From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V10 #351 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Friday, September 14 2001 Volume 10 : Number 351 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: hey rube ["Thomas, Ferris" ] RE: militarization takes coordination ["Poole, R. Edward" ] Re: what do you think? [Ken Ostrander ] Farrakhan and US Arabs [The Great Quail ] Re: hmm... [Ken Ostrander ] RE: hmm... ["Bachman, Michael" ] RE: hey rube ["Kenneth Johnson" ] A few more thoughts.... [The Great Quail ] RE: Farrakhan and US Arabs ["Poole, R. Edward" ] RE: hey rube ["Thomas, Ferris" ] RE: hey rube [Aaron Mandel ] RE: fegmaniax-digest V10 #350 ["Walker, Charles" ] RE: hey rube ["Thomas, Ferris" ] RE: hey rube [Viv Lyon ] RE: Farrakhan and US Arabs ["Bachman, Michael" ] symbols and brains ["Walker, Charles" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:41:38 -0400 From: "Thomas, Ferris" Subject: RE: hey rube It's not a matter of cleverness. It's a matter of proper, swift, decisive action. > -----Original Message----- > From: Aaron Mandel [mailto:aaron@eecs.harvard.edu] > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 3:40 PM > To: ghoul world > Subject: RE: hey rube > > > On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Thomas, Ferris wrote: > > > Now's really not the time to cast doubt on the competancy of the > > current administration. > > I have bad news for you: the rest of the world already knows Bush is a > goober. I don't think we're going to fool them by pretending > everything he > does now is clever. > > aaron ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:52:13 -0400 From: "Poole, R. Edward" Subject: RE: militarization takes coordination >>from Jewish World Review Sept. 12, 2001 >> We need to wipe out not only >> bin Laden, but his...comic book collection >I suspect quite a few people on the list will strenuously object to such an >extreme, historically irresponsible act of terrorism. It's not like he has first edition HUPs or a signed copy of Like a Velvet Glove Cast In Iron. It's well known he's into pulpy fanboy stuff, so no great loss. >Eb, gritting his teeth as he watches Dubya's chances for a second term >circumstantially rising Remember, Bush v1.0 had a 91% approval rating 9 months before the election... it's the economy, remember? ============================================================================This e-mail message and any attached files are confidential and are intended solely for the use of the addressee(s) named above. This communication may contain material protected by attorney-client, work product, or other privileges. If you are not the intended recipient or person responsible for delivering this confidential communication to the intended recipient, you have received this communication in error, and any review, use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, copying, or other distribution of this e-mail message and any attached files is strictly prohibited. If you have received this confidential communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail message and permanently delete the original message. To reply to our email administrator directly, send an email to postmaster@dsmo.com Dickstein Shapiro Morin & Oshinsky LLP http://www.legalinnovators.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:48:14 -0400 From: "Thomas, Ferris" Subject: RE: hey rube Ok, Schiavo, Free speech: I don't think anyone's looking to impune free speech here. Voting rights: Who the fuck's threatening voting rights? The right to association: You bet. Associating with known terrorist faction members or their allies should cast you into suspicion. The Brits have been doing it for years with the Antiterrrorism act and I don't have much of a problem with it. The obvious problems with Leftists (and Steve, you're screaming leftist) is that as a group you've got an incredibly poor grasp of time concepts. Earlier in the year the Left displayed this failing in economics (e.g. blaming Bush for a downtrend that was well established before he took office, blaming the tax cut for surplus reductions before any of it had actually gone into effect). Now a terrorist plot that experts estimate took 5+ years to plan is Bush's fault? It could have happened under Al Gore's watch or (and if it had to have happened I wish it would have) under Clinton's. What a ever-loving JOKE it would be to see Clinton try and cope with this situation by any other means than weaping before a flag. For fuck's sake. The military and intelligence communities were eviscerated under Clinton's watch with his blessing, and he kowtowed to every dictatorial piece of shit on the planet; if anyone is to blame for this crap it's him. > -----Original Message----- > From: steve [mailto:steveschiavo@mac.com] > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 3:43 PM > To: fegmaniax@smoe.org > Subject: Re: hey rube > > > On Friday, September 14, 2001, at 12:57 PM, Thomas, Ferris wrote: > > > I, for one, would willing to forgo some civil liberties in > exchange for > > heightened national and local security against any such attacks. > > > OK Thomas, make us a list of civil liberties you'd like to give up. > Free speech? The right to vote? The right of association? > Let's hear > it. > > Make no mistake, the people on the