From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V10 #406 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Thursday, October 25 2001 Volume 10 : Number 406 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: iPod Announced ["Jason R. Thornton" ] Re: national novel writing month ["Gene Hopstetter, Jr." ] Re: National Novel Writing Month ["Redtailed Hawk" ] Re: iPod Announced [Christopher Gross ] iPod ["Scott McCleary" ] Re: iPod Announced (3% RH) [Tom Clark ] The Dunedin Sound [Tom Clark ] Re: iPod Announced (3% RH) [Christopher Gross ] Percy ["Ben" ] Re: more historical details [Sebastian Hagedorn ] Re: iPod Announced [Capuchin ] Re: iPod Announced [Ken Weingold ] Re: iPod Announced (3% RH) [Capuchin ] Re: iPod Announced [Capuchin ] Re: iPod Announced [Ken Weingold ] Re: iPod Announced [Tom Clark ] Re: iPod Announced [Capuchin ] Re: new website [grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan)] Re: iPod Announced [Ken Weingold ] RH music on "commercial" ["Russ Reynolds" ] Haunted by vivid and humiliating dreams ["Voodoo Ergonomics" Subject: Re: iPod Announced At 02:30 AM 10/24/2001 -0700, Capuchin wrote: >And you still end up with lots of crappy plastic discs littering landfills >and making a mess of things. And what happens to the iPod and all those other MP3 players when they break down, or become obsolete when something bigger and better comes around? Heck, the technology itself has become more disposable than the media. How many parts from once "state of the art" machines, now lumbering dinosaurs, are filling holes around the world? >God forbid you should overtax your system while burning a CD and end up >with a plastic plated mylar coaster. Of maybe the hundred or so CD-R's I've burned for myself and friends, I don't think this has happened more than once or twice. Jason ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:29:48 -0500 From: "Gene Hopstetter, Jr." Subject: Re: national novel writing month >From: "Andrew D. Simchik" >Subject: national novel writing month > >When I first saw you guys talking about this on here, >I thought, "yeah right, this is not going to be something >I could do." I feel the same way. But I'm doing it anyway, what the heck. It's not like I have a job anyway (farking IT industry...). "No plot, no problem" is my kind of motivator. >Who's planning to do it from the list? Me! I signed up last Saturday. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:44:35 -0400 From: Ken Weingold Subject: Re: iPod Announced On Wed, Oct 24, 2001, Jason R. Thornton wrote: > And what happens to the iPod and all those other MP3 players when they > break down, or become obsolete when something bigger and better comes > around? Heck, the technology itself has become more disposable than the > media. eBay! People will by anything! :) Anyone want to buy a Philips Velo 1? > How many parts from once "state of the art" machines, now lumbering > dinosaurs, are filling holes around the world? Or filling crates around my apartment. :-/ > >God forbid you should overtax your system while burning a CD and end up > >with a plastic plated mylar coaster. > > Of maybe the hundred or so CD-R's I've burned for myself and friends, I > don't think this has happened more than once or twice. That is usually a product of a poorly configured system, or a problematic drive. I have burned probably 1000s of CDs (at my old job) and very rarely made "frisbees". Then again they do have one fun value: the cool microwave oven light show. - -Ken ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:28:40 +0000 From: "Redtailed Hawk" Subject: Re: National Novel Writing Month Drew: >When I first saw you guys talking about this on here, I thought, "yeah right, this is not going to be something >I could do." My girlfriend just pointed it out to me independently and she's almost talked me into signing up. >Who's planning to do it from the list? Im doing it. I figure its worth a go since it will keep me from being to persnickity--Ill just have to let stuff erupt. I dont really expect to get a workable trashy novel out of it -- Ill be happy with the raw material of a workable trashy novel. Besides, November is a sucky month. It will be good to be oblivious and obsessed. Is your girlfriend also doing it? Kay, unsticking the moment _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 12:45:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Gross Subject: more historical details On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Michael R Godwin wrote: > I'm not disputing this, I'm just fed up with Tony Blair's untruths and > half-truths. I don't know about Blair's truthfulness in general; but in this case he was guilty of no more than slight exaggeration, if that. The US did give Britain a great deal of support during the Blitz period. (And it was the only significant power outside the British Empire/Commonwealth to do so. All the others were either in the Axis, conquered by the Axis, or in the case of the USSR before 22 June 1941, materially supporting the Axis.) > PPS Is it just my imagination, or did I read somewhere that the US never > actually declared war on Germany? You may have read that, but it's not