From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V11 #52 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Wednesday, February 13 2002 Volume 11 : Number 052 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Do the Dolphin ["Abydos *" ] Re: Out in Ballard looking soulful at the pines ["Jason R. Thornton" ] a plea for another list [Jim Davies ] Re: Do the Dolphin [Tom Clark ] RE: a plea for another list ["Brian Huddell" ] RE: a plea for another list [bayard ] RE: a plea for another list ["Jason R. Thornton" ] Documentary Short Oscar Nominee ["Voodoo Ergonomics" ] Re: Documentary Short Oscar Nominee ["JH3" ] RE: a plea for another list [Ken Ostrander ] Re: Out in Ballard looking soulful at the pines [gSs ] Re: Postponing Hibernation ["Maximilian Lang" ] Re: Racial profiling [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] actual on-topic post (sort of) [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] RIP ["Bret Bolton" ] RIP [gSs ] stubby [anansi ] Re: pining for the soul [Ken Ostrander ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 21:57:42 +0000 From: "Abydos *" Subject: Do the Dolphin Nat: Just to get this out of the way - I took the Britpop test and apparently I am the Manic Street Preachers. This concerns me. (I think it's because I clicked on the "fuck Tony Blair" option.) You realize we also had the same hobbit name. Is the Internet trying to tell us something? Yes, I also said fuck Tony Blair(or rather, all politicians) also--I figured if I was in a band it would be the sort of band with a dissapearing member. Perhaps myself. Its funny cause, as you know, I don't even think of myself as a leftist. And Nat--its been ages since anyone Ive known has said boy howdy:-) Ken: >anyone see that flick 'day of the >dolphins' with george c scott? the radio show i engineer on >saturdays, >like >humans do, is very dolphin-friendly: Alright. I am now going to blow any cool cookie points I might inadvertently gained. Yes, I saw it. But dolphins are better up close and personal. Growing up my parents took me to St Thomas alot, which was where Lilly(pre-drug burn out) was doing his early work with dolphins. Anyway I got to visit some, and fell in love with the creatures. They're actually, in their own way, abit fierce(they will sucessfully fight off sharks,) benevolent anarchists, incredibly sexual(they -will- indeed fuck anything that moves. Repeatidly) and yes, abit magical. You can feel theres a consiousness there but that its very different from human consiousness. They can swim where we often sink. And they've sussed out far more about us than we about them. Anyway, I would also see them jumping off the shore in Long Island and Cape May and then, for our 10th wedding anniv, Mike and I got corny and went to a refuge place in the Keys(we researched this carefully, not a zoo. When a hurricane was coming the dolphins would get let out into the sea--and would come back after the storm. Hey, they liked the free food.) Anyway, you were sorta just plopped down with the dolphins, who ignore some people and take to others. Ill brag here. I may not have Nat's confidience;-)(BTW, good for you Nat) but the dolphins, well, they took to me. First I was riding around, holding onto one's fin as she pulled me, very fast, thru the water. Then another came up on my other side, I reached out my hand and both were pulling me around the lagoon. It was like flying. They'll also sorta dance with you with both of you bobbing upright and splashing. It was one of the most delightful moments of my life. Pure joy. I know they've been trained to be friendly, but they still seemed to excersie alot of choice about what they wanted to do and with whom. And supposidly its pretty unusual when 2 come around to give a human the kind of extended ride I got. And it made me feel incredibly honored, silly as that sounds. So thanks you for the Onion story. Maybe I just watched Flipper and Diver Dan at too impressionable an age. Or maybe people arent really supposed to live so artificialy seperated from the animal world. Or both. - --------------------- Noe: >I as much as my late murdered friend feel captives of the sharon >government. >being used as gun meat together with the occupied palestinian people, in a >vicious ruthless political game. Noe, that cuts thru all our feg idle chatter with the cruel and aweful truth. I can't tell you how much your post made me stop reading and just take a deep breath. Touching, such eloquent testimony coming against so hidious a fact , -- "used as gun meat" -- that says it all, dosnt it? Sharon, and most military leaders would like us to impersonalize both the "evil" enemy and the "heroic" dead with stupid adjectives that have almost no relationship to life as lived. What you said sounds like life as lived. Thank you for posting. It dosnt matter what you were trying to say. What you - -did- say was important. That