wrong side of the culture war will > try to use this incident to enhance their power. The drumbeat has > already started. It's such a joke to hear George W. Bush > talking about > freedom and democracy, as he doesn't really believe in either. > > > And where's the liberal media? I see that the Clinton News > Network is > running a waving American flag and a banner proclaiming > "America's New > War". > > > - Steve > > __________ > The Bush administration, facing opposition in Congress over > proposals to > open more of Alaska and the Gulf of Mexico to oil drilling, > is exploring > ways to speed oil development on federal lands in the West without > congressional approval. - Mark Jaffe, Bloomberg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:58:10 -0400 From: Ken Ostrander Subject: Re: what do you think? >>i really hope that this incident will end the decadence > >"Decadence"? yes, decadence. as in the roman empire. dec7a7dence Pronunciation: 'de-k&-d&n(t)s also di-'kA- Function: noun Etymology: Middle French, from Medieval Latin decadentia, from Late Latin decadent-, decadens, present participle of decadere to fall, sink -- more at DECAY 1 : the process of becoming decadent : the quality or state of being decadent 2 : a period of decline synonym see DETERIORATION if you're still confused, think SUV's and the decreasing fuel efficiency of motor vehicles in general with zero regard for alternative energy (you can't sell sunlight or wind), corporate welfare and the lack of a living wage for the little guy, big budget movies that suck, an increasing chasm between the very rich and everyone else, individual portions with even more wasteful packaging, taft-hartley, the increasing domination of health care by religious institutions and insurance companies, gentrification and the endangered species known as the small business, exorbitant price tags for military projects that don't work, fast track, copyrighting genetics and words, impunity from the FDA for the pharmaceutical industry and for geneticly modified food, the money-driven farce that our electoral process has become with campaign finance and no discussion about internal runoff voting, free trade agreements that ignore environmental and labor concerns, the control of media by fewer and fewer corporate interests, and weapons manufacturing (and training) that feeds the very violence that we saw on tuesday. ken "give me convenience or give me death" the kenster np love & theft ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:57:06 -0700 From: The Great Quail Subject: Farrakhan and US Arabs James writes, >hm. I write a scathing reply to something pro-American and I don't get >flamed. In fact, most of the list's comments seem to support the same views >as me to some extent or another. I know that this list is hardly your >typical cross-section of the US, but that is intriguing nonetheless. I thought your reply was a reasonable refutation of a one-sided piece. While as an American my heart swells reading Sinclair's words, as a critical thinker, I certainly understand it was hardly multi-dimensional! In other words, I am glad that someone posted to the List a reminder that we are *not* the Great Satan, and I am glad that someone posted a reminder that we are also not the world's messiah as well. >Perhaps I'm terminally naive in the following, and I never thought I'd hear >myself say this, but one person who could seriously help the US right now >is Louis Farrakhan. If he spoke out, representing the US's Moslem >population, No, no, no! I am sorry James, but Farrakhan does NOT represent the US Moslem population, He represents nothing more than the Nation of Islam, which have been discredited by Islamic authorities years ago. Farrakhan is an anti-Semitic cultist with some good intentions; he is not the spokesperson for United Staes Moslems. I am not saying that a few words of peace from him wouldn't be helpful right now, though, but he is not an Arab, he is an American black, and if anyone needs support right now, it's American Arabs of all religious persuasions. >Generosity, I'll grant you. And compassion, to a limited extent (how much >compassion is being shown to Middle Eastern nationals living in the US at >the moment? Do they feel it's safe for them to venture onto the streets?). A very good question. I live near Atlantic Avenue, which has a very high concentration of Middle Eastern immigrants. needless to say, they are a bit anxious right now -- and certainly, a few assholes have been sending them hate vibes. But my feeling is that far more people are supporting them, and trying to spread words of peace and understanding. (hell, even Colin Powell has something to say about that!) Here's a surreal example : We have this neighbor named Dominic, a read redneck crank. He voted for pat Buchanan, he bitches constantly about liberals, and he's a died-in-the-cloth NRA man. He will bend your ears for hours with his paranoid fantasies about how the United States can be invaded. Yesterday he told me angrily that the "kid on the corner" had received a few insults. The "kid" is actually a 24 year old Arab guy who runs the local bodega. Dom was so pissed off at this, he took an American flag and an NRA ball-cap to the "Arab kid" and said if he wears the cap, "dumb assholes will leave him the fuck