From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V10 #354 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Saturday, September 15 2001 Volume 10 : Number 354 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Clean OK [grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan)] Re: militarization takes coordination ["victorian squid" ] Re: hmm... [Jim Davies ] rewards in heaven ["jbranscombe@compuserve.com" ] Robyn's view...? ["jbranscombe@compuserve.com" ] Re: rewards in heaven ["Sweet & Tender Hooligan" ] Re: rewards in heaven ["Maximilian Lang" ] We'll Go Forward From This Moment ["Maximilian Lang" ] Separation of church and state (was Re: rewards in heaven) [Capuchin ] Re: hey rube [Brian Cully ] Re: rewards in heaven ["Maximilian Lang" ] Candles, candles, candles [Eb ] Re: rewards in heaven [Capuchin ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 14:15:27 +1200 From: grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan) Subject: Clean OK In the wake of the Deni Bonet message, I thought I'd pass on to the list that David Kilgour has emailed a friend of mine (who is music reporter on the local newspaper) to say that the Clean are all OK - they were in a hotel about half a mile from the WTC. The gig they are involved with at the Bowery ballroom is apparently to go ahead (but with a couple of the acts unable to get to it), but it will now be a charity fundraiser for the fire service. James James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand. =-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= -=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- You talk to me as if from a distance -.-=-.- And I reply with impressions chosen from another time =-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-. (Brian Eno - "By this River") ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 19:20:19 -0700 From: "victorian squid" Subject: Re: militarization takes coordination On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:57:22 Christopher Gross wrote: >all of whom were Americans). And if there was some big conspiracy to whip >up hatred, wouldn't they be smart enough to have their fake footage show >our likely targets, eg Taliban members, instead of Palestinians? I realize that pointing this out makes me part of The Conspiracy, but in the interest of fairness I feel compelled to remark that I also saw footage of Palestinian peace vigils taking place outside the US embassy. I saw this footage not once but several times and on more than one major news outlet. Much was made of it, in fact. It was also remarked several times that the "celebration" consisted of a smaller number of people than you might have guessed from the footage. Yes, on mainstream American news outlets. loveonya, susan more interested in reading than joining the political arguments, but did feel the need to jump in on this one point. also wanted to say I loved Quail's story about the NRA hat guy /and that's a relurk/ Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:43:36 -0700 From: "victorian squid" Subject: FWD: Eat Out Against Prejudice (also Chicago Vigil) (I wish I had thought of this. Make a small statement against prejudice and eat some good foods at the same time, I'm up for it. Portlandians who have recommendations for Arab restaurants and delis, please mail me or post if you would. TIA! Also, Chicagoans might want to know about the vigil on Saturday, 5:30-7 pm at UIC, at the grassy plaza located behind the library and lecture centers at Harrison and Halsted streets. UIC/Halsted is the closest El stop) Hi folks, There's a small growing movement afoot to make it a point of patronizing arab-american-owned restaurants and other small businesses in the aftermath of this crisis, to help counteract the anti-arab hysteria that is building, and to help counteract the business losses that these people are going to face here in the US from the prejudice of many. So, tonight would be a good night to go out to your favorite falafel /taboulleh / hummus /baba ghanooj/dolma /baklava joint, or to your favorite Afghani restaurant (aushak, pumpkin turnovers...) if you are lucky enough to have one near you. Pass it 'round! Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:35:55 +1200 From: grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan) Subject: [none] A few years ago I decided to keep my diary on disk (a big mistake. I lost almost all of it during the big disk-crash of '98). But this section survived: >Wonder what "generation millennium"'s defining JFK moment will be? The >baby boomers remember what they were doing when Kennedy was shot, for the >Generation Xers it was John Lennon. Presumably for older generations other >events held similar nexus. If it is a generational thing, perhaps there is >one such point every 20 years or so: the declaration of war (for the US, >Pearl Harbour), the 1918 armistice, the death of Victoria... And in 2001? Well, I guess I know now. James James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand. =-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= -=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- You talk to me as if from a distance -.