings.... I for one agree wholeheartedly with James and his endless party metaphor -- I think that hits the ol' nail exactly on the head. We need a FegmaniFAQs! - --Quail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 18:09:38 +0000 From: "Spring Cherry" Subject: Woj lives, and other intelligent beasties Ken W: >Yes, you weren't the first person to mention that about my hair. >What >made anyone think I had dark hair? :) That you're smart;?). As for the porno thing-- my moniters so shot -everybody winds up having purple hair, which -can't- be right. Or can it? - ------------------------ I like the idea of putting a sealed dome over the more determined Isreal/Palestine war-mongers and not opening it again till all the explosions and gun noises stop. There just seem to be so many people on both sides determined to deny peace. Which sucks sea-urchin eggs for all the people of good will who just want to carry on somehow. - ------------------------ CMB Woj lives! Learn to relish off-topic stuff. Have some on cheese. We share a certain sensibility, almost a common language. We all say different things with it cause we all have different stories and different point of views to tell them from(otherwise, why talk at all), but we're also all fluent in this unknown tongue (for which there is no official dictionary, school or translation service) that has more to do with feelings and sensations than intellectualizations, and that is far cooler than any amount of "Robyn rocks sea urchin eggs" talk. (extra feg points if you realize I cribbed all that leangthy bit out of one line's worth of Dylan) - ---------------------- Lunch Country pate(nope, not a vegatarian. And for all I know, there may even be wombat in it)with lettace on pumpernicle, vinager and salt potatoe chips, gingerbread cookies, diet coke. - ------------------------ Jill I love the idea of giving the Jews Bavaria. - ----------------------- Would -love- to hear Robyn cover "Bungalow Bill" - ------------------------ I'd rent. - ----------------------- >Ugh - this isn't going > to start > a gross losing-my-virginity thread, is it?. Boats. Boats are good places. They rock gently in the water. Rocking down by an unlit dock which is far, far, worlds away from your parents bedroom. Actually I still haven't lost myself yet. Well, not completely. - ------------------------ Brian: >Sea Urchins don't have brains. Sorry, but I couldn't let that past. Brian darlin, I know. That was sorta the point. Sea urchins are just blobs under ugly. Yup, another way off-topic childhood description. Spring vac growing up meant a long stay in the Carabeaan in the 60s, often on St Thomas. Since it was a long stay we rented a house called Bluerocks which was on the highest point on the mountains over the harbor. Unbeleievable view. Anyway, it was a way cool classic modern house built to bring the indoors out and the outdoors in. The native rock made walls at odd angles, the dining room was canterlevered over a chasm, there were real bolders in the swimmingpool but my favorite was the staircase--which had a waterfall and pool. Well, as it was, on the beach I was a creature of tidal pools. I built myself little kingdoms amidst them(its amazing what grows and lives there.) Anyway, one day I was so into it I decided to take some home with me. I filled up a few pails with water, fish, algea, and, of course, a few dark spikey sea urchins and deposited them in the stairway pool. The - -freshwater- stairway pool. Well, it was a massacre,reviewing the carnage I realized I'd always been curious how black, ugly ,thorney sea urchins became pale, fragile, engraved globes so I did some disecting. Its was all rather a mess, but I did indeed learn that... Sea Urchins have no brains. I was using it as a metaphor to try and conjure up the proper deluded, juvenile mad-scientist atmosphere. - ------------------------ Noe Incredible story. - -------------------------- Kay "There's a bird outside the window There's a worm inside a book. There's blood all over everything And I don't know where to look." New verse(?from memory?) to Robyn Hitchcock's "Raymond Chandler Evening." _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 11:28:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Carole Reichstein Subject: Any tickets left for the Croc show? Sadly, I will be missing the Seattle show just because I have a million other things going on that weekend. Wah! But a friend of mine who's not on the list is wondering if some nice Feg has an extra ticket she could buy...apparently, the Croc show is sold out. If any Fegs have extra tickets that they wish to sell, please contact me off-list and I can get the two of you hooked up. Missing Robyn already, Carole ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 13:41:57 