true. Germany and Italy did declare war on the US first, two or three days after Pearl Harbor. (They also starting attacking US shipping even before declaring war.) However, in response the US passed official declarations of war against both countries. (Bonus trivia: the state of war with Germany was not technically ended until the Federal Republic was set up, circa 1953.) - --Chris ______________________________________________________________________ Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog. chrisg@gwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 12:53:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Gross Subject: Re: iPod Announced On Tue, 23 Oct 2001, Tom Clark wrote: > Could it be the ID3v2 info? I ran into a problem recently when an ID3v2 > parser I wrote was choking on iTunes files. Turns out iTunes creates > ID3v2.2 tags and I was only looking for ID3v2.3. Maybe WinAmp isn't > checking that all important last version byte, like I wasn't. Could be. However, the basic tags (title, artist, etc.) are still read normally by WinAmp; the gibberish in the comment box is just a sort of bonus. It's usable, so I'm satisfied. > Nonetheless, I like the iPod. It is a tad expensive, compared to other hard > disk based players. But the ID is beautiful, I like the design in general, but my favorite part is simply its size. It's so *small*! I'd love to carry one around in my pocket. I also like the display and the way the battery can be charged by the FireWire connection. I think I read that the iPod is "flash upgradable." Does that mean it could be reprogrammed to use other compression schemes, like this Ogg thing? Of course they'll have devices ten times as cool by the time I have an extra $400 to throw around.... - --Chris ______________________________________________________________________ Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog. chrisg@gwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:26:52 -0700 From: "Scott McCleary" Subject: iPod The design is wonderful -- and the double-its-use-as-a-firewire-drive really appeals to me. But the coolest thing is the big display. Maybe I'm getting old (okay, no maybe about it), but the display on the Rio 800/128 I won a while back and use all the time is WAY too damn small. Maybe the iPod's display will make it more accessable to those whose eyesight isn't bad due to advanced fogeydom as well. The iPod's battery specs look like a good deal, too. Most of the mp3 players I've come in contact with charge slowly and don't hold a charge worth a darn. Gotta go -- Matlock's on. Scott "Maaaaaatloooooccckkk" McCleary ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:46:38 -0700 From: Tom Clark Subject: Re: iPod Announced (3% RH) Chris G.: > > I think I read that the iPod is "flash upgradable." Does that mean it > could be reprogrammed to use other compression schemes, like this Ogg > thing? > I didn't see that, but it's entirely possible. I think you're likely to see WMA support before Ogg, but you never know. Do any commercial players support Ogg? Quite frankly, I don't really give a shit about listening to music in front of my computer - I want to take it with me in the car or at the beach. Ken W.: > So does the iPod REQUIRE iTunes? Right now, yes. But there's a rumour of Winblows support in the near future. Jeme: >> And the fact that it shows up on the bus as a regular mass storage >> device means that it probably wouldn't be too difficult to make it >> work on other platforms. > > And, of course, that's exactly what I was wondering. > > You gonna make this happen, Tom? Start a sourceforge project, maybe? As soon as my current employer will expense one for me. You know, "research". If the MP3 player/hard drive factor appeals to anyone, you can check out the new Rio One. It's a 32meg mp3 player with a SmartMedia card slot for expansion. It's relatively cheap ($99) because it's built with a standard USB mass storage chipset, thus it shows up on your desktop (or in /dev/sda, Jeme) as a hard disk! Ob. Robyn Content: How does the title of "Lysander" relate to the lyrics? Discuss... - -tc, bummed about missing the Butthole Surfers in SF next week because I have to go to a breast feeding class! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:56:12 -0700 From: Tom Clark Subject: The Dunedin Sound The greatest radio station on the planet is conducting its yearly fundraiser, and one of the "thank you" gifts is a double CD of NZ music. Give today! http://www.kfjc.org/ - -tc ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:53:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Gross Subject: Re: iPod Announced (3% RH) On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Tom Clark wrote: > -tc, bummed about missing the Butthole Surfers in SF next week because I > have to go to a breast feeding class! Why do you need a class for that? Didn't you do it as a kid? Ba-dump-bump, Chris ______________________________________________________________________ Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog. chrisg@gwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 14:05:45 -0400 From: "Ben" Subject: Percy I just picked up the reissue of the Kinks "Percy" soundtrack out of the cutout bin, and according to the liners the film was adapted from a novel by Raymond Hitchcock. A pretty interesting coincidence, I thought, and a good link to keep in mind for any future "5 Degrees of Hitchcock" threads. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 22:09:19 +0200 From: Sebastian Hagedorn Subject: Re: more historical details - -- Christopher Gross is rumored to have mumbled on Mittwoch, 24. Oktober 2001 12:45 Uhr -0400 regarding more historical details: > You may have read that, but it's not true. Germany and Italy did declare > war on the US first, two or three days after Pearl Harbor. (They also > starting attacking US shipping even before declaring war.) However, in > response the US passed official declarations of war against both > countries. (Bonus trivia: the state of war with Germany was not > technically ended until the Federal Republic was set up, circa 1953.) That would be 1949... Cheers, Sebastian - -- Sebastian Hagedorn Ehrenfeldg|rtel 156, 50823 Kvln, Germany http://www.spinfo.uni-koeln.de/~hgd/ Winter is coming. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:36:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Gross Subject: Re: more historical details On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Sebastian Hagedorn wrote: > > countries. (Bonus trivia: the state of war with Germany was not > > technically ended until the Federal Republic was set up, circa 1953.) > > That would be 1949... Ah, yes. Fortunately I remembered to stick that wiggle word "circa" in there! - --probably Chris ______________________________________________________________________ Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog. chrisg@gwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 14:41:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: iPod Announced On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Ken Weingold wrote: > Why landfill mess? The CDs are USED, not disposable. I don't > understand this argument. The CDs are used for a while... but CDRs are fragile and a mix disk becomes uninteresting after a while. I prefer something durable and re-usable. J. - -- _______________________________________________ Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 14:51:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: iPod Announced On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Jason R. Thornton wrote: > At 02:30 AM 10/24/2001 -0700, Capuchin wrote: > And what happens to the iPod and all those other MP3 players when they > break down, I absolutely, whole-heartedly agree that our loss of the an ethic regarding durability and repair has led to much of our trash creation. (Heck, next to extraneous packaging, it's probably the number 1 problem.) > or become obsolete when something bigger and better comes around? > Heck, the technology itself has become more disposable than the media. Well, it's up to us to stay off bandwagons for exactly that purpose. Commit to a technology when you feel the time is right and stay there. Of course, the RIAA is doing what it can to change formats every couple of years to move units of back catalog. It's one of the many reasons they hate open documentation formats as much as Microsoft does. I love that bit in Men In Black. Agent K (Tommy Lee Jones) holds up a tiny metallic disc and says "This fellow here is going to replace the CD. Just means I'm going to have to buy the White Album again." Heh. > How many parts from once "state of the art" machines, now lumbering > dinosaurs, are filling holes around the world? And it was our fault for making machines out of materials that didn't break down properly and couldn't be reconstituted into other things. But the fact is that most of the computers since the PC explosion are perfectly servicable workstations for most purposes and organizations exist to get those machines into the hands of people that can use them. See our town's contribution, Free Geek. > >God forbid you should overtax your system while burning a CD and end up > >with a plastic plated mylar coaster. > > Of maybe the hundred or so CD-R's I've burned for myself and friends, > I don't think this has happened more than once or twice. It hasn't happened to me since my first few, either. But that still accounts for probably tens of thousands of discs wasted. J. - -- _______________________________________________ Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 17:50:48 -0400 From: Ken Weingold Subject: Re: iPod Announced On Wed, Oct 24, 2001, Capuchin wrote: > On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Ken Weingold wrote: > > Why landfill mess? The CDs are USED, not disposable. I don't > > understand this argument. > > The CDs are used for a while... but CDRs are fragile and a mix disk > becomes uninteresting after a while. I prefer something durable and > re-usable. That's all relative. I wouldn't just throw it away. I find old mixed tapes I made 10+ years ago and listen to them and really enjoy it, seeing where I was then. I would actually rather have that than a more dynamic setup. - -Ken ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 14:59:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: iPod Announced (3% RH) On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Tom Clark wrote: > I didn't see that, but it's entirely possible. I think you're likely > to see WMA support before Ogg, but you never know. Right, access control before quality. > Do any commercial players support Ogg? You mean hardware devices? I've never seen one. But Stewart's right about the superiority to MP3 in probably every way EXCEPT broad application support; sounds better, compresses better, no patent licensing nonsense. > > You gonna make this happen, Tom? Start a sourceforge project, maybe? > As soon as my current employer will expense one for me. You know, > "research". Excellent. > If the MP3 player/hard drive factor appeals to anyone, you can check > out the new Rio One. It's a 32meg mp3 player with a SmartMedia card > slot for expansion. It's relatively cheap ($99) because it's built > with a standard USB mass storage chipset, thus it shows up on your > desktop (or in /dev/sda, Jeme) as a hard disk! Neat! And I already have SmartMedia cards for my camera. That sounds like a real boon to me. > Ob. Robyn Content: How does the title of "Lysander" relate to the > lyrics? Discuss... I don't know that I've ever even considered that. Hmm... > -tc, bummed about missing the Butthole Surfers in SF next week because I > have to go to a breast feeding class! I was going to say something last time you were up here, but I didn't want to embarrass you. J. - -- _______________________________________________ Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:03:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: iPod Announced On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Ken Weingold wrote: > That's all relative. I wouldn't just throw it away. I find old mixed > tapes I made 10+ years ago and listen to them and really enjoy it, > seeing where I was then. I've never had a CDR last five years. They're way too fragile. > I would actually rather have that than a more dynamic setup. Unless the more dynamic setup allowed you to keep listings of arrangements without actually storing the music, and then loaded the music dynamically from shares worldwide on demand? J. - -- _______________________________________________ Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:09:05 -0400 From: Ken Weingold Subject: Re: iPod Announced On Wed, Oct 24, 2001, Capuchin wrote: > I've never had a CDR last five years. They're way too fragile. Does Samsonite send their luggage to you for testing? ;-) > Unless the more dynamic setup allowed you to keep listings of arrangements > without actually storing the music, and then loaded the music dynamically > from shares worldwide on demand? That would be cool. I'm sure the music industry would have a field day with that one! - -Ken ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:12:38 -0700 From: Tom Clark Subject: Re: iPod Announced on 10/24/01 3:09 PM, Ken Weingold at hazmat@hellrot.org wrote: > On Wed, Oct 24, 2001, Capuchin wrote: > >> Unless the more dynamic setup allowed you to keep listings of arrangements >> without actually storing the music, and then loaded the music dynamically >> from shares worldwide on demand? > > That would be cool. I'm sure the music industry would have a field > day with that one! They already did; they bankrupted mp3.com! - -tc ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:44:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: iPod Announced On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Ken Weingold wrote: > On Wed, Oct 24, 2001, Capuchin wrote: > > I've never had a CDR last five years. They're way too fragile. > Does Samsonite send their luggage to you for testing? ;-) Yeah, that was me in the old commercials. Didn't you recognize me on Fegfotos? > > Unless the more dynamic setup allowed you to keep listings of > > arrangements without actually storing the music, and then loaded the > > music dynamically from shares worldwide on demand? > > That would be cool. Yes, it would be. And it's totally possible. > I'm sure the music industry would have a field day with that one! They're too busy protecting their outmoded business models (and expressing their need for CONTROL CONTROL CONTROL) to let the world progress beyond their petty desires. If the buggy-whip manufacturers had been as powerful as the RIAA and the blacksmithing union was the MPAA behemoth, we'd all be riding horses today. Hell, it might even be mandatory. J. - -- _______________________________________________ Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:32:24 +1300 From: grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan) Subject: Re: new website >Well, of course its marvelous, fun, intelligent and interestingly >warped(sorry James, but we do -expect- that of you;-) but what I want to >know is: > >How come it starts with a Dante and not a Hitchcock quote? > >Huh, huh? > >BTW--Ive only had time to look over the artwork, the essay on aesthetic >preferences and the notes section but ... >I am utterly impressed. And even better, the material is evocative and >sparks off all sorts of ideas. Great stuff. >Everyone go see. many thanks for the nice comments! I did consider other quotes, but thought D.A.'s one worked best, all things considered. And only 2 broken links, 7 misnamed gifs and 743 typos... :I James PS - reap: Bertie Mee (no, US fegs, don't worry, you've almost certainly not heard of him. But as someone who liven in north London in 1971, respect is due) James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand. =-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= -=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- You talk to me as if from a distance -.