From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V11 #43 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Friday, February 8 2002 Volume 11 : Number 043 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: fegmaniax-digest V11 #41 [Tom Clark ] Another JH3 attempt at wry humor ["JH3" ] old order [anansi ] Re: your laws do not apply to me [grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan)] Test...ignore. ["Maximilian Lang" ] the Philly hit list, Gwen Stefani and DVD players [Jill Brand ] Hello? ["matt sewell" ] test ["matt sewell" ] Re: test ["Stewart C. Russell" ] Re: test ["matt sewell" ] Re: I seem to be Pulp ["scary mary" ] fufufufufuck [gSs ] April 8 ["Brian Huddell" ] Who's Got the Oldest Diskette? ["Mike Wells" ] What Brit band are you? ["Jason Brown (Echo Services Inc)" ] Look! A New Zealand reference! [The Great Quail ] Fw: Who's Got the Oldest Diskette? ["Mike Wells" ] Re: Who's Got the Oldest Diskette? [Tom Clark ] Re: fufufufufuck [Capuchin ] Re: fufufufufuck [Christopher Gross ] Re: fufufufufuck [FS Thomas ] 0% noel coward, past here [gSs ] Re: fufufufufuck [The Great Quail ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 15:28:48 -0800 From: Tom Clark Subject: Re: fegmaniax-digest V11 #41 on 2/7/02 1:35 PM, barbara soutar at bsoutar@horizon.bc.ca wrote: > Hello, > > I am trying to join in the conversation after reading the digest version of > this interesting newsgroup for several months. Not sure how to do it and if > this method of responding (using the reply button) will even work. > > Barbara Soutar, Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Interesting? Are you sure you have the right list? ;) - -tc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 17:32:01 -0600 From: "JH3" Subject: Another JH3 attempt at wry humor > I am trying to join in the conversation after reading >the digest version of this interesting newsgroup for >several months. Not sure how to do it and if this >method of responding (using the reply button) will >even work. Hey, welcome to the non-digest, Barbara. And I hear you about that whole posting thing -- it NEVER works for me! I must have tried to post at least two dozen really clever and witty things over the last couple of months, and none of them ever seem to show up... I wish I knew what I was doing wrong! Er, wait a minute, what's this button here on the toolbar that says "S-E-N-D ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 16:38:10 -0800 From: anansi Subject: old order > From: Aaron Mandel > > I just listened to this again last night, hoping I'd been wrong about > it, > but man, I don't see how people are even calling it *passable*. I loved > most of Republic. I love Electronic, for crying out loud, so you can't > tell me my standards are just too high. I still think Get Ready sucks. Glad to hear my instincts on this one were correct. I never bothered with Republic and the only Electronic songs I really like are the ones featuring Neil Tennant (except maybe "Get the Message"), so if you didn't like it I doubt I would. Miles's subsequent comments inspire me to weigh in, though as usual I'm ill-informed. I like Movement, actually. I've been planning to pick up Power, Corruption, & Lies for a while. I like Low-Life as long as I skip the first track, which I hate even more than "Confusion" and as much as "Shell-Shock". Never got into Brotherhood, though I did try; I do like Technique, though it slides by a little easier than I'd like it to; and my favorite songs are still "Everything's Gone Green" and "True Faith." So I don't think I'm really qualified to pass judgement myself. :) > From: Ken Ostrander > bernard's lyrics run from the banal to the sappy to the obtuse. > sometimes it clicks and sometimes you just get lost in the groove. > thank god > for mr hook. I agree -- though I can forgive the lyrics. It's the voice I cannot abide. When it's on-key (rare, early on) it's just so strained and wimpy. Hooky's lyrics can be even worse ("Kiss the Chrome" would be the best example) but I actually quite like his voice. > From: "Redtailed Hawk" > > You thought I -meant- what I said about hair/fat ratio? I was just > playing. Oh, it didn't matter to me whether you did or not. I just thought I'd play with it and throw it back. :) > However, I reserve the right to be bitchy if they > are so cluelessly young (like those painfully loud Asian kids who > opened for > Robyn Who would that be? I wonder who's opening for him in SF in April? > REM(it catagorizes people who dont like their early stuff as > "people who dont cry at the end of "Its a Wonderful Life" and should be > avoided at all costs." heh) I've actually never seen "It's a Wonderful Life" and to date have never gone further than moist eyes at any film, ever, but I love REM's early stuff. Go figure! I also finally got around to working my way into VU's Loaded, which is the one I've listened to least so far. It was well worth the effort, as all of you already know, I'm sure. Drew ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 14:10:32 +1300 From: grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan) Subject: Re: your laws do not apply to me >i thought that was only below 40 degrees south in the roarin forties or is >that the place where even god quits bitchin'? huh??? James (below 40 degrees south) James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand. =-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= .