alone." I was actually touched -- I mean, this was the only way Dom knew how to more or less welcome the Arab guy as an American. Trust me, coming from Central PA as I do, I recognized this as a genuine act of kindness! Later I talked to the bodega guy, and we laughed about Dom; but he said that people have been "pretty cool" so far. I can only hope cooler and more compassionate heads can prevail. - --Quail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:01:38 -0400 From: Ken Ostrander Subject: Re: hmm... >p.s. if it's any comfort, i can be mean and arbitrary. yesterday, i >posted to the tori amos mailing list i moderate saying that it was >okay to discuss this stuff, but reneged on that decision this morning >since the thread there quickly devolved into flames and name-calling >and the level of the discussion was remarkably ill-informed. that would never happen on...say...the kate bush list. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:08:00 -0400 From: "Bachman, Michael" Subject: RE: hmm... - -----Original Message----- From: Ken Ostrander [mailto:kenster@MIT.EDU] Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 4:02 PM To: fegmaniax Subject: Re: hmm... >p.s. if it's any comfort, i can be mean and arbitrary. yesterday, i >posted to the tori amos mailing list i moderate saying that it was >okay to discuss this stuff, but reneged on that decision this morning >since the thread there quickly devolved into flames and name-calling >and the level of the discussion was remarkably ill-informed. >that would never happen on...say...the kate bush list. This list is the best for voicing our opinions that I have found. The care and well wishes we have for one another, despite some diffs makes this list and the people on it great. I forgot to wish all the NY fegs my joy that you are all safe and sound. You were in my prayers. Michael B. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:08:14 -0700 From: "Kenneth Johnson" Subject: RE: hey rube Michael B writes: > Chamberlain, came crawling from Munich, with one piece of paper, he held >for the camera. "Peace in our time, oh thank you Herr Hitler". Tell that >to the Polish, tell that to the Jews. > > Should we start calling you Mr. Chamberlain? The terrorists have an >agenda >against us just as the Nazi's had plans for Europe. They must be stopped by >military means. We must be prepared to go at this full force, not half >assed. >The better prepared we are, the less costly it will be for us. We are not >talking about some distant war here. They are a threat to us hear and now, >and we must act as a coalition of free nations to stamp them out. Don't >you get it? I'm not sure where you get your Chamberlin reference from. I never once said we shouldn't do something about this, I never said that military action wasn't the way to go. It is inevitable and looming in all its ugly splendor. I said it is wrong-headed and evil and I will stand by that as the bombs drop. I will concede that some military operation will be nescessary to end the threat. I think that is the sad truth. It will suck. AND It WILL make matters worse. Violence begets the like until someone says enough and STOPS. Or until there is only one cowboy standing (not likely given the size and variations of the peoples on Earth) but don't you worry, you'll get your war. Being prepared was one thing we were not. Going at it half assed won't be a problem with the largest arsenal in the world at our disposal. All of this doesn't mean any of my other pacifist friends worldwide and I need to stop being critical of the current government and their actions. (That was what I said. You twisted, added words or something.) Don't focus solely on diving in and kicking butt. You may cheer as we go at it full force and punish the bad men. I will mourn as much as I have since 9/11. I won't even get into the U.S. role in world terrorism up to this point or its responsibilty for bin Laden and his crew (should they prove to be behind this...what is it 90% sure now?). No insensitive words about "just desserts" that have rightfully offended so many on the list, but do yourself a favor and wake up to the TOTAL reality of the situation we now find ourselves in. I do get it... all too well thank you very much. _Kenneth _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:14:45 -0700 From: The Great Quail Subject: A few more thoughts.... I stand with the Fegs who think that this is a time to keep a wary eye on the government. While I for one feel that a directed military response is called for, I think we need to be very, very circumspect. There is a lot of ground between releasing white doves and leveling a country. Hell, the *last* think I'd want to do is inflict this sort of agony on innocent Afghans out of a blind sense of revenge. But that's it -- we can't be blind. I belive we must flex or military might with direction, competence, and lucidity. I agree that we must destroy bin Laden, and all other terrorist groups that threaten US security. And I pray that countries such as Pakistan and Afghanistan realize that bin Laden has awoken the "sleeping giant," and have the sense to examine themselves and ask if harboring terrorists is worth the cost of becoming an enemy of the United States. This is going to be a very scary few years. We all know that power, terror, and