From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V10 #411 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Tuesday, October 30 2001 Volume 10 : Number 411 Today's Subjects: ----------------- lovable stupidity ["Andrew D. Simchik" ] Re: Oh, hell, not Israel again. (was Re: infidels) ["noe shalev" ] Re: Frank sings and... ["Stewart C. Russell" ] Re: whinge ["Stewart C. Russell" ] Re: superglued a snowglobe to his nutsack ["Stewart C. Russell" ] the best of the kiwis [grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan)] Re: Pleasance [Michael R Godwin ] the best of the kiwis (slight return) [grutness@surf4nix.com (James Digna] Re: Finally... ["Gene Hopstetter, Jr." ] Musical Gluttony Pt 2 Billion ["lucifersam" ] Re: Oh, hell, not Israel again. (was Re: infidels) [Christopher Gross ] Re: superglued a snowglobe to his nutsack [The Great Quail ] Re: lovable stupidity [John McIntyre ] Re: Finally... ["Jason R. Thornton" ] NanoNano, --Art MaryLew in poppyshoes? ["Redtailed Hawk" Subject: lovable stupidity >From: "Natalie Jane" > >My friend Colin and I believe there should be a permanent moratorium on all >books about King Arthur. I mean, what new tack can you possibly take on the >subject? [...] >I also don't want to see >any more books about vampires or serial killers, for similar reasons. How do you feel about books concerning ordinary people with ordinary problems? A subject that has been done to death for certain, if the ones you name have. Yet trees are still being killed for what must absolutely be exhausted cliches by this time... >Oh yeah, re. my earlier comments on Sam, and Drews's response - I don't find >loveable stupidity to be "charming." I find it annoying. I guess "stupidity" is not, in my reading, Sam's most prominent trait. >Of course, we all >know that Sam is much smarter than he seems, and that's what really makes >his servility irritating: he's tougher than Frodo and just as smart (in his >own way), but he's still Frodo's *servant* and is considered by all the >other characters to be lesser than him. Maybe it depends on what you think is the stronger in the books, how characters are initially seen by their fellows or how characters ultimately prove themselves to be. I mean, to my mind it's pretty significant that hobbits save Middle-Earth, and the humans and the elves and the wizards and the mighty warrior-kings are only helping out. You don't have elves making googly eyes at hobbits all the time, but you don't see them saying "here, I'll just run that over to Mount Doom for you, you just sit here and have a cuppa and I'll be back before supper" either. I mean, I think this tug-of-war between the characters we admire and the characters _they_ admire is part of the book, not just a conscientious complaint against that rotten old toff Tolkien. >This makes me want to introduce >socialism to Middle Earth. >Am I taking this too seriously? It's fun to take books too seriously. But I'd ask why you're so focused on the delicious Maurice/Scudder relationship between Frodo and Sam, and not complaining about all those hereditary monarchies floating around. >From: "ross taylor" >[NaNoWriMo, surely:] >But I'd sure like to see other folks stuff -- >don't think I could handle several very raw >novels, but a chapter or two from each ... To >trade? My girlfriend and I were discussing this issue today, and I think we're both worried that letting others read the work in progress will tempt us to go back and revise, which of course is not only verboten but also dangerous. I'd be happy to share once I've done. I had a terrific idea last night that will actually give what I'm doing some sort of structure (imagine!) and I'm very excited now, even though I'm sure this idea must have been done before. >From: "Voodoo Ergonomics" > >and i have essentially stopped participating because of the depoliticisation >of the list at a time when the world is on the brink of total calamity, and >the u.s. is probably going to kill as many people in the next few months as >were killed by its 20-year onslaught of indochina. Funny...I had to explain this to another list I was on (and left as a result), but it's weird how mailing lists walk the line between special-interest channel and general-interest community. Because the feglist seems to fall pretty comfortably toward the latter, I don't really have a big problem with political conversation on the list. But the main idea is that you can't expect a single mailing list, no matter how close-knit as a community, to represent people's desires and sole information channel. What I'm trying to say is: you seem to imply that the depoliticization of the list indicates depoliticization of the list members, which is an unwarranted and insulting assumption. Strange as it may seem to you, even world events on this scale may not lead automatically to people wanting their Robyn Hitchcock fan list to turn into a place where they can read nothing but political commentary from their fellow Robyn Hitchcock fans. They may want to hear political commentary from someone else, through another channel. The feglist may happen to be the most verbose list I'm subscribed to at the moment, but it is not the only list, and it is furthermore not my life. Having said that, I am not one of the people who would see the list wholly depoliticized. I merely resent the implication that those who do are ostriches, and that events on a certain scale necessarily create obligations to discuss them in every forum available. Drew - -- Andrew D. Simchik, drew at stormgreen dot com http://www.stormgreen.