-=-.-=-.-=-.- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-. -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= You talk to me as if from a distance =-.-=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time -=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 20:29:57 -0500 From: "Maximilian Lang" Subject: Test...ignore. This group is very quiet today, just checking to see if everything is up and running! Shocked, Max _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 20:58:45 -0500 (EST) From: Jill Brand Subject: the Philly hit list, Gwen Stefani and DVD players Kay wrote: Our free, fairly geeky, local paper, "The Philly Weekly" currently has a story called "Rock Snob Encyclopedia." It seems that people who know about and discuss:-- Big Star, Beefheart, Eno, Roky Erickson, Love, Parsons, Iggy, Jonathan Richman, Leonard Cohen, the Beach Boys, Nick Drake, the Ramones, Lou Reed, REM(it catagorizes people who dont like their early stuff as "people who dont cry at the end of "Its a Wonderful Life" and should be avoided at all costs." heh) Syd, T Rex, VU, Who, Wilco, Lucinda Williams, The Yardbirds, the Kinks, Neil Young, Zepplin, Zappa ,Zimmerman and the Zombies -- have "discerning taste ." God, I feel so cool. It's funny that you mentioned the Kinks and then Neil Young directly after (were they in that order in the article?). On December 5, 1970, I saw the Kinks (for the first time - oh, oh, oh) at the Filmore East for the early show (they used to play two shows in one night at the Filmore) and then Neil Young at Carnegie Hall at midnight. Those were the days.... I can never remember if Filmore had one "l" or two. As for Gwen Stefani, my kids saw her in some pre-Super Bowl thing. I thought she was OK; they hated her. My son just wants all the original Beach Boys back. My daughter dreams of being Natalie Wood in West Side Story. As for DVD players, I don't know about all the high-fallutin' stuff you all were talking about, but I *do* know that a company called Discounts and Deals is selling a Korean DVD player (Sampo) for which they can "flash the firmware" in order to make it multiregional. I have one and it works great. It costs just around $200. If any of you wants to know why we can't all buy multiregional DVD players at our local shop(pe), I would like to refer you to Jeme, who wrote the book on this topic. I think I saved his post about it, so e-mail off digest for a repost. Jill ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 23:19:32 -0600 From: steve Subject: I seem to be Pulp > Are you legendary? Sassy? Egotistical? Completely mad? Take this test > to find out which British band you are! http://www.couplandesque.net/boredom/british.htm And not at all related - http://www.foulds2000.freeserve.co.uk/bushv5.htm - - Steve __________ "We're not attacking Islam, but Islam has attacked us. The God of Islam is not the same God," the Rev. Franklin Graham, who spoke at President Bush's inauguration, said recently. "He's not the son of God of the Christian or Judeo-Christian faith. It's a different God, and I believe it is a very evil and wicked religion." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 09:33:58 +0000 From: "matt sewell" Subject: Hello? Have I fallen off the list? Or have we all run out of things to say?! Or is everybody just furiously whacking their googles? Matt >From: "OxfordRobin" >To: "matt sewell" >Subject: Re: Next week >Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 11:15:48 -0000 > >Wob next week. Ex Blyth Power guitarist (aren't they all?) Supported Mick Thomas last year. See www.geocities.com/wobonline Should be another good night. Things are picking up you know. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: matt sewell > To: oxfordrobin@hotmail.com > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 11:03 AM > Subject: Re: Next week > > > Woohoo! Casey Neill trio! Matt Sewell trio? You never know... (I mean there could well be three of us. Or four)... but WOOOHOOO! > > Robin, you are a star! > > 9.45 is fine for next week... who is the guest? > > Cheers and HOORAY! > > Matt > > > > >From: "OxfordRobin" > >To: "matt sewell" > >Subject: Next week > >Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 10:48:06 -0000 > > > >Booked you in for 9.45 next week. OK? > > > > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. Click Here ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 09:49:47 +0000 From: "matt sewell" Subject: test - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. Click Here ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 10:56:07 +0000 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: Re: test matt sewell wrote: > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ a line of ?dashes? illuminated? Stewart ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 11:13:39 +0000 From: "matt sewell" Subject: Re: test At least you got the message - I got nothing... I've a feeling something strange is going on with Hotmail... Still, it's Friday, I'm newly collaborating with a double bassist and I have a support slot with Casey Neill, so mustn't grumble etc... Matt >From: "Stewart C. Russell" >To: matt sewell >CC: fegmaniax@smoe.org >Subject: Re: test >Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 10:56:07 +0000 > >matt sewell wrote: > > > > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >a line of ?dashes? illuminated? > > Stewart - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: Click Here ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 08:24:31 -0600 From: "scary mary" Subject: Re: I seem to be Pulp At 11:19 PM 02/07/2002 -0600, Steve wrote: >>Are you legendary? Sassy? Egotistical? Completely mad? Take this test to >>find out which British band you are! > >http://www.couplandesque.net/boredom/british.htm > >- Steve > >I'm Radiohead! Yay! Moody and unpredictable - I like that. > >s.mary > >np - The Golden Palominos "Pure" > >nd - the jobsearch shuffle - pink slips suck! sorry Steve for the double email! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:57:20 -0500 (CDT) From: gSs Subject: fufufufufuck coudn't ta said it better: http://www.arabnews.com/Cartoon.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 10:07:57 -0600 From: "Brian Huddell" Subject: April 8 Anyone looking for information about the Atlanta venue might find it helpful to know that it's called "Smith's Olde Bar", not "Smith's Old Barn" as it's listed at the Museum. Sounds like a good place, I haven't been there: http://atlanta.citysearch.com/profile/3015407/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 10:56:41 -0600 From: "Mike Wells" Subject: Who's Got the Oldest Diskette? Saw in CGW where Sir-Tech Cananda, studio behind the venerable Wizardry series, released Wizardry 8 a couple of months ago and promptly folded. - - a moment of silence - I looked last night, and I still have a 5.25" floppy of the * original * Wizardry...and that had to have been '83 or early '84. Ah, memories. I also found Hard Hat Mack, the ever-useful Captain Copy utility, and something labelled "Microsoft v1.06". Yikes. Michael "what a fossil" Wells ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:10:30 -0800 From: "Jason Brown (Echo Services Inc)" Subject: What Brit band are you? http://www.couplandesque.net/boredom/british.htm I am Blur! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 12:13:26 -0500 From: "Larry Tucker" Subject: Two different hens? I just recently got a DVD payer and was looking on the Amazon site. They have 2 DVDs listed for GOTTA LET THIS HEN OUT. Is their a newer version that is different or is this just a mistake? - -LT ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 12:23:36 -0500 From: The Great Quail Subject: Look! A New Zealand reference! I am not sure where this is from -- The Onion? -- but someone mailed it to me.... + + + + + + + + + + ANGERED BY SNUBBING, LIBYA, CHINA SYRIA FORM AXIS OF JUST AS EVIL Cuba, Sudan, Serbia Form Axis of Somewhat Evil; Other Nations Start Own Clubs BEIJING - Bitter after being snubbed for membership in the "Axis of Evil," Libya, China, and Syria today announced they had formed the "Axis of Just as Evil," which they said would be way eviler than that stupid Iran-Iraq-North Korea axis President Bush warned of his State of the Union address. Axis of Evil members, however, immediately dismissed the new axis as having, for starters, a really dumb name. "Right. They are Just as Evil... in their dreams!" declared North Korean leader Kim Jong-il. "Everybody knows we're the best evils... best at being evil... we're the best." Diplomats from Syria denied they were jealous over being excluded, although they conceded they did ask if they could join the Axis of Evil. "They told us it was full," said Syrian President Bashar al-Assad. "An Axis can't have more than three countries," explained Iraqi President Saddam Hussein. "This is not my rule, it's tradition. In World War II you had Germany, Italy, and Japan in the evil Axis. So you can only have three. And a secret handshake. Ours is wicked cool." THE AXIS PANDEMIC International reaction to Bush's Axis of Evil declaration was swift, as within minutes, France surrendered. Elsewhere, peer-conscious