-=-.- And I reply with impressions chosen from another time =-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-. (Brian Eno - "By this River") ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 22:48:06 -0400 From: Ken Weingold Subject: Re: iPod Announced On Wed, Oct 24, 2001, Capuchin wrote: > > Does Samsonite send their luggage to you for testing? ;-) > > Yeah, that was me in the old commercials. Didn't you recognize me on > Fegfotos? What, the gorilla? > > > Unless the more dynamic setup allowed you to keep listings of > > > arrangements without actually storing the music, and then loaded the > > > music dynamically from shares worldwide on demand? > > > > That would be cool. > > Yes, it would be. And it's totally possible. I wouldn't trust it. With things like Napster or Morpheus, you seem to be at the mercy of people being connected at the time you want something, at best. Half the time you try and download something either the connection sucks or it is "remotely queued". Most of what I would want this for is to dump my own stuff onto it, in abundance, but on one medium, i.e. one CD. - -Ken ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 21:13:31 -0700 From: "Russ Reynolds" Subject: RH music on "commercial" Okay, tecnically not a commercial, but some sort of public television promo or PSA. I just caught the tail end of it on Channel 54 here in the Bay Area (KTEH), I think it was a promo for the KTEH art auction, something like that. I was too busy trying to figure out what that familiar sounding music I was hearing was, and by the time I realized it was the intro to "Sinister But She Was Happy" I had little time left to read the message. I must find out who's responsible for that spot and send them a lovely fruit basket or something. - -rUss ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 22:55:18 -0700 From: "Voodoo Ergonomics" Subject: Haunted by vivid and humiliating dreams well, i tried for nearly a week to let this go. but there's just too much wrong with it. i'm aware quail's post wasn't intended for this list. but it did end up here, and i presume most of us read it. as always, i hope nobody takes any of this personally. and i apologise if the absence of context has caused me to misread any of your arguments, quail. and i'm afraid i don't have time to make what will probably be the scattershot nature of these responses more well thought-out. and for that too, i apologise (and in fact, that's in large measure been the source of my reluctance to reply at all). i mean, it's almost impossible to find the words -- principally because i've repeated them so many times before now. we kill a million iraqis, 5,000 per month to this very day. we fund the death squads throughout latin america. we send $1.3 billion dollars and "advisors" to colombia. we subsidise apartheid in the occupied territories. we shoot off depleted uranium and drop cluster bombs in serbia and iraq. and on and on and on. up to this very minute, when every aid agency on the scene in afghanistan is pleading with us to stop the bombing; or, having already ordered adjoining countries to cut off food aid, and prevented the autumn crop planting with the bombing, 5-7 million people will starve to death, beginning when winter hits in a few weeks. what it sounds like you're really saying, then, is that violence against *americans* is not acceptable. i know that sounds harsh. but simply saying that you don't support some (or perhaps any) of these policies and leaving it at that is a form of acceptance, is it not? if in your opinion september 11 justifies the united states bombing a country, killing millions of innocent civilians, and toppling a government; and you would not at the same time consider an iraqi (just to pick one of the more blatant examples) bombardment and invasion of the united states justified; then you're engaging in doublethink of (considering the stakes) the severest magnitude. (and note that it's not actually an analogous comparison, as the united states has directly attacked iraq, while afghanistan has not directly attacked the united states.) bin laden has stated many times over that the reason he turned against us was the continued military presence in saudi arabia since the gulf war (breaking a u.s. promise). the other two principle complaints are the continuing iraq sanctions, and u.s. support (alone in the world, one might add) of the israeli military occupation. bin laden even repeated it on the day the bombing started: u.s. citizens will not feel secure until palestinians do. however much they may despise western culture, they didn't appear to want our whole state to be destroyed any