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: my manifesto At 09:02 AM 4/16/2002 -0700, Natalie Jane wrote: >Our man on the scene said: > >>on the testies mattar though, I don't think mr Gore would have done >> >better. >>after all I think Clinton had a magor key in what happanes now in >Israel >>and palestine. >>I hate speculating but if it wasn't for him we might not be where we >are >>today. > >Noe, I hate putting you on the spot (I realize everyone's doing that right >now), but could you expand on this statement? I was talking to my >(mainstream liberal) dad on Sunday and he kept saying that if only Clinton >were still in office, things would be so much better now in Isreal. I knew >this couldn't possibly be the case, but I didn't have a good >counter-argument. Without taking a public side in the Arab-Israeli Wars, let me just say that it is dang well neigh-impossible to be more pro-Israel than the Clinton Administration. In fact, in the 2000 U.S. presidential election, more than 90% of Arab-Americans voted for Bush/Cheney because in their eyes, any change from Clinton/Gore had to be more pro-Arab. This might be an incremental margin (instead of 100% pro-Israel, only 99.9998% pro-Israel), but it was something. Who knows how that demographic would vote now, given 9/11, Afghanistan, and the current mess in Israel and Palestine, but it's still worth remembering. While I doubt that a Gore administration (or a mythical third-term Clinton administration) would have spent the pre-9/11 months being quite as bellicose, xenophobic, and unilateralist as GW Bush's, I have doubts as to whether their post-9/11 positions would have been appreciably different. In fact, I think Gore as president might have gone beyond what Bush, Cheney, Ashcroft, et al have done, overcompensating lest he be tarred with the "soft/nerd/ninny" brush. later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 14:36:40 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: Re: bottom line boots On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, invader woj wrote: > 2) for the most part, i tend to prefer unretouched recordings for the most > part. aside from normalization, about the only thing that i'll do to a this is especially important with recordings of spinal tap's immortal "tonight i'm going to rock you tonight" - -- d. np the divine comedy _liberation_ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 21:33:39 +0200 From: "noe shalev" Subject: Re: my manifesto noe wrote: > >I hate speculating but if it wasn't for him we might not be where we >are > >today. natalie asked: > Noe, I hate putting you on the spot (I realize everyone's doing that right > now), but could you expand on this statement? I was talking to my > (mainstream liberal) dad on Sunday and he kept saying that if only Clinton > were still in office, things would be so much better now in Isreal. I knew > this couldn't possibly be the case, but I didn't have a good > counter-argument. Well this is a bit twisted but.... Clinton is a great suporter of Israel. he's very popular here too (just before the last two elections for PM here, polls showed he could actually win all israeli candidates for the office!!!!) He was devoted to the peace pfocess and wanted either as result of his sympathy or simply as an ego thing to get a real stable peace situation here. Yet I believe he tended to much to adopt the Israeli point of view on this matter. unlike Bush now who's keeping distance and alongside condemning Arfat, calls for an imediate withdrawal of Israel - he took a side. (which is not a bad thing for us to have the US on our side) I believe that by taking our side he intimidated Arafat. you must understand that the conflict between us and the Palestinians is not a cold business of give and take. prestige, respect and honour take magor role in it. if he would be more objective, he might have stop Barak from doing he's most crucial mistake. not talking to Arafat at the eye level. not putting him down as an occupied party who's a waiting favours. but as an equal party, a partner. the way Peres and Rabin did, Rabin with all his militant history, and the repugnance he felt towards this once an enemy, never patronised Arafat, the way Barak did. Clinton helped Arafat thinking that if he's not accepting Barak offer, than there's no chance for peace. Arafat came to believe that the only astrategy that's right for the palestinian people now is an heroic struggle. an ethos. no one can tell, but if clinton would be more of a neutral mediator, Arafat might have not started that war. the main argument of Sharon that Arafat never realy wanted peace, wouldn't come up. and if Sharon wasn't elected, and the war wouldn't start, I believe we could have nowadays a palestinian state near us, and life could be very nice, in