-=-.- And I reply with impressions chosen from another time =-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-. (Brian Eno - "By this River") ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 22:16:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: FWD: Eat Out Against Prejudice (also Chicago Vigil) On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, victorian squid wrote: > I wish I had thought of this. I DID think of this. But I forgot to drum up any kind of support because my life is falling to shambles right now. (And before you say anything like "you got it EASY compared to folks whose family...", let me say that I agree with you, but pain is relative and you just can't compare like that. And I'm absolutely positive that the stress and sadness of this tragedy are at least exacerbating (if not downright stimulating) the problems.) So I didn't do anything tonight but sit right here and fall asleep. > Make a small statement against prejudice and eat some good foods at > the same time, I'm up for it. Portlandians who have recommendations > for Arab restaurants and delis, please mail me or post if you would. > TIA! I was thinking of going to Al-Amir. It's fantastic. But that's hardly the only option. Tomorrow? J. - -- _______________________________________________ Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 23:50:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Viv Lyon Subject: Portland vigil On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, victorian squid wrote: > Also, Chicagoans might want to know about the vigil on Saturday, 5:30-7 pm at UIC, > at the grassy plaza located behind the library and lecture centers at Harrison and > Halsted streets. UIC/Halsted is the closest El stop) Portlanders (and there's such a significant number on the list, I thought it would be appropriate to note this) might want to know that there's going to be a vigil and peace procession on Sunday, starting in the south park blocks and proceeding to Pioneer Square, at noon. I was putting up posters and handing out fliers, and got a very good response. Of course, this was in uber-progressive Southeast, so that's really no surprise and doesn't convey the general mood of Portland. Vivien ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 11:55:53 +0100 (BST) From: Jim Davies Subject: Re: hmm... From someone else... forwarded without Nick's express permission (he's presumably asleep somewhere) but I can't imagine that he would mind... he's slightly more English than I am... and it shows... x Jim Subject: New York Update Still a strange feeling on the streets here, though I am quite surprised by how many people you see out in bars at night. I am still homeless, and am not likely to return to my appartment before Sunday. So far, I have slept on some friends' couches and spent a night in the campus gym, which has become an impromptu shelter area, spirit of the Blitz and all that. During the day, I spend my time on the Net, reading or watching CNN. I have my old Wilson sports bag with me which contains two jumpers, a towel and a book. I grabbed my passport too as a precaution. Watching the recovery process, you get an idea of how much respect New Yorkers have for Giuliani. If anyone comes across as Presidential it's him, not the Texan dork. You may have read that they were claiming that the plane that hit the Pentagon was intended for the White House. That sounds like bullshit to me. It hit the Pentagon because they wanted to hit the Pentagon. They also said that the plane that crashed into the ground in Pennsylvania was headed for Camp David or Air Force One. The former is plausible, the latter, again, looks like bullshit. What, they were just going to cruise around the air for hours and hours in the vague hope that they might bump into the President's plane? I suspect the purpose of this disinformation is to compound the nature of the atrocity to clear the ground for any retaliation. When you talk to people, you try to get away from what happened. Inevitably, however, the conversation always comes back to it. This is not helped by the fact that all American bars have TVs. Whereas in the UK these would only be used to show Sport, here they are on all the time for news and entertainment too. You could cynically say that the coverage of this fits into both those categories. On Wednesday night, there was a report that the Empire State Building had been evacuated. For about half an hour, everyone in the bar I was in watched spellbound as the TV station that was on kept a live image of the New York skyline in its top right corner, ready for the moment when it would fall too. It was somewhat of an anti-climax when it turned out to be a false alarm. As I write, the girl in the terminal next to me has just broken down in tears after reading the confirmed and unconfirmed list of one of the banks in the hit area. Myself and the guy on the other side have just