violence can escalate; we also know that the social side effects can be hideous. And by this, I mean empty jingoism, reduced liberties, and fanaticism of our own. If we make the decision to unleash the dogs of war, we must make sure they are well-trained, and remain under our control. Even so, more innocents will die, and that saddens me. With this in mind, we as a nation must keep a steady eye on what our leaders are doing. If we decide to go to war, we cannot let this get out of control, as it did in Vietnam. I am quite scared, even though I feel our cause is just. In other words, while I do support a military response, I also think we must keep a constant vigil on both our so-called leaders, and the freedoms we ourselves decide to forego. I understand that some of you will completely disagree, and you will think that a military response is just evil upon evil. And while I may disagree with you, I honestly hope that you make your voice heard, and that you are not viewed as un-American by the war-struck masses. I am quite afraid of the blind patriotism this horrible tragedy will certainly engender. I hope we are all more reasonable and aware. - --Quail PS: Eddie, Drew, and Ken -- *really.* The very fact that you even entertain the notion that the attack was US sponsored speaks far more from your loathing of the US than it does from any sense of logical reasoning. Eddie, you especially know the US is a capitalist state -- why take out her own financial district? Jesus, any number of other civilian targets could have enraged Americans and yet not harmed us financially! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:20:18 -0400 From: "Poole, R. Edward" Subject: RE: Farrakhan and US Arabs >>Generosity, I'll grant you. And compassion, to a limited extent (how much >>compassion is being shown to Middle Eastern nationals living in the US at >>the moment? Do they feel it's safe for them to venture onto the streets?). >A very good question. One of my closest friends from college is Indian (as in the subcontinent) and he has been harassed at work -- "do all you muslims believe in killing American civilians?" and the like. His response -- "what are you talking about, I'm Hindu and don't believe in killing cows, let alone people!" He tells me "Now's not a good time to be brown, these people can't make the distinctions." Another Iraqi friend said simply: "This girl's keepin' her Arab ass off the street this week!" She lives in rural Maryland, so I do not doubt the wisdom of her choice. The street vendor in front of my building, an Iranian, wasn't at work Wednesday or Thursday (he's back today, but I haven't asked how he's been received yet). It's not a pretty picture, but let's hope it calms down soon. ============================================================================This e-mail message and any attached files are confidential and are intended solely for the use of the addressee(s) named above. This communication may contain material protected by attorney-client, work product, or other privileges. If you are not the intended recipient or person responsible for delivering this confidential communication to the intended recipient, you have received this communication in error, and any review, use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, copying, or other distribution of this e-mail message and any attached files is strictly prohibited. If you have received this confidential communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail message and permanently delete the original message. To reply to our email administrator directly, send an email to postmaster@dsmo.com Dickstein Shapiro Morin & Oshinsky LLP http://www.legalinnovators.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:25:40 -0400 From: "Thomas, Ferris" Subject: RE: hey rube > Violence begets the like until someone says > enough and STOPS. This is true. However I don't think you would soon see religious fanatics throw up their arms and say, "all right, you've got us. We'll stop." Pacifism is a nice ideal. It's also one that's entirely inappropriate under the circumstances. Any sign of retaliatory weakness on our part will only open the floodgates to the responsible parties. The ability to orchestrate and carry out any attack on a perceived enemy without fear of reprisal is a powerful motivator. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:37:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: RE: hey rube On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Thomas, Ferris wrote: > It's not a matter of cleverness. It's a matter of proper, swift, > decisive action. I don't even know what you're talking about here -- you said this is no time to cast doubt on the administration's competency. I responded that it's already in doubt, and a lack of objection from Americans isn't going to bluff anyone in the rest of the world into thinking Bush is more competent than he is. Your statement above seems like a total non sequitur. a ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:44:12 -0700 From: "Walker, Charles" Subject: RE: fegmaniax-digest V10 #350 >they have a office stocked with people >who know how to make war. Of that there is no doubt. chas in LA replies: this is true, but my question is, do they have an ofice stocked with people who know how to END a war?? a big distinction. http://www.theweeklywalker.