to manipulate people as things so as to gain power is, well, heartbreakingly wrong. Kay It is of interest to note that while some dolphins are reported to have learned English -- up to fifty words used in correct context -- no human being has been reported to have learned dolphinese. -Carl Sagan, astronomer and writer (1934-1996) _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:59:37 -0800 From: "Jason R. Thornton" Subject: Re: Out in Ballard looking soulful at the pines At 01:50 PM 2/13/2002 -0500, gSs wrote: >On Wed, 13 Feb 2002, Jason R. Thornton wrote: > > What's so illogical about re-screening passengers randomly, on the > > off-chance that Middle Easterners aren't the only people willing to > hijack, > > or commit acts of mass violence? > >What is so illogical about re-screening certain people who fit the same >profile as all of the people who hi-jacked four airplanes and killed >a few thousand people a few months ago given the off-chance that some of >them might be planning to do it again? I think I've gone over this enough already, but again, because it simply doesn't make sense to assume that the potential criminals of tomorrow are going to fit perfectly and solely the ethnic profile of the perpetrators of a single crime. Nor does it make sense to assume one group of people is more likely than another to engage in criminal behavior, and should be treated unequally, because of the actions of one ethnic-specific group of criminals. If you only look at crimes committed by Middle Easterners, they're the only threat you're going to see. If you look at the tendency toward violence of the human race overall, you'd see a need for a more equitable, thorough system. - --Jason "Only the few know the sweetness of the twisted apples." - Sherwood Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:13:42 -0800 From: "Jason R. Thornton" Subject: Re: Out in Ballard looking soulful at the pines At 02:15 PM 2/13/2002 -0500, you wrote: >On Wed, 13 Feb 2002, Jason R. Thornton wrote: > > >I was just using that as a simple example to show how profiling is used > > >regularly in crime prevention. > > > > No, the example you gave had nothing to do with group profiling, but only > > with an individual's description. > >Here is the example I used: > >'They all say the person was a white man, so should all Chinese women now >be considered suspects?' > >So if I would have instead said: > >They all say the perpetrator is a white male, and the white males in this >area make up less than 2% percent of the population and have either been >indicted or are wanted as suspects in over 99% of the alleged or >perpetrated crimes. In addition to that, we have gotten different >descriptions as far as height, weight and age but the common factor so far >is white male. > >Should we still consider Chinese women as suspects or should we focus on >the white males? You are yet again talking about the specific description of a particular suspect in a committed crime, not the potential criminal behavior of a group of people fitting a specific description. You'd be silly to overlook the criminal *potential* of every group, every individual. If my car stereo is stolen by a white man, and this is witnessed, then the police should be on the tail of a white man for THAT crime, not a Chinese woman. But it makes absolutely no sense to rule out the possibility that a Chinese woman could steal someone else's car stereo. And, you don't go hunting down, harassing and arresting every white man in sight, because they could possibly be stealing car stereos. If your statistics were real, you'd go after the white guy suspected in each particular case, not a Chinese woman, yes. But airline security deals with crime prevention, not the solving of individual crimes that have already occurred. > > What you were doing was justifying a > > racist blame game by advancing an ineffective means of prevention and > > attempting to suggest that since we can profile an individual based on his > > or her physical characteristics, we can then we can in turn profile groups > > of individuals that share physical characteristics based on the actions of > > a few that also share those characteristics. > >Every one of the few so far that has been succesful has fit the profile. >When the few change, so will the profile. It seems to me you're spending more time trying to punish people that look similar to criminals from the past rather than really preparing for the future. Security should be one step ahead, not one step behind. - --Jason "Only the few know the sweetness of the twisted apples." - Sherwood Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 16:12:55 -0600 From: "JH3" Subject: Re: Another dose of Me > Am I the first person to join this group who was not > a Robyn fan to begin with? Funny, but then again there > is such a thing as conversion. We had a guy named "Eb" for a while, but apparently