performed the usual ineffectual male efforts to console her. I am tempted to point out to Americans that their country has sponsored terrorism in Palestine and inflicted a state of permanent want on the innocent citizens of Iraq. These are valid arguments, if only to put the situation in its proper perspective, though do not validate anything that has happened. But I don't think that it would get through, and if you came across the wrong sort you might leave with a bloody nose. Have a good weekend. Nick ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:15:08 -0400 From: "jbranscombe@compuserve.com" Subject: rewards in heaven I have to disagree with Eclipse on Steve's posting of that secular and humanists' society declaration. With the sound of a thousand axes being ground, I find it odd that she should have singled this one out. There's a good article by Richard Dawkins in The Guardian this morning about the religious mentality in its extremer forms. Seems fairly obvious to me that those who think they're bound for glory and benison and 72 virgin brides in an after-life will be much more prepared to undertake suicide missions. Especially if they've been brain-washed into believing that their world, nay, universe-view is exclusively superior to someone else's. In spite of many fair-minded ecumenical efforts, this is what religions generally claim. Of course, there are political movements which are predicated on their own sense of superiority and self-righteousness, but I think that religion often exacerbates these problems I remember seeing a documentary about the first A-bomb drops. The surviving crew members revisited Hiroshima, and, to a man, said that they didn't regret dropping those bombs as it was God's will. Maybe it was their way of rationalising (or more accurately sublimating) the horror of what they did, but I still found it chilling to see them saying grace at a meal, after bluffly stating they'd drop the bombs again if asked. And, by the way, what happened to the separation of Church and State in America? It's all God, God, God with Bush. As it was with Raygun...I for one don't feel happy when the man with the finger on the trigger believes in 'rapture' and the sorting of the wheat from the chaff when the Big One blows. But that's probably because I'm a poor, godless sinner... jmbc Thomas Paine - 'My religion is humanity and my country is the world' ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:18:12 -0400 From: "jbranscombe@compuserve.com" Subject: terrorism Charles Walker said... >a terrorist is a terrorist< Except when they're a freedom fighter, of course... jmbc - who thinks the current lot are terrorists... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:24:48 -0400 From: "jbranscombe@compuserve.com" Subject: Robyn's view...? Given RH's well-documented distaste for Dubya *and* organised religion, I wonder what kinds of reference, if any, he'll make tonight? Godders, you're our Kate Adie in there... jmbc ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:50:28 -0500 From: steve Subject: Re: rewards in heaven On Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 09:15 AM, jbranscombe@compuserve.com wrote: > And, by the way, what happened to the separation of Church and State in > America? The religious right, which gave Bush maybe 40 percent of his vote, doesn't believe in it. If fact, they think it's a lie imposed on this Great Christian Nation by the people Falwell and Roberts were attacking the other day. > It's all God, God, God with Bush. That's all there is to him. Until age 40 he was fucked up on drugs and booze, then he got fucked up on the lord. I wouldn't care, except that he's a member of a family that thinks it has a dynastic right to rule this country. ...I for one don't feel happy when the man with the finger on the trigger believes > in 'rapture' and the sorting of the wheat from the chaff when the Big > One blows. George hasn't told us whether he's pre-trib or post-trib, probably because that's not the kind of thing you talk about in public. Might not matter in any case. BTW, the phrase "tactical nuclear weapons" has started to pop up relating to the pending military action in Afghanistan. > But that's probably because I'm a poor, godless sinner... Well, at least you'll be able to hang with Paine, Franklin, and Jefferson while you're burning for eternity. And that's just from the colonies. - - Steve __________ President Bush met privately with top officials from the Salvation Army in May to discuss his "faith-based" initiative while the White House was reviewing a request from the charity for a regulation protecting it from local workplace nondiscrimination laws based on sexual orientation. - Dana Milbank, Washington Post ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 11:44:54 -0500 From: "Sweet & Tender Hooligan" Subject: Re: rewards in heaven > > And, by the way, what happened to the separation of > > Church and State in America? > > The religious right, which gave Bush maybe 40 percent > of his vote, doesn't believe in it. And