all asppects. if only Clinton tried to perform some arm twisting towards Barak, and more sympathy towards Arafat... but who knows. and by the way, Robyn never wrote any song concerning the way Clinton conducted the Camp David summit (to be on the safe side) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 11:43:04 -0700 (PDT) From: cmb adams Subject: Re: Any tickets left for the Croc show? On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Carole Reichstein wrote: > Sadly, I will be missing the Seattle show just because I have a million > other things going on that weekend. Wah! But a friend of mine who's not on > the list is wondering if some nice Feg has an extra ticket she could > buy...apparently, the Croc show is sold out. If any Fegs have extra > tickets that they wish to sell, please contact me off-list and I can get > the two of you hooked up. I don't think it's sold out. I bought two tickets at Orpheum records yesterday evening, and Ticketweb still shows them as being available. point your friend to: http://www.ticketweb.com/user/?region=wa&query=detail&event=316474 if they buy tickets through ticketweb, they'll need to pay a service fee or something ($1.50 or so) and pick up their ticket at the Will Call window sometime before the show. (during the show is supposedly ok too, but probably not a very good idea) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 11:50:55 -0700 From: "Kenneth Johnson" Subject: NPR/TV thread (dead) NO RH Natalie Jane, you said: "National propaganda radio..." and furthermore on the Robyn list. you have got to be kidding right? That's something my right wing republican father would say (has said! I think he was quoting Rush actually) Where do you get your news/info/radio entertainment from? sure there are corporations that sponsor NPR, but not all corporations are evil or do evil things with their evil money. I hate corporate america as much as the next wage slave or socialist democrat, but I fear calling it national propaganda radio is an oversimplification. Much of NPR's programming is informative and entertaining above and beyond the more commercial outlets. And don't discredit the Public portion of their funding either. I will concede that the larger NPR has drowned out some smaller stations on the band and that is a sad side effect to the system. Those little voices are important and I do support them too. I want them all around, but just because they are small with integrity does not mean their programming is better, more informative, has more coverage, or isn't propaganda itself. Anything could be propaganda to someone. It is an absurd statement (which is why I think it must have first come out of Rush's mouth or some other Republican shill to go with things like Communist/Clinton News Network). I turn to KBOO (in Portland) if I want to hear news of local importance or the items that won't make it pass the evil censors at NPR and they're evil corporate sponsors. But I tune to NPR & PBS for general news and special programs that are more worthwhile in my humble opinion than the loosely organized indie circuit and definitely over the all-corporate media. I would rather have one NPR to oppose the biased slant and chicanery of something like Fox than several small dissonant voices trying to compete. I think both NPR and the smaller outlets are necessary and worthwhile. If something has a higher production value, more range, wider appeal, corporate sponsorship, this does not lessen its relevance or value. This constant worship of all things lo-fi, independent, and obscure is ridiculous. make room for some mainstream good as well. Don't get me wrong, I personally favor the obscure myself, but just because it is produced out of someone's garage or basement does not mean it's better. This smacks of snobbery. Support the little voices yes! but to slander a decent organization based on its size and sponsorship seems weak. and regarding the tee-vee: I too enjoy random TV events (esp. The Simpsons which still manages to be relevant and funny) but I do not watch the tube much at all and refuse to pay for cable. It is, of course, a matter of personal preference (which should not be worn as a badge of honor). I think TV does rot your brain and causes more apathy and inaction than any recreational drug I know off. But to each his/her own (drug). the more the merrier etc. ad nauseum Kenneth ****** "When will our consciences grow so tender that we will act to prevent human misery rather than avenge it?" --Eleanor Roosevelt "I love America more than any other country in the world and, exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually." - -- James Baldwin "What does it matter to the dead, the orphans, and the homeless whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" -- Mahatma