nations rushed to gain triumvirate status in what became a game of geopolitical chairs. Cuba, Sudan, and Serbia said they had formed the Axis of Somewhat Evil, forcing Somalia to join with Uganda and Myanmar in the Axis of Occasionally Evil, while Bulgaria, Indonesia and Russia established the Axis of Not So Much Evil Really As Just Generally Disagreeable. With the criteria suddenly expanded and all the desirable clubs filling up, Sierra Leone, El Salvador, and Rwanda applied to be called the Axis of Countries That Aren't the Worst But Certainly Won't Be Asked to Host the Olympics; Canada, Mexico, and Australia formed the Axis of Nations That Are Actually Quite Nice But Secretly Have Nasty Thoughts About America, while Spain, Scotland, and New Zealand established the Axis of Countries That Be Allowed to Ask Sheep to Wear Lipstick. "That's not a threat, really, just something we like to do," said Scottish Executive First Minister Jack McConnell. While wondering if the other nations of the world weren't perhaps making fun of him, a cautious Bush granted approval for most axes, although he rejected the establishment of the Axis of Countries Whose Names End in "Guay," accusing one of its members of filing a false application. Officials from Paraguay, Uruguay, and Chadguay denied the charges. Israel, meanwhile, insisted it didn't want to join any Axis, but privately, world leaders said that's only because no one asked them. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 11:37:01 -0600 From: "Mike Wells" Subject: Fw: Who's Got the Oldest Diskette? > Saw in CGW where Sir-Tech Cananda Some clever spelling, that. "Cananda" sounds like a hip new dance. Oops. And in a wafer-thin segue, thanks to whoever posted the lead to Canadian music retailer a+b sound last year www.absound.ca - I just got "Storefront" on DVD for US$10.54. I also ordered a collection of old Rod "the mod" Stewart and I think the whole thing, shipping included, came in at US$18. Michael "hot legs" Wells ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 11:01:13 -0800 (PST) From: FS Thomas Subject: Re: fufufufufuck - --- gSs wrote: > coudn't ta said it better: > > http://www.arabnews.com/Cartoon.asp What a load of leftist bunk (in reference to most of the archived cartoons, but in particular Feb. 6th's.) 'Scuse me now. I've got to go change my shoes. Mr. Kahil's heart's bled all over them. - -f. Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 11:00:39 -0800 From: Tom Clark Subject: Re: Who's Got the Oldest Diskette? on 2/8/02 8:56 AM, Mike Wells at mwells@imageworksmfg.com wrote: > I looked last night, and I still have a 5.25" floppy of the * original * > Wizardry...and that had to have been '83 or early '84. Ah, memories. I also > found Hard Hat Mack, the ever-useful Captain Copy utility, and something > labelled "Microsoft v1.06". Yikes. VisiCalc for the Apple II+. 1978? - -tc ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 11:36:48 -0800 (PST) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: fufufufufuck On Fri, 8 Feb 2002, FS Thomas wrote: > --- gSs wrote: > > coudn't ta said it better: > > http://www.arabnews.com/Cartoon.asp > > What a load of leftist bunk (in reference to most of the archived > cartoons, but in particular Feb. 6th's.) Huh? What's "leftist" about the statement that Arafat seeks peace and is being shot down by Sharon? You can argue about whether or not it's TRUE. But I hardly think it's LEFTIST. There are a few mildly leftist sentiments in his cartoons (I'm thinking particularly of the one where a generic arab and a generic Israeli jew are tied to a bundle of dynamite and Sharon is lighting the fuse... implying that the leadership doesn't have the best interests of the people in mind), but mostly I just see a view of the world that is extremely sympathetic and kindly to the arab position. I don't think you can expect anything else from something called Arab News. > 'Scuse me now. I've got to go change my shoes. Mr. Kahil's heart's > bled all over them. I think that might be the blood shed by the thousands dying for the sake of U.S. interests in the middle east. On that mark, Kahil's commentary is on the money. The answer to all questions is violence and the arms race is a race off a cliff (which he has used in two separate comics in the past two months... he's not the most creative cartoonist around). And for those that think he's unabashedly anti-U.S., I refer you to his "Super powers: can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em" cartoon from, I think, last September (sorry I don't have the exact date). One could probably construe the cartoon to show that the U.S. creates a need for itself by raining food down on cities that it destroyed in the first place, but one could also easily just interpret it to mean that both good and bad come from wealthy nations. Oh, and I kind of liked