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 03:22:27 +0200 From: "noe shalev" Subject: Re: Oh, hell, not Israel again. (was Re: infidels) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Gross" > Even so, most of the points of disagreement that sank the peace > deal had to do with quibbles over exactly where the border between Israel > and the Palestinian state would be. basicaly this is not true. the main question in dispute is the right of return. Isarel wouldn't negotiate it whatsoever. this is much more than a practical matter it goes down to the bottom of the side's ethos. and it does involve quesion of morality. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:20:34 +1300 From: grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan) Subject: Frank sings and... Sebastian sprache: >Actually kill -HUP ist used... ah - bilingual fegness! >James got the definition wrong, but got caught on the English shibboleth >- -- they can't pronounce "wh" correctly (or a terminal "r, for that >matter), poor dears. hm. must have a different meaning in the UK. And here is the farrr south we have that terminal 'r' thank you very much (remember this area was settled by Scots)! >Fuck Di$ney! Mary Poppins rules! Nobody believes me when I say that. In >the book, she's no sweetsie-neatsie Julie Andrews - she's a prim stuck-up >bitch who "only smiles at her own reflection." (Of course, this is only a >cover-up - she's actually a softy, but it's hard to tell most of the time.) and don't forget that wonderful, gruesomely matter-of-fact book Bambi. >Eb (so, let's see...7103/12 = approximately 600 albums?) no - about 3500 prog albums ;) James James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand. =-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= .-=-.-=-.-=-.- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-. -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= You talk to me as if from a distance =-.-=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time -=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 22:50:18 -0700 From: "victorian squid" Subject: Re: lovable stupidity On Mon, 29 Oct 2001 18:04:35 the only other person in the world who doesn't like Stereolab wrote: >verboten but also dangerous. I'd be happy to share >once I've done. Done as in "met the deadline" or done as in "done writing it"? One of the few things I know for sure about this puppy is that what I'll have on paper by the end of the month will be pretty close to live from the id. "Very raw" would be about right. I don't know as I'd -want- anyone to read it in that state. >list wholly depoliticized. I merely resent the implication that >those who do are ostriches, and that events on a certain scale >necessarily create obligations to discuss them in every forum >available. I agree. loveonya, susan Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:40:14 +0000 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: Re: Frank sings and... James Dignan wrote: > > >James got the definition wrong ... > > hm. must have a different meaning in the UK. weird shit typo! I meant to say "right" -- how did I type "wrong"? Apologies to all... Stewart ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:00:49 +0000 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: Re: whinge dmw wrote: > > portmanteau whine + cringe, n'est-ce pas? we give it as from the northern Old English 'hwinsian', to whine. Our primary definition is "to cry in a fretful way". Stewart ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:10:22 +0000 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: Re: superglued a snowglobe to his nutsack Voodoo Ergonomics wrote: > > and i have essentially stopped participating because of the depoliticisation > of the list at a time when the world is on the brink of total calamity And this isn't what we should have in 2001. Where are the helmet-hatted space-hostesses and talking computers? I didn't pay for my image of 2001 to be a starving woman keening for dead children in the ruins of a hovel. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:48:12 +0000 (GMT) From: Michael R Godwin Subject: Re: Shapes of things Returning to the Yardbirds' "Shapes of things", I was surprised to hear it on 'Jimmy Page and the Black Crowes' which was lent to me at pub quiz on Sunday*. It was an unusual arrangement which I once heard a long time ago - - possibly Page rejigged it for live performances by the Yardbirds / New Yardbirds. Anybody got any info? Needless to say, Page's solo wasn't a patch on the original Beck (but I think Beck used some overdubs to thicken up the feedback). On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > Where are the helmet-hatted space-hostesses and talking computers? I > didn't pay for my image of 2001 to be a starving woman keening for > dead children in the ruins of a hovel. Stewart, you're getting bitter. - - Mike Godwin * We won, 53-29! Things are so much easier since we got relegated to Division 3... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 23:01:21 +1300 From: grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan) Subject: the best of the kiwis Hi all, APRA, the Australasian Performing Rights Association, is celebrating it's 75th anniversary, and doing so by naming its list of the 30 greatest NZ songs of all time (earlier in the year they did the same with the 30 top Australian songs). This was done by a poll of its members working in conjunction with a panel of experts. As with all such lists, it is biased towards recent releases, but still makes interesting reading. There are a few notable exceptions (Heavenly pop hit? Beatnik? Outlook for Thursday? Cheryl Moana Marie?), but also some intriguing by their presence. The only stipulations were that the songs had to be written and originallyrecorded by New Zealanders. I don't expect any of you to know even the majority of these songs, but a few should be familiar to some of you (hi Bibi!). And for those of you who know their version, yes the number 1 song is the one covered by the Mutton Birds. 1: Fourmyula - Nature 2: Crowded House - Don't dream it's over 3: Dave Dobbyn - Loyal 4: Swingers - Counting the beat 5: Split Enz - Six months in a leaky boat 6: Bic Runga - Sway 7: Dave Dobbyn and Herbs - Slice of Heaven 8: Dance Exponents - Victoria 9: She speeds - Straitjacket Fits 10: April sun in Cuba - Dragon 11: Split Enz - I got you 12: Dave Dobbyn - Whaling 13: Chris Knox - Not given lightly 14: Chills - Pink frost 15: Darcy Clay - Jesus I was evil 16: Crowded House - Weather with you 17: Pixie Williams and the Ruru Karaitiana Quartet - Blue Smoke 18: Blerta - Dance all around the world 19: Fur Patrol - Lydia 20: Hello Sailor - Blue lady 21: Bic Runga - Drive 22: Che Fu - Chains 23: Mutton Birds - Dominion Road 24: Shona Laing - (Glad I'm) Not a Kennedy 25: Split Enz - I hope I never 26: Crocodiles - Tears 27: Th'Dudes - Be mine tonight 28: Split Enz - I see red 29: Dave Dobbyn - Beside you 30: Shihad - Home again Earlier, in the year APRA announced Australia's top 30 as well - I can only find the top ten listed though. Again, it's a peculiar list (and yet again, the Aussies claim Te Awamutu's favourite son with number 7). 1. Friday on My Mind - The Easybeats 2. Eagle Rock - Daddy Cool 3. Beds are Burning - Midnight Oil 4. Down Under - Men at Work 5. Pub With No Beer - Slim Dusty 6. The Loved One - The Loved Ones 7. Don't Dream It's Over - Crowded House 8. Khe Sanh - Cold Chisel 9. It's A Long Way To The Top - AC/DC 10. Quasimodo's Dream - The Reels James James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand. =-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= .-=-.-=-.-=-.- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-. -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= You talk to me as if from a distance =-.-=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time -=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:01:40 +0000 (GMT) From: Michael R Godwin Subject: Re: Pleasance On Mon, 29 Oct 2001, Redtailed Hawk wrote: > I have a photo of a teen-age Alice Liddell on my studio door. She's > amazingly knowing-looking. Her hands on her hip, her chin's up and theres a > look in the back of her eyes which just shouldnt be there. Major tude. > One wonders. Well, you know who took that photograph. And presumably you know that from being best friends, the Liddells suddenly forbade any more contact between Alice and CLD. I know what conclusions the Social Services in, for example, the Western Isles would draw. - - MRG ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 23:03:59 +1300 From: grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan) Subject: the best of the kiwis (slight return) >9: She speeds - Straitjacket Fits >10: April sun in Cuba - Dragon for the sake of consistency, those should read: 9: Straitjacket Fits - She speeds 10: Dragon - April sun in Cuba James James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand. =-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= .-=-.-=-.-=-.- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-. -.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= You talk to me as if from a distance =-.-=-. And I reply with impressions chosen from another time -=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- (Brian Eno - "By this River") ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:13:18 -0600 From: "Gene Hopstetter, Jr." Subject: Re: Finally... >From: Tom Clark > >With Paul Carrack's "Suburban Voodoo", I finally finished ripping my entire >CD collection this morning! I've got a total of 7103 songs totalling 19 days >and 4 hours of music, taking up 38.8 Gigabytes. Now that you've ripped all of your CDs, you may as well sell them off. Heck, sell your CD cabinet, too. This person is, and even admits it ("Years in the making, now going away (Actually I went thru the entire collection and moved it to MP3's)": . ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:54:42 -0000 From: "lucifersam" Subject: Musical Gluttony Pt 2 Billion Todays Pig out came to #21....A bargain I'd say... That What is Not - Public Image Limited Dare! - The Human league (#2.99!) Nadir's Big Chance - Peter Hammill King Of America - Elvis Costello Paris in Spring - Public Image Limited I've had the Peter Hammill and Elvis Costello on vinyl for years, but at #3.99 each, i thought I'd splash out for the digital versions. Ash Ra Punk/Hippy/New Romantic/Rotten ;0) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:39:35 -0500 (EST) From: Christopher Gross Subject: Re: Oh, hell, not Israel again. (was Re: infidels) On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, noe shalev wrote: > > Even so, most of the points of disagreement that sank the peace > > deal had to do with quibbles over exactly where the border between Israel > > and the Palestinian state would be. > > basicaly this is not true. the main question in dispute is the right of > return. Ack! You caught me! ;) I was leaving out the whole "right of return" question. (And no one else seems to have noticed.) But was that really a *serious* issue? I kinda assumed it was something Arafat knew he had absolutely no chance of getting, but pushed anyway to a.) look good to his people and b.) have another lever to get more territorial concessions, or maybe financial restitution. But I'm no expert, just an Internet blowhard. - --Blowhard Chris ______________________________________________________________________ Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog. chrisg@gwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:06:04 -0800 From: "Walker, Charles" Subject: 100% RH Content chas in LA writes: I was talking with a bartender friend last night and happened to mention seeing The Soft Boys at the Knitting Factory in conversation. In talking my friend said that RH had played on a Cocteau Twins album. I said I found that hard to believe but he said he remembered reading his name on the liner notes. He seemed credible in his RH knowledge. I am not versed in my CTwins knowledge, however. Does anyone know if this is true or my friend was mistaken? Are the CTwins still together? I enjoyed the little music of theirs that I have heard, though it all seemed like the same song, which is fine if it is a good song!! Anyway, some help on this would be nice, thanks... http://www.theweeklywalker.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:12:55 -0500 From: The Great Quail Subject: Re: superglued a snowglobe to his nutsack Eddie, >and i have essentially stopped participating because of the >depoliticisation of the list at a time when the world is on the >brink of total calamity, I figured as much -- it seemed a plausible reason for you to stop posting. But Eddie, please try to understand, the tempers on this List make a real political discussion very difficult, and certainly not something everyone values. Perhaps you can start up a PoliFeg Yahoo group, and those Fegs who wish to really discuss these trying times may do so. Of course, I for one am not going to stop or even bemoan a political discussion; but I won't participate to any *great* extent because I think it is unrealistic to suggest that Eddie, Jeme, myself, Ken, Chris, Viv, Michael, Steve, Ed, or GSS are really going to significantly change each other's opinions. I mean, we couldn't even argue about Nader without going insane; how are we going to realistically and healthily discuss this? I think that part of the problem lies with our very base assumptions about politics and ethics being so radically different. >i'm certainly not here to dictate subject matter, so won't press the >issue. but it's too bad, as yours are the opinions i respect most, >and am most interested in hearing. even those i vehemently disagree >with are generally coherent and well-argued. Thank you, and maybe I would discuss it on a limited basis. I like hearing your opinions as well. But I hesitate to sink myself, and the List, into a Feg Poli-Swamp. - --Quail PS: One of the more colorful subject lines, by the way. I am now sitting cross-legged thanks to you. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:15:37 +0000 (GMT) From: Michael R Godwin Subject: Re: Oh, hell, not Israel again. (was Re: infidels) On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Christopher Gross wrote: > Ack! You caught me! ;) I was leaving out the whole "right of return" > question. (And no one else seems to have noticed.) But was that really a > *serious* issue? I kinda assumed it was something Arafat knew he had > absolutely no chance of getting, but pushed anyway to a.) look good to his > people and b.) have another lever to get more territorial concessions, or > maybe financial restitution. But I'm no expert, just an Internet > blowhard. I'm sure I've told this story before. When I was in Syria for a day, our coach group had a Palestinian guide. He showed us the keys to the