Gandhi _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 12:15:56 -0700 From: "Kenneth Johnson" Subject: Re: Any tickets left for the Croc show? I bought A ticky myself online from the Croc website yesterday myself. I hope they are not sold out as I wanted to get a few friends from Seattle area on board. I am travelling North from Portland on Sunday Afternoon and returning after the gig. Is there anyone who needs/would like to ride share? >apparently, the Croc show is sold out. If any Fegs have extra > > tickets that they wish to sell, please contact me off-list and I can get > > the two of you hooked up. > >I don't think it's sold out. > >I bought two tickets at Orpheum records >yesterday evening, and Ticketweb still >shows them as being available. > >point your friend to: >http://www.ticketweb.com/user/?region=wa&query=detail&event=316474 > >if they buy tickets through ticketweb, >they'll need to pay a service fee or >something ($1.50 or so) and pick up their >ticket at the Will Call window sometime >before the show. > >(during the show is supposedly ok too, >but probably not a very good idea) yeah just go to the crocodilecafe.com website too! Kenneth ****** "When will our consciences grow so tender that we will act to prevent human misery rather than avenge it?" --Eleanor Roosevelt "I love America more than any other country in the world and, exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually." - -- James Baldwin "What does it matter to the dead, the orphans, and the homeless whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" -- Mahatma Gandhi _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 12:19:16 -0700 From: "Jason Brown (Echo Services Inc)" Subject: RE: Any tickets left for the Croc show? > yeah just go to the crocodilecafe.com website too! Actually it is www.thecrocodile.com! crocodilecafe.com is some theme restaurant chain. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 12:43:51 -0700 (PDT) From: FS Thomas Subject: Re: ferris's pics - --- Mike Hooker wrote: > hi, > i just took a look at the pics of the bottom > line gig ferris put up, and > right away , a sense of deja-vu. it only took one > look at the wall to see > why. a pic of robyn opening for billy bragg at the > beacon in 96, same exact > shirt as the one he wore last friday. I thought he said something about the shirt being new? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 13:04:22 -0700 From: drew Subject: playguys I never dated him (nor wanted to), but an ex-housemate of mine turned up in porn at least once. He was and is a brilliant guy, excellent (often excessive) in every regard. He effortlessly picked up a doctorate in neuroscience or cognitive psych or whatever it was, and in his spare time hit the gym obsessively and became a male model. He also took lots and lots of acid and other drugs but that's another story. The point is that he turned up in an issue of Playguy magazine a few years back. If you don't know, let's just say that Playguy is not known for its articles. I won't claim never to have bought any issues, but fortunately I didn't stumble across -- let's call him Gareth -- Gareth's layout by accident. A fellow on a newsgroup where Gareth and I both posted said, "isn't that him in the January issue?" I went to my local newsstand (which at the time was called Rochester Custom Leather) and took a look, and lo and behold, there was Gareth in a nice apartment and nothing else. When I knew him, Gareth was just starting to get buff, but he still looked vaguely human and not all ripply and plastic like bodybuilders look, and more importantly he wore glasses and had very long purple hair and painted fingernails. This Gareth had a sandy blond Caesar cut, contacts (I assume), and more little muscly bulges than a He-Man figure. In case you didn't know, this is not the kind of guy I go for, but even if it had been I think the weird queasy feeling in my stomach at seeing a friend of mine in a porn mag probably wouldn't have disappeared. So if I found out an ex-girl- or -boyfriend of mine had done some porn, yeah, I'd definitely check it out. I might or might not be comfortable with owning it, though. I agree that porn as it's commonly done objectifies its subjects; I don't necessarily agree that this is always morally wrong; but there's something very unsettling about the transition between knowing someone in real life and seeing their buffalo shot on a magazine page. On the not always morally wrong point: note that Gareth still has a PhD and has profited big-time from his modeling, and is still probably smarter than any random pair of us put together. If he wants to objectify himself, however temporarily, more power to him. Drew ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V11 #122 ********************************