he ran into problems renegotiating his contract with the smoe.org people. Last I heard, he was next in line for the Head Coaching job in Tampa Bay. And speaking of sports, just what is the deal with the background music at the Salt Lake Olympic speed-skating venue? Somehow I doubt that Shirley Manson expected "Cherry Lips" to be used to exhort people to skate faster. It's probably just what she deserves, though... John H. 3 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:26:38 GMT From: Jim Davies Subject: a plea for another list I don't want to read endless, irrelevant emails from people whose opinions on world events, politics, and social issues are about as valid, and interesting, as spam. And yes, I'm happy to post off topic myself. And I love it when others post off topic; it can be really interesting and informative. But there ought to be some kind of minimum ratio. Could we enforce that through majordomo? Maybe it could buffer in separate queues, and merge appropriately? Like, one in every five messages has to mention Robyn, or the Soft Boys, or maybe just music. Heck, I'd even settle for art. Or computing. Alternatively, and more sensibly, perhaps... ...if we had a procedure for announcements that doesn't involve (me) keeping watch on the web site, then people (I) could drop out for a while when the going gets dull, and not be worried that we would miss out on a boat trip, or a change of date for the NY gig. (missing that last piece of info could have been expensive for me) Just a thought x =jim= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:36:38 -0800 From: Tom Clark Subject: Re: Do the Dolphin on 2/13/02 1:57 PM, Abydos * at theyarenotlong@hotmail.com wrote: > > Anyway, you were sorta just plopped down with the dolphins, who ignore some > people and take to others. Ill brag here. I may not have Nat's > confidience;-)(BTW, good for you Nat) but the dolphins, well, they took to > me. First I was riding around, holding onto one's fin as she pulled me, > very fast, thru the water. Then another came up on my other side, I reached > out my hand and both were pulling me around the lagoon. It was like flying. > They'll also sorta dance with you with both of you bobbing upright and > splashing. It was one of the most delightful moments of my life. Pure joy. Last summer my wife went on a week long boat trip off the Bahamas where they swam with wild dolphins almost daily. Coleen was four months into her pregnancy and she was told by one of the guides that the dolphins would be able to sense that. Sure enough at one point a female stopped right in front of Coleen and looked repeatedly between her chest and stomach, as if sensing two heartbeats. She said it was pretty amazing - almost spiritual. The wild dolphins also played "keep away" with a bandana thrown into the water. They would swim around with it on a fin and be chased by the others until it fell off, then the next guy would grab it. Apparently they play this naturally using seaweed. Coleen brought back a 30 minute video of her trip and it looked fantastically cool. - -tc Nw - Olympic Curling! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 16:42:54 -0600 From: "Brian Huddell" Subject: RE: a plea for another list > I don't want to read endless, irrelevant emails from people > whose opinions on world events, politics, and social issues > are about as valid, and interesting, as spam. I think that's an unduly harsh characterization of any of today's players. Woj or someone will explain how to join the "announce" list. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 15:02:19 -0800 (PST) From: bayard Subject: RE: a plea for another list > Woj or someone will explain how to join the "announce" list. from http://fegmania.org/fegmaniax.html : Subscribing to the List To start receiving mail from the list, send one of these commands in the body of a mail message to majordomo@smoe.org. For loose mail: subscribe fegmaniax For the digest: subscribe fegmaniax-digest For news only: subscribe fegmaniax-announce .... in theory, all the important Robyn stuff gets cross-posted to - -announce. Do not forget tapermaniax and lyricsmaniax, lists you could join by the means stated above and dealing recording live Robyn and his lyrics respectively. By the way Jim, I think all the A&M albums suck ;-) =b ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 15:02:58 -0800 From: "Jason R. Thornton" Subject: RE: a plea for another list At 04:42 PM 2/13/2002 -0600, Brian Huddell wrote: > > I don't want to read endless, irrelevant emails from people > > whose opinions on world events, politics, and social issues > > are about as valid, and interesting, as spam. > >I think that's an unduly harsh characterization of any of today's >players. Bah! I dated a girl who really liked spam, especially with eggs. I took it as a compliment. Not of the highest order, but right up there with a comparison