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:57:20 -0400 From: "Thomas, Ferris" Subject: RE: hey rube > On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Thomas, Ferris wrote: > > > It's not a matter of cleverness. It's a matter of proper, swift, > > decisive action. > > I don't even know what you're talking about here -- you said > this is no > time to cast doubt on the administration's competency. I'm going to try and put this as carefully as I can. In times of disaster like this it's heard that we need to rally and support one another. Put petty (partisan) grumblings aside, pitch in and help. Perhaps using terms like "baffled" and "goofy child-President" is better kept for another time. Your saying that nothing can prove that "...Bush is more competent than he is" doesn't hold much water. From the beginning he's acted after consulting his cabinet and advisors--not quite the lone gunman some seem to fear. Is taking the time to consult a sign of weakness? I don't think so. I'll credit him with having the foresight to not necessarily defer decisions to others, but to have full command of the options available and benefits and detractors to each. Does a former govenor from Texas with a background in oil have a firm grasp on international terrorists? Not in the first nine months of his term in office. Neither did a former govenor from Arkansas with a background in adultery after eight years in office. Please. Take a second to look at the supporting cabinet. We're paired right now with probably the most competant Vice President and Secretary of State the country's had in the past fifty years. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:06:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Viv Lyon Subject: RE: hey rube On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Thomas, Ferris wrote: > The right to association: You bet. Associating with known terrorist faction > members or their allies should cast you into suspicion. The Brits have been > doing it for years with the Antiterrrorism act and I don't have much of a > problem with it. Hm. So if I go over to my friend Jeff's house, and Rex happens to be there (he is a long-time tree-sitter and forest activist), and Rex I chat for awhile, then guess what? I'm associating with someone the governement suspects of being allied with a terrorist organization. He doesn't, of course, but the FBI assume that all forest activists are involved with the Earth Liberation Front. Does that therefore make me a suspicious character, worthy of investigation? According to you, it does. And yet, I am NOT in sympathy with the ELF and do NOT condone their tactics. It all depends on your definition of terrorist. My family have been known to go to anti-abortion rallies. Have they been associating with terrorists? According to the FBI, maybe. Both anti-abortion groups and the ELF were explicitly singled out by the FBI as warranting stepped-up investigation. I really am of the opinion that such people as myself and my family are potential future victims of an FBI witch-hunt. So you see that people who (and I guess you'll have to take my word that I and my family are pacifistic) have never engaged in terrorism nor plotted to or assisted those planning such things could easily fall under the most unwelcome and unfair scrutiny. Such scrutiny often involves such things as the (sometimes permanent) seizure of one's computer and car, the ransacking of one's abode, and significant emotional distress. All because I hang out at a place frequented by forest activists. All because my parents believe abortion is wrong, and possibly know some pro-life activists. Vivien ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:04:47 -0400 From: "Bachman, Michael" Subject: RE: Farrakhan and US Arabs - -----Original Message----- From: Poole, R. Edward [mailto:PooleR@dsmo.com] Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 4:20 PM To: 'The Great Quail'; fegmaniax@smoe.org Subject: RE: Farrakhan and US Arabs >>Generosity, I'll grant you. And compassion, to a limited extent (how much >>compassion is being shown to Middle Eastern nationals living in the US at >>the moment? Do they feel it's safe for them to venture onto the streets?). >A very good question. >One of my closest friends from college is Indian (as in the subcontinent) >and he has been harassed at work -- "do all you muslims believe in killing >American civilians?" and the like. His response -- "what are you talking >about, I'm Hindu and don't believe in killing cows, let alone people!" He >tells me "Now's not a good time to be brown, these people can't make the >distinctions." >Another Iraqi friend said simply: "This girl's keepin' her Arab ass off the >street this week!" She lives in rural Maryland, so I do not doubt the >wisdom of her choice. The street vendor in front of my building, an >Iranian, wasn't at work Wednesday or Thursday (he's back today, but I >haven't asked how he's been received yet). >It's not a pretty picture, but let's hope it calms down soon. We have had some incidents in Detroit already. Dearborn has a very large Arab population that also has seen some anti-Arab incidents. I am with you Ed, I hope this dumb shit goes away. Thank God we have grown up in the last 60 years, we