more on september 11 than they did when they were in our employ. all they *really* want is for the "infidels" to get out of the middle east. if we did so, it appears quite likely the terrorist attacks against "american interests" would terminate very quickly. and we *should* do so, not so much because it would massively deescalate the current situation (although that'd be incentive enough, in a sane world), but because u.s. policy and presence in the region is completely immoral and largely illegal. as it was on september 10. see for a much more eloquent discussion. (although fisk stops short of saying that if the united states would butt the fuck out altogether and let the people of the region run their own affairs, things would be very, very different.) there was nothing resembling a civil war. the division between north and south was an artificial division, promoted by the united states. it was supposed to have been temporary, as we all know, but the united states would not allow the unifying election demanded by the geneva accords. even so, we invaded SOUTH vietnam, placing a large percentage of SOUTH vietnamese in concentration camps, bombing the fuck out of SOUTH vietnam, defoliating the country, and propping up the only faction in the country with no popular support whatever. when the united states found that it had more than it bargained for with the heroic struggle of the SOUTH vietnamese against the u.s. attack, it spilled the war over into north vietnam, laos, and cambodia with yet more depraved carpet bombings -- AFTER WHICH the first nva forces appeared in south vietnam. because it's now turned against us. but the threat was created, by us, in afghanistan, to whack the soviet union. we recruited the bin laden-ites (for lack of a better term). we funded them. we trained them. we gave them their mission. does that justify september 11? of course not. but can we at least *acknowledge* it? can we at least admit that maybe it's not such a great idea to flood a region with weapons, and use repressive dictatorships, and murderous, drug-running thugs to keep the populations in line? so what the fuck are we doing there? what the fuck business is it of ours to control the oil? . you'll have to scroll down a bit to get to the relevant parts. but i heartily recommend doing so. in fact, i could not possibly recommend highly enough purchasing the interviews from which this excerpt is taken -- as well as ahmad's 1998 lecture "Terrorism: Theirs and Ours" -- all of which i've been re-listening to lately (i'd found myself wishing he were still alive right now, and decided this was the next best thing). . see also "America's Pipe Dream" at . in other words, we don't care about justice, only vengeance. we'll support the fundamentalist muslim regime in saudi arabia. we'll support saddam and the taliban when it suits our needs. we'll support the fundamentalist israeli regime. we'll support the genocidal turkish and indonesian regimes. we'll sit back and watch the russian destruction of chechnya. we'll renew china's mfn status. but when "they" bomb us worse than anyone else in our history ever has, we'll starve millions of people to death to teach "them" a lesson: violence against america is not acceptable. anwyay, we've apparently been planning an attack upon afghanistan for several months' time. . not too terribly surprising. the question was never *if* w. would get to fire off his fucking war toys, but when. i would have guessed colombia or iraq as w.'s first shooting war. but afghanistan would have made sense as well. no, of course not. we just subsidised the french effort in the indochina war to the tune of 80% for kicks. except the ones we approve of (including, as mentioned, those based in washington, d.c.). <(4) promoting our modern, democratic capitalist way of life.> again, if we're speaking orwell. and again, as if it's any of our fucking business. quail, this is not only wholly incorrect, it's incredibly racist. yes, they "like" it so much that the populations of the region are kept quiescent through the use of the "arab facade" (in the words of lord curzon) of dictatorial regimes subsidised and armed by the u.s.. developing democratic traditions, far from "self"-annihilating, have been annihilated by outside forces -- usually with the support of the united states. think mossadegh in iran. think taraki in afghanistan. think kurdistan. think chechnya. think indonesia. well, if they're so fucking patriotic, why don't they supply the weapons at cost? . . will there be kent state style repressions? much to early to say. you're certainly correct that there's not much active protest of the war so far. in fact, as usual, the peace movement is currently hamstrung by sectarian bickering. but remember, there was no early protesting of vietnam, either (in fact, none at all). kent state was 16 years after dienbienphu. so, we'll see what happens if the peace movement finally gets its shit together. you're one of the few people who think so. even the state department acknowledges that the military response greatly *increases* the probability of further terrorist actions against america. how would presenting the evidence the administration