the one where The Third World is standing on a corner with a hand out and The West comes by, checks its pockets, then steps up next to The Third World and puts its own hand out in kind. J. - -- _______________________________________________ Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 14:43:40 -0500 (EST) From: Christopher Gross Subject: Re: fufufufufuck On Fri, 8 Feb 2002, FS Thomas wrote: > > http://www.arabnews.com/Cartoon.asp > > What a load of leftist bunk (in reference to most of > the archived cartoons, but in particular Feb. 6th's.) Bunk, yes, but not so much leftist bunk as Arab nationalist and Muslims-are-always-right-Westerners-and-Israel-are-always-wrong bunk. Feb. 6 is indeed particularly striking. What exactly are those dovelike hearts poor caged Yassir Arafat is sending out? No doubt the cartoonist would have labelled them with specific peace initiatives that Arafat had made and Sharon had shot down -- if only any such initiatives had ever been made. But I doubt this Kahlil guy is any bunkier, in his own way, than the average political cartoonist.... - --Chris (another Radiohead) ______________________________________________________________________ Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog. chrisg@gwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 12:01:25 -0800 (PST) From: FS Thomas Subject: Re: fufufufufuck - --- Capuchin wrote: > What's "leftist" about the statement that Arafat > seeks peace and is being > shot down by Sharon? Well, perhaps leftist wasn't the right adjective. I would, however, say it's not true. If Arafat (or the factions he supposedly represents) honestly wanted anything to do with peace, the offers been on the table and they'vre repeatedly shunned it. > I think that might be the blood shed by the > thousands dying for the sake > of U.S. interests in the middle east. I'm the first to call to question our support of Israel. Do I support the idea of Israel and their right to be a state? Definately. I would, however, like to see the billions sent there every year (to all sides in the argument) to be cut off. > The answer to all > questions is violence and the arms race is a race > off a cliff From the sides of those with machine guns AND those who insist on chucking rocks at them. Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 14:15:39 -0500 (CDT) From: gSs Subject: 0% noel coward, past here On Fri, 8 Feb 2002, FS Thomas wrote: > > http://www.arabnews.com/Cartoon.asp > > What a load of leftist bunk (in reference to most of > the archived cartoons, but in particular Feb. 6th's.) Nationalistic is probably more accurate. I was only referencing today's cartoon. You were not supposed to read the arabnews.com pages or bookmark the damn place, but since you have take a look at paknews.org and their seperated at youth, so now one says half bitter and the other says part sour, twin sister site indiatimes.com. Interesting perspective adjustment for maximum saturation is required at each site. Kahil is mistaken or misled often and some of his work flusters me and some of it makes me wince or cringe but in a good way. Either way, I get some type of charge from his stuff and I thought today's piece was a ringer. GsS ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 15:28:31 -0500 From: The Great Quail Subject: Re: fufufufufuck I am actually going to wade in, here. Though I know that (1) politics are explosive, and (2) the Israeli/Arab conflict even more so. But I have read so much about this lately, I am dying to hold forth on my soapbox! >What's "leftist" about the statement that Arafat seeks peace and is being >shot down by Sharon? > >You can argue about whether or not it's TRUE. But I hardly think it's >LEFTIST. Well, it really is, by dint of the Palestine cause being generally more associated with leftist politics than the support of Likud's Isreal. "Guilt by Association," so to speak. As for it being "true," that's pretty debatable. Arafat is far from a hero, and has *repeatedly* passed up solid opportunities for peacemaking. A very convincing argument can be made that Arafat only seeks peace inasmuch as it will keep him in power. Sharon may be evil incarnate (and I do believe he is very nearly that), but Arafat is pretty much a corrupt, power-seeking manipulative sack of shit. Though he is quite important as a figurehead, and penning him in is not doing anything to promote the so-called "peace process." >I think that might be the blood shed by the thousands dying for the sake >of U.S. interests in the middle east. Well, uh, hm. Another very convincing argument could be made that without US interests in the Middle East, there'd be just as much blood or even more spilled. Frankly speaking, I think US involvement just shifts around *where* and *whose* blood is spilled. Our current levels of unwavering support of Sharon do disgust me, however. And I won't