why should they? (Incidentally, ain't it weird when Congress opens session with prayer? I don't get it) > If fact, they think it's a lie imposed on this > Great Christian Nation Well, if you mean to imply that it's constitutional, that /is/ a lie. On the other hand, those who believe this is a Christian Nation - or that it was ever intended to be - are every bit as full of shit. > I wouldn't care, except that he's a member of a family > that thinks it has a dynastic right to rule this country. Nothing is more irritating than people who presume to know what other people think (and - surprise! - the opposition always seems to think /bad/ things!) I don't like Bush. I wish he hadn't won the election. But stop using your own intolerance and weakness as an excuse to piss on the guy. Whether you agree with his politics or not, he's not Satan (any more than you are or I am) and at the moment he's got the weight of the world on his shoulders. Stop stabbing your countryman in the back for, I dunno, a week, at least. For the record, I wish the "religious right" would, as a political entity, fuck off. Nevertheless, ideological intolerance is reprehensible no matter /who/ is getting mocked, so as long as you continue to used phrases like "fucked up on the Lord", you'll have to forego feeling morally superior and settle for just being an ass like Falwell or Robertson or anyone else. endofline, s&th cirhsein@yahoo.com all that i have, all that i hold all that is wrong all that i feel for or trust in or love all that is gone -cure ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 12:49:01 -0400 From: "Maximilian Lang" Subject: Re: rewards in heaven >I remember seeing a documentary about the first A-bomb drops. The surviving >crew members revisited Hiroshima, and, to a man, said that they didn't >regret dropping those bombs as it was God's will. Maybe it was their way of >rationalising (or more accurately sublimating) the horror of what they did, >but I still found it chilling to see them saying grace at a meal, after >bluffly stating they'd drop the bombs again if asked. > You must keep in mind the fact that the Japanese would have fought forever, literally. The estimates for American losses if the war continued would be over half a million. It is a shame and no one knew quite how devastating it would be. But, under the circumstances it may have been the only option at the time. We may have still been fighting them now. Max _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 13:04:11 -0400 From: "Maximilian Lang" Subject: We'll Go Forward From This Moment I heard this on the radio this morning and thought some of you would appreciate it. Max http://miami.com/herald/special/news/worldtrade/digdocs/008039.htm _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 14:57:32 -0400 From: "Maximilian Lang" Subject: The Soft Boys show Hi, Anybody out in Fegland who attended the show today happen to record it? If so I would love to set up a trade for a copy. I know this is a bit early, but I would like to look forward to something positive and, lol, I hope my politics don't stop you from doing so. Max np: Captain Beefheart - Tropical Hot Dog Night _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 12:32:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Separation of church and state (was Re: rewards in heaven) On Sat, 15 Sep 2001, Sweet & Tender Hooligan wrote: > Well, if you mean to imply that it's constitutional, that /is/ a lie. Well, I read "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" as a clear separation statement. That says to me that no religious institution shall be supported by the federal government. I think the dual meaning of "establishment" was intentional: Both the work to establish, or set in stable form, and an institution or property. Funds allocated by Congress to the Department of Defense, an executive organization, cannot be used for religious purpose because that would mean Congress had something something respecting an establishment of religion. I understand there are more narrow interpretations of this, but when it comes to the Bill of Rights, I'm always for the most broad interpretation. (That's why I believe freedom of the press supercedes copyright and Larry Ellison should be able to buy a fully loaded F-16 instead of the stripped-down version. Also, I believe the 14th Amendment needs to be replaced with a more broad equal rights amendment that specifically restricts that protection to individuals.) > On the other hand, those who believe this is a Christian Nation - or > that it was ever intended to be - are every bit as full of shit. Ayup. > Nevertheless, ideological intolerance is reprehensible no matter /who/ > is getting mocked, so as long as you continue to used phrases like > "fucked up on the Lord", you'll have to forego feeling morally > superior and settle for just being an ass like Falwell or Robertson or > anyone else. Well, I agree with the sentiment, but I think there's a difference between someone who is religious and someone who is "fucked