house which his parents had been expelled from in 1948, and which he planned to move into someday. a) I can't see the "right of return" happening either. But then 30 years ago, I would never have expected the Native Americans to win any of their claims against the US government. Or the German and Swiss governments compensating Jewish families who were expropriated during the war. b) I'm sure it suits the Syrians to maintain the Palestinian claim, because then they don't have to make any attempt to integrate the refugees into Syria. c) I don't know whether there is a definitive, truthful account of the 1948 events. I do know that the British government promised that Palestinian rights and property would not be damaged, but following the British pullout, many Palestinians fled. The Palestinians say they were ethnically cleansed, the Israelis say that they opted not to live under Israeli rule. I find it hard to believe that people would have abandoned their homes and property unless they felt threatened. If it is just a question of property rights, I would have thought that there was enough spare money in Europe and the US to offer ample compensation to the 1948 refugees and their heirs. But if they are insisting on the right to return, and not just to compensation, it is hard to see how an agreement can be reached. - - Mike "Internet blowhard II" Godwin PS And Jerusalem? PPS And the Jewish settlements on the West Bank? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:30:04 -0800 From: "Jason R. Thornton" Subject: Re: 100% RH Content (0% elves) At 08:06 AM 10/30/2001 -0800, Walker, Charles wrote: >chas in LA writes: I was talking with a bartender friend last night and >happened to mention seeing The Soft Boys at the Knitting Factory in >conversation. In talking my friend said that RH had played on a Cocteau >Twins album. I said I found that hard to believe but he said he remembered >reading his name on the liner notes. He seemed credible in his RH knowledge. >I am not versed in my CTwins knowledge, however. Does anyone know if this is >true or my friend was mistaken? Are the CTwins still together? I enjoyed the >little music of theirs that I have heard, though it all seemed like the same >song, which is fine if it is a good song!! Anyway, some help on this would >be nice, thanks... I don't think Hitchcock appeared on any Cocteau Twins material. The only connection I can come up with is that CT member Simon Raymonde is credited with some mixing work on the Tim Keegan & the Departure Lounge album "Out of Here," which of course featured Robyn Hitchcock on guitar. And, no, the Cocteau Twins are no longer together as a unit. There is a Cocteau Twins "greatest hits" compilation album out called "Stars and Topsoil" if you're interested a thorough overview as a starting point. - --Jason, currently enjoying Tim Keegan's contribution to the new Kid Loco album "Kill Your Darlings" "Only the few know the sweetness of the twisted apples." - Sherwood Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:36:35 -0500 From: John McIntyre Subject: Re: lovable stupidity > >From: "Natalie Jane" > > > >My friend Colin and I believe there should be a permanent moratorium on all > >books about King Arthur. I mean, what new tack can you possibly take on the > >subject? Try Ian McDowell's _Merlin's Gift_ and _Modred's Curse_. Definately a new tack. John McIntyre Physics - Astronomy Domine Dept Michigan State University mcintyre@pa.msu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 08:40:22 -0800 From: "Jason R. Thornton" Subject: Re: Finally... >With Paul Carrack's "Suburban Voodoo", I finally finished ripping my entire >CD collection this morning! I've got a total of 7103 songs totalling 19 days >and 4 hours of music, taking up 38.8 Gigabytes. Out of curiosity, about how long would a project like this take someone? - --Jason "Only the few know the sweetness of the twisted apples." - Sherwood Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:05:23 +0000 From: "Redtailed Hawk" Subject: NanoNano, --Art MaryLew in poppyshoes? Nano Gene & Drew & nonNano Ross: >But I'd sure like to see other folks stuff -- don't think I could handle several very raw >novels, but a chapter or two from each ... To trade? I for one could use useful feedback. I actually have delusions of salvaging something from the morass I will produce. Trading sounds good all around, escpecially if it helps me figure out what does and dosnt work. >I definitely like Kay's RH as undertaker idea, >since he's so talkative. Only I think he'd be >more cheerful & less sardonic than say, the >gravedigger in Hamlet. Im thinking quite talkative. The villianess ignores him since he dosn't appear to be of immediate wordly use. The herione enjoys him for what he is, and therefore learns info which helps her later. Nat: >My friend Colin and I believe there should be a permanent moratorium on all >books about King Arthur. As someone with the name of a loutish knight whose been an Arthurian fan since childhood--I agree. There may be good stuff out there but so much is mediocre it lessens the whole matter. I like reading the old