don't need anymore internment camps. We all need to pull together as Americans, but we still need to be aware of potential terrorists living among us. Michael ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:05:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Eclipse Subject: Re: militarization takes coordination i think Jello Biafra said it best: "look anywhere long enough and you'll find a conspiracy" that said, while some of this could be seen as suspicious, i think a great deal of it is unconfirmed rumor (old footage of Palestinians), blind conjecture (Pearl Harbor), and amazing coincidence (the renovated Pentagon). i'm sure you've all seen by now the phony Nostradamus predictions going around, or the emails pointing out the coincidence between the hijacked flight numbers and the date of the attack. such coincidences abound in nature and all around us, but if you scrutinize them too hard, they become conspiracy.. not to say the below aren't all potentially interesting 'what ifs' in their own right! peacefully, Eclipse np: Bjork, Vespertine On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Andrew D. Simchik wrote: > - the use of old footage of Palestinians cheering to make it seem like they > were glorying over our losses > > - the fact that we had known about the attack on Pearl Harbor before it > happened, and that it was allowed to take place in order to get us into > the war (before my friend told me this last night I really had not been > aware of it -- I have no idea how true it is, but if so...) > > - the fact that no one has come forward to claim responsibility for the > attacks without later denying it > > - the alarming swiftness with which we've all been encouraged to volunteer > to give up civil liberties > > - the convenience with which we've found Arabs with flight training manuals > and the like > > - the fact that we trained bin Laden ourselves and used to use him to do our > dirty work > > - the fact that the wing of the Pentagon that was destroyed was being > renovated (true?) > > - supposedly the SF mayor received a warning not to travel to NYC on Monday > night -- that there was an "advisory" in effect - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Eclipse | eclipse@best.com If this is not what you expected, please alter your expectations. "i guess one person can make a difference - but most of the time, they probably shouldn't." - Marge Simpson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:06:04 -0700 From: "Walker, Charles" Subject: symbols and brains Mm-hmm. I've always been quizzical at people's overwhelming need to mourn through empty symbolism. "Candlelight vigils" have long been a pet peeve of mine. Really, do candles serve *any* useful purpose in our culture, at this point? chas in LA replies; IMO Americans are some of the most symbol/gesture loving people on the planet. why are such things as apologies the most important thing to victems of crime or corporate negligence? why is showing contrition for a crime so important to a jury - it'll carve a lot of years off of your sentence, you know. this is what a lot of right wingers ala the rush 'bimbaugh' crowd never can understand. they say 'if you look at intellectually and not emotionally...' that is there mistake. they forget that we are essentially an emotional bunch - not unintelligent but definitely unintellectual as a whole {individuals may vary, see your doctor if rash or coughing persists}. as a whole we LIKE to cry at movies, which is why we put up with dreck, we LIKE to see flags waving on CNN. emotions make us feel important, intellects tends to make us [them - the masses] feel small. again, there is a huge difference between being intelligent and being an intellectual. i consider myself intelligent - like most on this list are, i have a masters degree, but i do not consider myself an intellectual. that is i prefer to read the book than to dissect the book. actually i am a recovering intellectual, asi once loved tearing things to bits more than experiencing things. so in an odd way, though everyone loathes what is going on around them now, some are getting a kind of pleasure out of experiencing all of this - a genuine life experience as HORRIBLE as it is - is nonetheless capable of giving the pleasures of feeling. many would take feeling pain over feeling nothing, because it is at least SOMETHING. when i first saw the events of 9/11, i went on an incredible adrenaline rush that was , in a way, physically pleasureable. i felt guilty as hell for it, but there was this sensation that the ice had broken and that now gray WAS moving towards black and white - these feeling will subside in a week or two and we will be back to grays and bickering. this is how i try and understand why people do unreasonable things, like cutting themselves, even S&M stuff makes sense. personally i am getting a little tired of the hugging and shows of support just because it is so much SO soon! nobody has thoroughly processed all of this yet. that is the trouble of our modern age - trauma and the process of digesting it is outstripped by the speed of now now now technology. okay i've gone on enough , i guess i had to get that out, i hope no one is offended, cheeers ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V10 #351 ********************************