up on the Lord". I'm not saying I believe Steve sees this distinction like I do, but I do see it. There are people that have their religion and it serves their purpose and helps with their life and that's all well and good. And there are people who have been so beaten that their clutch on religion has replaced all other forms of reason. That's what I'd call "fucked up". J. - -- _______________________________________________ Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 12:45:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: rewards in heaven On Sat, 15 Sep 2001, Maximilian Lang wrote: > You must keep in mind the fact that the Japanese would have fought > forever, literally. That's logistically impossible and politically improbable. Japan is an island nation. Even before Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Japan was running out of resources. Now, they might have fought until every scrap of steel was sunk around their coastline, but they didn't even have the resources to begin any new production or mining operations. > The estimates for American losses if the war continued would be over > half a million. Versus how many Japanese dying under the A-bomb and the cancers and poisoning of the next thirty years? > It is a shame and no one knew quite how devastating it would be. But, > under the circumstances it may have been the only option at the time. No, it was a show of force. It was the MOST BRAZEN option at the time, not the most prudent and certainly not the ONLY option. > We may have still been fighting them now. Stop and think about it. That's two generations later. J. - -- _______________________________________________ Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 15:40:40 -0400 From: Brian Cully Subject: Re: hey rube On Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 04:25:40PM -0400, Thomas, Ferris wrote: > Pacifism is a nice ideal. It's also one that's entirely inappropriate under > the circumstances. Any sign of retaliatory weakness on our part will only > open the floodgates to the responsible parties. The ability to orchestrate > and carry out any attack on a perceived enemy without fear of reprisal is a > powerful motivator. Why do people think that terrorism will ever stop? If we do nothing but rebuild what was lost and get on with our lives then we will be percieved as weak and it will continue. If we fight them then they will have yet more "reasons" under their belt to justify future terrorism. It will continue regardless. This is not the work of right-thinking people. This is the work of crazed psychopaths using the term "religion" as an excuse to satisfy their bloodlust. We have not been an innocent nation, and I don't think anyone is claiming us to have been. That does not give anyone the right to do what has just been done. Thousands of innocent civilian lives have just been claimed in the name of "justice." That is wrong no matter how you slice it - and, again, I don't think anyone on this list is disputing that. But the question arises as to what we should do now. I care not for the motives of such soul-less criminals. Regardless of our past or future action, they will continue to find motivations. Their motivations are nothing more than palp rationalisations to commit horrible atrocities, and giving creedence to them is wrong. Yes, we should definately look at our foreign policy, but make no mistake - that is not what caused this. "Fixing" it will not prevent it in the future. We cannot stop terrorism. It is a civilian action that can only have its growth retarded to the point where this kind of thing will hopefully not happen again for a long long time. We cannot fight terrorists. They are like the ant in the yard. We can fight the governments that allow those ants to breed. Those that give them safe harbour. Those that condone their actions through their inaction. We can send the message, across the world, that America will not tolerate terrorism. By extension, all freedom-loving people of the world will not tolerate terrorism. Terrorism is a violation of all of the rights of all of us to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and as such it must be fought. For once, I agree with Mr. Bush - fighting the governments that harbour terrorists is the proper course of action to make sure that in the future no government will harbour them, and lacking such harbour their growth will be retarded. It will not be stopped. It cannot be stopped. That is not the point. - -bjc ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 15:57:19 -0400 From: "Maximilian Lang" Subject: Re: rewards in heaven Dude, if you look at the history of the nation from any further from the left you WILL fall off the planet. You are suscribing western values and rational to vastly different cultures. You act like terrorist have some sort of demands, I don't recall any demands before this incident, do you? Do you have any idea how vicious the Japanese were? They were so incredibly sadistic it's unbelievable. This is a culuture where suicide is