romances, they feel strange without feeling prescious, and White--who was a darn good writer sometimes. Plus agree with you bout Mary Poppins. The movie is close to unwatchable, but the series is grand. >.I also bought "Perelandra" by C.S. Lewis, which I read a long time ago but >don't remember much about. Haven't started on it yet. I'm also thinking >of >re-reading the Narnia books Shameful confession--never quite cottoned-up to the space trilogy. There are some good bits but egads, there are some tedious bits too. Ive found re-reading Narnia an interesting experience. You notice how sexist, racist, classist and overtly Christian(which I didnt notice as a kid!) it is, but there are moments of mythopoetic vision which are golden. Lewis's classical and medieval scholarship fueled his imagination; Narnia is made up of everything he ever loved. It shows. I wish Lewis could be more fashionable. He should be marketed as a dysfunctional, 1/2 orphaned, raised by an alchoholic dad, brother of an alchoholic, badly beaten at school(the headmaster was later declared legally insane), sexually confused(gay? leather boy? oedipal mess? theres loads of juicy stuff in his early letters which just gets swept under the rug), hugely conflicted, emotionally-stymied genius. Our world would eat that up. Its this selling him as a plastic saint which ruins it;-0 Jeme I havent heard "poppyshoes" since middle school--when it was one of my favorite expressions. Thanks for reminding me. What a funny expression. How about "whinging poppyshoes." yup, thats a ticket. But, to where...? Kay _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:26:06 -0800 From: "Jason R. Thornton" Subject: Re: superglued a hobbit to a vampire's nutsack At 11:12 AM 10/30/2001 -0500, The Great Quail wrote: >Eddie, > >>and i have essentially stopped participating because of the >>depoliticisation of the list at a time when the world is on the brink of >>total calamity, No offense, Eddie, but wouldn't you essentially be further de-politicizing this list by failing to contribute when you deem it appropriate? And if one finds one's opinions unwelcome, or challenged, perhaps then that person might find it prudent to re-evaluate one's stance, or at least the delivery. (I'm not trying to suggest anything about YOU in particular here, just about the political threads that have appeared here in general). >I figured as much -- it seemed a plausible reason for you to stop posting. >But Eddie, please try to understand, the tempers on this List make a real >political discussion very difficult, and certainly not something everyone >values. Perhaps you can start up a PoliFeg Yahoo group, and those Fegs who >wish to really discuss these trying times may do so. Of course, I for one >am not going to stop or even bemoan a political discussion; but I won't >participate to any *great* extent because I think it is unrealistic to >suggest that Eddie, Jeme, myself, Ken, Chris, Viv, Michael, Steve, Ed, or >GSS are really going to significantly change each other's opinions. I >mean, we couldn't even argue about Nader without going insane; how are we >going to realistically and healthily discuss this? I think that part of >the problem lies with our very base assumptions about politics and ethics >being so radically different. Personally, as a reader rather than a main contributor (I think the last time I expressed a political view was to defend multi-lingual education about a year ago), I'm not sure it's even that. At the core of the ugliness are a few individuals who seem incapable of expressing their views in a manner which is both polite and respectful of other list-members, and the discussions quickly devolve into a series of glorified name-calling, non-sequiturs, strawmen and egotism. This occasionally goes beyond politics as well. Well, Quail, I guess I do think you're right, in part - a difference in core ethics is at the heart of the matter. Unless all contributors approach a discussion with a certain degree of consideration and empathy for their fellow human beings, their online friends, then things can get nasty. And that's when the rest of us become uncomfortable, and start ignoring the threads or complaining about them. Heck, I've found myself disgusted by the behavior of individuals with whom I agree as often, if not more, than by those with whom I do not. At least on this list. It's not the content to which I object. Substantive political discussion can occur... but, constructively, with this particular mix of individuals, I don't know. I haven't seen it recently - or in a long while. If people would at least start taking their personal attacks and long-standing grudges off-list, maybe. If anyone wants to convince me that they have even the slightest legitimate concern for the world and its human population, that they are in fact ethically, rationally, and compassionately equipped to really make a moral decision about what's going on, then they can start by showing me that they care about well-being of a few people here. Jason ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V10 #411 ********************************