says it has of bin laden's guilt have led to more american dead? how would agreeing to try bin laden in a third country have led to more american dead? it's the terrible fact if you indiscriminately drop bombs from several thousand feet in the air. it's the terrible fact if you *intentionally* target civilian infrastructure. (there's a possibility, i suppose, that we haven't yet done so in afghanistan. but the u.s. openly admits having done so in iraq and serbia.) it's the terrible fact if you shoot off depleted uranium and cluster bombs. it's also an explicit violation of the geneva convention. and it's the terrible fact that george w. bush is a war criminal. (of course, he already was, for his repeating bombing of iraq. but he's now gone above and beyond the call.) that makes two of us. but given the u.s. track record, what do you think are the chances? is it above 0%? and as long as i'm here (and not likely to resurface again soon), there were a few clips that i'd saved, and never got around to replying to. there were many more that i *didn't* save, for better or worse. (notably posts by edward and chris g. concerning israel/palestine, by max concerning the dropping of the bomb, by ken w. (i think it was) extolling bush's speech of sep. 20th, and eb's inane "extremist reductionism" comments.) i'll try to be as brief as i possibly can. by the way, some may be amused to discover that i've already been labeled a terrorist -- in print, no less. . well, i suspect it's not of much comfort to the victims. but, point taken. <(though Michael's post specified the last 20 years).> my mistake. i had missed that. he was democratically elected, in possibly the most-observed election in third world history. the general consensus among observers was that the election was much freer than any u.s. election. that was *after* we'd engineered his toppling, in 1991. and, crucially, after the lavalas had been completely destroyed. and after aristide had accepted imf-style "medicine" as a precondition for his return. but it's not within the united states' jurisdiction to unilaterally intervene in the affairs of other nations. so it *has* always been wrong, so far as i can see -- regardless the merits of the targeted state. further, has there been even one example of u.s. intervention *improving* the lives of those living in the targeted states? i can't think of one. as for castro, i'm certainly not a fan. but the fact remains that even *with* the dictatorial nature of the regime, and despite the embargo and the forty-year war conducted against cuba by the united states, cubans have the highest standard of living in the region -- the rest of which is dominated by the united states. hell, i might call it "vaguely democratic" as it stands. i recall you supporting the balkan war at the time. but even in retrospect? korea was SERIOUSLY fucked up all the way around. rather than get into it, i'll just recommend bruce cumings' two books. as i'd been discussing with ferris offlist before the shit hit the fan, the only possible justification for u.s. entry into world war ii would have been for us to have simultaneously renounced imperialism. which, of course, did not happen. <(Out of curiosity, are there any leftist anti-American movements that you don't support, or, in past cases, do not think were good at the time?)> most of them, probably. i'm very cynical these days. just because most people are *not* well aware of them -- and because that's the driving force of israeli policy. if you say so. ironically enough, i had more less decided that it *wasn't* the case that the u.s. had anything to do with it, when within a few weeks, six or seven people brought it up to me, out of the blue. right now, i just don't know what to think. except that i find it very curious that: warnings to the secret service have been cofirmed; security at the world trade center was stepped up in july; prominent persons were told to stay out of the air on september 11; within hours the feds were knocking at the doors of ISPs, demanding to install carnivore systems, and a new "anti-terrorism" bill was rushed through congress; within days bush had secured a $40 billion blank check, and begun deploying troops; a few weeks before september 11, bush acknowledged that he couldn't get at social security, unless there were either a war or a depression; within a week robert zoeller had issued his fast-track-trade-authority-as-weapon-against-terrorism proclamation, and that a bill granting same is already pending before the house. much of the left press is calling september 11 a "gift" to the ultra-right. maybe they're right. but it still smells fishy to me. i don't know how many times i'll have to repeat this. but here's another go at it. as u.s. citizens (most of us), we're most responsible to expose the lies and combat the evils of the united states. is it such a difficult concept to grasp? search the archives if you will for anything even resembling the beliefs you've attributed to me here. there's a transcription of a recent (october 18th) chomsky lecture at , if anyone's interested. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V10 #406 ********************************