preferable to defeat. Kamakazie pilots were much like these terrorists death was an honor, even more so than real victory. I never ever said that it was right(and it you would bother to learn your history you would find that it was an agonizing decision for Truman) and I'm sorry that so many people lost their lives. They should have thouht about that before they attacked Pearl Harbor. Max >>On Sat, 15 Sep 2001, Maximilian Lang wrote: > > You must keep in mind the fact that the Japanese would have fought > > forever, literally. > >That's logistically impossible and politically improbable. > >Japan is an island nation. Even before Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Japan was >running out of resources. > >Now, they might have fought until every scrap of steel was sunk around >their coastline, but they didn't even have the resources to begin any new >production or mining operations. > > > The estimates for American losses if the war continued would be over > > half a million. > >Versus how many Japanese dying under the A-bomb and the cancers and >poisoning of the next thirty years? > > > It is a shame and no one knew quite how devastating it would be. But, > > under the circumstances it may have been the only option at the time. > >No, it was a show of force. It was the MOST BRAZEN option at the time, >not the most prudent and certainly not the ONLY option. > > > We may have still been fighting them now. > >Stop and think about it. That's two generations later. > >J. >-- >_______________________________________________ > >Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 13:07:58 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Candles, candles, candles Just curious...what sorts of "displays" did folks find in their immediate neighborhoods, last night? I went out to eat shortly before 8 pm, and was surprised to stumble upon a solemn, silent circle of 75-80 candle-holding people, only a couple of blocks away in a small park. That's ordinarily a pretty sleepy, suburban tract where people live quietly behind closed doors. As I continued on that drive, I saw one block with 30-40 candles in paper bags lining the sides of the road, plus about three other small groups (mostly pre-high-schoolers!) gathered at street corners, waving flags, hooting and holding up signs which said "HONK FOR AMERICA." A whole lot of honking going on, too. Even a few hundred feet beyond the "HONK" signs. The candle circle fit the designated "Day of Mourning" theme -- the other stuff, I don't know. I have mixed feelings. Nice to see the patriotism, but it smelt a bit too much of exuberant War Fever. I've never smelt the odor that powerfully before. On the drive back, I found the circle people gone, but they had left all their candles burning in a row on the park's cement greeting sign. Later, I noticed that CNN had switched their banner from "Attack on America" to "America's New War." Speaking of CNN and religion, a couple of days ago, I saw anchor Judy Woodruff slip in a personal word of advice about turning to God in this dire time, and found this remarkably unprofessional and inappropriate for someone in her position. Eb ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 13:24:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: rewards in heaven On Sat, 15 Sep 2001, Maximilian Lang wrote: > Dude, if you look at the history of the nation from any further from > the left you WILL fall off the planet. You are suscribing western > values and rational to vastly different cultures. You act like > terrorist have some sort of demands, I don't recall any demands before > this incident, do you? I have no idea what you're refering to, here. The above reads like a total non-sequitor. Let me know what I'm missing. > Do you have any idea how vicious the Japanese were? They were so > incredibly sadistic it's unbelievable. This is a culuture where > suicide is preferable to defeat. Kamakazie pilots were much like these > terrorists death was an honor, even more so than real victory. Right. But they still need planes... and boats... and fuel... and guns. Japan was running out of all of those things. They couldn't have sustained anything like an effective war after another few years TOPS. > I never ever said that it was right(and it you would bother to learn > your history you would find that it was an agonizing decision for > Truman) and I'm sorry that so many people lost their lives. You said it was the ONLY option... which is the pragmatist's "right". > They should have thouht about that before they attacked Pearl Harbor. So, an argument gets out of hand (or whatever) and someone throws a punch. Is the recipient of that punch justified in pulling out a gun and killing the other person? There's such a thing as a measured response. And I don't think the Japanese military COULD do ANYTHING that justified the total annihilation of two cities full of civilians. J. - -- _______________________________________________ Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V10 #354 ********************************