argue that we throw our weight around like a big bully. But there's not a lot of attractive alternatives, given that we wish to hold our interests. Of course, if you specifically mean sanctions against Iraq, I agree with you, they are horrendous and self-defeating. Chris writes, >Bunk, yes, but not so much leftist bunk as Arab nationalist and >Muslims-are-always-right-Westerners-and-Israel-are-always-wrong bunk. >Feb. 6 is indeed particularly striking. What exactly are those dovelike >hearts poor caged Yassir Arafat is sending out? No doubt the cartoonist >would have labelled them with specific peace initiatives that Arafat had >made and Sharon had shot down -- if only any such initiatives had ever >been made. I agree that this particular cartoon was odd! But I have to say this, and mind you, it only comes from my last half-year of reading -- Sharon does not want peace. He never has, and never will, as long as peace involves giving back any more of the occupied territories. His actions as Prime Minister have demonstrated this consistently; and before he was elected, his actions for the last few decades have always placed him at the heart of brutality, aggression, and mendacity. He does everything he can to inflame the situation and cripple the PNA at every move, all the while laying the blame on Arafat -- who has already essentially "sold out" at Oslo, and is truly very nearly irrelevant, counting on the support of only a quarter of Palestinians. It's an impossible situation, and one that won't be resolved until (1) the Isreali right falls out of power, (2) the Arab League grows up and makes a serious peace overture*, and (3) the moderate secular Palestinians replace both Arafat's corrupt Fatah wing and the insidious Hamas, elevating a spokesperson who is ready to actually discuss reality. Of course, all this could be helped as well if the current US administration would stop its blind support of Sharon, who now receives carte blanche by labelling all his opponents as "terrorists." (Meanwhile, the illegal settlements, assassinations, and violent overreactions continue....) f. writes, >I'm the first to call to question our support of >Israel. Do I support the idea of Israel and their >right to be a state? Definately. I would, however, >like to see the billions sent there every year (to all >sides in the argument) to be cut off. Those are mutually exclusive desires. Isreali literally *depends* on US aid. To slash that 3 billion or so would be disastrous. I, for one, would rather use that aid more effectively, as a very large stick wielded over them, prodding them to the peace table. But this Bush will never, ever do that! >> The answer to all >> questions is violence and the arms race is a race >> off a cliff > >From the sides of those with machine guns AND those >who insist on chucking rocks at them. Well, I think that's a gross simplification and a morally questionable equation. First of all, the Isrealis have machine guns because they are an occupying army, partaking in an illegal occupation now going on its fourth decade. Without their machine guns, helicopter gunships and bulldozers, they'd have no real ability to keep and hold the land! Second of all, how can you fault a repressed and occupied people for flinging rocks? Especially during the first Intifada, before the Hamas suicide bombers. This was not only a groundswell act of protest, but a conscious decision to forsake a more radical form of violence. Anyway..... I have found Avi Shlaim's recent work, "The Iron Wall," to be an excellent history of the conflict. Written by a Jewish "revisionist" historian, it is based on hundreds of interviews with the principal players. While it certainly does not leave the Palestiniabn leadership untarnished, it goes a long way in showing the nasty origin of Zionist policies, the frequent mendacity of Isreali politics, and the often thorny relationship between the US and Israel. Overall the book is readable and fair -- he is not a raving anti-Zionist or anything like that. If you want more from the Palestinian side, I have found Edward Said to be a very good source, sharply critical of all the players, including Arafat and the US. Another great source is Joe Sacco's amazing comic, "Palestine." It's near "Maus" level. - --Quail - -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Great Quail, Keeper of the Libyrinth: http://www.TheModernWord.com "All visible objects, man, are but as pasteboard masks. But in each event -- in the living act, the undoubted deed -- there, some unknown but still reasoning thing puts forth the mouldings of its features from behind the unreasoning mask. If man will strike, strike through the mask! How can the prisoner reach outside except by thrusting through the wall?" --Herman Melville, "Moby Dick" ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V11 #43 *******************************