to macaroni & cheese or maybe to Froot Loops. - --Jason "Only the few know the sweetness of the twisted apples." - Sherwood Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 15:04:40 -0800 From: "Voodoo Ergonomics" Subject: Documentary Short Oscar Nominee . or did somebody already mention this? also, the date of robyn's seattle gig (april 21st) happens to coincide with a Marco Polo dinner buffet. all fegs welcome! (especially ones that might give me a lift to the show after supper.) _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:17:53 -0600 From: "JH3" Subject: Re: Documentary Short Oscar Nominee > . or did > somebody already mention this? The documentary's all about this guy: http://www.skthoth.com/SKTHOTH/Home_Pagex.html Ahh, to live in New York! John H. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 18:39:41 -0500 From: Ken Ostrander Subject: RE: a plea for another list >> > I don't want to read endless, irrelevant emails from people >> > whose opinions on world events, politics, and social issues >> > are about as valid, and interesting, as spam. >> >>I think that's an unduly harsh characterization of any of today's >>players. > >Bah! I dated a girl who really liked spam, especially with eggs. I took >it as a compliment. Not of the highest order, but right up there with a >comparison to macaroni & cheese or maybe to Froot Loops. yes! wonderful spam! personally, i have little sympathy for anyone ("virtual invalids"?) who complains about content. there are so many different subjects that come and go here that you are free to take or leave whatever you want. in other words, you don't have to read anything you don't want to read. if you get the digest, well that's a real shame. i can sort by name, subject, or date; which is real helpful when i get roughly two hundred messages a day. some of them are even work related. ken "koo-koo for cocoa puffs" the kenster ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:46:03 -0500 (CDT) From: gSs Subject: Re: Out in Ballard looking soulful at the pines On Wed, 13 Feb 2002, Jason R. Thornton wrote: > You are yet again talking about the specific description of a particular > suspect in a committed crime, not the potential criminal behavior of a > group of people fitting a specific description. > > You'd be silly to overlook the criminal *potential* of every group, every > individual. So all I would have to add is: "And we have also received threats, from people who claim to be responsible for these previous crimes, who say that this crime wave will continue but at an even greater pace. And they also say that they are white, men who love big sloppy cheeseburgers and hate dark beer" Are we now justified in profiling not only by race but by gender? gSs ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 18:46:36 -0500 From: "Maximilian Lang" Subject: Re: Postponing Hibernation >My first Robyn show, 87 or 88, the Chestnut Caberet in Philly. >Ken and Max, I made every NY/Hoboken date till '90, so I saw him several >times at the Ritz an Maxwell's. Any distinctive markings for those show? I may be getting senile! I could swear I saw him earlier than that at Maxwell's, maybe it hasn't been registered on the database. I recall him going into a digression during city of Shame about Japanese businessmen or something of the sort. Perhaps I had the date correct, do you keep stubbs or keep a journal to reference these things. My wife can tell me what she had for breakfast in 1975. I know I went to almost all his solo shows at Maxwell's thereafter and somehow missed all the Egyptians shows. I can't believe that he will tour without playing Maxwell's in April...he ALWAYS plays that club. I hope he comes to Philly also. Max _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 18:46:33 -0500 From: "Maximilian Lang" Subject: Re: Postponing Hibernation >My first Robyn show, 87 or 88, the Chestnut Caberet in Philly. >Ken and Max, I made every NY/Hoboken date till '90, so I saw him several >times at the Ritz an Maxwell's. Any distinctive markings for those show? I may be getting senile! I could swear I saw him earlier than that at Maxwell's, maybe it hasn't been registered on the database. I recall him going into a digression during city of Shame about Japanese businessmen or something of the sort. Perhaps I had the date correct, do you keep stubbs or keep a journal to reference these things. My wife can tell me what she had for breakfast in 1975. I know I went to almost all his solo shows at Maxwell's thereafter and somehow missed all the Egyptians shows. I can't believe that he will tour without playing Maxwell's in April...he ALWAYS plays that club. I hope he comes to Philly also. Max _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 18:23:44 -0600 (CST) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: Racial profiling On Wed, 13 Feb 2002, FS Thomas wrote: > I don't see an American (or wester European, for that > matter) taking up the cause of a Holy War forged by a > religion they don't belong to. So maybe they don't "hire" them - but surely you've heard of John Walker Lindh? Richard Reid? An American, and a Western European (by residency), who converted to the cause. Here's a thought: profiling is sometimes used to solve crimes (i.e., catch criminals who've already acted) and other times to prevent them (in theory, at least). In the first case, where there's a clear identity of a suspect, someone fitting the "profile" is legitimately to be questioned - so long as the profile is narrow enough, and not a huge dragnet (like "Middle Eastern or ME-looking men"). But what we're talking about w/airport security is *prevention* - and in the case of prevention, profiling makes no sense, for the reasons Jason (among others) has pointed out. Here's a question to which I haven't seen an answer - and I suspect that if it favored their side, profilers would be publicizing it: how many crimes have been prevented by profiling? That is, how many people, questioned or otherwise detained because they fit a profile, yielded compelling evidence that they were about to commit a crime (sell drugs, bomb a plane, etc.)? Compare that to: how many people are seriously inconvenienced, humiliated, injured or killed, and otherwise damaged psychologically by the practice of profiling? And then: if the particular profile is known, how easy is it for someone dedicated to committing a crime to evade that profile, through disguise, delegation, etc.? Furthermore, where does the logic of profiling stop? Right now, Mr. Thomas is talking about airport security - but why stop there? If we "know" that Middle Eastern men are the "profile group" who are apt to commit terrorism, by every bit of reasoning offered in favor of profiling, it would increase the security of the rest of us to prohibit them from flying, or deport them, or imprison them. And further: most crime, of any type, is committed by men under the age of 30 or so. Lock 'em all up, say I. Those of you who are left roaming free after all this orgy of profiling prophylaxis can breathe easily, since all threats have been removed. (BTW: I must disagree w/whoever said that actions are justified if they prevent even one heinous act. Look - we can prevent all of them - just give everyone lobotomies, tie them in straitjackets, and make sure nothing sharp, heavy, blunt, or explosive is anywhere within miles. (And especially nowhere near Miles.) Freedom has a cost, unfortunately: I wouldn't want to be the one paying it, but complete security comes only with complete unfreedom.) (Returning to reality:) A crisis makes bad reasoning and bad law, since by definition it's a rare case. (As for "who's hijacking planes?" those of us outside of that crime-prone demographic age might remember when the stereotypical hijacker wanted to fly the plane to Cuba...so should we have profiled Cubans, anyone who looked like them, leftists, anyone who fit their "profile"?) - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::Time provides the rope, but love will tie the slipknot, ::and I will be the chair you kick away. __Stephin Merritt__ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 18:25:23 -0600 (CST) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: actual on-topic post (sort of) Hey - does anyone here know Theo who runs the RH MP3 page referenced here a few weeks ago? His hotmail link on that page is dead - and the page doesn't work, so I'd like to get a hold of him. Thanks... - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::we make everything you need, and you need everything we make:: ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 18:34:34 -0600 (CST) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: Racial profiling On Wed, 13 Feb 2002, Jason R. Thornton wrote: > Holy Wars are not the only cause of airline violence. And I know we were originally talking only about airport security & profiling...but if we want to prevent terrorism (we do, don't we?), we have to develop ways to allow ourselves to lick between our... Sorry, got distracted there. What I meant was, "holy wars" and terrorism don't emerge causeless from a vacuum. The best means to prevent terrorism is to ameliorate the conditions that breed it. And y'know what? Try being "profiled" your whole life, and see how long it takes you to start thinking longingly of explosives. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::the sea is the night asleep in the daytime:: __Robert Desnos__ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 18:56:07 -0600 From: "Bret Bolton" Subject: RIP Waylon Jennings ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 18:59:23 -0500 (CDT) From: gSs Subject: RIP Waylon Jennings, 64. http://dailynews.netscape.com/mynsnews/story.tmpl? table=n&cat=51180&id=200202131832000150072 Jennings, a singer, songwriter and guitarist, recorded 60 albums and had 16 No. 1 country singles in a career that spanned five decades. He was inducted into the Country Music Hall of Fame in October. gSs ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:06:47 -0800 From: anansi Subject: stubby > From: "Mike Wells" > > Give it up, Ken. We know there's a Britney one in there. I wonder if I still have my Spice Girls ticket stub? > Michael "I'll show you my O.M.D./Powerstation stub in return" Wells Hey, I like OMD! Even more so now that I've head Dazzle Ships and Architecture and Morality. The Power Station part is pretty embarrassing, though. Drew ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 20:18:27 -0500 From: Ken Ostrander Subject: Re: pining for the soul >An airline screener standing in JFK isn't going to >have your FBI/CIA/NSA dossiere at his fingertips. >He's not going to have the last fifty emails you sent >out, or the numbers of everyone you've called on your >cell phone (nor should he.) What he's got is a good >look at you and, if he's lucky, your real name on a >genuine driver's license. When looking for threats >you have err on the side of caution. ...and search everybody. of course, it seems to me that whoever's out to get us (last i heard, no one's claimed responsiblity for the world trade center thingie) isn't going to do it with hijacked aeroplanes. at least not until we all calm down and get back to business as usual. as someone who undoubtedly has a dossiere on him, i think that folks that don't question their government or make trouble should be able to get express boarding priviledges. hell, put them in extra roomy seats with better food and...oh forget it. >Furthermore, your assertion that "refugee camps in and around Afghanistan >were over flowing by millions and millions and millions and millions and >millions and millions", is, quite simply, not true. hmmm...well, the new york times reported that there were roughly five million afghans that were living on international aid before we began our war against afghans...ahem...terrorism. the figures have been increased by fifty percent to seven and a half million, last i heard. >It *is* true, though that the Taliban were doing a fine job of oppressing >everyone, particularly women and Tajiks, that many Afghans were facing >hunger due to decades of war and drought and that Afghanistan allowed >Al-Queda training camps to operate in the Hindu Kush. i've read that it was after the period of the early ninties, when the soviets had withdrawn and what has been described as the worst period in afghanistan's history took place characterized by brutal acts on the parts of tribal militants all over the country, that the taliban came to power and brought stability to the country. people were actually glad to end this brutal period. it's all relative. bear in mind that the repression of women and minority ethnic groups were going on the whole time. there was a period in the seventies that women had a prominent place in society and government during the years of daoud khan and the republic of afghanistan; but that ended with a soviet-sponsored coup. >> > (How many people have been killed, how >> > many wounded, and how much property damaged by >> > anti-abortion fanatics >> >> They, too, are terrorists and I'm sure are being >> pursued, albeit not with the same fervor. > >by this administration, the only thing they are being sought for is to >give them jobs. but that's another issue. hey, if you're a supreme court justice, you can't be all bad. right? >>Anti-US attacks. Does this include kidnapings? (I >>only ask because of the high percentage of Latin >>American entries in the category. > >This is really the heart of the argument - how one defines "terrorism." If >anything, it should be looked at in the most unbiased, logical fashion >possible, and not in such a way to target specific groups without solving >the overall problem. If you overlook certain crimes just to rule out >specific groups, you're doing nothing more than attempting to justify your >obvious racism. for years, the united states and israel have blocked proposals in the united nations to created a standard international definition of terrorism. why would they do such a thing? well, if you consider that both countries have for decades been perpetrating acts that can easily be defined as terrorism, then they are covering their own asses. ever seen a document that's been "de-classified"? all incriminating evidence has been blacked out. that's national security. one country's "terrorist" is another's "freedom fighter". >It's another thing entirely to target a group as *potential* criminals, >based solely on their ethnicity. "everybody's just gotta keep fucking everybody else 'til we're all the same color". - -j billington bulworth ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V11 #52 *******************************